ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: JaimeC on July 29, 2019, 08:08:15 PM
-
At the time this article was written, the Strike is still very much "Vaporware."
https://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2020-electric-motorcycle-spec-shootout
-
True, although the Strike's competition is really the Energica Ego...sportbike to sportbike.
When I first read the initial info on the Strike I was very excited but now, nearly 6 months later it really feels like the Skully fiasco all over again. For the kind of HP and torque values they list and to not offer TC as at least an option is a non-starter for me. Not to mention no dealer network, no easy way to order other than signing over a check for $10k (let's face it, the Carbon version is the only version worth getting), and not a single "first ride review" or delivery to a real customer.
IMHO the only real players at the moment are Zero and Energica, I don't really count HD since I really don't see the Livewire selling in any real numbers to be considered a serious contender.
-
I agree with your thoughts, but I do consider Harley a serious contender. Their vast dealer network means they will likely move at least 500 units (I am assuming at least 5 per dealer). Their investment in those initial 150 dealers is substantial (L3 chargers, interactive displays, staff training, etc.). It will get them a foot in the market. Other than it's mostly charging related shortcomings and high price, it does seem to be a solid product. A follow up model with L2 support, improved L3 charging, and more competitive pricing could really light the market on fire.
-
If HD does a follow-up to the LiveWire with competitive specs and at least a $5k lower price I would have to consider one the next time I'm in the market for an e-moto. I hope they don't let the LiveWire languish as is and focus on the smaller e-bikes instead.
-
I agree with your thoughts, but I do consider Harley a serious contender. Their vast dealer network means they will likely move at least 500 units (I am assuming at least 5 per dealer). Their investment in those initial 150 dealers is substantial (L3 chargers, interactive displays, staff training, etc.). It will get them a foot in the market. Other than it's mostly charging related shortcomings and high price, it does seem to be a solid product. A follow up model with L2 support, improved L3 charging, and more competitive pricing could really light the market on fire.
The real risk is that if the first Livewire model fails in the market (as most people seem to think, including current EV bike owners who also ride Harleys) H-D and the mainstream manufacturers will conclude that the buying public isn't ready for EV bikes yet and/or that EV bikes aren't ready for prime time, not that it's just a pricing issue.
-
I agree with your thoughts, but I do consider Harley a serious contender. Their vast dealer network means they will likely move at least 500 units (I am assuming at least 5 per dealer). Their investment in those initial 150 dealers is substantial (L3 chargers, interactive displays, staff training, etc.). It will get them a foot in the market. Other than it's mostly charging related shortcomings and high price, it does seem to be a solid product. A follow up model with L2 support, improved L3 charging, and more competitive pricing could really light the market on fire.
The real risk is that if the first Livewire model fails in the market (as most people seem to think, including current EV bike owners who also ride Harleys) H-D and the mainstream manufacturers will conclude that the buying public isn't ready for EV bikes yet and/or that EV bikes aren't ready for prime time, not that it's just a pricing issue.
What you describe sounds a lot like Victory's Brammo Empulse purchase and marketing experience. It sure didn't take long for Polaris to throw the Victory brand and their just refurbished electric motorcycle into the trash can. :(
-
I think Polaris would like to think it's on the shelf not trash. :)
An old post about Energica's IPO showed they had only sold 8 bikes up to that point which was like a year after it came out. They had an over $30k price and then dropped the price and have had good sales ever since.
I think HD will go the same path.
With Triumph now getting into electric bikes and Honda starting up it's electric car models it's just a matter of WHEN, not IF any more.
-
I think Polaris would like to think it's on the shelf not trash. :)
An old post about Energica's IPO showed they had only sold 8 bikes up to that point which was like a year after it came out. They had an over $30k price and then dropped the price and have had good sales ever since.
I think HD will go the same path.
With Triumph now getting into electric bikes and Honda starting up it's electric car models it's just a matter of WHEN, not IF any more.
Well, we all hope (-:
But the real question is when a company commits to volume (or at least lowish-volume but still series) production, rather than just toe-dipping in concepts.
Ducati also said back 2017 that's it's thinking about electrics, and their CEO said the beginning of this year that "the future is electric", but an interview like this one (https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2019/february/ducati-electric-motorbike/) makes me think the vendors are being very cautious w.r.t. committment and that it's not going to happen anytime in the next 2-3 years.
In particular, the Big 4 have only been talking, at least publicly, about scooters and lightweight dirt bikes so far.
As for Triumph's TE-1 project, AFAIK, they're talking about an electric powertrain being ready mid-2021, which means an actual bike model for sale early 2022 at the earliest.
-
The problem with Polaris/Brammo is that they bought a bike. they didn't develop it in house. The Brammo was essentially an unfinished project, not up to OEM standards. It would take considerable design and engineering effort to make the original Brammo a solid product. The Victory division clearly didn't have those resources and Polaris/Indian hasn't really shown the inclination yet.
I do think something could be done with the core Brammo product. Having gears could find a place in the electric bike world, but maybe just 2 or 3 rather than 5. It would provide some product differentiation and potentially longer range. Indian has seen some success stepping away from their core heavy cruiser market with the scout and flat tracker. Maybe they will start developing the Brammo design. Probably not, but could happen.
-
Having gears could find a place in the electric bike world, but maybe just 2 or 3 rather than 5. It would provide some product differentiation and potentially longer range.
I've been wondering about that last aspect... Are you familiar with the relevant considerations?
I know torque curves for electric motors are very different than ICE's, but they're still not completely flat over the entire range. I thought maybe a lowish-power + high-geared mode might still be worth it for highish-speed motorway cruising, energy wise, like what used to be called an "overdrive" gear on cars.
After all, with current tech, electric bikes already have completely sufficient range for most commutes, and the primary missing piece is no-acceleration high speed riding.
-
In 2010 Brammo announced that they would be producing the direct-drive Empulse. After seeing the prototype and meeting Brammo Brian at a Scuderia in San Francisco in February 2011, I pre-ordered one. See attached photo. Then Brammo announced that they would not be manufacturing the direct-drive version but would be redesigning the Empulse to insert an Italian 6-speed transmission and clutch into the drive train system. This process took another two years and most of those 1000 + pre-orders just kind of faded away.
Not long after the 6-speed version was announced I met the Brammo founder (Craig) at the Sonoma Racetrack and asked him why he would not be producing both the original direct-drive model first and follow it up with the 6-speed version later. That way they could enter the market quickly, build up a reputation for a performance EV and generate new customers and cash flow. If the 6-speed bike was an improvement they could follow up with that version and up-sell it to their customers later.
What he told me was that he was in the business just for the fun of it and that he was sure that experienced motorcycle riders would want the fun of shifting a transmission and that was what he was going to do. I told him that I was potentially a customer for the direct-drive Empulse and if he was going to add a lot of complexity to a completely new technology then I would have to rethink my EV purchase plans and go check out Zero's product. Craig didn't seem too concerned about loosing a customer. (And that was when I started to realize that some EV startup founders were flakes when it came to building up a sustainable business.)
So, in 2012 I purchased my first direct-drive Zero S with a battery pack of about the same capacity as the original Empulse was claimed to have.
-
...
I know torque curves for electric motors are very different than ICE's,
...
After all, with current tech, electric bikes already have completely sufficient range for most commutes, and the primary missing piece is no-acceleration high speed riding.
There are a couple potential advantages to adding gearing, and a couple big downsides.
Using a lower gear ratio provides stronger acceleration as everyone knows, but it also reduces the current the motor draws when starting. This increases efficiency at low speed and potentially range. Using a higher gear at high speed keeps the motor in its sweet spot, again improving both performance and efficiency. Having lots of gears or a CVT would improve both performance and efficiency... but not really.
Aside from the mechanical complexity, cost, and weight (not minor considerations) each transition power takes between the motor shaft and the rear wheel comes at some cost of power loss. I have read many times that ICE engines lose 10-15% of crankshaft power to the driveline. This is unavoidable in ICE engines which provide peak performance in only one narrow RPM range.
Zero uses no gear reduction but uses a large diameter motor rotor to provide adequate torque. Energica and Harley each have a single fixed gear reduction before the belt or chain pulley. Adding a single additional gear option could allow the use of a smaller motor for longer range or provide better high and low speed performance for the same motor.
It seems to me that a single planetary gear set that can be be locked with a dog or friction clutch could be attached directly to the motor housing of new bike designs. A friction clutch could be managed seamlessly as in an automatic transmission while a more efficient dog clutch would require more careful engagement (as clutch and synchros provide in a manual automotive transmission). When locked the clutch makes the planetary gear a direct drive, eliminating mechanical losses. Additional clutches could reverse the power flow through the planetary gear set providing an overdrive but this isn't really needed.
Now, whether this would all be worth the cost in complexity, weight, and the almighty dollar, that may have already been decided by the market. Nobody thinks our bikes are cheap. Adding perhaps 1000USD and a maintenance schedule may not be worth it, especially in the small motor/small battery bikes where it would provide the greatest benefit. If someone only wants a higher top speed they can sacrifice low speed acceleration and change the pulley/sprocket final drive ratio. People do that today with both higher and lower ratios.
SR/F dyno chart: https://imgur.com/a/VyuVAf8 (https://imgur.com/a/VyuVAf8)
quick planetary gear 101: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PoLmTIdKhc
-
And don't forget the space that a clutch and transmission would take up on a very space-limited motorcycle chassis. Perhaps a larger battery pack would make better use of this space than a 6-speed transmission. ;)
-
No doubt that's what Zero thought. A two speed as I described above would add about 3 inches to the motor if built into the motor housing. That may be doable on the Energica and almost certainly could be fit into a design like the Livewire. Realistically though, anything like this would need to be in the bike design from the beginning. OEMs (besides Brammo) have chosen not to use any variable ratio drives. I'm sure they have good reasons. Riding a Brammo once showed me that there are advantages to having a couple gears.
-
...there are advantages to having a couple gears.
Of course there are. But with the extremely broad powerband (it's not really even a powerband like an ICE has) of these motors, the upsides just aren't that great. Some people think they'd get better range with a tall freeway gear, but I really don't believe so. The only real advantage you'd see would be torque multiplication at low speeds with a low gear. And there are downsides:
1) Addeed weight.
2) Loss of efficiency.
3) Need for lubrication.
4) Which means oil changes, or at least an occasional greasing. Possibly an oil filter that needs changing. Oil pump?
5) Possible leaks...one of the thing I love best about the Zeros is that there are NO fluids on the bike except for brake fluid and shock absorber fluid. Leaks suck.
6) Another drivetrain component that can fail. Granted, simple gearboxes are pretty reliable, but you're more than doubling the number of components in the drivetrain.
Why do that if the upsides aren't pretty substantial? I'm with Zero on this one -- no gearbox is necessary.
-
I also heard from a Zero employee years ago that there would have been a substantial development and manufacturing cost to install a clutch and transmission in their bikes, as there was nothing suitable to buy off-the-shelf. They were also concerned regarding the likelihood of more complexity that might end up being a reliability and servicing issue for customers (and Zero) in the future. KISS
Brammo selected a 6-speed transmission for their bikes as they found one available from a manufacturer in Italy, apparently at a reasonable price. However, I do note that Brammo owners are starting to have issues with various minor problems with their transmissions, such as leaking seals, that are not easy to resolve now that no one is selling or servicing their bikes anymore. And I am not even sure if the company that made the Brammo transmission is still in business. ???
So I think Zero went the right way with their design. Keep things as simple as possible and don't put all of your eggs into one vendor's basket.
-
Having gears could find a place in the electric bike world, but maybe just 2 or 3 rather than 5. It would provide some product differentiation and potentially longer range.
I've been wondering about that last aspect... Are you familiar with the relevant considerations?
I know torque curves for electric motors are very different than ICE's, but they're still not completely flat over the entire range. I thought maybe a lowish-power + high-geared mode might still be worth it for highish-speed motorway cruising, energy wise, like what used to be called an "overdrive" gear on cars.
After all, with current tech, electric bikes already have completely sufficient range for most commutes, and the primary missing piece is no-acceleration high speed riding.
I've been thinking about it too.
For quite some time in fact. I started with the idea of a liquid filled, clutching, regular transmission was not an option and thought about it from there.
I wanted a simple two gear ratio setup. I simply saw the old gear offerings from Zero, one for higher torque and the other for higher speed, and said YES.
Now there may be a system that could engauge one ratio and release the other at high speed without a clutch but I'm not aware of it.
So I've thought of going very simple but higher cost by using two different motors with two different gear ratios on either side of the rear wheel. IOW the high torque setup on the rear left with a top speed of 70MPH (switching over to the other motor at 55MPH under normal riding) and the second motor geared on the right side of the rear wheel for 55 to a new higher top speed.
The MBB could be programed to switch the power from motor to motor at the desired speed "shift".
I think you could have a few benefits to balance out the cost of a second motor. (I feel electric motor costs will drop greatly as volume numbers spike.)
First you simply have two drive systems so your far less likely to get stuck in the middle of no where which is always good. Break one belt? Turn on your override and the bike stays on the one good motor.
The next is heat management. Only one motor is getting power at a time but both are getting air flow it's cooling one while the other works. Again if one does reach a thermal cut back it could switch over to other motor until it cools.
The last is the range increase at highway speed from the high speed gearing needing less RPMs at speed.
Ok go ahead and tell me why this dosen''t work, I can take it. :)
-
The two motor ideas is novel, and maybe would work in a smaller ebike.
Problem with trying to do it with a model like the SR is that those motors are huge and heavy. You can't fit two motors in the same space without greatly sacrificing how powerful it is. You're talking literally cutting the motor in half.
They would need to be perfectly aligned with each other so the belt moves properly on both sides.
Since there's still no clutch and they're both direct drive, the motor not being used would have to still be spinning in line with the motor being used. Left motor is spinning the wheel with is spinning the right motor. Not particularly good for either motors, plus it would create a lot of drag. You feel the resistance when you push your zero even though it's off? It doesn't spin freely.
Then you have two belts, more weight, and you would have to mount the disk break on the same side as a belt which has its own host of issues.
Personally I don't miss gears on my zero. It does everything I need it to do. The minor difference in gear ratios is not worth the complexity, cost, or weight added.
-
Personally I don't miss gears on my zero. It does everything I need it to do. The minor difference in gear ratios is not worth the complexity, cost, or weight added.
The wide torque range with no shifting is one of the main reasons I like EVs.
One practical reason is how we can use a cruise control in the mountains with no shifting back and forth. Between here in Auburn, I often use the cruise control in my Tesla. I would NEVER try to use it in any of my ICE vehicles on this same trip. It is also bad for the transmission. The transmission that we don't even have in our EVs.
I would never even consider an EV that has a clutch.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
True dat. Unnecessary complication. Consider the Lightning LS-218 hit over 200 mph at Bonneville with a single gear, and the MotoE bikes currently racing in Grand Prix all have a single gear with no clutch and you quickly realize a clutch and transmission in an EV is a marketing gimmick and nothing more.
-
True dat. Unnecessary complication. Consider the Lightning LS-218 hit over 200 mph at Bonneville with a single gear, and the MotoE bikes currently racing in Grand Prix all have a single gear with no clutch and you quickly realize a clutch and transmission in an EV is a marketing gimmick and nothing more.
That's also how I feel about my Harley. Why does it have six gears? Because of marketing as most Americans think "more is better".
It needs perhaps three gears since it has all that torque, six is a waste of time on that bike. Just more unnecessary shifting.
My 1971 BMW only has four gears and that is all it needs. Even it could get by with three gears as there have been times then I was in 3rd thinking it was fourth while on the freeway even on that small bike.
IMO, they should go for less gears, not more, as having more gears, IMO, is just a way of saying it has a low RPM range for the torque.
Only with the smaller bikes without a lot of torque and power is where it is true the more gears the better. Such as my DR200SE and Kaw 650.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
True dat. Unnecessary complication. Consider the Lightning LS-218 hit over 200 mph at Bonneville with a single gear, and the MotoE bikes currently racing in Grand Prix all have a single gear with no clutch and you quickly realize a clutch and transmission in an EV is a marketing gimmick and nothing more.
(Aside: Yes, but the LS-218 wasn't "stock" for that run; unlike what Lightning likes to claim, it wasn't anything like a production bike, even if the LS-218 was a production bike in the first place, which it ain't. IIRC, for that Bonneville run they had special high-speed gearing, a streamlined surround fairing, and replaced various other parts with CF.)
That said, I certainly understand the advantages of KISS for reliaiblity, and "(almost) no fluids and no oiling the chain" is a big attraction maintenance-wise.
I was surprised to hear that Energicas have both oil- and coolant-based cooling systems (apparently for the motor & ECU/inverter respectively), that both need replacing at fixed intervals -- looks like an unnecessary complication.
So, re the gearbox I was just trying to educate myself on the potential (or not) advantages of gears on an e-motorcycle.
It's actually nice that on an e-bike you can have a system like the Energicas' Parking Assist without a gearbox -- basically, a very slow forward/reverse creep mode (I expect they simply run the motor in reverse, and use very low amperage).
Can you tell I'm impatient for a reasonable-weight and -price e-bike to be capable of ~180mi @ 80mph? Until that happens, they're not relevant for me personally :(
Thanks Bill822 and everyone else for their thoughts.
-
I was surprised to hear that Energicas have both oil- and coolant-based cooling systems (apparently for the motor & ECU/inverter respectively), that both need replacing at fixed intervals -- looks like an unnecessary complication.
I don't think so. In my Zero bikes, as it gets very hot from climbing up lots of hills, the power drops down enough to easily notice. The Energicas are more into performance so they need more than air cooling, to help prevent such from happening.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
I was surprised to hear that Energicas have both oil- and coolant-based cooling systems (apparently for the motor & ECU/inverter respectively), that both need replacing at fixed intervals -- looks like an unnecessary complication.
I don't think so. In my Zero bikes, as it gets very hot from climbing up lots of hills, the power drops down enough to easily notice. The Energicas are more into performance so they need more than air cooling, to help prevent such from happening.
I didn't mean having active cooling was an unnecessary complication -- I've read lots of reports about Zeros overheating and thorttling power high speeds, esp. in hot weather, whereas that doesn't seem to be an issue with the Energicas.
I meant having two separate liquid cooling systems rather than just one.
-
I meant having two separate liquid cooling systems rather than just one.
Oh, I have wondered about that as well, but I assume there is a reason.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
From my understanding the oil cooled motor is for performance reasons. More consistent performance and more predictable behavior. From what I’ve read (but yet to experience) is that the Energicas are more predictable when it comes to them going into limp-home mode vs the Zeros.
From what I’ve inferred from various articles is that the liquid cooling of the VCU is similar to the need/desire to liquid cool a high end gaming computer. The CPUs get very hot with the amount of data they’re processing and the liquid cooling helps avoid any kind of thermal lockup.
I could be wrong on any or all of the above but that’s the impression I’ve gotten from various articles.
-
From my understanding the oil cooled motor is for performance reasons. More consistent performance and more predictable behavior. From what I’ve read (but yet to experience) is that the Energicas are more predictable when it comes to them going into limp-home mode vs the Zeros.
From what I’ve inferred from various articles is that the liquid cooling of the VCU is similar to the need/desire to liquid cool a high end gaming computer. The CPUs get very hot with the amount of data they’re processing and the liquid cooling helps avoid any kind of thermal lockup.
I could be wrong on any or all of the above but that’s the impression I’ve gotten from various articles.
So is it that oil cools the motor and the coolant cools the VCU (what does that stand for?). Does anything cool the battery other than air? And are there any heat related problems in charging (or anything else) after hard riding in very hot weather?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
VCU= vehicle control unit. I’m guessing it’s just Energica’s term for an ECU on steroids since the VCU has dual CPU’s for redundancy if I recall correctly and it runs a large amount of code which I believe is the main reason they don’t do over the air software updates and require any software/firmware updates to be done by a dealer.
And yes, oil is for cooling the electric motor and the coolant is for the VCU. The battery is air cooled only. There’s an opening for air that runs vertically from front to back that you can see when looking at the front of the battery pack.
The one time I did fast charge my EsseEsse9 the temp gauge did go yellow afterwards although I was a little confused since I believe it was the motor temp gauge, not the battery temp. Outside of that one time, the temp gauges have remained green, even when commuting in 100+ degree temps and charging at 110v immediately after getting home. We’ll see if it happens again next Saturday when I fast charge it at our meet up.
-
VCU= vehicle control unit. I’m guessing it’s just Energica’s term for an ECU on steroids since the VCU has dual CPU’s for redundancy if I recall correctly and it runs a large amount of code which I believe is the main reason they don’t do over the air software updates and require any software/firmware updates to be done by a dealer.
I guess I will just have to make sure the bike has the latest updates before I buy. How long have you had yours? Is it a 2020 year model? What version is the latest and how do I check?
One thing I am concerned with is living so far from the dealer. I just wonder how much I can do myself of the routine maintenance and how much the dealer must do.
BTW, if there on on-line owner's manual (or more) for the SS9?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Mine is a 2020 model and I’ve had it almost a month now. I’ll check my owner’s manual when I get home to see how to check the firmware version, it’s something I haven’t thought about to be honest.
Outside of firmware/software updates, I would imagine you could do pretty much everything depending on your comfort level with the electrical system. Since it is a high voltage system I would imagine there are safety concerns when working on any of the Energica’s electrical systems.
The only challenge is getting a copy of the service manual. I haven’t asked the dealer so I don’t know if it’s available to owners or if you have to be a dealer to get one. I haven’t been able to find either the owner’s manual nor the service manual online as a PDF.
If you can get a copy of the service manual and ensure your work meets the specifications outlined in there, then by law I don’t think a warranty claim can be denied due to lack of maintenance as long as you can provide receipts for supplies and affirm all work has been done according to published specifications.
-
Mine is a 2020 model and I’ve had it almost a month now.
Which electric bike did you have before your new Energica?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
I haven’t been able to find either the owner’s manual as a PDF.
Have you seen this? (https://www.energicamotorusa.com/PDF/myenergica-reference-guide.pdf)
-Don- Reno, NV
-
I haven’t been able to find either the owner’s manual as a PDF.
Have you seen this? (https://www.energicamotorusa.com/PDF/myenergica-reference-guide.pdf)
-Don- Reno, NV
That's only a 14-page basic guide for their app, nothing like a detailed Owner's Manual.
I've also searched quite a bit for the latter, and haven't found any bike docs by Energica online at all.
-
That's only a 14-page basic guide for their app, nothing like a detailed Owner's Manual. I've also searched quite a bit for the latter, and haven't found any bike docs by Energica online at all.
At least there is something which gives a little info. I wonder if they are just starting to put some stuff on-line.
BTW, how long has Energica been in business? What is their oldest model year?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
That's only a 14-page basic guide for their app, nothing like a detailed Owner's Manual. I've also searched quite a bit for the latter, and haven't found any bike docs by Energica online at all.
At least there is something which gives a little info. I wonder if they are just starting to put some stuff on-line.
BTW, how long has Energica been in business? What is their oldest model year?
-Don- Reno, NV
The first time I can recall hearing about Energica being imported in the U.S. was in 2016. At that time I believe their MSRP was going to be $35-$40K, which I thought was way too much to generate much market activity. Apparently I was right.
But I imagine that some internet research should answer your question.
-
Which electric bike did you have before your new Energica?
-Don- Reno, NV
This is my first electric motorcycle. I’ve been following their development since I participated in a focus group for Brammo before they released their Empulse. It was only when Zero released their 14.4kwh battery that I started seriously looking at getting one. When the SR/F and Strike were announced early this year I finally decided this year was the year I would pick one up.
-
I was wrong I can't take it :'(
LOL
I'll work on it.
You really get a good understanding of how gearing helps when you ride/race bicycles and your the engine. Things have a happy zone power band for the output and as conditions change ie hills, wind, ect if you want to maintain a certain speed you need to change your gear ratio to stay in that happy zone.
DonTom your Harley has 6 gears to try to stay in the engines power band longer. My race bike had 9 rear gears and then Armstrong wanted 11 and I think they're even up from there at this point. It keeps your pedal cadence at a rate that works for you heart rate.
The two addtional gear ratio offerings from Zero show you the trade off of higher torque but you lose top speed or higher top speed but you lose low end torque. So if you wanted wheelie torque and a 140PH top speed from the same motor two ranges of gearing would help.
Like Wavelet said the LS218 had very high speed gearing and I bet it started off very slow from the line as a result.
-
This is my first electric motorcycle. I’ve been following their development since I participated in a focus group for Brammo before they released their Empulse. It was only when Zero released their 14.4kwh battery that I started seriously looking at getting one. When the SR/F and Strike were announced early this year I finally decided this year was the year I would pick one up.
What made you decide on the EVA EsseEsse9 over the Zero SR/F?
Since I am done with my Sunday ICE ride already, I am thinking about leaving for Auburn in about 30 minutes. On my SR.
I am topping up the charge right now.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Like Wavelet said the LS218 had very high speed gearing and I bet it started off very slow from the line as a result.
You would be sadly mistaken:
https://electrek.co/2019/02/04/watch-ls-218-electric-motorcycle/
-
What made you decide on the EVA EsseEsse9 over the Zero SR/F?
Since I am done with my Sunday ICE ride already, I am thinking about leaving for Auburn in about 30 minutes. On my SR.
I am topping up the charge right now.
-Don- Reno, NV
The riding position was the number one reason followed by the pure Italian sexiness of the bike although that was offset by the SR/F's lower routine maintenance requirements and better range. So...really just the riding position.
-
Like Wavelet said the LS218 had very high speed gearing and I bet it started off very slow from the line as a result.
You would be sadly mistaken:
https://electrek.co/2019/02/04/watch-ls-218-electric-motorcycle/
Nope not mistaken. Two different bike setups. Watch the speed record video and listen to Hatfield talk to Jay Leno on his visit to the garage.
The bike as it sits and was test rode had the "standard" gearing but the speed record bike had gearing for high speed and an aero pod. High speed gearing means crap low end torque.
Still an impressive feat but that's the * of it all.
-
The riding position was the number one reason followed by the pure Italian sexiness of the bike although that was offset by the SR/F's lower routine maintenance requirements and better range. So...really just the riding position.
The more maintenance means nothing to me as long as I can do it myself. The riding position is important. That is what I didn't like abut the SR/F along with the foot pegs being up way too high for me.
BTW, this morning in Reno, I rode my buddy's shinny new 2019 BMW RT1250 for a few miles. What a nice bike! Fit me perfect! But I have more than enough ICE bikes, besides the fact I am done buying anything ICE for life.
He rode my BMW, the 1971. He was very surprised how well my old bike ran. He really likes its ride also. Runs better than new because of some performance mods I made over the years.
BTW, ever ride the plain SR? You will this Saturday! MUCH more comfy than the SR/F, at least to me. But the seat is rather hard.
Today from Reno, I hit some slow traffic which means I get here a lot faster! At least I would have. I was not going to recharge all the way here because I had exactly 50% of my charge left when I got to the Gold Run Rest Stop (near Exit 143 on I-80). I needed a break because of the hard seat! But the west bond Gold Run Rest Stop is closed today. So I did the next best thing. I rode to the Colfax train station where they have a bench in the shade, as I recharge back up for free. By the time I was done checking my email and looked at my messages in this forum (including the one that I am replying to right now), I was charged up to 90% and my range said (based on the way I have been riding) is 212 miles. It probably would have said above 250 miles if I charged to full. This is the most range I have ever seen indicated on this bike. But the warm weather and slow traffic made a big improvement in range. And from the summit, it's mostly down hill.
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
Interesting to see this conversation has carried on. I have been out of town for a bit at a conference. Spent my spare time working on back-of-the-napkin design for a 2-speed transmission. No, there is no "clutch."
I think there is a market for this type of product and I am confident it is feasible. There are some patent issues that have to be worked around for some of the internal components. This will never be an add-on product for an existing bike though.
Involved project and I have a backlog of design work so it will be a while before there is any progress, but thank you for your help by indicating your wishes and concerns regarding transmissions on electric bikes!
-
Anyone recall the two-speed automatic transmission Honda 750 and 450 motorcycles of the late 1970's? I think Moto Guzzi also had a model with a two-speed automatic. None of those models made the companies rich and they didn't stay on the market very long. ;) But a two-speed, clutch-less, transmission might be just the thing for an EV, if it can be made compact enough and perhaps integrated into one end of the drive motor. Of course it didn't work out very well for Tesla, but might survive on a motorcycle motor with less torque than Tesla had.
-
All right, Reinvent Powerglide.
-
Anyone recall the two-speed automatic transmission Honda 750 and 450 motorcycles of the late 1970's? I think Moto Guzzi also had a model with a two-speed automatic. None of those models made the companies rich and they didn't stay on the market very long. ;) But a two-speed, clutch-less, transmission might be just the thing for an EV, if it can be made compact enough and perhaps integrated into one end of the drive motor. Of course it didn't work out very well for Tesla, but might survive on a motorcycle motor with less torque than Tesla had.
Re Moto Guzzi, you're probably thinking of the V1000 Convert. It had a clutch for the 2-speed gearbox, and a torque converter. The 2 speeds were basically to provide the equivalent of a 4x4 vehicle's Lo/Hi ranges; IIRC, Guzzi launched the model as some police department wanted a bike that convenient for slow-speed convoy duties.
I think the Honda CB750A was similar, i.e., also had a clutch.
The 2-stroke 50cc scooter I had as a teenager in the early 1980s, a Garelli VIP/2, had a 2-speed automatic transmission without a clutch. No torque converter of course, but the 2 speeds made it accelerate better than the 1-speed mopeds (-; Any moderately fit bicyclist could still overtake me, though...
-
Speaking of Garelli's I owned one too. A 1969 125. Photo attached. Honda Super 90s would blow right by me, unfortunately. :'(
-
Cool, it had a front wheel hub motor. ;)
That is a nice looking little bike though. So simple by today's standards.
-
Here's what Jonny, oh and some car company named Porsche, thinks is the best way to get high torque off the line and high top speed over and over again.
Skip to the 9:20 mark for the answer. ;) But watch the whole video for fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU