ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: flattetyre on August 01, 2019, 03:22:51 AM
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So a few people talking about the 600 mile (and subsequent) recommissioning supposedly required for our motors. I never did mine, but will probably try it myself when my ixxat comes in. Going to the dealer is a major hassle, and they are kind of incompetent, so I don't trust them with the bike.
The rest of you?
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So a few people talking about the 600 mile (and subsequent) recommissioning supposedly required for our motors. I never did mine, but will probably try it myself when my ixxat comes in. Going to the dealer is a major hassle, and they are kind of incompetent, so I don't trust them with the bike.
The rest of you?
Around 7,500 miles on each of my Zeros. And both of them have had zero service anywhere other than minor stuff done by me. They both run as well as ever. Both are many versions of FW behind.
I don't think recommissioning is something that you can do yourself. I think you need to be on-line with Zero on the Zero website to use their program that only dealers have access to. And the Zero dealer here in Reno doesn't even know that much. They know zero about Zeros, but still sell them.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I had my motor recommissioned ::) when the 600-mile service was performed last year on my 2018 S. I was charged for 1.75 hours of labor, which included a lot of checking and inspection of the chassis and other random parts on the bike. No parts were needed. :)
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I had my 600 mile service done shortly after buying. They did it while I waited, about 90 minutes. The manual section 6.2 says "the initial maintenance is vitally important and must not be neglected." It's reasonable to assume commissioning is needed and the warranty could be impacted. My dealer is top notch.
Now I'm going on 3 years and 8000 miles, having maintained nothing but the belt tension, tire pressure and brake fluid. While 4K service does not call for commissioning, 8K does. I'll take it in soon for 8K, and will also get new tires (same ones) and fork oil. The tires are great and have lasted unbelievably long.
I insist on no firmware upgrade. Everything is perfect. From my perspective, flashing it can only make things worse. How can I prevent accidental flashing? Can I make the EPROM read-only? Can I tape off the connector, or is the same connector needed for commissioning?
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I don't think recommissioning is something that you can do yourself.
That doesn't make any sense. Commissioning is only between the motor and controller so you'd think sevcon's software can do it. I'll find out in a couple days.
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Sevcon's software suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks
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Sevcon's software suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks
Did you want to explain why?
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Give us your take in a couple of days. Our demo SR/F is coming up on 600 miles, so I can see what I can find out on it too.
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Bought my 2017 dsr with 1200 miles on it. 8000 on it now. How can I tell if the 600 mile service was ever done? Call Zero? They never mentioned it when i transfered ownership.
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I don't think recommissioning is something that you can do yourself.
That doesn't make any sense. Commissioning is only between the motor and controller so you'd think sevcon's software can do it. I'll find out in a couple days.
The part you're missing is the wheel has to be spinning off the ground as the bike is logged in to a website that somehow shows the controller pulses in relation to the motor rotor position. I hear it is done on a monitor, kinda like a video game. The good news is that it is hard to screw up when once set up. Something like match up a bunch of dots, save it to the bike and it's done. Simple, be we cannot do it ourselves. I would love to be wrong on this!
I have never seen it done myself. But some others here have who can probably tell you more.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I have never seen it done myself. But some others here have who can probably tell you more.
Getting the wheel off the ground is trivial and according to the Gen4 manual commissioning is part of the Sevcon software. This isn't a special zero thing as far as I can tell.
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Getting the wheel off the ground is trivial and according to the Gen4 manual commissioning is part of the Sevcon software. This isn't a special zero thing as far as I can tell.
If you discover there is a way for the owners to do it, please post the info. here.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I had mine done at 600 miles, it was a small bit off at that point. Dealer charged me an hour of work.
From what I understand its the sevcon statically understanding where exactly the magnets are in the rotor in correlation with the angle of rotor rotation. I guess a fraction of a degree can make a big deal. But.. I dont understand why it cant figure this out dynamically and periodically update itself.
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But.. I dont understand why it cant figure this out dynamically and periodically update itself.
That and why does it drift?
I can understand the precision to which the calibration must be made but being this is electronics, why does it change overtime? What wears out or moves to cause the need to re calibrate?
This sounds a lot like the old ignition systems on ICE vehicles in days of yore, where you had to use a timing light to adjust the spark to near top dead center as the ignition points wore out.
Just bizarre :o
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I've got 600 mile service scheduled for 8/12 for my SR/F. I'll see if I can watch (planning on waiting for it anyway). I'm at 1300 miles (oops).
Steve
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I've got 600 mile service scheduled for 8/12 for my SR/F. I'll see if I can watch (planning on waiting for it anyway). I'm at 1300 miles (oops).
Steve
I am at around 7,700 miles on both of my Zero bikes and never had it done. So a much bigger oops!
The Zero shop here in Reno (EuroCycles) has no idea how it is done.
I cannot even get my FW updated, which is many versions behind.
The Zero name must mean the service. At least here in Reno.
OTOH, both of my bikes run as well as they did the day I purchased them.
But I will try to get this stuff done soon at Elk Grove Power Sports, but they are less convenient for me.
-Don- Reno, NV
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But.. I dont understand why it cant figure this out dynamically and periodically update itself.
That and why does it drift?
I can understand the precision to which the calibration must be made but being this is electronics, why does it change overtime? What wears out or moves to cause the need to re calibrate?
This sounds a lot like the old ignition systems on ICE vehicles in days of yore, where you had to use a timing light to adjust the spark to near top dead center as the ignition points wore out.
Just bizarre :o
I agree. I've never heard of an electric motor needing anything more than brush replacement, but this is a brushless motor so what else is there? Never had my vacuum cleaner motor recommissioned either.😅
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I agree. I've never heard of an electric motor needing anything more than brush replacement, but this is a brushless motor so what else is there? Never had my vacuum cleaner motor recommissioned either.
Perhaps it is NOT the motor that changes, but the PWM--such as the timing circuit shown here (https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/blog/pulse-width-modulation.html), where the timing capacitor can change value in time as it ages.
IOW, the motor wants to see the exact same PWM signal it had from the factory, which can change and effect performance and efficiency.
Now that I have said that, I am no expert on this EV motor stuff, this is just a wild guess.
-Don- Reno, NV
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As explained by Shadow in a different thread:
"Permanent magnets are not all identical (that is much more expensive material science and manufacturing yields), and can change properties when heat cycled. Some change is expected in the first 600mi and then none or very little change thereafter. The periodic commissioning can highlight problems like dirt and broken or shifted encoder magnets."
So, we have heat to blame for the slight drift that may occur with this calibration. Makes sense but I bet someday, they'll design it so it can auto-sense the deviation and compensate on its own.
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As explained by Shadow in a different thread:
"Permanent magnets are not all identical (that is much more expensive material science and manufacturing yields), and can change properties when heat cycled. Some change is expected in the first 600mi and then none or very little change thereafter. The periodic commissioning can highlight problems like dirt and broken or shifted encoder magnets."
So, we have heat to blame for the slight drift that may occur with this calibration. Makes sense but I bet someday, they'll design it so it can auto-sense the deviation and compensate on its own.
I thought Zero did this for the 2012 models? That year they had the "glitch" that would result when the motor and controller would get out of "sync" and cause the bike to suddenly vibrate and the power to shut down while you were riding. To solve this problem it was my understanding that Zero had a recall that updated the firmware so that the controller would automatically synchronize the encoders and the controller. I know that my bike was reprogrammed by my dealer (or was it the factory, I think they might have picked it up at my home?) and I never had the "glitch" after that was done. Of course that was a completely different motor than the 2013 and up versions.
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As explained by Shadow in a different thread:
"Permanent magnets are not all identical (that is much more expensive material science and manufacturing yields), and can change properties when heat cycled. Some change is expected in the first 600mi and then none or very little change thereafter. The periodic commissioning can highlight problems like dirt and broken or shifted encoder magnets."
So, we have heat to blame for the slight drift that may occur with this calibration. Makes sense but I bet someday, they'll design it so it can auto-sense the deviation and compensate on its own.
I would assume either the waveform timing or motor (or both) can cause the out of sync problem. They have to be in sync either way.
-Don- Reno, NV
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All the 3 phase controlled motors with encoders I use to build machines sink them selves.
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I had my 2017 FX (which I bought new in April of this year) recommissioned at about 700 miles. The dealer didn't charge me anything for it because we included it in the purchase. It took a little more than an hour and he also updated the firmware. I didn't get to watch, but I could hear the motor running and the wheel spinning while he was doing the procedure. I can not notice any difference from before and after ...
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I'm at 12'000 miles on my 2016 SR and have never done it. I'll check with my dealer what he suggests :)
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I'm over 48,000 on my 2014 SR and to my knowledge, it's never been done. It's possible the dealer sneaked it in on me, but I doubt it -- in addition to never charging me for it, early on, I was educating him about the bike more than the other way around.
I suspect it's very non-critical, and I'm guessing maybe only needs to be done once, at 600 miles. I doubt it's a matter of anything wearing (there's nothing to wear except the bearings, which won't affect anything timing-wise). It's probably more a matter of things taking a final seat, epoxy fully setting, that sort of thing.
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I'm over 48,000 on my 2014 SR and to my knowledge, it's never been done. It's possible the dealer sneaked it in on me, but I doubt it -- in addition to never charging me for it, early on, I was educating him about the bike more than the other way around.
I suspect it's very non-critical, and I'm guessing maybe only needs to be done once, at 600 miles. I doubt it's a matter of anything wearing (there's nothing to wear except the bearings, which won't affect anything timing-wise). It's probably more a matter of things taking a final seat, epoxy fully setting, that sort of thing.
Be sure that your regen is always working normally. That is often the very first sign of it going way out of spec on the commissioning. If you loose all regen, do NOT ride the bike anymore. Be towed home or to the closest Zero dealer! And explain to the dealer without the key in the bike! It can be that dangerous!
What can happen is that the bike takes over the control and goes any speed it wants and the kill switch may not even work! You will not be able to slow down by the throttle (the key will still work to shut down the bike).
How do I know this? I was the one to have Shadow's bike towed when it happened to him in Reno, NV. He says the bike tried to kill him, but he was able to turn off the key before an accident. The key can work when the kill switch has no effect, as the kill switch works by data. When the motor is this far out , it may not even respond to the kill switch.
His very first symptom was when he lost all of his regen, a day or so before, while the bike was still running well. So consider a loss of regen as a very serious safety issue.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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If you ride hard, recommissioning is very important. There is a device that deals with motor position called an encoder. This can shift. You will lose or gain power from this.
I recently recommissioned a motor that would have killed the rider if he went over 110 mph. It immediately shot up to 160mph even with the kill switch hit.
I know it may not make sense to you, but I have witnessed the reason to have a properly commissioned motor in person. I had never even seen this at the race track. After testing this guys stock settings with a higher max RPM I now require safety checks for every change made during tuning.
Don't shrug it off, and for the love of God, don't do it yourself ;)
Oh, also, after recommissioning, the bike now has a top speed in the 120s and some sweet sweet regen and power.
I mention it in this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvEg4nXVtC0
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What can happen is that the bike takes over the control and goes any speed it wants and the kill switch may not even work! You will not be able to slow down by the throttle (the key will still work to shut down the bike).
How do I know this? I was the one to have Shadow's bike towed when it happened to him in Reno, NV. He says the bike tried to kill him, but he was able to turn off the key before an accident. The key can work when the kill switch has no effect, as the kill switch works by data. When the motor is this far out , it may not even respond to the kill switch.
His very first symptom was when he lost all of his regen, a day or so before, while the bike was still running well. So consider a loss of regen as a very serious safety issue.
Very good to know! I will try to adjust my anticipated reaction to turning the key rather than hitting the kill switch in the case of unexpected throttle response.
For what it's worth, my previous bike had rare intermittent cases where I lost regen, but it came back on its own minutes later or after a power cycle at the latest. That bike went through three different motors due to other issues and was eventually bought back by Zero because they couldn't identify the problem. I didn't put much thought into the loss of regen at the time and don't think I even mentioned that to the dealers or Zero as a symptom. I would think/hope that if it was simply due to motor commissioning that Zero would have diagnosed it.
Now I'll definitely pay attention if I notice loss of regen on my new bike.
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I think Shadow fed the gremlins after midnight and they were just having fun reprogramming his bike while he was dreaming about something nice.
Seriously now, this happened with a model several years old. Wonder if the current crop of bikes have somewhat evolved a bit and have some improved design or safety measures in place to avoid this from still happening.
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I recently recommissioned a motor that would have killed the rider if he went over 110 mph. It immediately shot up to 160mph even with the kill switch hit.
Doesn't that require access to the Zero dealer website? If not, how were you able to get the software to do such a job?
BTW, do You still plan on being in Elk Grove this Saturday? I look forward to meeting you.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Interesting thread for sure. Anyone know if this is a Zero specific issue or is it something all EVs are susceptible to?
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I think Shadow fed the gremlins after midnight and they were just having fun reprogramming his bike while he was dreaming about something nice.
Seriously now, this happened with a model several years old. Wonder if the current crop of bikes have somewhat evolved a bit and have some improved design or safety measures in place to avoid this from still happening.
Seriously though! If the kill switch doesn't work and results in accident or death. It's lawsuit time. I can't imagine anything electronic or otherwise preventing a kill switch to not work. That's just insane!
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I'm not trying to argue, or say anybody's wrong about anything. I'm just trying to understand it myself, as an EE with a pretty fair understanding of electric motors and their typical drive circuitry.
If you ride hard, recommissioning is very important. There is a device that deals with motor position called an encoder. This can shift. You will lose or gain power from this.
Not surprised there's an encoder, in fact I'd be very surprised if there wasn't one in a modern motor. But if your encoder is actually shifting around, your problems go way beyond anything a simple tweak can fix. Very minor settling-in after initial assembly and a few heating-cooling cycles should be the ONLY drift you ever experience. There might also be some tiny drift because of the optos that read the encoder, but again, after settling in, I'd expect to see very little if any. Now sure, if your encoder phasing with the motor drive signal isn't right, you'll lose efficiency, and be down on power. But if the design is at all robust, it would have to be pretty far off to have any significant effect. Do we know how many poles the Zero motor has? I seem to recall talking about four magnets epoxied to the rotor, but my memory isn't getting any better as I get older. If it does have four poles, each is 90 degrees apart, and your synchronization would have to be off by at least a few degrees before you'd notice any loss of power at all.
I recently recommissioned a motor that would have killed the rider if he went over 110 mph. It immediately shot up to 160mph even with the kill switch hit.
Again, this may be lack of understanding on my part, and I don't mean to argue, but I have a hard time imagining how a small phasing error could cause anything like that. If the phasing isn't correct, you LOSE power, not gain it. And if things did go sideways enough for the controller to be totally confused, how could it drive the motor that hard? It relies on accurate position information to create the drive signals, and if things are totally kablooie, how's it going to do that? If things are badly out of sync, it would be driving the motor with incorrect signals, and the motor would respond something like a fibrillating heart -- a ton of random activity, with no proper power uniformly exerted in the correct direction. Finally, turning a motor OFF is simple -- stop applying power. No phase information is required to do that. The kill switch should immediately kill all power to the motor, regardless of bad sensors or anything else. Shut off the driving circuitry and no power goes to the motor. Period.
We know there's a bazillion possible ways for code to exhibit buggy behavior, which COULD easily cause things like massive un-commanded power surges and ignoring the kill switch. And sure, if you change operating parameters of the motor or if it does hit some "out of bounds" operating condition, bugs can be encountered and things could get bad. But those are firmware bugs, maybe triggered by phasing errors, but they're bugs plain and simple. Properly functioning code shouldn't behave like that, even in an error condition.
I'm not going to cast any aspersions about Zero's firmware expertise, but.....well, you know. I wouldn't be surprised if there are "magic numbers" and/or "it just works right this way" features in the firmware that don't take kindly to things like changing the RPM limit.
I know it may not make sense to you, but I have witnessed the reason to have a properly commissioned motor in person. I had never even seen this at the race track. After testing this guys stock settings with a higher max RPM I now require safety checks for every change made during tuning.
Don't shrug it off, and for the love of God, don't do it yourself ;)
Oh, also, after recommissioning, the bike now has a top speed in the 120s and some sweet sweet regen and power.
Again, not trying to get into any arguments, and I'm not in any way trying to deny that you've seen Bad Things Happen. I'm just very skeptical that anything like that was caused by a small error in encoder phasing. I'm convinced something else is at play.
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Seriously though! If the kill switch doesn't work and results in accident or death. It's lawsuit time. I can't imagine anything electronic or otherwise preventing a kill switch to not work. That's just insane!
I also consider it a design flaw for a kill switch to work via data instead of just forcing the contactor off. IOW, it should work like the key does , IMO.
But how would a law suit work out if you do not follow the recommended maintenance guides? However, my case could be different, as I have tried to get my bikes worked on a few times (in Reno) to no avail.
I also wonder if they can do something like what my Triumph Trophy SE (ride by wire) does. On it, when I press the brake pedal, the engine automatically goes to idle. It is not noticeable in any way. The only reason I know it works that way is from reading about how it works. Of course, that will be different on an electric bike where the brake regen is wanted, but perhaps a trick of some type like that can be used.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Again, this may be lack of understanding on my part, and I don't mean to argue, but I have a hard time imagining how a small phasing error could cause anything like that. If the phasing isn't correct, you LOSE power, not gain it.
I think the max speed is set by the controller programming, it can probably go higher when things start to go wrong.
But with 160 MPH, perhaps he meant with the wheel off the ground, under load will be less but still very dangerous.
IOW, we can set our max speed only in the custom mode. Zero sets it for the other modes. But it could go even higher and this setting could be ignored when things go wrong.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Interesting thread for sure. Anyone know if this is a Zero specific issue or is it something all EVs are susceptible to?
Certainly not all. In fact, I don't think the very first Zeros made required any motor commissioning.
Read your owner's manual and see what service your SS9 recommends.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Interesting thread for sure. Anyone know if this is a Zero specific issue or is it something all EVs are susceptible to?
Certainly not all. In fact, I don't think the very first Zeros made required any motor commissioning.
Read your owner's manual and see what service your SS9 recommends.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Neither my 2012 S nor my 2014 S required the motor to be "commissioned". I think commissioning first showed up with the IPM motor.
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my dealer sold about 50 zeros and only once did a commissioning, due to a repair as he said. He gets trained by zero regurarly. if that would be that dangerous, she really should know about that. i told him to get in touch with zero to get zeros take on that
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When I first heard about the need for "commissioning" I got the feeling that it was invented by Zero to throw some after-sales business toward their dealerships' service departments. ::)
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When I first heard about the need for "commissioning" I got the feeling that it was invented by Zero to throw some after-sales business toward their dealerships' service departments. ::)
I sometimes feel that way about the iCE bikes other than that first engine oil change.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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DVT doesn't do commissioning (as far as I can tell) but if it's truly necessary then another Sevcon software tool MUST provide the ability. I read DriveWizard has this capability but there is some confusion over exactly what they mean by "commission" with respect to that software.
I think I will raise the RPM limit so I can get more than 70 MPH with my chain kit. It reaches that speed with plenty of power to spare.
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Recommission your motors, guys. It’s preventative maintenance very analogous to a valve shim check or FI calibration.
The only reason you think it does nothing is that you haven’t had an emerging problem that it caught.
The whole point is to avoid the problem by running the process at a reasonable interval.
No one’s trying to cheat you, and there’s not likely to be a self-recommissioning motor the way that there aren’t self-shimming valves or self-reprogramming FI units. I do think the servicing could be done by laymen with the right tools and instruction, but the OEM has no reason to trust us especially with attitudes like these.
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On another subject, it's total bullshit that Zero doesn't make their service tools available to customers even if we pay. Nobody wants to go to the dealer. It's a huge annoyance and hassle even for those of us fortunate to live relatively close to one.
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Sarcasm follows:
Yes, it’s total bullshit that a vehicle manufacturer requires trained and licensed dealership employees to work on its vehicles.
Unlike literally every other company out there. I own a Suzuki service manual for example, but the OEM does not endorse me using it, and doesn’t let me use their proprietary tools. Suzuki just doesn’t care as long as I don’t break the bike and blame them, because Suzuki is a big company. Zero is not a big company, and literally can’t deal with more than a certain rate of service requests especially if it’s from owners doing things they aren’t qualified to perform.
I have plenty of criticism for Zero’s attitude towards information and the community, and do want them to publish much more than they have, but them wanting to have professionals work on the bikes at dealership service shops is totally valid.
And just to be clear I maintain and expand zeromanual.com for the community so that they can work on their bikes. I struggle with exactly this tension.
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I want total authority of my Zero in my own garage. Who's with me???
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I was able to purchase a factory DVD service manual for my BMW R1200RS over the counter from my BMW dealer for around $110. It is really a amazing manual, which clearly covers every possible thing you would want to do to the bike and is very well illustrated. Plus, BMW updates it about ever 6 months to my computer files over the internet. :)
I am not saying that Zero should do the same thing, just to relate what BMW does for all of the current models.
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In the case of BMW the factory software tools are also out in the open and the binaries of nearly all the enthusiast models have been reverse engineered and documented. With Zero the admin password of the mbb (lol) is not even public knowledge. Like, come on.
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Today, I rode my SR down to Elk Grove Power Sports. I made an appointment to have my firmware updated and my motor commissioned. This is the ONLY dealer I have found that I trust to work on my Zeros. These guys work on Zeros all the time, having big contracts with various city departments, which is probably most of their business.
Anyway, I was able to get some facts about how it is all done. They can do it all while I wait, but still need the appointment. It will be done in two weeks as that was the earliest they could schedule my appointment. It takes about 45 minutes.
I was told to do this stuff, they have to log on to the Zero Dealer-only Website and it must be done while Zero is Scott's Valley is open, as some of this is done from Zero after they are connected up to my bike. And from there, they get my latest FW updates and do the motor commissioning for my bike.
Obviously, the shop in Reno doesn't even know about the dealer website.
I may have to get my DS 6.5 down there too, if I cannot get it done in Reno. I think the J-1772's on the way down are within range of that bike. But it's light enough that I can take it down there on my RV hitch, so I will get it done as well.
I just hope after the work is done on these two bikes that they will run as well as they do now!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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But.. I dont understand why it cant figure this out dynamically and periodically update itself.
That and why does it drift?
I can understand the precision to which the calibration must be made but being this is electronics, why does it change overtime? What wears out or moves to cause the need to re calibrate?
This sounds a lot like the old ignition systems on ICE vehicles in days of yore, where you had to use a timing light to adjust the spark to near top dead center as the ignition points wore out.
Just bizarre :o
Things can shift with temperature, time and at such high RPMs. I work in a research institute, and we do the same thing with our ultra centrifuges once per year. Some of those rotors spin up to 150K rpm or more. Just like you would adjust points or timing on an ICE vehicle, electric motors need to be in time too.
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I want total authority of my Zero in my own garage. Who's with me???
You’re exactly the kind of blowhard that makes me take extra time on the unofficial manual writing explicit warnings about potential harm.
I seriously would not be surprised if you someday drop a wrench across live power terminals and vaporize a lot of things very near and dear to you. I don’t think you will, but if you did, I wouldn’t blink.
I want an owner serviceable bike, but you need to respect that the work involved inside EV powertrains is actually dangerous and requires training. You can’t bluff or use common sense around high power electrical systems.
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You’re exactly the kind of blowhard.
Well, you too lol. Don't take yourself so seriously. And if that's your attitude toward the community, maybe you should show yourself out. If we want to work on our bikes that's our business. It's really not that complicated.
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I just had my SR/F recommissioning at 1449 miles on the bike. The dealer connects a laptop to your bike and then they connect to Zero and they work together with Zero tech to adjust the bike timing. This took less then 30 minutes. I didn't notice anything different on the ride home.
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You’re exactly the kind of blowhard.
Well, you too lol. Don't take yourself so seriously. And if that's your attitude toward the community, maybe you should show yourself out. If we want to work on our bikes that's our business. It's really not that complicated.
You’re right, it isn’t that complicated. You’re able to do whatever you like, it’s just that you’re not getting official assistance or information.
And I’m the majority contributor and editor of zeromanual.com which means I take time to make sure what I publish doesn’t lead people to overconfidently get into areas where they’ll harm their bikes or themselves.
And I’ve been contacted by Zero more than once about issues where owners broke their bikes trying an unofficial procedure and demanded that Zero fix it for free.
You’re showing some grotesque entitlement towards other forum participants here as well as towards Zero, and I’m calling you out on it.
Enjoy the unofficial manual.
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If that's your attitude then you should quit writing. Nobody's forcing you. And I think Zero SHOULD be forced, by law, to offer all repair tools to any interested parties.
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If that's your attitude then you should quit writing. Nobody's forcing you. And I think Zero SHOULD be forced, by law, to offer all repair tools to any interested parties.
Especially the tools to fix a flatte tyre!
-Don-
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Separate my idea from me for a second and tell me you disagree that we should be able to buy all tools needed to service our bikes.
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Separate my idea from me for a second and tell me you disagree that we should be able to buy all tools needed to service our bikes.
I think from a strategic competitive standpoint (disregarding safety and experience), they don't want competitors access to proprietary information to Zeros. Even technicians don't get the full picture, but have something along the lines of an NDA to keep them from sharing too much.
There are probably many reasons, but the one reason I do agree with you is that most Zero dealers are quite clueless. Most technicians are strictly used to ICE service and diagnostics, where EV is an entire different animal. It would be nice to not rely on your most local dealer who may or may not be competent. I think moving forward, Zero acknowledges issues with their current service support and are in the works for changes.
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Separate my idea from me for a second and tell me you disagree that we should be able to buy all tools needed to service our bikes.
It would be nice if we could do all the work ourselves, but I also see some good reasons why we shouldn't always be able to.
But if you have enough money, you can do all the work yourself! Simply buy the Zero factory and then run it anyway you wish.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Separate my idea from me for a second and tell me you disagree that we should be able to buy all tools needed to service our bikes.
Absolutely we should. I support the right to repair and chose Zero motorcycles because they’re the most likely to be used serviceable in addition to be worth servicing. That’s why there’s a number of wiki pages like the toolkit page:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Tool_Kits
And I collect every piece of documentation and software I can for a rainy day. Note that from what I’ve seen, Zero’s documentation and tooling are still immature, and will be until it’s 10 times bigger to afford staff and QA. They’re not going to be persuaded to let users tinker with the clunky tools they can’t keep dealerships reliably trained on.
But you’re still a blowhard among many who I can’t trust to do anything other than make the vendor mistrust us more. So I think you’re a liability in this cause, not an asset.
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But you’re still a blowhard among many who I can’t trust to do anything other than make the vendor mistrust us more. So I think you’re a liability in this cause, not an asset.
Absolutely.
He trolls all over the board being querulous. Pay him no attention.
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and.... back to the topic! *magic wand* ::)
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2016 DSR, 21,600 mi
Had dealer do first 2 service intervals, so if I'm following the manual correctly, I haven't had done motor recommissioning done since 600mi service. The bike has been extremely reliable.
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I continue to wonder why "commissioning" was never mentioned before the IPM motor was introduced (in 2017?)? Neither the owner's manual for my 2012 S or my 2014 S said anything about needing "commissioning" at any time during the life of the bike. It was only when I bought my 2018 S, with its IPM motor, that commissioning reared its confusing head. ???
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I was told to do this stuff, they have to log on to the Zero Dealer-only Website and it must be done while Zero is Scott's Valley is open, as some of this is done from Zero after they are connected up to my bike. And from there, they get my latest FW updates and do the motor commissioning for my bike.
Um, isn't that sort of a REALLY BIG PROBLEM for those who live in other time zones? Europe, Asia, etc, etc?
Just -- wow!
(Others may have commented on this ... I'm working my way through this thread ...)
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And I think Zero SHOULD be forced, by law, to offer all repair tools to any interested parties.
I think Zero SHOULD be forced, by law, to provide us with unicorns. For a nominal fee, of course.
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I was told to do this stuff, they have to log on to the Zero Dealer-only Website and it must be done while Zero is Scott's Valley is open, as some of this is done from Zero after they are connected up to my bike. And from there, they get my latest FW updates and do the motor commissioning for my bike.
Um, isn't that sort of a REALLY BIG PROBLEM for those who live in other time zones? Europe, Asia, etc, etc?
Just -- wow!
(Others may have commented on this ... I'm working my way through this thread ...)
Europe has their own support office. Between them and the US one, I don't think there are any significant gaps
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My dealer talked to Zero about recommissioned the motor. He was somewhat surprised that Zero indeed recommends to do it, but he (and all other Dealers in Switerland) never got told und trained to do it. Thats strange... He also told me, that in the "near" future, Zero will have altered their Firmwareupdate at the dealer in a way, that automatically should recommission the motor, without having the dealer know mutch about the process or even call Zero for assistance. Maybe they are planning that step for a while and won't train the dealers because it will be obsolete, but thats jus guessing...