ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: HoodRichOG on August 13, 2019, 05:35:14 AM
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Let me preface this by saying that I am not an EV hater. In fact, I am an early adopter. I bought my first EV in 2016 - a brand new Chevy Spark EV, and then I bought a new Tesla Model S soon thereafter. I definitely understand the merits of electric vehicles. I also live in Silicon Valley, pretty much dead center between the Lightning office in San Jose and the Zero factory Scotts Valley.
I've been an avid motorcyclist for over a decade, having owned many BMWs, Ducatis, a few Kawis, and Hondas and I usually buy a new bike every other year.
I commute a lot. My ride to the office is ~35 miles each way, more if I am visiting a client. So I need to have at least 100-mile range to comfortably get around. Not too much to ask, right? I decided that this was the year I will get an EV bike and started doing my research.
Seems like my choices were - Zero SR/F, Energica SS9, Harley Livewire, and a Lightning Strike preorder.
Zero SR/F
Specs are decent. It seems like with the upcoming charge tank the range is decent and I can probably get by with today's range. But then I realized that no Zeros come with DC fast charging? Is that a joke? It's like building a car in 2020 and having it only work with E85 gasoline.
What the hell was Zero thinking?
This means that I really can't venture outside of the immediate Bay Area, and if I'm low on a charge, I have to loiter around a Level 2 station waiting for this turd to charge. No thanks!
Then I went on to read about motor recommissioning and how the bike can literally accelerate suddenly to 160mph... Unbelievable that Zero would let this out of the factory doors, and even more unbelievable that recommissioning isn't done automatically somehow and needs a dealer + manufacturer service.
I guess they are following the Tesla way and not giving the customer any right to maintain or repair. I absolutely hate this about my Tesla, not to mention that the service is abysmal. Hard pass!
Energica SS9
Well, this bike does have the DC fast charging so it's actually a bit more usable. It means if I need to go further out, I can still quickly top off somewhere and be on my way. Nice!
Then I saw the range.... pretty much 65 miles on the freeway. WTF, really? That's not even enough for my commute. And then there is the literal elephant in the room, the weight! I get that it's fine once the bike is rolling, but not once in my life did I want the bike with the power and comfort of a naked bike and the weight of a Goldwing.
And then there are the oil changes and fluid changes. This bike actually needs more frequent service than my BMW. So by getting an Energica, I am basically inconveniencing myself in every way possible and paying $20K for the favor. Pass!
Harley Livewire
Kinda cool. Seems like range might be low and also, 40 freaking minutes on a fast charger? This thing will be more expensive to charge on EVgo than it costs to fuel my bike! How about no!
Lightning Strike
Can't even tell if this is real or a scam. No specs on the website, with deliveries supposedly started last month.
485lb and a 20kWh battery? I guess their Asian factory crafts these out of the finest Chinesium on this planet to get to this kind of weight.
Other bikes
Honestly, the other EV motorcycles are even more of a joke than the ones above. It's almost as if people are making these things to ridicule and discredit the entire EV bike industry. My favorite is the one that's shaped to look like a whale penis, so you know you got f*cked by the manufacturer every time you ride it.
(https://assets.website-files.com/5ce31c3eb284e13951246b7e/5d2ed09b87801dc6d0a0d4ec_Hades_Upper%20Left_NB-p-2000.jpeg)
How about this one? Inspired by a freaking Dyson room fan.
(https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/08/rmk-e2-testing-2.png)
Conclusion
I'm ready to be proven wrong otherwise, but at this time electric motorcycles suck. It's not even about cost. The specs are all garbage one way or another. Instead of giving us motorcycles with Dyson fan-based rear motors or whale penis drivetrains, how about building something with a range that allows us to go further than the local Starbucks to pose.
Until then, it looks like I'll have to keep buying gasoline bikes.
Prove me wrong, but I think my research has merit.
Cheers!
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Good points all, with the possible exception of a lack of DC fast charging being a problem (at least in the northeast). There are so few DC charging stations anywhere near me, or where I drive, there would be no use. Then you take something like the LiveWire where they put in DC fast charging but leave a crippled Level 2 charger in place (I mean Level I).
So far, the SR/F is meeting my needs, but my needs are pretty limited! 50 mile one way commute with Level 2 charging on both ends, and >100 mile joy rides on weekends. Works for me!
Coming back from service I figured I should top off the charge before heading home, it took me a few seconds to find a open Level-2 charger 2 miles from the dealer. Topped of from 72% to 98% in 28 minutes. Not great, but I had a nice view.
Steve
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I understand the current electric motorcycle offerings aren’t meeting your needs at this time but to start your post by saying “Electric Motorcycles Suck†reeks of trolling.
For some like me, the current offerings are meeting our needs and definitely do not suck, otherwise we wouldn’t have bought them.
All of your other points are valid and I encourage you to do like I did the past couple of years, watch the continued evolution of electric motorcycles and when you do see one that has the range and charging options you need, take it for a test ride.
Regards...
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We can find countless reasons why ANY motorcycle "sucks" when they do not do what we need or want them to do. My Harley "sucks" on unpaved slow roads. My DR200SE "sucks" on the freeway, etc.
All I can say is that I have nine motorcycles and I will never buy an ICE anything again for the rest of my life. I have my most fun on my two electrics, they are ridden almost every day as my many ICE bikes collect dust.
I ride my two electrics more than my seven ICE bikes combined.
FWIW, I see the biggest problem with electric motorcycles is that there are not enough charge stations out in the middle of nowhere. Range is not the issue, at least not to me, as I would rather stop twice as much for half the time anyway.
How are we going to get charge stations in the middle of nowhere? I would even support an EV tax to cover such. But for now, it's best to have both types of bikes.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Livewire actually only charges to 80% in 40 minutes. It take an hour to charge 0-100%, and I agree that's a joke for L-3 charging on a $30,000 bike. And I agree that it's a joke that THE SR/F doesn't include L3 charging since most the chargers near me are L3. I knew when I decided to buy my 2017 Zero DSR that I wouldn't be doing any long trips. Just commuting and running errands. I still put 8000 miles on it a year. I've never had to charge away from home, so with electricity at 8 cents/kwh, it only costs me $1 to ride 130 miles around town. So my bike is perfect for my intended use. As far as commissioning the motor, only one person supposedly had that issue and i dont believe everything i read on this forum. Some people only come on forums to complain.
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I used to commute (I've since moved, with a much shorter commute) about 50 miles per day, round trip. That's well up into the 90th percentile of commutes here in the US. And I'd get home with ~40% SoC left. I could easily stop at the grocery store, or wherever, on the way home.
I've got 48,000 miles on my bike, mostly commuter miles. So by MY standards, electric motorcycles are absolutely fantastic.
Prove me wrong, dillweed.
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HoodRichOG, Today's electric motorcycles do not fit your use case. That is all.
Move along, folks. Nothing to see here.
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Livewire actually only charges to 80% in 40 minutes. It take an hour to charge 0-100%, and I agree that's a joke for L-3 charging on a $30,000 bike. And I agree that it's a joke that THE SR/F doesn't include L3 charging since most the chargers near me are L3. I knew when I decided to buy my 2017 Zero DSR that I wouldn't be doing any long trips. Just commuting and running errands. I still put 8000 miles on it a year. I've never had to charge away from home, so with electricity at 8 cents/kwh, it only costs me $1 to ride 130 miles around town. So my bike is perfect for my intended use. As far as commissioning the motor, only one person supposedly had that issue and i dont believe everything i read on this forum. Some people only come on forums to complain.
Yes.
At least they are installing 33kW chargers at the dealers. I guess the 40 minutes are just enough for the Livewire customer to question their life choices and finalize the purchase agreement for the new ICE Harley-Davidson WTFBBQ model in 2020.
Here in NorCal, L3 chargers are everywhere.
I guess the only thing that makes sense is to buy a used Zero cheaply, but then my fear is I will destroy the battery pretty quickly by cycling it constantly.
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How are we going to get charge stations in the middle of nowhere? I would even support an EV tax to cover such. But for now, it's best to have both types of bikes.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Nope, the problem is indeed range.
There are plenty of Level 3 chargers popping up. EVgo network is pretty big in NorCal and Electrify America is rolling out pretty well too. But they are built for cars which all have 200+ miles of freeway range.
I've never had range anxiety on my Tesla. In fact, I asked my wife about it recently and she said she never even bothers to look how much charge is left since it's always enough to get her to where she needs to go.
I feel like 150-200 miles freeway range is the minimum for people to consider electric bikes to be viable. I heard that Energica is coming out with a 20kWh model that will do that, but that could be hearsay.
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Nope, the problem is indeed range.
There are plenty of Level 3 chargers popping up. EVgo network is pretty big in NorCal and Electrify America is rolling out pretty well too. But they are built for cars which all have 200+ miles of freeway range.
I've never had range anxiety on my Tesla. In fact, I asked my wife about it recently and she said she never even bothers to look how much charge is left since it's always enough to get her to where she needs to go.
I feel like 150-200 miles freeway range is the minimum for people to consider electric bikes to be viable. I heard that Energica is coming out with a 20kWh model that will do that, but that could be hearsay.
I got here in my Tesla M3, LW, AWD. I came here nonstop and I still have 50% of my charge left.
But I see bikes a bit different. I like to take a lot of breaks and I am in no hurry when I am riding. So stopping to charge up twice as often for half the time is fine with me. But if I cannot make it between charging stations that means I need to take an ICE bike, such as my Stelvio which has an 8.5 gallon (32L) gas tank.
There are enough charge stations, but they are usually grouped too close together.
And even a Tesla LR could have a hassle in many areas, such as going across Hwy 50 in Nevada. And that includes that 20 KWH battery on a bike. On all EV's your choices are still limited to some degree on which way to go.
So IMO, the problem is not enough charging stations when out in the middle of nowhere--but especially for electric motorcycles which (most likely) will never have the same range of cars made the same year.
But yeah, it is improving fast in some areas. But not so much in the middle of nowhere, such as on Hwy 50 in Nevada and several other roads.
-Don- Mountain View, CA
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I agree fast-charging is where it's at. This is why Energica bikes are so appealing with a 20 minute 0-80%. I think we can all agree you're being a bit dramatic with maintenance. The oil is literally just coolant. It needs changing rarely at worst. Other than that it's tires/brakes/chain. With the strong regen you can make brake pads last quite a while, or you can wear them out at gas-bike speeds; it's up to you.
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The oil is literally just coolant. It needs changing rarely at worst.
Since this thread is truly stupid, I don't feel at all guilty about hijacking it.
I thought Energica used like a two-speed transmission that needed lubrication? If I'm mistaken about that, why not just use regular ol' engine coolant? Water has a much higher heat capacity than oil so it's a better coolant.
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I agree fast-charging is where it's at. This is why Energica bikes are so appealing with a 20 minute 0-80%.
Is the charge time about the same from 20% to 100% as it is from 0 to 80%?
I doubt many of us will charge at 0% SOC. But at around 20% will be about right, when possible.
-Don- Mountain View, CA
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Since this thread is truly stupid, I don't feel at all guilty about hijacking it.
I thought Energica used like a two-speed transmission that needed lubrication? If I'm mistaken about that, why not just use regular ol' engine coolant? Water has a much higher heat capacity than oil so it's a better coolant.
You are correct regarding transmission oil that my owner's manual calls for replacement when the motor oil is replaced.
Maybe someone who's more familiar with the Energica electric motor can chime in but I thought they used oil because it's encompassing the magnets and such to keep everything cool. I couldn't imagine using a water based coolant in a sealed magnet motor but then again I'm no engineer.
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My Tesla, which is higher performance than the Energica, has motors encased in an oil bath and the oil doesn't need to be changed until 100K miles.
How did Italians manage to take such a great concept and somehow find a way to break it? Remind me of Alfa or Fiat.
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My guess is Energica is being ultra-conservative with fluid replacements but I could be wrong.
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My Tesla, which is higher performance than the Energica, has motors encased in an oil bath and the oil doesn't need to be changed until 100K miles.
How did Italians manage to take such a great concept and somehow find a way to break it? Remind me of Alfa or Fiat.
My guess is because motorcycles usually require more maintenance than cars because they are more exposed to the elements. Gear oil in cars (differential, etc) is usually never changed in the life of the vehicle. Or perhaps once at the most. But in some bikes, they want it changed every 3K miles. Same type of gear oil used much the same way, so I also wondered why these differences. The only thing I can come up with is that cycles are more exposed. But also, probably don't really require as much as they say it does in the owner's manuals of motorcycles. I too believe they are being overly cautious with motorcycles.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My Tesla, which is higher performance than the Energica, has motors encased in an oil bath and the oil doesn't need to be changed until 100K miles.
How did Italians manage to take such a great concept and somehow find a way to break it? Remind me of Alfa or Fiat.
My guess is because motorcycles usually require more maintenance than cars because they are more exposed to the elements. Gear oil in cars (differential, etc) is usually never changed in the life of the vehicle. Or perhaps once at the most. But in some bikes, they want it changed every 3K miles. Same type of gear oil used much the same way, so I also wondered why these differences. The only thing I can come up with is that cycles are more exposed. But also, probably don't really require as much as they say it does in the owner's manuals of motorcycles. I too believe they are being overly cautious with motorcycles.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Motorcycle engine and transmission are not separated. So it gets contanimated just like all engine oils.
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Motorcycle engine and transmission are not separated. So it gets contanimated just like all engine oils.
I didn't realize there was a transmission in this bike.
OTOH, I think I did hear of an electric bike that had a two speed transmission. Could that be the SS9? How and when does it shift? I never noticed a shift during my short test ride on BigPoppa's SS9 last Saturday.
And the electric motor has cooling oil circulate in the inside of it? Seems a bit unusual, but whatever works!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Motorcycle engine and transmission are not separated. So it gets contanimated just like all engine oils.
I didn't realize there was a transmission in this bike.
OTOH, I think I did hear of an electric bike that had a two speed transmission. Could that be the SS9? How and when does it shift? I never noticed a shift during my short test ride on BigPoppa's SS9 last Saturday.
And the electric motor has cooling oil circulate in the inside of it? Seems a bit unusual, but whatever works!
-Don- Auburn, CA
Maybe I misunderstood you.
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Maybe I misunderstood you.
I know almost nothing about the SS9, I won't even have mine here for a few days.
But I do know it has transmission fluid in it to cool the motor (it's not engine oil, but tranny fluid). I read that in the owner's manual (IIRC).
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Sorry, I think I was getting confused between other threads I am active in here. Then I read back some of the messages here, and I could not make any sense out of some of my own messages. :)
But I want to say that tranny oil is sometimes separated in motorcycles as well. At least in older motorcycles. My 1971 BMW tranny oil never sees the engine. It uses gear oil in the tranny, shaft and differential all separated from each other as well as the engine.
So I never use motorcycle oil in its motorcycle engine, I just use car engine oil. The clutch will never see any oil at all as it is a dry clutch.
I guess they don't make motorcycles like they used to. But the BMW is a rather high maintenance machine anyway and calls for the gear oil to be changed every 3K miles, unlike any cars made back then. So let's make that comparison.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My BMW needs a major service every 18K miles. Oil changes are 9K miles. It's like that on most of the modern ones.
I think manufacturers have clued in that maintenance is probably the least enjoyable thing about owning a motorcycle.
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I thought Energica used like a two-speed transmission that needed lubrication? If I'm mistaken about that, why not just use regular ol' engine coolant? Water has a much higher heat capacity than oil so it's a better coolant.
The boiling temp of engine oil and tranny fluid is around 600F (315C). Well above water. Can't use water without a large radiator, etc. to keep it around 230 F (110C) , <under the high pressure> or below throughout the entire system.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My BMW needs a major service every 18K miles. Oil changes are 9K miles. It's like that on most of the modern ones.
I think manufacturers have clued in that maintenance is probably the least enjoyable thing about owning a motorcycle.
Yes, both cars and motorcycles require a lot less maintenance than 50 years ago. But at any point during that time, the motorcycles usually require more maintenance than do the cars.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I pretty much agree, I love riding an e bike but til one of the big Japanese manufacturers build one with decent specs, that's readily available, I'm sitting this one out, my one and only e bike purchase (Alta) didn't end up so well.
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What the hell is this?
(https://cdn.gearpatrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Cake-Motorcycle-Gear-Patrol-Lead-Full.jpg)
Can you buy this at Ikea? Does it come with assembly instructions?
Street legal version is $14K and tops out at 55mph with a range of under 70 miles.
Who are the people that buy this crap, I want to see their logic.
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Apparently you can have your Cake and ride it too. ;)
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I guess EV bikes out of Europe are competing for the "Who can make the ugliest POS" prize.
Here is an excellent example from Austria... Johammer J1.
The name is as dumb as the bike.
(http://retaildesignblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Johammer-J1-Electric-Motorcycle.jpg)
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I just love my SS9 on the ride here from Reno. I charged for ten minutes in Truckee and went as fast as I wanted to Nyack Road for a 15 minute charge. I got here with 45 miles range and more than a half the charge left. It's 99 miles door to door.
So two ten minutes charges could mean I can get here at any speed I want.
I didn't stay long in Truckee because there is no shade. Plenty of shade at Nyack road.
It's my favorite bike out of ten for this ride to and from Reno.
IMO, ICE bikes suck for this ride! Can't even use the cruise conttol in the hills, like I can on the electrics. I enjoy the two short breaks, but I really only need one charge to full in the middle. I don't need more range than this battery has. There are a lot more CCS chargers than I previously thought. And more are soon coming. Includes the Harley shops, which I was the first one to use in Reno.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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What is special about cruise control on the Energica that any other motorcycle cruise control won't have?
So you charged for 25 minutes for a 100 mile ride? That's not too bad I agree. I wish the Energica had less weight though, that would mean you probably don't need to charge at all on that ride.
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What is special about cruise control on the Energica that any other motorcycle cruise control won't have?
So you charged for 25 minutes for a 100 mile ride? That's not too bad I agree. I wish the Energica had less weight though, that would mean you probably don't need to charge at all on that ride.
In the mountains, in ICE vehicles, with all the steep up and down hills, and the constant gear shifting, using the cruise control is a great way to ruin your transmission. On this run between Reno and Auburn, I never use the cruise control on any of my ICE vehicles, but I often use it on my EVs, including my Tesla M3. ICE and EV cruise controls do not even compare in the mountains. I have done this trip enough, in many different vehicles to see the difference.
The breaks I take on my SS9 are about the same as I like to take on my ICE vehicles. In fact, the SS9 charges a bit too fast as in some cases, I may want to stop for a meal or whatever.
EVs may "suck" to some people. But IMO, ICE vehicles suck for at least 90% of my riding. For the other ten percent, yeah, electric motorcycles suck. But the bike is not the problem even for that 10%. The real problem is no charge stations at all way out in the boonies. Or have to slow charge at an RV park or whatever and that does suck.
So at least to me, ICE bikes suck for 90% of my rides and Electric motorcycles suck for ten percent of my rides.
And BTW, I am rarely in a hurry. I am retired, so I can take my time. I enjoy the charging stops. I usually do the same things on the road while charging as I do when I get home. Such as get on line, have a meal, etc. So why not wait on the road? You could say I am waiting right now at home. But waiting for what? Perhaps to go for another ride on one of my electric motorcycles?
The real problem has been my seven ICE bikes do not get enough exercise as I am usually on my favorite bikes, one of the electrics.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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So you charged for 25 minutes for a 100 mile ride? That's not too bad I agree. I wish the Energica had less weight though, that would mean you probably don't need to charge at all on that ride.
No, not even that. Ten minutes would have been enough. But I did not leave home with a full charge. I have a weird charge problem there, which is covered in other threads here. I got my full charge in Truckee. While I did recharge on Nyack Road, I still had 60% of my charge left when I got to Auburn. A ten minute charge at the summit is all I need to go either way to make that 99 miles, if I leave home at 100% charged.
About the same time I would stop on an ICE motorcycle, just to take a break.
-Don- Rocklin, CA (On the way to Elk Grove Power Sports).