ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: valnar on May 28, 2019, 04:48:15 PM
-
I'm on the fence about buying a 2019 FXS this year. I don't necessarily need one and could realistically wait until next year. Does anyone expect there will be another battery improvement?
-
I'd say there's a moderate chance that the battery will increase. Historically it's been every few years. Zero's been pretty close hold about the next model years' changes. The tech is still new enough that it's almost certain there will be notable improvements every year. Whether those improvements will be significant to you is pretty much impossible to predict. I'd say at least 99% of owners "don't necessarily need one and could realistically wait until next year." For me, I made the decision to buy when they sold a bike that would meet my desires and that I felt I could trust. I haven't lost any sleep over the incremental improvements from year to year that I "missed out" on because I've been able to enjoy riding.
-
Even if they did increase the battery say 25%, it would move the range from 40-60 miles a ride to 50-75 miles a ride. And increasing the weight of the bike from 289 to 315 lbs. If they did that, would that be the bike you want versus what is available today?
-
Even if they did increase the battery say 25%, it would move the range from 40-60 miles a ride to 50-75 miles a ride. And increasing the weight of the bike from 289 to 315 lbs. If they did that, would that be the bike you want versus what is available today?
It might... It's not just batteries. There could be a paradigm shift in features too. Lets face it, the FXS is on the borderline for range compared to their other models, so every little bit helps. I just wanted to take the pulse of those who have seen the changes over the years. Thanks!
-
Valnar, another aspect of their battery improvement pattern in the past has been to include the new battery in the premium "R" models and tickle down later.
It would all be guess work at this point. A bigger battery also usually means a price increase.
What most people have been talking about is with the new SRF coming out is will there be all new model platforms to follow?
Again all guess work at this point.
-
The FX models have a capability the other bikes in the line DON'T have: Swappable batteries. Even though the range isn't on a par with the S or DS models, you can keep a battery in your office on charge. When you get to work, replace the depleted battery in the bike with the freshly charged one at the office for the ride home. Recharge that one overnight, then repeat the next time in.
Also, unlike the other more expensive bikes, it isn't as big a deal to replace the battery when they no longer hold sufficient charge. In other words, get the bike NOW. In five years time when the batteries are no longer under warranty replace them with new ones which will likely have more capacity as well. I wish the other bikes in Zero's line had this kind of flexibility; I just can't stand the look of the FX models...
-
I just can't stand the look of the FX models...
Too sexy?
-
Jaime C your right it is possible but you have to get a "modular" model not the "integrated" model. The later model's battery can not be removed by the owner. But again after you buy the off board charger for the removable batteries and buy a second set of batteries you could have bought a SR.
You would just have to LOVE the feel of a lighter bike or either want to race it for that option to make sense.
-
If you find Mantis Shrimps sexy then maybe the FX is too sexy for some.
From what I see, you can still get the modular models:
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/
Don't know why you'd want otherwise, actually.
-
You can still get them. If I were really wanting one I might go the route of modular myself.
But...
The bike is $8495 and comes with just a 3.6kWh battery at that price.
Three more 3.6 kWh bricks are about $9000
The off board connector is $140
And a Quiq charger that is needed to charge externally is $600
So it's over $18k for that setup.
-
Buying THREE more bricks might be overkill. Just one should suffice. You could run the bike with both bricks for fun on weekends, and do the battery swap thing for commuting during the week. Either way, that's a choice you DON'T have with the non-modular bikes.
Plus, when the batteries eventually DO wear out, it is a helluva lot easier and less expensive to replace them as they are NOT an integral part of the bike like they are with the S/DS/SRF models.
-
You guys might want to check the FX range thread.
I'm not sure I could make it to the end of my street with a 3.6 :)
-
JaimeC the OP wants a bigger battery than the 7.2. He feels it may not be enough range for his ride. It wouldn't make any sense to ride on a 3.6 and swap that out as the 3.6 wouldn't even come close to getting him where he needs to be. The only benefit would come from having 4 bricks and external charging setup so he would really have 14.4kWh of capacity. And then only if he wouldn't be able to charge outside or wasn't at work long enough to get a full charge.
It's cool but Zero basically charges $1000 more to get the modular and the extra 3.6 brick to go with it over the price of the integrated 7.2.
-
Any improvement for next year will be marginal at most so go ahead and buy the bike.
Or if you don't like the specs go ahead and buy another bike. Even with a battery breakthrough tomorrow it will be years before you reap the benefits in your ev pack.
-
I'm still operating under the assumption that the SR/F was intended for 2020 release, but they bumped it up to preempt the LiveWire and Lightning Strike.
If that's true, (and if I remember the numbers correctly -- I'm too lazy to check), the baselines haven't changed. IIRC the SR/F has the same battery capacity as the 2018 SR.
Then again, the SR/F has a new battery design, for better cooling. So......never mind.
-
FXS battery size won't increase anytime soon.
- Last increase to 7.2 was recent enough.
- Battery density is maxxed out until one of the new technologies matures. Even SR/F didn't increase battery size -- thus its biggest drawback.
- Full focus has been on SR/F, and will be for some time.
- They might be pondering a dilemma how to converge the old and new platforms (FXS/F?).
- Incremental range increase doesn't make a dent in the FXS's use cases, and won't pay back in sales.
-
Regarding modular batteries, forget it. My FX came modular (2016), which I greatly appreciated. I occasionally took out the front battery for fun (-42 lb). But as the effort and range issues exceed the fun, I haven't had a battery out more than ~10 times.
In practice, removing batteries is not useful unless you're swapping during a race or stashing FX batteries in an enduro. Who does that (besides Zero employees in rare circumstances?) A more ridiculous scenario is carrying a battery into the office each day, much less two, after paying extra for a modular, extra for an external charger, and extra batteries (as if).
-
P. S. In my biased view, the FX/FXS are by far the best looking of the bunch. I can't stand to look at the other models. SR/F is a close second.
-
In practice, removing batteries is not useful unless you're swapping during a race or stashing FX batteries in an enduro. Who does that (besides Zero employees in rare circumstances?) A more ridiculous scenario is carrying a battery into the office each day, much less two, after paying extra for a modular, extra for an external charger, and extra batteries (as if).
For me it would be to remove them at that magical 60% SOC and bring them in the house on those few times a year it gets to 10-0 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm in Cleveland.
-
P. S. In my biased view, the FX/FXS are by far the best looking of the bunch. I can't stand to look at the other models. SR/F is a close second.
IMO, the red SR/F (https://u.cubeupload.com/DonTom/ZeroSRFsm.jpg) is by far the best looking bike Zero ever made.
However, I still care more about riding it than looking at it.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
It may just have been the battery case that was prettied up. Do we know?
-
For me it would be to remove them at that magical 60% SOC and bring them in the house on those few times a year it gets to 10-0 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm in Cleveland.
In subzero weather, I'd plug in right after a long enough ride. The battery cells would be warm from use, and the charging itself would keep them warm, until they got to 100% at which point they would freeze.
My friend had a Shorai lithium battery in his ICE bike. At 10F, it would not start. He'd run the headlights for 5 minutes, and then it would start.
-
It may just have been the battery case that was prettied up. Do we know?
It's more than prettied up, although the cell density seems to be the same.
I have an entire thread on technical information inferred from inspecting the bike and reading the owners manual... here's the most condensed information on the battery pack:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8758.msg75588#msg75588
-
FXS battery size won't increase anytime soon.
- Last increase to 7.2 was recent enough.
- Battery density is maxxed out until one of the new technologies matures. Even SR/F didn't increase battery size -- thus its biggest drawback.
- Full focus has been on SR/F, and will be for some time.
- They might be pondering a dilemma how to converge the old and new platforms (FXS/F?).
- Incremental range increase doesn't make a dent in the FXS's use cases, and won't pay back in sales.
Biggest drawback? Nah -- only able to charge with a single J1772 which, at least in the US, means two hour charging time.
-
If Zero FXS would get an SR/F improvement resulting in an FXS/F that would be huge.
Zero FXS would benefit a lot for several minor improvements, boost in range, power, top speed and rapid Charge time would really make me intrested in buying one.
-
Is there a historical list somewhere of the battery sizes that have been available?
I think I've read:
3.6
5.7
6.5
7.2
13.0
14.4
Are there any others? Was there something between 7.2 and 13.0 that utilizes the latest battery tech?
-
12.5 (2015) and 11.4 (2014) have been available too (double-brick version of 6.5 and 5.7 respectively) and the tech wasn't too different from the cells now used. It was rather a gradual improvement of cell chemistry and density that resulted in higher density, energy transmission efficency and less heat development (pls correct me, if I'm wrong).
-
I wondered if there was a 9.x battery they could slap into the FX for 2020.
-
Yeah. The FX doesn’t need 14.4, but something in the 9 range would be good and it’ll still be relatively lightweight.
-
There is space overhead with the FX modular's two ZF 3.6 packs, due to the cases and connectors and sliders and brackets. The ZF 7.2 monolith probably could have been ZF 8+, but it must have been simplified to support multiple models. They could do a permanently integrated ZF 9, wider and structural (why does it even need to be rectangular?), but then we're talking about a whole new battery and chassis.
-
A 9.x battery for the FX would be awesome, but I think a 6.6kw charger would help out a lot more than a slightly bigger battery.
-
I have a suspicion that they are too busy with the SR/F to do anything to the other models for 2020.
-
I'm kinda worried about the same thing. I did email them and ask if they were considering any kind of charger upgrade for the X platform that would retro-fit into the older chassis, and they responded but declined to comment. So dont know if thats good, bad or just a standard reply no matter what they are working on.
-
I'm kinda worried about the same thing. I did email them and ask if they were considering any kind of charger upgrade for the X platform that would retro-fit into the older chassis, and they responded but declined to comment. So dont know if thats good, bad or just a standard reply no matter what they are working on.
That's a standard reply for anyone who wants to avoid cannibalizing their current product sales - don't even reveal what you can or can't reveal.
-
Highly doubt battery increase in 2020 or 2021
-
'Still can't buy a Zero this year, regrettably, but hoping for a few changes to the FX/FXS models in 2020. Even if they can't upgrade the battery technology, an upgrade to the wimpy 650W charger would be welcome. A standard 15A outlet can safely handle twice that. At a mere 289 pounds a slight bump to just over 300# wouldn't hurt it if it added more range or function.
-
I'm buying a 2020 FXS regardless, I've been waiting for major changes and have realized that they only have small changes from year to year which honestly is fine with me at this point, the 2016 model was THE bike that got my interest in e bikes, I ain't getting any younger...
-
Highly doubt battery increase in 2020 or 2021
I agree. Since the sr/f is technically a 2020 model, I don't expect a battery upgrade till 2022. I hope I'm wrong though.
-
A 9.x battery for the FX would be awesome, but I think a 6.6kw charger would help out a lot more than a slightly bigger battery.
Unlil you have to walk a mile to the next charge station with a totally discharged battery . . .
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Yes. Indeed the best value are probably a good deal on a used model.
I'm buying a 2020 FXS regardless, I've been waiting for major changes and have realized that they only have small changes from year to year which honestly is fine with me at this point, the 2016 model was THE bike that got my interest in e bikes, I ain't getting any younger...
-
A 9.x battery for the FX would be awesome, but I think a 6.6kw charger would help out a lot more than a slightly bigger battery.
Unlil you have to walk a mile to the next charge station with a totally discharged battery . . .
-Don- Reno, NV
Don't you carry the 110V cord as a backup? Were you someplace that you couldn't ask to borrow a 110V outlet for an hour?
Hey, I visited Reno for the first time last weekend. There weren't a lot of Level 2 chargers, but all that I found were free. First day I charged in the University parking garage for a bit. Next day, there was that explosion at the University. Just saying -- totally not my fault 8).
-
Don't you carry the 110V cord as a backup? Were you someplace that you couldn't ask to borrow a 110V outlet for an hour? [/quote]Yes, I carry it, but I find 120 VAC outlets are difficult to find on the road.
Hey, I visited Reno for the first time last weekend. There weren't a lot of Level 2 chargers, but all that I found were free. First day I charged in the University parking garage for a bit. Next day, there was that explosion at the University. Just saying -- totally not my fault 8).
There are MANY J-1772 stations in Reno, see Plugshare. (https://www.plugshare.com/) And I think they are all free here in Reno. I have not been charged anywhere in Reno nor Sparks. In Sparks, such as at the City Hall and the Western Village Casino (https://www.westernvillagesparks.com/) (near the motel there in the parking lot). And also perhaps a few that are not listed anywhere, such as outside at The Generator parking lot (https://www.therenogenerator.com/). But many casinos as well as other places have J1772 here in Reno. But go north on 395 past Parr Ave and then there are none that I know of. But south of there and all the way to Carson City there are many Free J1772's. The Tamarack Junction (https://www.tamarackjunction.com/) is in south Reno and has a couple of dual chargers in the back parking lot. Also a 120 VAC outlet on one of them. And then next ones are several in Carson City. I have taken my little DS 6.5 to Carson City as there were enough charge stations to make the trip there and back even with it's limited range on a charge.
The ones I listed above are just a few of the many free J1772 stations in Reno, Sparks, Carson City.
You should have mentioned you would be here, if you had time for a quick meeting. I would like to meet more forum members when they are either here in Reno are in the Auburn, CA area while I am.
-Don- Reno, NV