ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Home Brew => Topic started by: silverado on June 11, 2019, 06:55:34 AM
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Hello to everyone who read this lines,
Long story short:
I have some experience in motorbikes, mostly motocross and supermoto, but i have near to zero experience in electric motorbikes. I wonder if somebody had set up an electric engine in the front wheel of a bike with an engine, to make it hybrid and use the front wheel electric engine when you want combined with the internal combustion engine.
Where should i start? Could someone help me out to find the first things lis that i have to know and where to find examples of who has done it before?
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Hello to everyone who read this lines,
Long story short:
I have some experience in motorbikes, mostly motocross and supermoto, but i have near to zero experience in electric motorbikes. I wonder if somebody had set up an electric engine in the front wheel of a bike with an engine, to make it hybrid and use the front wheel electric engine when you want combined with the internal combustion engine.
Where should i start? Could someone help me out to find the first things lis that i have to know and where to find examples of who has done it before?
Maybe you can complete the SilentHawk Motorcycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilentHawk)for the US military.
Good luck!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Hybrid power trains for motorcycles are still in R & D territory.
The SilentHawk project is the closest to production I’m aware of. Traditional motorcycle manufacturers often patent designs with hybrid elements, but nothing has reached the light of day.
A series hybrid is probably best, with the combustion process feeding the electrical system (battery and motor), but the right power to weight ratio and size are a challenge, stacking it on top of a battery and motor and controller. Nothing off the shelf is going to fit that niche for most designs.
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Do scooters count? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2010/07/piaggio-mp3-hybrid-300ie/amp
It’s not dual wheel drive though
Bmw had a the same idea
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/bmw-two-wheel-drive-hybrid-motorcycle-concept-patent/
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Do scooters count? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2010/07/piaggio-mp3-hybrid-300ie/amp
It’s not dual wheel drive though
That’s from 9 years ago when the electric powertrain would have been awful. It might not have been a good design, unfortunately. The “Prius of motorcycles†is probably not attractive even at scooter power expectations.
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First of all good for you! Just because other people haven't done it doesn't mean that you can't. I would say first that the real question is what do you want to get out of this bike and why a hybrid vs. full electric. from there you can start to make sense of your project and what range you need/want. From there of course you can start looking at motor, engine, and battery sizes. Chances are if you are expecting amazing range and performance the bike will be quite expensive and heavy, however if you just want to learn or would like a modest city bike I think this would be a fun project for you.
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It shouldn't be all THAT difficult for a sufficiently knowledgeable and handy individual. I suspect the only real reason none of the manufacturers have done it so far is lack of demand.
Now, don't misinterpret or misquote me, I'm not saying it's going to be easy, quick or uneventful! But it should be do-able.
The other important question, though, is if the vehicle that results is worth having. You're talking about all the bulk and weight of one of our electric motorcycles, maybe a bit smaller battery, but you're adding a generator and charger (or a DC generator if you can find an appropriate one), and a fuel tank for the generator. You're going to package all that in a motorcycle frame? Doesn't seem very likely to be a very enjoyable or functional vehicle when you're done.
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I contemplated a similar idea using a slightly different drive plan.
I had thought to take a larger frame and put a 150-200cc engine and and a bldc motor to a secondary shaft linking all three necessary chains, engine, motor and back wheel, and the batteries in panniers racks, but, then rethought it when it came to handlebar control setup, essentially would need 2 throttles, either 2 ignition or a way to piggyback a double throw ignition for ice one side and electric other side, and just sheer complexity of the brake wiring to work for both kits at same time
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Hey,
I just found this old topic and if you're still interested, I have made a small hybrid bike 7kW electric 3hp ICE. I can post some more details and pictures if you want.
(https://i.ibb.co/yBLgRwd/20200905-133059.jpg)
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I can post some more details and pictures if you want.
Please! What parts are we looking at?
-Crissa
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This is a Honda-clone 50cc engine, they're very cool 4-stroke engines. 4 speed with manual clutch, just like a regular bike.
I added an electric motor (brushless) originally with 6kW, 8072 size, now 7kW 80100 size. The motor is the black part below the engine, with wires going to it. It always runs with the ICE-engine, it's connected via a timing belt onto the crankshaft.
(I know, this is unfortunately not able to really go fully electric, because it's always turning the engine) If you take the spark plug out, you can go electric for a few km, but it's intended for acceleration boosts.
The battery is made of high-discharge (45C+) Lipos. It's as small as possible to just provide the 7000W, since it is charged again immediately. It's around 190Wh.
Other than that...on the picture you can see a 120mm water radiator for the electric motor, which I added (the 6kW motor was air cooled). The controller is a VESC (200-300A @16S), but it's only pushing around 100A.
There's an ESP32 microcontroller for the control, I have all the data like temps, currents, voltage etc. on my phone via Bluetooth, and I can change power and charging settings, very similar to any electric motorcycle app.
DerKrawallkeks
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Nice!
It's a good balance to optimize the engine's preferred rpm and let the battery/motor deal with the spikes. Great design.
I see there's alot of empty space, which I wouldn't have expected. More room for battery?
-Crissa
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Well yes. It's mostly for fun, it's not really efficient enough, really help with shifting the engines load point. But the overall power is more than triple of what it was before, it's very similar to having nitro in a Need for Speed game:)
Where do you see empty space?
The battery is very small and it is carried on the rear of the bike. The motor is really small, and it's below the engine. The controller, computer, fuse, BMS and other stuff takes up a bit of space inside the frame.
(https://i.ibb.co/CJmg7zF/20201228-151149.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/BLvvvXp/IMG-20191001-WA0005.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/w7VXwf1/Screenshot-20201228-151523.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/3W0FWPv/DSC-0133-Kopie.jpg)
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Very nice! :) You should also post this on http://www.elmoto.net/. I think they would love to see how you integrated your electric motor into the bike's power train.
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Is that motor position where a starter motor would originally be, and if so can the new motor start the engine? When you say the battery is small because it's recharged immediately are you talking about regen?
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Wow that is a really cool project. Thanks for sharing.
Got any pictures of the full bike?
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@TheRan yes it's the same place that the starter was before. It had a chain and one way bearing, I put a htd timing belt. Yes the new motor can start the engine (with 1:1 reduction, very impressive what Hall sensors can do).
Yes, I don't call it regen, I call it charging. As soon as you don't use the boost, it immediately starts charging.
@caza here are some more pictures and a video clip
https://youtu.be/DfZVBXjbr0s
(https://i.ibb.co/dJxfLbt/20201229-094340.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/8XHBKM6/20201229-094418.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ggbXmV8/20201229-094426.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/60gxwJY/20201229-094608.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ggbXmV8/20201229-094426.jpg)
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Thanks for the pics and video. Really cool little bike you've got yourself there. Would love to see a race against the stock bike.
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No problem, I like it a lot myself:) I actually raced a 110cc Dax (same bike but 110 instead of 50cc), and it is faster at just 80A (of 100)
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Hey,
I recently put together a proper video (kind of..) of the Hybrid Dax.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksoX1-kwpso
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You're really committed when you're rewinding a motor! Wow.
-Crissa
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I ended up building a "hybrid" motorcycle back in 2019 as part of a school project. I put "hybrid" in quotations since I was not able to engineer the bike to run on the ICE while also battery. This bike will run full electric till depleted and then park, the generator turns on an recharges the bike. I realize this is a bit counter productive. Ideally it would be able to use battery until depleted and then the ICE generator would be able to run and power the bike (while staying mobile). My bike was not designed to that level of engineering but holds the principles that it could be accomplished with some additional systems. Anyways, I ended up using a 2010 Triumph America chassis, the electronics from a 2010 Zero S (batteries, motor, controller, etc.), a 4kW generac generator, custom made aluminum 72 tooth rear sprocket, cycle analyst, the Zero's Delta q charger, and a Meanwell RSP 3000 (Which I didn't end up using). With a 17 tooth front sprocket it ended up reaching a top speed of 81km/h. In total, it travelled 22.24km, at an average of 57.43 km/h and consumed 1891.5Wh. While maintaining 80km/h, the motor required 6338W and consumed 79.17Wh/km. These batteries unfortunately were tired and so only at about approximately 50% their original capacity.
This was a very fun project, I learned a lot, and was a really fun bike to ride! Unfortunately the bike has sat since, and now the battery pack has low voltage and not accepting a charge. It would be a really cool project to throw some leaf packs or newer technology into the bike but for now I do not have the time or money to do so. If anyone locally is interested in seeing it or purchasing the bike (for parts or upgrade) I'd be more than happy to connect. I also have plenty of pictures etc. happy to share.
Keep building and enjoying friends!
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Very cool, thanks for sharing!