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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: francifxs on June 16, 2019, 01:03:37 AM

Title: overheating
Post by: francifxs on June 16, 2019, 01:03:37 AM
I was wondering what is the actual part of the motorcycle that overheat when you ride hard. the motor? the battery? the controler?
and the temperature on the display come from what part?
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: Jarrett on June 16, 2019, 03:09:08 AM
I assumed it is from the motor, not sure. 

I overheat mine almost every ride, it seems.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: Richard230 on June 16, 2019, 06:39:33 AM
I am under the impression that the temperature shown on the display is for the inside of the motor.  But I also believe that you can configure the Zero app on your cell phone to show battery temperature.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: DonTom on June 16, 2019, 07:45:44 AM
Quote from: francifxs on June 16, 2019, 01:03:37 AM
I was wondering what is the actual part of the motorcycle that overheat when you ride hard. the motor? the battery? the controler?and the temperature on the display come from what part?
I would guess all of the above, with the battery being the main thing sensitive to overheating. IMO, the battery temperature should be right on the display.

Temp that is on the display is for the motor.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: flattetyre on June 16, 2019, 08:59:17 AM
If you ride on the track you will overheat the motor first even with IPM. It doesn't take long. Do some WOT runs on the street and see how much the temp rises for each short burst of full power. Now imagine stacking those together constantly.

Of course the batteries can overheat first if they were previously fast charged or ridden and charged in a hot climate. The batteries take a REALLY long time to cool down and are not well cooled.

The racing FXS marcel irnie rode up pikes peak used an oversized motor. I think this was specifically to increase thermal overhead and they didn't run much more power than stock.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: DonTom on June 16, 2019, 09:04:39 AM
Quote from: flattetyre on June 16, 2019, 08:59:17 AM
If you ride on the track you will overheat the motor first even with IPM. It doesn't take long. Do some WOT runs on the street and see how much the temp rises for each short burst of full power. Now imagine stacking those together constantly.
What motor temp is considered too high on our Zeros? I mean what temp should we stay below?

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: flattetyre on June 16, 2019, 09:18:56 AM
Quote from: DonTom on June 16, 2019, 09:04:39 AM
What motor temp

The bike will reduce / remove power before you can damage the motor. So you don't have to do anything other than get slightly upset about the lack of power while it cools down. I think it's around 130C that you get a big power reduction.

The Alta with its watercooled motor overheats the battery before the motor which I found interesting.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: MVetter on June 17, 2019, 03:41:44 AM
Quote from: flattetyre on June 16, 2019, 08:59:17 AM
If you ride on the track you will overheat the motor first even with IPM. It doesn't take long. Do some WOT runs on the street and see how much the temp rises for each short burst of full power. Now imagine stacking those together constantly.

Can confirm on basically every point. The bigger the battery the longer it will take for it to make ANY significant temperature changes, both in heating and cooling. Therefore it's a lot easier to overheat an FX with the single long brick than it is to overheat an SR with the monolith and power tank. Conversely the FX will cool down much quicker once overheated, etc.

If you want to see stuff REALLY overheat fast, ride a pre-IPM SR and punch it up a grade. It will hit thermal cutback in a matter of minutes.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 17, 2019, 04:24:18 AM
I realized the wiki doesn’t exactly have an article gathering this topic in one place. I’ll see about that.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: talon on June 17, 2019, 10:13:36 AM
Not to beat this to death but define "overheating". These bikes have quite frankly, amazing thermal management across the board given they are solely passively-cooled. The battery could use extra work in this design aspect, and at least the SR/F seems to indicate they've taken some notice.

While the bike can't help if you leave the black anodized aluminum battery casing in direct sunlight, [generally] by just riding and charging in average ambient temperatures it is extremely unlikely you would damage a stock bike's battery, controller, or motor by overheating. The power system can both derate and warn (via the dash) in stages based on temperature reached. The only risk I see here is the possibility of overshoot working against you. An example would be if my motor/controller/battery was hot and already in the last highest stage, and I put more load on it (and it heated more). The stage should derate the power enough to prevent it from overheating--but with the stages being at clearly defined limits, If our temperature was just barely in that last functioning stage at the boundary, it could swing higher as the heat spreads out and sensors "catch up".

What is likely is that running at higher temperatures frequently can cause accelerated wear. Battery cells perform better when warm to a certain limit but if they are kept warm continuously it will cause them to age quicker. The dash displays the indicated MOTOR temperature. Higher temperatures here could feasibly cause bearing wear if the temperature at the motor is enough to affect the grease/heat conduction in the bearing. Keep in mind the motor temperature should be being measured internally near the coils and not the external heatsink so the bearings may be less affected/insulated enough.

Quick reference from my bike (2016 SR, most data pulled from bike's settings):

MOTOR
Stage 1100C/212F
Stage 2145C/293F

BATT
Disabled Movement-30C/-22F
Disabled Charging0C/32F
Normal23F-109F
Charge Slows~43C/110F
Disabled Charging50C/122F
Damage60C/140F

Controller
Stage 170C/158F
Stage 275C/167F

Various dash lights accompany these temps, it's in the owners manual.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: Jarrett on June 17, 2019, 10:02:48 PM
I *think* my FX hits stage 1 at 250 and stage 2 at 270.  Just guessing on watching it happen over and over and over.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: togo on June 17, 2019, 10:46:08 PM
> Quick reference from my bike (2016 SR, most data pulled from bike's settings):

Thanks!  Always good to get the *facts* rather than guesses.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: togo on June 17, 2019, 10:48:06 PM
> If you want to see stuff REALLY overheat fast, ride a pre-IPM SR and punch it up a grade. It will hit thermal cutback in a matter of minutes.

Powering up nob hill, just one mile up hill, stop-and-go with regen, after coming up the freeway, will make my heat light blink briefly.  2014 SR, pre-IPM
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: talon on June 18, 2019, 02:27:51 AM
Also, I'm testing for abnormally high internal impedance/resistance with my battery. It performs well but seems to heat up faster than others would expect. Fast charging (not full 1C rate though) one time in the shade, on an 27C/80F ambient day, with chargers offboard will heat my battery to 50C before a full charge, in less than 45 minutes.

I also know if you ride with heavy regen on the highway the motor never gets a chance to cool so it runs a little hotter and the battery does as well (you are increasing your time at a slightly higher RMS current which means more heat)--best to coast on longer rides.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 28, 2019, 06:05:04 AM
I added a Quick Reference page for the various motor+controller+battery limit tables, with color-coding. Hopefully it's legible enough for roadside use.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Temperature_Limits

There should be a short article on overheating in general, but it'll probably be more like a quick troubleshooting roadside guide than anything else? Not sure where to go with the goal...
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: Jarrett on June 28, 2019, 07:55:52 AM
Are those right?  My overheat light starts flashing at 250 and goes solid at 270 if watching the temp meter on the dash.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 28, 2019, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: Jarrett on June 28, 2019, 07:55:52 AM
Are those right?  My overheat light starts flashing at 250 and goes solid at 270 if watching the temp meter on the dash.

They may vary per year. Someone has to take time to track all this information down to compare it across Owner's Manuals, etc.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: Jarrett on June 28, 2019, 06:28:22 PM
I looked in my DSR manual and didn't see anything.

I have to say that I appreciate that it is much harder to overheat the DSR than it is the FX.

I wonder if overheating the SR/F is even tougher.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: wavelet on June 29, 2019, 11:43:31 PM
I'm curious... Is there a reason why the bike doesn't have a fan at all? Sure, liquid-based cooling systems add weight & complexity, potential for leaks etc.
But a fan to force greater airflow is pretty simple -- just one moving part -- and adds little weight. My 150cc 2-stroke Vespa had one, and it's credited for a lot of the amazing reliability of that engine.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: Crilly on June 30, 2019, 12:00:37 AM
The SR-F has a battery charging fan.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: wavelet on June 30, 2019, 12:41:22 AM
Quote from: Crilly on June 30, 2019, 12:00:37 AM
The SR-F has a battery charging fan.
:-[ I somehow missed that in the various descriptions -- thanks...
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: NetPro on June 30, 2019, 08:55:38 AM
Quote from: Crilly on June 30, 2019, 12:00:37 AM
The SR-F has a battery charging fan.

And it is automatic too: I hear mine kick in after the charging has been going on for 15/20 minutes and stops occasionally for a few minutes.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: wavelet on June 30, 2019, 11:24:18 AM
Quote from: NetPro on June 30, 2019, 08:55:38 AM
Quote from: Crilly on June 30, 2019, 12:00:37 AM
The SR-F has a battery charging fan.

And it is automatic too: I hear mine kick in after the charging has been going on for 15/20 minutes and stops occasionally for a few minutes.
Well, obviously thermostat-controlled, but how else would they do it? You obviously don't want a still too-cold battery to be further cooled.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: NetPro on June 30, 2019, 04:59:05 PM
Quote
Well, obviously thermostat-controlled, but how else would they do it? You obviously don't want a still too-cold battery to be further cooled.

I guess you haven't owned or seen any of the many chargers where the fan runs all the time while charging.
Just to mention two, I have high-powered photographic flashes (umbrella type) with lithium batteries, and the fan runs as long as it is connected to mains.
My recently acquired car battery charger (not EV just standard 12 volts lead type) also runs continuously.

Granted, these are not motorcycles but it goes to show that many chargers have always-on fans
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: Auriga on July 01, 2019, 04:09:14 AM
The SR/F does not have a battery fan. The 3kW rapid charge units have a fan, which is thermostat controlled, to keep the chargers from overheating. If it gets too hot or the fan gets damaged, it will throttle charge current.
Title: Re: overheating
Post by: talon on July 06, 2019, 02:57:39 AM
I had an S with a charge tank as a loaner one time after my SR suffered a freak problem with the brake while backing up.. the charge tank had a fan that would run when the regular *onboard* charger was plugged in! It wasn't for the battery, I know that much.

dash lights may come on at different temps..