ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: ultrarnr on July 12, 2019, 05:52:31 AM
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The specs on the Live Wire are finally out!
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-technical-specifications/
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Battery useable 13,6 kWh, that's bigger than the forum's earlier estimates. If HD for 1,4 kW onboard says 20km/h, then the DC fast charge 308km/h, would result in 21,5 kW; that's plausible. I also read somewhere 40 min for 80% SOC, which would result in a lower over all DC charge rate.
Given the fact that they state 105 HP, I find their 0-60mph claim 0f 3.0s quite ambitious, basically Energica Ego figures, with less than EsseEsse9 power.
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86lb of torque ...lol GL Harley.
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What kind of motor tech are they using? Lower power figures than the EsseEsse9, bigger battery, yet range figures that are on par with the Energicas and less than the SR/F.
The more I find out about the production Livewire the more disappointed I am in lost potential. It’s interesting that when I read comments on websites they usually inflate the Premium SR/F’s $21k MSRP with tax+license estimates (which vary by state and county) yet they quote the $30k MSRP of the Livewire without tacking on the same tax + license estimates.
Seems like some H-D fans are trying to make the price difference between the Livewire’s direct competition seem smaller than it really is.
When both the premium SR/F and EsseEsse9 can be had for $21k MSRP with better specs in many areas and comparable specs everywhere else I can’t wrap my mind around what the marketing and sales strategy is with the Livewire. Is the H-D brand really worth a $9k premium?
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What kind of motor tech are they using? Lower power figures than the EsseEsse9, bigger battery, yet range figures that are on par with the Energicas and less than the SR/F.
The more I find out about the production Livewire the more disappointed I am in lost potential. It’s interesting that when I read comments on websites they usually inflate the Premium SR/F’s $21k MSRP with tax+license estimates (which vary by state and county) yet they quote the $30k MSRP of the Livewire without tacking on the same tax + license estimates.
Seems like some H-D fans are trying to make the price difference between the Livewire’s direct competition seem smaller than it really is.
When both the premium SR/F and EsseEsse9 can be had for $21k MSRP with better specs in many areas and comparable specs everywhere else I can’t wrap my mind around what the marketing and sales strategy is with the Livewire. Is the H-D brand really worth a $9k premium?
I was surprised by the lack luster specs. I had hoped for more (I'd love to see them succeed). I think having a strong network of dealers would sway some folks, along with the name. Seeing the specifications made me happy with my recent choice on the SR/F (I should say more happy, since I was already happy!). 50 more pounds over the SR/F with less range and no Level 2, tough sell for around here (very few DC chargers in my neck of the woods).
Steve
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H-D has further updated the specifications for their new $30K+ LiveWire electric motorcycle, including having engineered-in an idle vibration feature that lets you know that it is "idling" when you are at a stop. ::) Note that they are already bragging that the LiveWire and its rider can be updated with original factory (Screaming Eagle?) accessories. I can hardly wait for the official $50 leather static electricity strap that will drag on the ground to prevent static electricity sparks when you dismount the LiveWire: ;D
https://electricmotorcycles.news/harley-davidson-livewire-update/
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"GEAR OIL??" Why does this thing need "Gear Oil???"
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DRIVETRAIN
Primary Drive (*Cert) Spiral bevel gear , 55/17 ratio
Final Drive (*Cert) Belt, 3/1 ratio
Transmission Single Speed
Gear Ratios (overall) 1st (*Cert) (X.XXX) 10
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I was surprised by the lack luster specs. I had hoped for more (I'd love to see them succeed). I think having a strong network of dealers would sway some folks, along with the name. Seeing the specifications made me happy with my recent choice on the SR/F (I should say more happy, since I was already happy!). 50 more pounds over the SR/F with less range and no Level 2, tough sell for around here (very few DC chargers in my neck of the woods).
Steve
I'm in complete agreement on both fronts. I REALLY, REALLY wanted the Livewire to be a competitive product at a competitive price. I'm also glad I went with my EsseEsse9. DC charging that's twice as fast and true level 2 charger support (even if it is only 3kw). Not to mention that although subjective, I think the fit and finish on my Energica is better than the Livewire at a much lower price point.
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I was surprised by the lack luster specs. I had hoped for more (I'd love to see them succeed). I think having a strong network of dealers would sway some folks, along with the name. Seeing the specifications made me happy with my recent choice on the SR/F (I should say more happy, since I was already happy!). 50 more pounds over the SR/F with less range and no Level 2, tough sell for around here (very few DC chargers in my neck of the woods).
I wish I could say I was surprised. IMO, HD long ago crossed the line from being a serious motorcycle manufacturer to more of a lifestyle company. "Made in America" and "a louder bike is a safer bike" isn't enough for most motorcyclists any more, especially at the prices HD wants to charge these days.
About the only thing I do like about the LiveWire is the styling -- to my eye, it's a beautiful machine, and even looks fairly comfortable. Sure as HAIL isn't enough to get me to shell out $30k, though.
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The LiveWire seems to have a pretty decent capacity battery pack, considering the size of the platform. I wonder what brand, type and chemistry of the cells that they are using? I find it interesting the the bike is "optimized for urban riding." So no touring on the LiveWire. ;)
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Why is the battery only charging at 1C? Why even offer CCS if you're only going to use it at 1C?
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"Optimized for urban riding" explains the lack of L2 charging. Most urban areas have enough CCS charging systems so charging isn't a problem. Once you start to leave urban areas CCS charging becomes harder to find so you are more likely to rely on L2 charging. If that L2 is 6.6 kw or so it may not be a problem. But L2 charging on the Live Wire is the same as L1. So you are either charging for 30-40 minutes or 8-10 hours. Have ridden my Zero SR and my Energica Eva 107 across North Carolina. There is no way I would attempt a trip like that on the Live Wire.
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CCS well charge the Livewire 0 to 80 percent in 40 minutes
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CCS well charge the Livewire 0 to 80 percent in 40 minutes
Right. That's 1C. That's no better than the EU version of the SR/F with the Charge Tank. Why even do CCS in that case?
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Because in the US without CCS charging on the Live Wire you would only have L1. The EU can take advantage of the 11kw charging that is possible on the SR/F. L2 charging that is faster than 6.6 is rare in the US.
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That's the issue I think. The Livewire's competition in the US (SR/F and Energicas) will do actual L2 charging, whether at 3kw or 6kw in the case of the SR/F Premium.
The Livewire completely misses the large L2 infrastructure for charging making the bike useless if you don't have access to L3/DC chargers which I believe is the reason they forced dealers that are selling the Livewire to install DC chargers. It also looks like HD has signed a partnership with one of the DC charger providers to provide free DC charging for Livewire owners for a period of time. I guess in an attempt to address the public charging shortcomings.
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H-D signed an agreement with Electrify America for free charging. While VW has done a great job installing DCFC systems around the US they do have their growing pains. If you check on Plugshare you will see examples where people couldn't get any of the chargers to work.
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Like... maybe it's just me but the promise of CCS should bring, along with it, the promise of 2C+ charging. These aren't massive batteries. The stations have MORE than enough power to supply it.
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L2 charging that is faster than 6.6 is rare in the US.
I wonder why, as any of my three houses can all do 240 VAC @ 48 amps which comes to 11,520 watts at my Tesla Wall Stations. But I use a Tesla Tap to work with my Zeros with a couple of Quick-Chargers, which is only a few thousand watts.
-Don- Reno, NV
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MVetter, But a much higher charging power also brings a much sooner taper. Right now my Eva 107 starts to taper at about 67% SOC. My Model 3 starts to taper at around 47%. And when you look at the V3 Superchargers they will taper even sooner. I am not sure max power is as important as what the taper curve looks like as far as charging speed goes.
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The new Audi Etron is addressing the taper issue by telling you we're limiting you usable range. They have a 95kWh battery but you only get the range of about a 70 kWh battery so you can charge at a high rate all the way to your usable "full". We'll see if that bit if marketing works for them.
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The new Audi Etron is addressing the taper issue by telling you we're limiting you usable range. They have a 95kWh battery but you only get the range of about a 70 kWh battery so you can charge at a high rate all the way to your usable "full". We'll see if that bit if marketing works for them.
I would think most would rather have the extra 25KWH of range. Sounds like a dumb idea to me as you can still have the choice to charge to 70 KWH with a 95KWH capacity. So all they are really doing is limiting your choice.
-Don- Reno, NV
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BTW, anybody here planning on buying a LW?
-Don- Reno, NV
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DonTom the report on Transport Evolved said their research showed people valued the "gas pump experience" so a faster charge up is what these, lets say EV wary, customers wanted.
Now I agree I wouldn't want it but it may also be a way for companies to be able to avoid the dreaded "replace the battery for free under warranty" because of range loss in a set period. You can't lose it if I don't give it to you. :)
As for the LW the specs seem much better than the early numbers were hinting at so maybe a Christmas discount may sale a few more than I first thought.
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As for the LW the specs seem much better than the early numbers were hinting at so maybe a Christmas discount may sale a few more than I first thought.
Yep, the LW specs are better than I expected. But I cannot say it's worth the 30K$ price tag.
What I think is more important than range is to have more places to charge in the middle of nowhere so range is less of an issue. It does little good to have the many J-1772 charge stations in the larger cities when there are none at all in places such as Portola, CA or anywhere else on Hwy 70 in CA. That is our real limit to our range.
-Don- Reno, NV
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BTW, anybody here planning on buying a LW?
-Don- Reno, NV
Since I just bought an Energica I won’t be getting a Livewire. Given the state of current production models and bikes releasing this year the Zero SR/F and Energica EsseEsse9 are the only ones that provide the best “valueâ€. Given comparable specs the LiveWire is overpriced. The Strike is a non starter since it doesn’t have traction control or ABS (in my personal opinion electrics are extremely dangerous without some form of traction control given the way they deliver their torque).
Hopefully next year or the year after will see a cheaper LiveWire or one with improved specs to warrant the price premium and the Strike will be fitted with safety features on par with the Zero, Energica, and HD bikes.
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MVetter, But a much higher charging power also brings a much sooner taper. Right now my Eva 107 starts to taper at about 67% SOC. My Model 3 starts to taper at around 47%. And when you look at the V3 Superchargers they will taper even sooner. I am not sure max power is as important as what the taper curve looks like as far as charging speed goes.
Any way you look at it the Energicas do a 0-80% in ~20 minutes and the LiveWire is claiming 0-80% in ~40 minutes. Same stations. Same interface. Stations capable of delivering at least 4C rates for either pack.
Even if Energica magically tripled their battery packs (and we can all dream), it would still do 0-80% in ~20 minutes at these stations.
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I have a Livewire on order. I am going to have fun with it for sure.
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Speaking of H-D prices, I just read in the last Motorcyclist magazine (or was it Motorcycle Consumer News?) that H-D has one very fancy ICE model that sells for $44K. :o So if you are one of the "faithful" your pricing limits can be pretty high. ;)
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Speaking of H-D prices, I just read in the last Motorcyclist magazine (or was it Motorcycle Consumer News?) that H-D has one very fancy ICE model that sells for $44K. :o So if you are one of the "faithful" your pricing limits can be pretty high. ;)
Here is a Harley that costs a bit more than 44K$. (https://www.foxnews.com/auto/1-9-million-harley-davidson-is-the-worlds-most-expensive-hog)
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have a Livewire on order. I am going to have fun with it for sure.
I am sure you will.
But what made you choose the LW over all he other Electric motorcycles? Or do you have others? Or at least Test ride others?
And when should it arrive?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Speaking of H-D prices, I just read in the last Motorcyclist magazine (or was it Motorcycle Consumer News?) that H-D has one very fancy ICE model that sells for $44K. :o So if you are one of the "faithful" your pricing limits can be pretty high. ;)
Here is a Harley that costs a bit more than 44K$. (https://www.foxnews.com/auto/1-9-million-harley-davidson-is-the-worlds-most-expensive-hog)
-Don- Reno, NV
I wonder how many of those they expect to sell? ::) Good luck getting that price. The designer couldn't even afford a muffler. ;)
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Anyone figure out yet if the Livewire has a Long Period Rest Mode for their battery similar to what Energica or the Zero SR/F have? So if you garage it for the winter you can put the battery to sleep and extend its long term life?
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Anybody know the LW main battery voltage?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I was able to work it out based on information supplied by the wonderful Troy Siahaan at motorcycle.com
The LiveWire will operate in the low 200s for voltage. I worked this out based on Troy's answer from an engineer at H-D that said the bike charges at 60A which its 1C rate. If we take the claim that the pack is 13.7kWh nominal then we use EXCITING MATH:
13700kWh / 60Ah = 228.3333v
The real question is whether or not if the battery drops to 0% SoC if the bike goes below 200v and will not be able to be revived at a CCS station, but will need to be trickle charged by a 110 wall plug to get it over 200.
edit- I actually have a source instead of pulling these numbers out of thin air. (https://www.hdlivewireforum.com/forum/8-harley-davidson-livewire-general-discussion/4473-ask-me-anything-motorcycle-com-road-test-editor.html)
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I was able to work it out based on information supplied by the wonderful Troy Siahaan at motorcycle.com
The LiveWire will operate in the low 200s for voltage. I worked this out based on Troy's answer from an engineer at H-D that said the bike charges at 60A which its 1C rate. If we take the claim that the pack is 13.7kWh nominal then we use EXCITING MATH:
13700kWh / 60Ah = 228.3333v
The real question is whether or not if the battery drops to 0% SoC if the bike goes below 200v and will not be able to be revived at a CCS station, but will need to be trickle charged by a 110 wall plug to get it over 200.
edit- I actually have a source instead of pulling these numbers out of thin air. (https://www.hdlivewireforum.com/forum/8-harley-davidson-livewire-general-discussion/4473-ask-me-anything-motorcycle-com-road-test-editor.html)
Actual data, awesome! And although the battery pack may drop below 200 VDC before it's considered at 0% SoC, I don't think that would be a problem. The BMS would just tell the CCS station to give it 200VDC, but subject to, say, 5A maximum, to trickle charge it past the proper threshold, then bump the voltage and current up for bulk charging as it gets into the midrange. I really doubt any CC/CV charger would have any heartburn about that.