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Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: DonTom on August 25, 2019, 04:33:35 AM

Title: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on August 25, 2019, 04:33:35 AM
I had a very difficult time getting any of the CCS chargers to work with my bike at the  Elk Grove WalMart. More than one problem. First, credit cards are declined. Any of them, Even the WalMart Credit card. Then later the same credit card will be accepted in a minute that was just declined.

Now the bike and charge station each say "DC Initializing ". And then in a few more seconds, the machine says "Charging Error".

Big Pappa was there too and had the exact same problems with his bike. He somehow got a charger to work and after,  I also got one to work. I was just about ready to first call the service number on the machines, but I did not expect that to do any good and was expecting to have to call a tow truck.

We spent more time trying to get these chargers to work than we did waiting for them to charge when they finally did. And we have  no real clue what we did do when they finally did work.

I never have any problems using the EV-Go chargers. But WalMart doesn't use EV-Go, they use Electrify America.

Have others here had problems charging with CCS at WalMart?  Or are these problems just at the Elk Grove WalMart?

-Don-  Auburn, CA
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: BigPoppa on August 25, 2019, 05:02:58 AM
I also had problems with the CCS initialization on the Greenlots chargers on my SS9. Like DonTom said, we did eventually get the Electrify America CCS chargers to work. The 2 times I had to use EVGo CCS charging it worked fine. I haven’t tried a Chargepoint CCS charger yet since the one at my job seems to broken 90% of the time.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on August 25, 2019, 09:41:59 AM
I also had problems with the CCS initialization on the Greenlots chargers on my SS9. Like DonTom said, we did eventually get the Electrify America CCS chargers to work. The 2 times I had to use EVGo CCS charging it worked fine. I haven’t tried a Chargepoint CCS charger yet since the one at my job seems to broken 90% of the time.
After I got back to Auburn, I decided I want to ride a bit more. That ride was too short.  So I picked up a few things I wanted to bring here and . . .

I had no issues charging anywhere, not even when I got home! I will put that story in the other thread in a few minutes. I am now over the 600 miles on my SS9. It will be more than 700 when I get back to Auburn. In fact, will probably be well over a thousand miles by then.

-Don- Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: HoodRichOG on August 25, 2019, 11:44:29 AM
Does EA not have their own network card or app like EVgo does?

Whenever I have a problem with credit card or RFID card on other networks I just use the app to start the charger.

Probably the best way to go.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on August 25, 2019, 12:27:39 PM
Does EA not have their own network card or app like EVgo does?

Whenever I have a problem with credit card or RFID card on other networks I just use the app to start the charger.
I have seen some GreenLots chargers (in Truckee, CA) that would only start with the app. Not even a phone call to them would work and neither would the Greenlots card.  They could not turn it on remotely, but the app could. BTW, it was NOT me who called them, but a woman who gave up trying to use the machine. I used the same Greenlots machine with my app. But my Greenlots card was not detected by the machine.

Now, back to WalMart . . .

So yeah, it could also make the difference with EA  as far as the payment not  being declined. But that was the least serious of the two problems. We could always get a  credit card to work in three or four or so tries. That was something I could tolerate. But after it accepted our payments and started to internalize the charge, that was the big problem. All but the two times we got it to work it said "charging error" on the machine. I was about ready to call for a tow truck. I spent more time trying to get any of the Wal-Mart chargers  to work than the time it took to charge to full.  And I was rather shocked that we could get them to work at all.

But I just checked into EA here (https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing?pType=retail), and it looks like they use an app, but not a card.

But I will get the app. Thanks.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: BigPoppa on August 25, 2019, 09:35:39 PM
I was really hoping to use the Greenlots CCS charger as an alternative to WalMart's Electrify America CCS chargers. Greenlots (at least the one not far from WalMart in ElkGrove) charges a $0.35 connection charge and ~$0.27/kWh rate which is significantly cheaper than EA's rate of a $1.00 connection charge plus $0.25/minute.

I'll take ~$5.00 charge fee vs ~$9.00 charge fee any day. Hopefully I can figure out the Greenlots CCS issue in the future.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on August 26, 2019, 05:45:08 AM
I was really hoping to use the Greenlots CCS charger as an alternative to WalMart's Electrify America CCS chargers. Greenlots (at least the one not far from WalMart in ElkGrove) charges a $0.35 connection charge and ~$0.27/kWh rate which is significantly cheaper than EA's rate of a $1.00 connection charge plus $0.25/minute.

I'll take ~$5.00 charge fee vs ~$9.00 charge fee any day. Hopefully I can figure out the Greenlots CCS issue in the future.
Today, I decided to take a risk and go to the Fernley Walmart. If those chargers didn't work, I would have to be towed back home. So here is what happened:

My credit card was accepted on the very first try. It also charged on the very first try. No playing around at all with anything. It was even easier to use than the EV-Go chargers which often time-out on me. This  EA Wal-Mart charger was  the easiest I have ever used.

So obviously, the chargers at El Grove have the problem. Not the other WalMarts.

BTW, the Fernley Walmart has NO J1772 at all (unlike Elk Grove which does have it). So I will not be able to take a Zero to Fernley, NV.

I have been riding this bike all day. It sure is a fun bike to ride!  I am way over my 600 miles. It will probably hit 1,000 miles by the time it gets back to Auburn. Then I will stop riding it and deal with Energica and the lost key problem. Looks like they will not find the master key so they will have to take the bike back and change the immobilizer. All at their expense.

BTW, the Walmart in Fernley charges a buck to use and then 25 cents per minute.  More expensive than gasoline, when it comes to motorcycles. So from there, I went to the Harley shop here in Reno and charged again for free. From there, I went to Carson City and did some riding around. Now I am back in Reno slow charging from my Tesla station and Tesla tap that gave me trouble a couple of weeks ago.

But when I did plug in my AC here today, using my Tesla-Tap, the bike again said "Initializing DC Charging" for a few seconds and then charged normally. Does your bike ever show a DC internalization message for a few seconds when you first charge with AC?

I got the same message as when it did not work, but now it works.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: BigPoppa on August 26, 2019, 08:29:52 AM
I don’t recall seeing a “DC Initialization” message when AC charging but I’ll try to check the display the next few times I charge up.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on August 26, 2019, 09:46:34 AM
I don’t recall seeing a “DC Initialization” message when AC charging but I’ll try to check the display the next few times I charge up.
I am thinking the message probably has something to do with the Tesla-Tap, but as long as everything works, it's not important, just curious.

Someday I will check for that message when I plug in a normal J-1772. In fact, I just now realized I can already do that at my house in Cold Springs Valley. But since I am now well over the 600 miles, I want to stop riding it except for taking the bike back to Auburn, sometime later in the week.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: RFlashman on August 27, 2019, 01:52:49 AM
The trick for Electrify America is to start the session first from the App. Once started, THEN plug it in to the Energica. If you plug it in, it will fail. Same general principle seems to apply to everyone else. Ignore the "plug in first" request and just start the session first, plug in second.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on August 27, 2019, 02:38:30 AM
The trick for Electrify America is to start the session first from the App. Once started, THEN plug it in to the Energica. If you plug it in, it will fail. Same general principle seems to apply to everyone else. Ignore the "plug in first" request and just start the session first, plug in second.
That's nice to know. But sometimes it's so sunny that I cannot even see the app running at 100% brightness unless there is nearby shade. I try to not use the app.

But yesterday at the WalMart  in Fernley, everything worked perfectly by following the instructions on the machine. No issue at all, on the very first try.

But the next time I am at the WalMart in Elk Grove, CA, if   it is still  flaky, I will use your instructions with the app.

Thanks!

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: 2014ZeroSR on August 27, 2019, 03:05:21 AM
The trick for Electrify America is to start the session first from the App. Once started, THEN plug it in to the Energica. If you plug it in, it will fail. Same general principle seems to apply to everyone else. Ignore the "plug in first" request and just start the session first, plug in second.

RFlashman - Thanks for the tip. I've struggled the few times I've used CCS and was sure there had to be a simple method to activate the charger vice calling customer service.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Electric Cowboy on August 27, 2019, 05:48:58 AM
Just confirmed EVGo had an outage yesterday with several stations using the verizon network.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on August 27, 2019, 09:32:22 AM
Just confirmed EVGo had an outage yesterday with several stations using the verizon network.
Does that mean the DC Chargers could not be used at all by any method for anybody?

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: RFlashman on August 28, 2019, 11:18:36 PM
Just confirmed EVGo had an outage yesterday with several stations using the verizon network.
Does that mean the DC Chargers could not be used at all by any method for anybody?

No, EVGo will allow RFID cars to work without network. It caches those sessions and they get billed to your account on a future connection. Hence why it is a smart move to get the RFID cards for EVERY network that supports them (Greenlots and EVGo). I don't have a ChargePoint card any more as their "phone RFID" works perfectly. Electrify America doesn't have cards yet, but they told me that is coming.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on August 29, 2019, 12:43:47 AM
No, EVGo will allow RFID cars to work without network. It caches those sessions and they get billed to your account on a future connection. Hence why it is a smart move to get the RFID cards for EVERY network that supports them (Greenlots and EVGo). I don't have a ChargePoint card any more as their "phone RFID" works perfectly. Electrify America doesn't have cards yet, but they told me that is coming.
I find my Chargepoint card to be very handy. I will take that over the phone any day.

BTW, even the new chargers at the Harley shop are Chargepoint.

I do have every card I can get. I even have the Blink's card for when I am in Tucson. I have not seen any of those charge stations in CA or NV.  I have the Apps also, but as a backup. For an example, the Greenlots charger I use in Truckee, CA will not detect their own card, but works fine with the GreenLots App.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Sklith on October 11, 2019, 01:06:41 PM
I charged at an EA station in they Atlanta metro area, and it cost me $9.25 to put in 2.7 kWh, they charged me at the 150 kW rate when it should have been the 75 kW one instead.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on October 11, 2019, 01:29:50 PM
I charged at an EA station in they Atlanta metro area, and it cost me $9.25 to put in 2.7 kWh, they charged me at the 150 kW rate when it should have been the 75 kW one instead.
The problem is shown right on their own screen. 25 cents per minute for 8 minutes doesn't add up to 8 bucks.

Anyway, did you call them? The number is shown on your photo, on top of the screen. They will correct it for you.

FWIW, I find the EA charge stations to be the most flaky of them all, but some of them do work perfectly, but those are not the norm.

-Don-   Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: NEW2elec on October 11, 2019, 07:51:51 PM
Those are the stations from VW.  I still question their true "commitment" to the whole EV sector. 
In the mid to long term those outrageous rates have to come down.  Thar's maybe 25 miles of range.
Assuming a 50 MPG ICE motorcycle and Atlanta gas prices that would be $1.25.
Even if the rate should have been cut in half to $4 that's just gouging.

Sklith, where did you get your Energica and which Walmart was this at?
I'm on the south side of ATL myself.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Sklith on October 11, 2019, 07:52:32 PM
The problem is shown right on their own screen. 25 cents per minute for 8 minutes doesn't add up to 8 bucks.

Anyway, did you call them? The number is shown on your photo, on top of the screen. They will correct it for you.

FWIW, I find the EA charge stations to be the most flaky of them all, but some of them do work perfectly, but those are not the norm.

-Don-   Reno, NV
I submitted a ticket thru their app, and they called me a day later asking what vehicle it was. I also told them I took a photo which clearly says it should be billing me at 25 cents per minute, and they asked me to email the photo to info@electrifyamerica.com with my case number, and I did. I don't plan on using EA again until they start billing by the kWh. I'll reply to this thread once I get my money back from them.

Luckily, there's plenty of other DC combo chargers here in GA which are either free or bill more fairly.

Sklith, where did you get your Energica and which Walmart was this at?
I'm on the south side of ATL myself.

It's not at Wal-Mart but at Best Buy off Barrett Parkway in Kennesaw.
800 Cobb Place Boulevard NW, Kennesaw, GA, 30144
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on October 11, 2019, 10:01:53 PM
Those are the stations from VW.  I still question their true "commitment" to the whole EV sector. 
In the mid to long term those outrageous rates have to come down.  Thar's maybe 25 miles of range.
Assuming a 50 MPG ICE motorcycle and Atlanta gas prices that would be $1.25.
Even if the rate should have been cut in half to $4 that's just gouging.

Sklith, where did you get your Energica and which Walmart was this at?
I'm on the south side of ATL myself.
The RFlashman trick (in reply #9 here) above has worked for me quite well so far with no hassles at all. I joined them for $4.00 per month, which gets rid of the $1.00 fee just to turn on the machine and also drops the price down to around 25% off per minute.  IIRC, they have three rangs of prices for KWH, but the 25KW of the Energica is at the lowest of minimum level, not really a good rate for us, but it beats running out of juice.

Joining them  requires me to use the EA app on my Smartphone, but it has solved all the problems for me, including having to use the credit card at the machine (which often gets declined when used direct at the machines in  at least the  Elk Grove Wal*Mart). So if those are the most common stations there, you may wanna consider joining them and using their app.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Sklith on October 13, 2019, 10:13:45 AM
NEW2elec, I didn't notice you asked me where I got my Ego until now. I got it from Euro Cycles of Orlando.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: NEW2elec on October 13, 2019, 07:24:27 PM
Ok thanks, I've seen listings for them on Cycle Trader in FL.  I thought maybe a GA dealer had picked them up when I wasn't looking.
You might be the only Ego owner in the state.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Sklith on October 14, 2019, 09:16:46 PM
It would be so nice if Energica decides to make a 6 kW AC charger for their bikes, that much power would be perfect during a trip to a restaurant. DC charging is nice but all the stations near me are priced per minute for 50-75 kW, and 20 kW into our bikes really makes it economically straining. I'm barely able to keep the cost of DC charging at parity with gasoline.

Edit: I've also visited 2 DCFC stations which were operational. This surprises me because I've supercharged Teslas for about 9k miles, and never encountered a single station out of order.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on October 15, 2019, 01:58:13 AM
It would be so nice if Energica decides to make a 6 kW AC charger for their bikes,
Or if the 20 KWH vaporware battery will be out by next year--and they let it charge at ~45 KW. I would prefer that.

I figure the 3.0 KW charging is just for night home charging and then the charge time makes no difference, in most cases.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Sklith on October 15, 2019, 02:35:06 AM
If they actually do come out with a 20 kWh battery, the 3 kW charger will feel very slow by that point.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on October 15, 2019, 08:29:10 AM
If they actually do come out with a 20 kWh battery, the 3 kW charger will feel very slow by that point.
Depends on how you look at it. It will be the same number of miles added per hour either way, it's just with the 20KW you will have almost twice as many miles to add.

Even if it takes more than a full night to charge, no problem. I have a 15 KW CCS charger at the Harley dealer down the road just a few miles from here.

What I would be more concerned with is  the CCS rate being more than the current 25 KW, so the fast charging to full will be almost twice as many miles added as now.  I figure a larger battery can handle  charge current in proportion to the KWH of the battery which will be almost twice as much. IOW, twice the miles in the same time charged while on the road.

But such will do no good when charging at the Cahrgepoints Harley uses. They can only do 15 KW max. Very low for CCS. But the Harley LiveWire charges at 12 KW, so it's enough for the LW.


-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Sklith on October 15, 2019, 09:16:11 AM
Having a slow AC charger definitely won’t be an issue when DC chargers become as ubiquitous as gas stations, for sure.  But in the mean time, it would be nice to have 6+ kW!

Do you have to pay to charge at 15 kW at the Harley dealership? If so, how much was it?

Edit: I checked PlugShare for the nearest Harley dealership near me with a fast charger set up, looks like it’s free, nice!
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on October 15, 2019, 11:10:18 AM
Having a slow AC charger definitely won’t be an issue when DC chargers become as ubiquitous as gas stations, for sure.  But in the mean time, it would be nice to have 6+ kW!
The OBCs are mostly for home charging, so I think they will stick around for a long time. By far, most charging is done at home with any EV.

Do you have to pay to charge at 15 kW at the Harley dealership? If so, how much was it?

Edit: I checked PlugShare for the nearest Harley dealership near me with a fast charger set up, looks like it’s free, nice!
For at least now, it's free here at the Reno HD dealer. But that could change after they have the LWs in. The Harley charger at the Rocklin HD shop is all connected and ready, but they keep it off and they will not turn it on until they receive the LWs--Or perhaps they want to sell one first and that could mean they never turn it on.

These HD chargers are Chargepoints. I was the very first person to use the one in Reno (I was told at the shop) , and I did check-in on Plugshare the same day.

I also checked in for  Rocklin on Plugshare, to say it's still not turned on.

Perhaps if they charge non-LW owners later will be up to the dealers.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 05, 2019, 11:19:26 PM
Do you have to pay to charge at 15 kW at the Harley dealership? If so, how much was it?
The Rocklin, CA Harley CCS charger is now on-line, although  they do NOT yet have the LiveWire.

 I used their CCS charger a couple of days ago. This one charged at 20KW:

Receipt    ROCKLINEV1 / DCFAST HOG    Rocklin, CA
   
Energy added    
4.40 kWh
      
4:17 PM-4:40 PM
22m 42s @ $0.00/hr    
$0.00
      
Total    $0.00

Perhaps they will not always be free. Perhaps they will put in a price for all except the LiveWire later. We just have to wait and see what happens.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
   
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Sklith on November 06, 2019, 12:19:49 AM
Do you have to pay to charge at 15 kW at the Harley dealership? If so, how much was it?
The Rocklin, CA Harley CCS charger is now on-line, although  they do NOT yet have the LiveWire.

 I used their CCS charger a couple of days ago. This one charged at 20KW:

Receipt    ROCKLINEV1 / DCFAST HOG    Rocklin, CA
   
Energy added    
4.40 kWh
      
4:17 PM-4:40 PM
22m 42s @ $0.00/hr    
$0.00
      
Total    $0.00

Perhaps they will not always be free. Perhaps they will put in a price for all except the LiveWire later. We just have to wait and see what happens.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

Why only a 5 kW charging speed overall, was it sitting a while after completing the charge?
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: MVetter on November 06, 2019, 12:51:58 AM
Are we reading the same thing? I'm showing he got about 4.5kWh in about 23 minutes. This would indicate closer to 12kW.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Sklith on November 06, 2019, 02:45:04 AM
You're right, bad math, I needed to get the fraction of an hour 22 min 42 seconds is first! What kW rating are these DCFC stations at H-D locations? I'd hope they're at least putting out 25 kW.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 06, 2019, 05:31:39 AM
You're right, bad math, I needed to get the fraction of an hour 22 min 42 seconds is first! What kW rating are these DCFC stations at H-D locations? I'd hope they're at least putting out 25 kW.
Nope. They are probably all either 15KW or 20 KW max  (max KW I got near the midrange of the battery charge <~50%>).

According to my bike at Reno HD, it charged at 15 KW.  However, my same bike charged at 20KW in Rocklin, CA HD.

15 KW makes more sense as the Livewire can only accept 12 KW. So I was very surprised to see the 20 KW in Rocklin.

Perhaps depends on how the dealers  set them up.

But I would not expect the CCS stations at Harley shops to do more than 15 KW, as that is still 3KW more than the LW can handle.

But we cannot complain. Both of these Charegpoint HD CCS chargers are free for us to use. At least for now.

On the way here from Auburn, my SS9 was charging mostly at 24KW. Sometimes as high as 26KW. Using EV-GO on I-80.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 06, 2019, 05:37:42 AM
Are we reading the same thing? I'm showing he got about 4.5kWh in about 23 minutes. This would indicate closer to 12kW.
As an average, yes. It charged at around 20KW in the beginning and down to about 1 or 2 KW near the end. I left it on for the full 100% charge so it slowed down quite a but near the end of the charge.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: MVetter on November 06, 2019, 05:40:33 AM

15 KW makes more sense as the Livewire can only accept 12 KW. So I was very surprised to see the 20 KW in Rocklin.

I haven't seen any actual use numbers from LiveWires charging, but I expect them to charge somewhere around 13-15kW. I know of two people who have taken delivery so I'll ask.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 06, 2019, 06:18:01 AM
I haven't seen any actual use numbers from LiveWires charging, but I expect them to charge somewhere around 13-15kW. I know of two people who have taken delivery so I'll ask.
I now cannot recall where I saw the 12 KW CCS charging spec for the Livewire. But now that I check, I find this (https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2019/07/14/2020-harley-davidson-livewire-review-23-fast-facts/):

Battery Maximum capacity: 24 kWh
DC fast charging time: 1.0 hours

Sure sounds like it can handle almost double that  12 KW charging. But I remember it saying it took TWO hours for a full charge to 100% elsewhere.  So now I am not sure about anything. And the LW really has a 24 KWH battery?

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: MVetter on November 06, 2019, 06:36:28 AM
No. The LiveWire has like a 13.7kWh battery.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 06, 2019, 06:53:54 AM
No. The LiveWire has like a 13.7kWh battery.
I wonder why I find different specs everywhere I look. I recall at first the LW was supposed to have only a 7KWH battery. Keeps on getting larger, but . . .

If the LW really had a 24 KWH battery and could charge in an hour, it would really be worth that 30K$ they are asking.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: MVetter on November 06, 2019, 07:15:17 AM
It most definitely doesn't. I think they advertised like 15.7kWh max and 13.4kWh nominal. In either case it's 60Ah in the low 200V range. Just high enough to use CCS.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 06, 2019, 01:06:56 PM
It most definitely doesn't. I think they advertised like 15.7kWh max and 13.4kWh nominal. In either case it's 60Ah in the low 200V range. Just high enough to use CCS.
This one here, (https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-technical-specifications/) I don't buy at all:

Lithium Ion, 12.8V , 24 Wh, 120 A

But now I find a couple of websites that say it has a 24 KWH battery. No, I mean 24 WH!

And  12.8 VDC? 

I guess we cannot believe much of anything with the LW from the websites.

Who writes these things? Doesn't anybody double check this stuff?

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: MVetter on November 06, 2019, 01:50:31 PM
That's the 12v battery. It runs the lights and stuff. Like a 12v battery on a gas bike or gas car. Instead of the DC-DC converter like Zero uses they actually put a second battery on it. If you scroll down on that page it will show you the H-D specific term "RESS" because they're too cool to call it a battery specs: 15.5kWh max, 13.6kWh nominal, which is almost exactly what I guess-remembered. Go me!~
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Crissa on November 06, 2019, 03:02:33 PM
The max the chargers go would be limited by the electrical utility as well as the charger setup.  It may be some are capped out by someone cheaping out on the needed panel amperage.

My neighbor works for PG&E, and he says they're notorious for being difficult to get power drops for electric car charging, even if the wires are available.  We've talked about how to set up charging since our parking area is by the utility but hundreds of feet away from our house panels.  He has Volt.

-Crissa
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 06, 2019, 08:53:47 PM
That's the 12v battery. It runs the lights and stuff. Like a 12v battery on a gas bike or gas car. Instead of the DC-DC converter like Zero uses they actually put a second battery on it. If you scroll down on that page it will show you the H-D specific term "RESS" because they're too cool to call it a battery specs: 15.5kWh max, 13.6kWh nominal, which is almost exactly what I guess-remembered. Go me!~
Then what does the "DC to DC conversion 450W at 14.2V" mean? It's on the same page.  Sounds like it means a DC to DC converter is used. But perhaps that means how they charge the  12 volt battery. Perhaps it needs 12 volts when not running so it uses both.

Still strange that they do not mention the main (motor) battery voltage  in the specs.

I know many EVs have a 12 volt battery instead of a DC to DC converter.  Such as my Tesla M3. Others (such as my Energica) use a 12.7 VDC tap off the main HV  battery.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: MVetter on November 06, 2019, 09:15:08 PM
They do mention it and I told you exactly where to find it
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Crilly on November 06, 2019, 09:19:10 PM
They all have a DC to DC converter to charge the 12 volt battery and supply power for the lights, dash, and solenoids that control the high voltage.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Crissa on November 06, 2019, 10:15:33 PM
DC to DC is inefficient and will come with (comparatively) narrow ranges of amperage for conversion; the bigger its capacity the bigger the waste at the low end. Whereas a battery can give you all or a trickle.  So having a smaller aux battery means skipping the base loss of the DC-DC circuit when using only a trickle.

-Crissa
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: reini on November 06, 2019, 10:55:16 PM
There will still be a DC-DC converter, as omething also has to charge the Aux battery....

Edit: I agree that a buffer battery is better than only having a converter, especially if you want to realize connectivity while the bike is off.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 06, 2019, 11:14:33 PM
DC to DC is inefficient and will come with (comparatively) narrow ranges of amperage for conversion; the bigger its capacity the bigger the waste at the low end.
Yes, but with many KWHs available, why be concerned with it's inefficiency at a fraction of an amp or whatever?

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 06, 2019, 11:19:45 PM
They do mention it and I told you exactly where to find it
Yeah, I found it in that link "15.5 kWh (13.6 kWh nominal) of battery; " But I would expect that to be in the "electrical" specs instead of only  the 12 volt battery.

But now I also see it listed under "RESS" whatever that means.

Anybody here know what "RESS" stands for?

Edit: Disregard, I found it in a web search "Rechargeable Energy Storage System".  I never heard that term before.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Crissa on November 06, 2019, 11:33:55 PM
Yes, but with many KWHs available, why be concerned with it's inefficiency at a fraction of an amp or whatever?
I suppose, but people would whine when they came back the next morning to see their battery had lost a few percent of power.  It would also insulate it from killing the main battery during shipping and storage.

-Crissa
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 07, 2019, 12:10:28 AM
I suppose, but people would whine when they came back the next morning to see their battery had lost a few percent of power.  It would also insulate it from killing the main battery during shipping and storage.
Zeros keep the DC to DC Converter off until the key is on. Likewise, I assume most EVs will only charge the 12 volt battery when keyed on, so it will be off also.

But I am not so sure about the Tesla. It looses quite a bit of juice from the main battery when the car is just sitting. Up to 1%  per day.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Crissa on November 07, 2019, 01:30:56 AM
Teslas do alot of off-key management in the background.  The % state of charge is also only a guess so it'll shift around from temperature and settling, too.  Batteries don't always drop voltage evenly as their cells discharge, there's a bit of friction to the flow.  So a shift in temperature will change the resistance which will hop up and down in steps at times.

I really wish I knew the math behind it.  And every battery configuration has its own quirks, and develops more through its lifetime of charge-discharge cycles.  My oldest lithium battery stopped holding a charge when it was twenty-five years old, but I also got out of practice of charging and discharging it (The original Game Boy had an optional lithium pack which I totally abused.)

So I really liked hearing about others' experiences!  Gives me more exercise for the brain muscles ^-^

-Crissa
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on November 07, 2019, 01:53:04 AM
Teslas do alot of off-key management in the background.
Yep. Especially when we consider it has 75 KWHs to play with.  Seems to draw down fast for 75 KWHs being available.

However, I also understand that a KWH is NOT always a KWH when a battery is involved. The KWH changes depending on load with batteries. Perhaps a lot less than 75KWH when the draw is only a half  amp or so.

-Don-  Reno, NV

Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: Crissa on November 07, 2019, 03:40:29 AM
There's also alot more mass.  The more individual cells means that each cell is losing power at the same step rate... Which is one of the reasons to avoid smaller cell sizes.  But in the matter of repair, assembly, and reliability under stress (failure conditions) more cells is currently better.

So many (unmoving) variables here ^-^

-Crissa
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: wavelet on November 08, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
No. The LiveWire has like a 13.7kWh battery.
I wonder why I find different specs everywhere I look. I recall at first the LW was supposed to have only a 7KWH battery. Keeps on getting larger, but . . .

If the LW really had a 24 KWH battery and could charge in an hour, it would really be worth that 30K$ they are asking.

-Don-  Reno, NV
As I recall, the initial concept bike had a small battery (7kWh sounds about right), just to demonstrate short rides.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: nicktulloh on December 10, 2019, 10:06:33 PM
I had a very difficult time getting any of the CCS chargers to work with my bike at the  Elk Grove WalMart. More than one problem. First, credit cards are declined. Any of them, Even the WalMart Credit card. Then later the same credit card will be accepted in a minute that was just declined.

Now the bike and charge station each say "DC Initializing ". And then in a few more seconds, the machine says "Charging Error".

Big Pappa was there too and had the exact same problems with his bike. He somehow got a charger to work and after,  I also got one to work. I was just about ready to first call the service number on the machines, but I did not expect that to do any good and was expecting to have to call a tow truck.

We spent more time trying to get these chargers to work than we did waiting for them to charge when they finally did. And we have  no real clue what we did do when they finally did work.

I never have any problems using the EV-Go chargers. But WalMart doesn't use EV-Go, they use Electrify America.

Have others here had problems charging with CCS at WalMart?  Or are these problems just at the Elk Grove WalMart?

-Don-  Auburn, CA


Please don't shop WalMart.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on January 19, 2020, 10:23:50 AM
The trick for Electrify America is to start the session first from the App. Once started, THEN plug it in to the Energica. If you plug it in, it will fail. Same general principle seems to apply to everyone else. Ignore the "plug in first" request and just start the session first, plug in second.
Yep, and today I found out why.

They updated the FW at several Wal*Marts and part of the update should  have been new instructions. But somehow the instructions were not changed to NOT plug in first. Many cars also are reporting the same problem.

The Wal*Mart chargers in Fernly, NV worked perfectly, plugging  in first, because that charger  was NOT yet updated. So if you should or should not plug in first depends on the charger firmware and can be inconsistent. They do NOT update them over the air, so they get updated on different dates. Perhaps by now, they are all updated with the  new instructions anyway. I have not checked the chargers at any Wal*Marts lately.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: BigPoppa on January 19, 2020, 08:35:51 PM
Please don't shop WalMart.

I personally avoid WalMart whenever possible. Not a fan of their corporate practices. I do use their CCS chargers from time to time since they tend to be the only CCS charger around that works in a given area. Even then, it’s only when I HAVE to get a fast charge.
Title: Re: WalMart CCS chargers
Post by: DonTom on January 19, 2020, 10:34:21 PM
I personally avoid WalMart whenever possible. Not a fan of their corporate practices. I do use their CCS chargers from time to time since they tend to be the only CCS charger around that works in a given area. Even then, it’s only when I HAVE to get a fast charge.
When I need a charge, I will not be picky about where I get it. But I am really talking about Electrify America Chargers, regardless of their location.

Anyway, the point was that at least for a while, if we should or should not plug in first depended on the location. But now we know to try both ways, if they still have not updated their instructions with the new firmware updates.

BTW, I leaned yesterday that these chargers can get very complicated with their FW changes.  The various EV companies, including Energica, have to deal with the  charging companies firmware changes often. A fix for one vehicle can cause another make to malfunction, such as main fuses blowing all over Europe by  one CCS charging company that would start the charge on Energica at way too many KWs for a few seconds and blow main battery  fuses, which led to Energica having a way to replace the fuse easily in the 21.5 KWH battery.

-Don-  Auburn, CA