ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: GaryArt1 on May 14, 2019, 06:33:24 PM
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So as I sit here patiently waiting on my first electric motorcycle, the SR/F, my mind wanders on random thoughts. The latest is on charging the SR/F. This is my opinion only. Keep in mind, this is my first experience with electric bikes so much of what I relate to is in my previous ICE bikes and overall life experiences. Feel free to correct me where I am wrong.
1. Level 1: This year they doubled the rate of level one charging. It went from approx 8 hours to 4. I am really glad they improved this. No matter where we live, L1 charging is the most prevelent, everyone has an outdoor outlet. It will be nice when I go to visit someone, I can plug in and charge up. With the increased charging rate, even a few hour visit can really boost the bike’s charge.
2. Level 2: This is now standard on the SR/F, where you used to have to buy the charge tank. So it takes about 2 hours which is not great but not really bad. If you are trying to use the bike for a long trip, yes 2 hour breaks are tough. It you pull into a charging station in a mall parking lot, grab lunch and do some shopping, 2 hours is nothing. Level 2 chargers are everywhere these days, at least in the Northeast US. They are cheap to purchase for home use. I have one of these at my house and am glad that I can get home from a ride, hook up, grab a bite to eat and go back out riding. I am very glad this is standard on the SR/F and can’t comprehend Harley’s decision to have Level 2 charging on Livewire charge at the rate of L1.
3. Level 3: Now here is where all the controversy comes in. So I know it would be nice to bring the 2 hours down to under an hour. This would be a must to level the playing feild with ICE bikes for longer trips. I know in parts of the country these are more prevelant but in the Northeast right now, they are few and far between. You will also not have this charging at your home being the expense of the charger. At first I was hoping for the SR/F to have the option of L3. I figured it would future proof the bike. No matter what, as electric vehicles become more prevelent, fast charging will become more widespread.
Now here comes the kicker. Lately I have been thinking I am glad it doesn’t have L3. Now here me out. I have always been one to upgrade, mess with and repair my toys are my own. Unless it is a major job, as long as I can find instructions, I plan on doing some of the repairs on the SR/F myself. Here’s the thing. From my days doing construction I had learned that doing electrical work will get you shocked once in a while. Do enough of it and it is unavoidable. I also learned that 120 volts will wake you up and make you know you are alive but rarely much more. Now working on 220 volt and higher may actually be very dangerous. My understanding is that in order to have L3 charging, you are talking about 220 volts and over. I am not sure if I would be comfortable tinkering on a 300 volt bike. Especially in the garage where no one would here me scream and hit the floor. It would probably take a day or so for my family to realize I never came in from the garage. So if I am correct in my facts, I am kind of glad Zero stayed with the lower voltage and L2 charging. Maybe in a few years when I am older and don’t want to do repairs myself, and L3 charging is everywhere, I may regret it. But right now I am happy with Zero’s decision.
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Not sure why or how you would get electricuted charging the bike.
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1) wouldn't you need to plug into two separate 120 volt "everyone's outdoor outlet" to double charging rate? Fx draws 10 amps, larger ones draw 13 or 15 don't they?
2) Harley is most likely not going to sell a lot of the bikes right away. Level 3 will most likely be available for the majority of the bike's useable lifespan. Perhaps reliability issues with on board chargers and fear of getting some name like b-last created. (Buell Blast)
3) Level the playing field with ICE, Are we discussing solo or a pack of motorcycles?
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Not sure why or how you would get electricuted charging the bike.
I am not worried about charging it. I am thinking more of repairs and any upgrades that iI would be able to do myself. My dealer is not really that convenient and if I can do something myself. So one option I would be thinking of is upgrading to the power tank. I’m not sure if that could be done myself (people on here said it is simple) or if self installed it would void the warranty. But if doable, this maybe something I would attempt over the winter.
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Not sure why or how you would get electricuted charging the bike.
Yep. That would be difficult to do even if one tried. The juice is not even turned on until the supply is actually connected to the vehicle.
Perhaps the most dangerous are the bikes with the 120 VAC side inlet as that that can be hot before connected unlike the other levels. My understanding is the SR/F does not even have that side AC inlet.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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They did not double the level 1 charging rate, this isn't possible from a level 1 source. If you plug the SRF into a wall outlet, it will still take about 8 hours to charge at roughly 1.3kw. The 4 hour time you mentioned is the base level 2 charger at 3kw. You need a L2 charger to get that time.
Also I think trying to "future proof" these bikes is kind of a silly idea. The EV market is evolving quickly, i think manufactures should build bikes for today, which is why i love how zero went with a good L2 option. In the future when there are abundant fast chargers, the rest of the technology will have improved too and people will want a new bike.
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GaryArt1...
Level 1 is still around 8 hours according to the manual. “Mode 1†is European spec. That’s 4.5 hours, same as US Level 2.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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GaryArt1...
Level 1 is still around 8 hours according to the manual. “Mode 1†is European spec. That’s 4.5 hours, same as US Level 2.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Got it. Thanks. I knew I learn more from you guys. I thought the standard SR/F could pull more from 120v than the 2019s but I now see the difference. Now if you had say a 220v 30 amp dryer or stove outlet available, would there be a way to use the supplied power cord to charge faster (in the US) or is this cord just for slow 120v charging?
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Not sure why or how you would get electricuted charging the bike.
Yep. That would be difficult to do even if one tried. The juice is not even turned on until the supply is actually connected to the vehicle.
Perhaps the most dangerous are the bikes with the 120 VAC side inlet as that that can be hot before connected unlike the other levels. My understanding is the SR/F does not even have that side AC inlet.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Ouch! That would hurt. I guess someone could stick their finger into that charge socket on the side of the bike. Glad sr/f did away with that.
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Got it. Thanks. I knew I learn more from you guys. I thought the standard SR/F could pull more from 120v than the 2019s but I now see the difference. Now if you had say a 220v 30 amp dryer or stove outlet available, would there be a way to use the supplied power cord to charge faster (in the US) or is this cord just for slow 120v charging?
I don't know about the supplied power cord, but there are ways to use a drier outlet, such as a drier outlet to J1772 adapter (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duosida-Level-2-Electric-Car-Charger-120v-220v-16-amp-J1772-10-30P-Dryer-Plug-/152483786319).
-Don- Auburn, CA
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level 3 sounds nice but to be honest you are up against possibly getting to a site and all slots are taken let alone the range really the SR/F boasts isn't going to make a charger speed difference amount to much. if you cannot go where you want it does not matter how fast you can charge
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also note that Level 3 is a DC-DC direct charging method......not a "more than 220VAC" way. You wont be installing a Level 3 charger at your house.
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also note that Level 3 is a DC-DC direct charging method......not a "more than 220VAC" way. You wont be installing a Level 3 charger at your house.
Pile up a bunch of external quick chargers and there is your DC to DC charging. But only around 117 VDC.
And I wonder if that qualifies as level 3 charging . . . Pile up enough chargers to charge at 1C or even a bit more, if the Zero batteries can handle it.
FWIW, I use a Tesla Wall Connector going to the Quick Chargers with an J-1772 adapter.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Zero's going to have to do a nearly complete redesign of their drivetrain to support level 3 charging. Not only is their battery pack voltage too low (I understand their reasoning for using a low battery voltage, but the industry has gone the other way), but they didn't design the battery pack for adequate cooling in the 1C++ range, and the cell they selected isn't rated for it anyhow.
These aren't things that will be solved by any amount of incremental improvement. It's a major redesign. I think Zero would be well-advised to do it sooner rather than later. L3 charging may not be critical today, but it's not going to be long before they won't be able to sell an electric vehicle without it.
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Doug S said it best with the fewest words, just like an engineer, huh.
GaryArt1, yeah way back when I was faced with cruel reality that you can't pull more than about 1.3kws from a house outlet even though they offer a 3kw charger with the bike. Feels like a kick in the gut but you'll recover.
Live with the bike for a while and see if you just can't live without level 2 charging from your home, then look at adding a Nema 14-50 RV style outlet and go off that. That will likely be the fastest home option they will offer for decades to come.
For now (but "now" may be a very short amount of time) level 2 is a good way for most of the country to charge these bikes for longer but not super long trips. The CCS plug gives you both options (a J1772 plug with DC on top) and will likely be the leader in fast charging for the next few years at least.
Note: Harley has a CCS inlet but not the level 2 charger so just level 3 DC charging for that one. Yes, it's a head scratcher.
MVetter has a nice write up in the General Discussion section about a race with high level 2 charging Zero vs level 3 on an Energica
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GaryArt1, yeah way back when I was faced with cruel reality that you can't pull more than about 1.3kws from a house outlet even though they offer a 3kw charger with the bike.
How did you come up with that? Most home 120 VAC outlets are good for 20 amps (2,400 watts). If you wanna use the 20% safety factor and only pull 16 amps, 1.920 watts.
Our bikes draw around 13 amps (1,560 watts) at 120 VAC. Half that current (6.5 amps) at 240 VAC.
You can always add 240 VAC to a house. I added 60 amps @ 240 VAC here for my Tesla. That is 14,400 watts max, 11,520 at 48 amps when the 20% safety is included.
I use this Tesla outlet with a J1172 adapter on two Zero Quick Chargers and the bike's internal charger (at the same time) so I do not have to run any extension cords.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Well first your right that things can be modified (within limits) to whatever you want. Your Tesla setup sounds very nice.
I'll freely admit I wrongly remembered my outlet breakers as 15 amps and your right they're 20 amps when I looked.
My garage voltage by my meter shows 112Vs so it's a bit low.
But I was going off the old Quiq chargers instructions to plug into another circuit than the onboard charger to keep from tripping the breaker.
My app claims both pull a total of 24 amps form time to time.
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Well first your right that things can be modified (within limits) to whatever you want. Your Tesla setup sounds very nice. I'll freely admit I wrongly remembered my outlet breakers as 15 amps and your right they're 20 amps when I looked.
My garage voltage by my meter shows 112Vs so it's a bit low.
But I was going off the old Quiq chargers instructions to plug into another circuit than the onboard charger to keep from tripping the breaker.
My app claims both pull a total of 24 amps form time to time.
Sometimes lights are on 15 amp circuit breakers but home outlets are generally on 20 amp breakers (@120 VAC). My Tesla "Wall Connector" is on a couple of 60 amp breakers (240 VAC) which means 14,400 watts max. (or 11,520 watts with the 20% safety factor).
112VAC sounds too low, especially if unloaded. I would check on another AC voltmeter and compare to your other outlets. Here, I measure 118.7 VAC (unloaded).
Yes, two Zero chargers at 120 VAC is a 26 amp load at max--should trip any 20 amp CB on a 120 VAC outlet. But on 240 VAC, they draw half that current and then three chargers should be okay from a single 240 VAC outlet. Or from a single J-1772 station on the road. When I take my SR (with Pwr Tank) on a long trip, I take two quick chargers with me and the cables to run all three chargers (bike included) from a single J-1772 station.
-Don- Reno, NV
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At my home I see 121 volts, unloaded. 118 volts with the on-board Zero charger plugged in.
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I thought i read in the facebook group that someone asked about L3 charging during one of the release events and Zero's response was that they kept the door open for a possible add on later if L3 charging became more prevalent. It didn't sound like a full retool at all.
But I don't know the ins and outs or what would make it not possible. Just something I thought I saw mentioned.
Zero's going to have to do a nearly complete redesign of their drivetrain to support level 3 charging. Not only is their battery pack voltage too low (I understand their reasoning for using a low battery voltage, but the industry has gone the other way), but they didn't design the battery pack for adequate cooling in the 1C++ range, and the cell they selected isn't rated for it anyhow.
These aren't things that will be solved by any amount of incremental improvement. It's a major redesign. I think Zero would be well-advised to do it sooner rather than later. L3 charging may not be critical today, but it's not going to be long before they won't be able to sell an electric vehicle without it.
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At my home I see 121 volts, unloaded. 118 volts with the on-board Zero charger plugged in.
That was what I had when I lived in San Mateo County. Just a little lower here in Reno for whatever reason, but I have never seen it anywhere I lived where it was as low as 112 VAC (unloaded).
-Don- Reno, NV
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...Zero's response was that they kept the door open for a possible add on later if L3 charging became more prevalent. It didn't sound like a full retool at all.
Well, what are they supposed to say when someone asks? I stand by my original comment. I strongly suspect it's going to have to happen sooner or later, and it's not going to go easy.
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The "hours to charge" thing can lead people to make wrong assumptions. Waiting for my SR/F but I've driven EVs for a few years now. Charge times are for 0-100%. You'll never do that on the road, not voluntarily. The rule is ABC, Always Be Charging. Stop for a quick break? Plug in. Just grab enough charge to feel comfortable. Plug in every chance you get.
Plan your route. Use Plugshare to find chargers. Avoid freeways. Avoid fast acceleration and speeds over the limit if you need to get maximum range. ECO mode won't save you from a heavy hand. Fast acceleration and aerodynamic drag are the biggest power eaters. Keep your tires fully inflated.
Learn how to use regen. That means go into regen only when you intend to slow down. In EV cars and I hear also on Zeros you can activate regen by simply applying enough brake to turn the brake lights on.
So, just save up enough juice that you have left over power to burn when you get to the fun part of the road.
And L3? Unless Zero changed the battery totally it ain't happening on this bike. Zero batteries run at about 100V and the Level 3 charging standards only go down to 200V.
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stuff
I might just copy and paste your thing elsewhere because this is literally the same thing I say over and over in different places when this comes up. I agree with everything you have written here.
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I left out:
Every time your brake pads touch the rotors you are throwing away capacity. Look ahead and plan. Use regen for most of your slowing when approaching a stop.
I don't know how strong or configurable regen is on the SR/F. I see there are adjustments that can be made through the app. Will probably add a seperate regen lever wired to brake lights. I'm sure I will try hypermiling the SR/F just for the challenge though it will be hard with all that TORQUE on tap. I can regularly get over 70 miles from my "53 mile" Volt.
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I am 100% with you on the regen, on our e-Golf I always drive in full regen mode and avoid using the brakes as much as possible. However, if I do hit the brakes the regen gauge increases so not only friction brakes are used but the "regenerator" as well.
So this brings up a question that I have not really seen an answer for yet: on the SR/F (or any Zero for that matter) - does pulling the brake lever go 100% to the friction brakes OR does it also create regenerative charging?
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I am 100% with you on the regen, on our e-Golf I always drive in full regen mode and avoid using the brakes as much as possible. However, if I do hit the brakes the regen gauge increases so not only friction brakes are used but the "regenerator" as well.
So this brings up a question that I have not really seen an answer for yet: on the SR/F (or any Zero for that matter) - does pulling the brake lever go 100% to the friction brakes OR does it also create regenerative charging?
AFAIK, the brake light activates the regen regardless of anything else. But the brake light switch should be set so regen is activated before the brake pads make contact to the disk. So just enough braking for the brake light should be regen only, making adding a regen switch unnecessary.
-Don- Reno, NV
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DonTom the 112V reading was from my old Kill A Watt while charging so yes under load. I put my multi meter on it and got the same 118V so it's good.
There are separate regen options for throttle off and braking regen so the default is 100% braking regen but could be lowered for some unknown reason.
I still hope thy change the charge tank option to include 2 J1772 inlets. I know they said no but I feel that will disappoint people who don't have the faster single charge stations but could double plug and get what they want.
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Would love a confirmation that Zero has blended braking, the term applied when the brakes first engage regeneration before the pads even move.
Blended braking is probably the only feature I miss from my Volt that is not on my TM3
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Would love a confirmation that Zero has blended braking, the term applied when the brakes first engage regeneration before the pads even move.
Blended braking is probably the only feature I miss from my Volt that is not on my TM3
I had both my 2014 S and my 2018 S set up with a custom program that has no regen with the throttle closed and maximum regen with the front brake lightly applied. As near as I can tell, the regen and brake light are activated without causing any braking if the lever is just touched lightly. Also, maximum regen seems to be stronger when it is set to 100% in the custom program than when braking in the factory's "eco" mode setting. :)
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There are separate regen options for throttle off and braking regen so the default is 100% braking regen but could be lowered for some unknown reason.
IIRC, the sport mode only has deceleration regen and no braking regen. But I set my custom mode for almost the opposite, 100% braking regen and almost no deceleration regen. Works better for higher speeds to be able to coast better. But when you must slow down, might as well have all the regen you can get. And more regen on braking should save the brake wear by quite a bit.
But with the brake light, I was only mentioning the brake regen, of course. I think all it does is let the deceleration regen go to more regen while braking, by using the juice for the brake light as a trigger. I figure they both do the same thing, work the same way, but the percentages can be set independently from each other.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Thank you guys, good to know.