ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Aikirob on May 07, 2019, 11:13:11 AM
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I'm interested in adding a 240 volt power socket to my motorcycle in order to power anything I need on the go, I've seen this done in a car before with an inverter so I'd like to know if it can be done with our motorcycles? would be an interesting addition as you could then potentially share your power with another zero rider or use your bike as a portable power station.
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You can find 12 V to 220 V inverter on the market so the answer is probably yes...
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I'm interested in adding a 240 volt power socket to my motorcycle in order to power anything I need on the go, I've seen this done in a car before with an inverter so I'd like to know if it can be done with our motorcycles? would be an interesting addition as you could then potentially share your power with another zero rider or use your bike as a portable power station
It depends on what you want to power. It will only handle very low wattage, but it will work fine otherwise. I would suggest using a pure sinewave inverter, such as this one. (https://www.zoro.com/aims-power-pure-sine-inverter-300w-12v-wcables-pwri30012s/i/G4429997/feature-product?gclid=CjwKCAjw2cTmBRAVEiwA8YMgzf5xMBuiPtemzVhmttG-nXS3dW4nMB2OEfE8FTbIwLS5DRLnpXuvChoCWcIQAvD_BwE) While the sinewave will not help with the low power limitation, it will solve all other possible problems. Since the smaller pure sinewave inverters are MUCH cheaper than the larger pure sinewave inverters, go for it.
The so-called cheaper "modified sinewave" inverters are really a modified squarewave and such can harm sensitive equipment and also reduce charging capacity, etc, when trying to charge some items from 120 VAC. But in most cases, even they work fine, but no need to chance it since rather cheap small true sinewave inverters are available. But the MSW inverters are about half the price of true sinewave inverters, but for a reason! Not worth the risk, IMO, to buy a MSW inverter. Go for the True SW.
You did say 240 VAC. I assume you're in Europe. I think the one I showed above is 120 VAC, so look for the 240 VAC version of a pure sinewave inverter.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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Not that I'd personally recommend doing it, but you could always tap directly into the battery with a 96V input inverter. They're not nearly as common as 12/24/48V input inverters, but they do exist:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3500W-Car-Power-Inverter-72-96V-DC-to-120V-220V-AC-Pure-Sine-Wave-Solar-Inverter/232901164836?hash=item3639fdbf24&enc=AQADAAADAFjVrDbVsZ8oH%2F8PNHtt9VX4%2Fw7FZcmMuqsX8uaFEduVnmPDS99ztCCz8jnL0c8bLt1dIVHU9LBhzvlQLts3FQZfdv%2BMdo9R3%2FFPj7RCxdCl0CN8B0Kht0DyhnUiyqlWwkVNxByUHLGrlc99CRazvr9Zo4CCNxJY61aHf7Tq%2FyJCqlPoj3PfGBo4U2GUfxhqc76d82XUCeLm9YVdHqjdUBLCjqR2404A7b5KkBB3xltd6G4Rrs2EOG1xqA6AIrHp1ZfkS1QAfVcyVNDqWtbSS3zRKk59xd9cGtsF1Kj5bWF146Y4AxfJfBBdZCYk%2FaCuzl9xwAYyyyIOfs3XQFb0oSI5QikBCE4djJf9odSG1B7NLhMhZRbNA99E0qP7CCUsvTcmr8BAPAXGomUlltxV0Rn4RcobUYIWgo3cd4ZEjFbN2VAaHjJ2ruzHRJpJ3VmZdeT%2B%2Bf1UG9DJXdbcKAQvyule1dciTkUli5HBW3Nu7ePdoccjnf0DOurafY%2BlSJAEigHesFCL6%2BCtVYfO2Q9aOw95OaWnmWOVb%2Bgw5WbqkrMeqsJXqmyRz0aYYFXo%2FPxt4n0eEqND4Mk%2BpbKFw6ZsSpFmypIB7ZmKf6djtA6FvQTAE0rygoEwycWes5%2BY%2BSrlq8KVBBEUo9aLy%2BlJaGJnjjOCuzXoOodmys%2FbPylGRquBq%2Bz6zZaHXgG1dCylhUH2XDEk%2BZuqUh6XyMzLjblHzZ4IXhkJFpR5u0FskbSi%2F%2FckcaCVLm8owxYs80A%2BSnrcqutELBiqVtsA0XMhRdjG%2BQII7DpjA12uFGDUd%2BhhlEXspWp6CQUcDLRYWfHvZfRNRGh5axr1TRFN28%2Fn9MK%2FrKXyzjatxF6rWNQ3M4GEx15PqvQ90x3ILnKCIg7hS%2Fgqj0jcKZYvRHa1ElwlVJsYayxx%2B8qD8JSG1IWkETBWfd5Xfkown7ehNenNgf6Vabf7hWJJE%2BsY2KGUz3ujVRF58bHTkYGpR3IlI9sOOvlzBBWmBHLxHFohaLPcYG1yJiS3yA%3D%3D&checksum=232901164836a92658a036dc4b3eae1efc5a4e95aaa6
Of course by not going through the on-board 350W (?) DC-DC converter, you can provide a hell of a lot more output current. I really can't imagine doing this myself, and I can't see how it would be useful, but it should be possible.
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Not that I'd personally recommend doing it, but you could always tap directly into the battery with a 96V input inverter. They're not nearly as common as 12/24/48V input inverters, but the do exist.
Of course by not going through the on-board 350W (?) DC-DC converter, you can provide a hell of a lot more output current. I really can't imagine doing this myself, and I can't see how it would be useful, but it should be possible.
Good idea as long as it will have a 240 VAC output and can handle the full 106.5 VDC of a Zero battery (the "96 volt" chargers sold by Zero are nothing near 96 VDC, they are more than ten volts higher).
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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Good idea as long as it will have a 240 VAC output and can handle the full 106.5 VDC of a Zero battery (the "96 volt" chargers sold by Zero are nothing near 96 VDC, they are more than ten volts higher).
220VAC, 240VAC...tomato, to-mah-to.
This chinese unit doesn't show its full specs, but inverters are always designed for a wide range of DC input voltages. They run either off of batteries, which can vary considerably from nominal voltage, or solar panels, which vary even more. A nominal 24VDC solar panel can provide 40VDC under bright sun and light load, and the inverters are designed to accommodate that and a good safety margin besides. If you scroll down on the page I posted, you'll notice that at one point they refer to "110V" input rather than 96.
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Good idea as long as it will have a 240 VAC output and can handle the full 106.5 VDC of a Zero battery (the "96 volt" chargers sold by Zero are nothing near 96 VDC, they are more than ten volts higher).
Where did you get 106.5V ? If I'm not mistaken, Zero uses 28S configuration. With 4.2v max per cell that's 117.6v at full charge, and 78.4v at full discharge. Of course the cells aren't cycled in their full range (some folks may have posted the detailed numbers), but even 4.1 - 3.0 per cell gives us 114.8 - 84 volt range for the pack.
The other question for the OP is whether he talks about 240v US split phase and 60Hz or some other 2xx variant of different frequency and/or phase configuration. I agree that simplest and most practical solution is to keep the load under 300W and use 12VDC inverter. Bypassing DC-DC would work otherwise, but is likely impractical given the size of the inverters with that power range and voltage.
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Where did you get 106.5V ? If I'm not mistaken, Zero uses 28S configuration. With 4.2v max per cell that's 117.6v at full charge, and 78.4v at full discharge. Of course the cells aren't cycled in their full range (some folks may have posted the detailed numbers), but even 4.1 - 3.0 per cell gives us 114.8 - 84 volt range for the pack.
The other question for the OP is whether he talks about 240v US split phase and 60Hz or some other 2xx variant of different frequency and/or phase configuration. I agree that simplest and most practical solution is to keep the load under 300W and use 12VDC inverter. Bypassing DC-DC would work otherwise, but is likely impractical given the size of the inverters with that power range and voltage.
Yep. I meant 116.5 VDC, not 106. That was the voltage that I measured on my battery a while back at full charge (IIRC--I thought it was at full charge, perhaps not). So perhaps 117.6 VDC is correct. It was more than a year ago when I measured it.
So it's more than 20 volts higher than that "96 VDC" it says on my Zero Quick-chargers.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yep. I meant 116.5 VDC, not 106. That was the voltage that I measured on my battery a while back at full charge (IIRC--I thought it was at full charge, perhaps not). So perhaps 117.6 VDC is correct. It was more than a year ago when I measured it.
So it's more than 20 volts higher than that "96 VDC" it says on my Zero Quick-chargers.
It is pretty standard practice to undercharge Lithium Ion cells to extend their lifespan. So it's unlikely that any Zero pack would go to full 117.6V. Now when it comes to DeltaQ chargers, they're also labeled based on the nominal voltage of the pack they're intended to be used with. I haven't looked at 96V version, but I have a 48V version that has been programmed with Lithium charging profiles and one of the top one goes to 65.6V. When you switch on the DeltaQ, it's expected to flash its 2 or 3 digit profile number on one of the indicators. Once you decode what number it is flashing, you can lookup the algorithm by its number to see what the actual voltage is going to be.
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It is pretty standard practice to undercharge Lithium Ion cells to extend their lifespan. So it's unlikely that any Zero pack would go to full 117.6V. Now when it comes to DeltaQ chargers, they're also labeled based on the nominal voltage of the pack they're intended to be used with. I haven't looked at 96V version, but I have a 48V version that has been programmed with Lithium charging profiles and one of the top one goes to 65.6V. When you switch on the DeltaQ, it's expected to flash its 2 or 3 digit profile number on one of the indicators. Once you decode what number it is flashing, you can lookup the algorithm by its number to see what the actual voltage is going to be.
I wonder why they don't give the possible voltage range instead of saying "96 volts". That is more than 20 volts off from reality with our Zero's.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I wonder why they don't give the possible voltage range instead of saying "96 volts". That is more than 20 volts off from reality with our Zero's.
DeltaQ has been around for quite some time, and many of their chargers are used with Lead-Acid batteries that don't have such a huge swing in voltage between charged and discharged states. 8 lead-acid 12 volt batteries in series would have something like 101.6V fully charged, and 91.2V fully discharged, and of course somewhere between 96 and 97 volts when charged to 50%.
But even then, the nominal voltage of 28S NMC cell will be something like 100.8v (3.6V per cell), which isn't all that far from 96v.
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I've done a similar thing a couple of years ago using a Siemens UPS built for 4s lead-acid batteries so about 96v nominal, if I remember correct the model I used is this; http://www.arifidenza.it/Public/data/ik1xpp/201093133641_a.pdf Siemens Masterguard A Series 3000, which could deliver a decent sine wave at about 2500w continuous. What I also discovered was that the Zero DS 2013 I was using were fine emptying the battery to the inverter instead of the motor controller as long as you gave it a spin (had the rear wheel hanging of the ground) at least once/hour, if not it went in to some kind of standby mode. I used it a couple of times running a small venue with soundsystem, lights, backline and control booth and did not have any problems really.
The picture is from when I first tried it out with some restive dummy loads, the UPS was connected straight to the dc-link at the motor-controller terminals. The nice thing about that specific UPS, more than being one of the few that can handle the Zero voltage span, is that it has quite small transformers, probably high switching speed, so without the default battery it's quite light for the amount of power compared to other UPS's.
Even tried charging a Nissan Leaf a few times with this setup :)
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@pysen: You're a brave soul! I don't think I'd ever put my personal machine to that sort of use. I'd figure out how to lug around 4 AGM batteries (perhaps tow a small trailer) before I'd do that.
One question though....4S lead-acid batteries is generally 48V nominal. Are you sure the inverter you were using wasn't rated for 8S?
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Hehe. You're right, 8s lead-acid off course, my bad.
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DeltaQ has been around for quite some time, and many of their chargers are used with Lead-Acid batteries that don't have such a huge swing in voltage between charged and discharged states. 8 lead-acid 12 volt batteries in series would have something like 101.6V fully charged, and 91.2V fully discharged, and of course somewhere between 96 and 97 volts when charged to 50%.
But even then, the nominal voltage of 28S NMC cell will be something like 100.8v (3.6V per cell), which isn't all that far from 96v.
IOW, they are just being too cheap to change the "96 volt" stamp just for our Zero motorcycles.
-Don- Reno, NV
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IOW, they are just being too cheap to change the "96 volt" stamp just for our Zero motorcycles.
Change it to what ? It is an industrial programmable charger that supports 10 charge profiles and up to 135V of output. I think you're just being difficult for no particular reason :)
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Change it to what ? It is an industrial programmable charger that supports 10 charge profiles and up to 135V of output.
So why doesn't it say so? Why pick "96 volts"? Is it just a meaningless random number for its output voltage which has nothing to do with reality?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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So why doesn't it say so? Why pick "96 volts"? Is it just a meaningless random number for its output voltage which has nothing to do with reality?
t's almost a meaningless random number. A "battery", 60 years ago or more, was six lead-acid cells strung together in series. Cell voltage varies a fair amount with state of charge, load, temperature and other parameters, but 2V was considered "nominal", so six strung together makes a "12V" battery. "Standard batteries" strung together give 24, 48, 96V. Those remain the standard values to this day. They're imprecise, inaccurate, they move around. But what would you propose that's more "connected to reality"? Batteries are extremely real, a voltmeter is only a measurement instrument. Reality can be inconvenient.
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So why doesn't it say so? Why pick "96 volts"? Is it just a meaningless random number for its output voltage which has nothing to do with reality?
t's almost a meaningless random number. A "battery", 60 years ago or more, was six lead-acid cells strung together in series. Cell voltage varies a fair amount with state of charge, load, temperature and other parameters, but 2V was considered "nominal", so six strung together makes a "12V" battery. "Standard batteries" strung together give 24, 48, 96V. Those remain the standard values to this day. They're imprecise, inaccurate, they move around. But what would you propose that's more "connected to reality"? Batteries are extremely real, a voltmeter is only a measurement instrument. Reality can be inconvenient.
Thanks for that info. Now I understand why they call it 96 volts, as batteries like 12 volt increments and have nothing to do with reality, just the name that is used.
However, it still seems improper to me. But I do understand "110 VAC means ~117 VAC" and that a 2x4 does not measure 2" by 4" and etc.
But IMO, they should use accuracy where possible. But even our 12VDC car batteries are closer to 13 VDC when fully charged.
But all these are rather small differences compared to a battery charger that is 117 VDC called "96 volts". That is off by about 23% from what it says, which seems rather unacceptable to me.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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However, it still seems improper to me. But I do understand "110 VAC means ~117 VAC"
No, it doesn't mean that.
But all these are rather small differences compared to a battery charger that is 117 VDC called "96 volts".
For the second time, you don't have a 117V battery, you have a 100.8V battery.
That is off by about 23% from what it says, which seems rather unacceptable to me.
LOL, whatever.
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No, it doesn't mean that.
Many people call ~117 VAC as "110 VAC". You must have seen such yourself, at least if you're in the USA.
For the second time, you don't have a 117V battery, you have a 100.8V battery.
100.8? Did you measure yours on a full charge?
-Don-
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The voltage at my garage wall outlet measures 121 Volts, which drops to 118 Volts when the bike is charging.
My Zero app says that, when fully charged, my battery pack's voltage is 116 V.
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Dude, it's a charger intended for 8s lead-acid battery strings, 96V nominal. It's been co-opted to charge our battery packs because it has enough adjustability to charge our batteries up to 114VDC (at least originally, that's what my 2014 SR charged to). Why whine that they should call it something else?
And you know that a nominal "96V" lead-acid battery pack is more like 105.6V (13.2V per cell) when charging, 102.4V (12.8V) when fully charged but open circuit, and considerably lower (maybe 80V, 10V per cell) when near discharged, especially when loaded. It's still a "96V" battery pack, no volt meter is going to change that. It's just terminology, nobody's claiming it's precise language.
As far as line voltage is concerned, my understanding (Horowitz and Hill, "The Art Of Electronics") is that residential voltage is nominally (there's that word again) 117VAC, or twice that, 234VAC. You're also smart enough to know that there are considerable variations from that, +- 15% or even more sometimes. "110VAC" and "220VAC" is just the terminology we use, nobody's saying there's anything precise about those values.
If you want to whine, whine about something worth whining about, like why your car says it's "empty" when there's still two gallons left in the tank.
We've drifted way off topic, anyhow. We all owe the OP an apology.
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Many people call ~117 VAC as "110 VAC". You must have seen such yourself, at least if you're in the USA.
Many people say "off of", but it's not proper English either. We have two numbers at this time that are actually relevant:
120V - generating equipment is putting out that voltage. After some transmission drop the actual voltage may be lower. But inverters, generators, UPSes sit much
closer to the consumer equipment and will deliver such voltage.
115V with 10% tolerance - that's what consuming equipment is designed to operate on.
100.8? Did you measure yours on a full charge?
Batteries are not identified by full charge voltage. They are identified by nominal voltage - voltage at 50% charged state.
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Dude, it's a charger intended for 8s lead-acid battery strings, 96V nominal. It's been co-opted to charge our battery packs because it has enough adjustability to charge our batteries up to 114VDC (at least originally, that's what my 2014 SR charged to). Why whine that they should call it something else?
Two reasons to "whine":
1. It is not used on a lead acid battery in our case.
2. It is not 96 VDC, but significantly higher in voltage.
-Don- Auburn, CA