ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Lightning => Topic started by: JaimeC on March 20, 2019, 10:54:01 PM
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Today is March 20. There are only 11 more days left in the month. Nothing new on the Strike since the last announcement regarding charging options...
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Impressive. It's going to be interesting to see these things on the road: https://electrek.co/2019/03/28/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-launch/
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That is an extraordinary electric motorcycle. They're offering a 20kWh battery and L3 charging for under $20,000. Not to mention 180 ft-lbs of torque.
My only real concerns now are if they've figured out a way to sell and service them. If they've figured out reasonable channels, I'm going to have to seriously consider my next electric bike not being a Zero.
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Funny thing - Zero started with electric enduro. FX/FXS still are the best on their segment (and in the 10k range)
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That is an extraordinary electric motorcycle. They're offering a 20kWh battery and L3 charging for under $20,000. Not to mention 180 ft-lbs of torque.
My only real concerns now are if they've figured out a way to sell and service them. If they've figured out reasonable channels, I'm going to have to seriously consider my next electric bike not being a Zero.
I think I'll let other brave souls be the "Beta Tester" for a brand new product from a relatively untried supplier...
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That is an extraordinary electric motorcycle. They're offering a 20kWh battery and L3 charging for under $20,000. Not to mention 180 ft-lbs of torque.
My only real concerns now are if they've figured out a way to sell and service them. If they've figured out reasonable channels, I'm going to have to seriously consider my next electric bike not being a Zero.
Yes, those are good open questions.
On top of that, if 20kWh and L3 charging could be delivered in a model where I could sit upright and still benefit from a fairing...
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That is an extraordinary electric motorcycle. They're offering a 20kWh battery and L3 charging for under $20,000. Not to mention 180 ft-lbs of torque.
My only real concerns now are if they've figured out a way to sell and service them. If they've figured out reasonable channels, I'm going to have to seriously consider my next electric bike not being a Zero.
They claim they'll deliver the 20KWH one first, starting in July, but you have to pay half now if you want one.
I've added Lightning Strike Carbon to my long range electric motorcycle comparison spreadsheet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yWRS4EHtyGPexF4lcX4nlG5bTlSQ7Oh7tBTWL5zlbPo/edit?usp=sharing
I've also sorted the columns in order of availability, Harley Davidson is at the end, of course. Lotta smoke and thunder from over there.
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How is the curb weight only 20lbs heavier with an additional 5kWh of battery storage? Carbon fiber must permeate that model to save (let's say) 50lbs.
Or for that matter, only 10lbs heavier for the mid range model over the standard, with 5kWh extra capacity.
I'm skeptical.
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On top of that, if 20kWh and L3 charging could be delivered in a model where I could sit upright and still benefit from a fairing...
Amen. I like to flatter myself that I'm not TOO old to ride a sportbike, but is there some reason that there are NO "cruiser" or "standard" choices in this market space?
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DougS, Look up the Brutus V9 electric cruiser by Bell Custom Cycles.
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Also Energica sells standards.
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Is anyone else wondering about that $10K reservation fee on the carbon bike? Protomech mentioned this on Twitter and I have to agree with him. Absent a contract stating that this amount goes into an escrow fund, it's highly likely that the money will be used to fund operations. Risky investment, if you ask me.
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That is an extraordinary electric motorcycle. They're offering a 20kWh battery and L3 charging for under $20,000. Not to mention 180 ft-lbs of torque.
My only real concerns now are if they've figured out a way to sell and service them. If they've figured out reasonable channels, I'm going to have to seriously consider my next electric bike not being a Zero.
I read somewhere that torque will be limited to 30% until you reach a certain speed. Can anyone confirm this? 180 lb torque seems like overkill, but the 30% figure seems like it'll be too slow.
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That is an extraordinary electric motorcycle. They're offering a 20kWh battery and L3 charging for under $20,000. Not to mention 180 ft-lbs of torque.
My only real concerns now are if they've figured out a way to sell and service them. If they've figured out reasonable channels, I'm going to have to seriously consider my next electric bike not being a Zero.
I read somewhere that torque will be limited to 30% until you reach a certain speed. Can anyone confirm this? 180 lb torque seems like overkill, but the 30% figure seems like it'll be too slow.
I believe that statement came from the prototype review posted a couple of days ago, which was apparently a review of a not a very close example of the production Strike. I think that statement is somewhere in this article:
https://www.cyclenews.com/2019/03/article/lightning-strike-prototype-review/
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Found it, thanks.
“So the first 50% of throttle movement accesses less than 30% of the torque, but then when you want to push it harder, as you go up from the other 50% of throttle rotation as measured by a potentiometer inside the handlebar, it progressively delivers more and more torque.
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Found it, thanks.
“So the first 50% of throttle movement accesses less than 30% of the torque, but then when you want to push it harder, as you go up from the other 50% of throttle rotation as measured by a potentiometer inside the handlebar, it progressively delivers more and more torque.
At least that is apparently the way it was on the prototype mule. But that may not be the case on the production Strike. ???
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So the upshot is, the torque delivery is non-linear to the throttle position. That's probably a good thing. Human senses tend to be more logarithmic than linear anyhow, so it might feel more intuitive, in addition to helping keep people out of trouble with that monster torque delivery. Most people aren't going to whack the throttle open without knowing what they'e doing and being ready for it.
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> ... as measured by a potentiometer inside the handlebar, ...
Um, not hall effect?
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Here is a brief comparison between the Lightning Strike and the Energica Ego. Bottom line is the Ego is more expensive but you get a lot more electronics.
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Here is a brief comparison between the Lightning Strike and the Energica Ego. Bottom line is the Ego is more expensive but you get a lot more electronics.
To be fair, Lightning may not have revealed every detail yet.
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Here is a brief comparison between the Lightning Strike and the Energica Ego. Bottom line is the Ego is more expensive but you get a lot more electronics.
To be fair, Lightning may not have revealed every detail yet.
Of that I have no doubt. ;) I think there is still a lot of mystery hidden under that fancy sportbike plastic. ???
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They claim they'll deliver the 20KWH one first, starting in July, but you have to pay half now if you want one.
I've added Lightning Strike Carbon to my long range electric motorcycle comparison spreadsheet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yWRS4EHtyGPexF4lcX4nlG5bTlSQ7Oh7tBTWL5zlbPo/edit?usp=sharing
I've also sorted the columns in order of availability, Harley Davidson is at the end, of course. Lotta smoke and thunder from over there.
Really nice work on the sheet. I hope edits are okay as it's open for editing - I've added some information about range and charging speeds. I can back these out if not wanted.
This is what I want to see from electric bikes in 2019 - effective fairings for efficient highway riding, large-format batteries, and L3 charging. Basically my personal dream punchlist, and what I think electrics need to really move beyond a commuter product and reach mainstream bikers.
I hope Lightning can deliver, but I don't believe they can. Here are some of my concerns:
1. The specs are incredible - well beyond what Energica and Zero offer.
20 kWh battery, carbon fiber fairings, $$$ components, L3 charging, 6 kW L2 charger.. for less than the 12 kWh Zero SR-F Premium.
2. The battery weights don't make sense.
To the best of my knowledge, Alta (RIP) had the densest production battery at 185 Wh/kg.
Let's say Lightning has 200 Wh/kg. That's 55 pounds difference between 10, 15, 20 kWh batteries.
Lightning claims a difference of 10 lbs between 10 and 15 kWh models, and 20 lbs between the 15 and 20 kWh models.
3. The prices don't make sense.
$13k - 10 kWh Standard Range
$17k - 15 kWh Mid Range, same equipment as Standard Range
$20k - 20 kWh Carbon Edition, adds carbon fiber fairings, 6 kWh L2 charger ($1500 alone), L3 CCS support ($1500 alone), Brembo and Ohlins components, upgraded dash, etc.
I don't see any compelling reasons to buy the midrange bike.
4. The reservation deposit is fully refundable - provided the company has funds to return - but is not held in escrow and will clearly be used for development.
I would regard any reservations as a donation to the company in order to secure an earlier bike should it make it to production.
As I said - I hope Lightning makes it to production and can profitably produce the Strike. Their racing bikes still hold records, and they've been operating in the EV space for close to 10 years but have not yet offered a mass production bike.
Remember what happened with Mission - let's hope for more success for Lightning.
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Dang it Proto, rock solid analysis as usual.
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Here is RevZilla's take on the Lightning Strike - but based only upon their press release ::) :
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/first-look-lightning-strike-standard-mid-range-and-carbon-edition
And in case that is too much excitement for you, I will toss in this review of the new Vespa Elettrica :-[ :
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/vespa-elettrica-first-ride-electric-scooter-review
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So it is now several days after Lightning's big reveal of the Strike. But if you go to Lightning's web site it is really tough to find the details on the Strike. You would think it would be front and center but it isn't. I found the details on the Strike by clicking on the link for "About" and then clicking on "News" and then you see the article on the Strike reveal. There are no photos of the Strike there, only computerized images of what Lightning claims the bike will look like. Even under the "Community" link where the "Photos" link is there is nothing on the Strike, only the LS-218. If this bike is really going into production in July you would think there would be a production ready version out there. There is no doubt that action photos of riders having a great time on the Strike would help sell the bike and convince riders to put down a down payment on one of them. This really looks like a lot of smoke and mirrors. I hope I am wrong. Lightning sure got the motorcycle world excited with a few details of the Strike. But days after the reveal the details are still buried deep on the web site instead of being front/center and no actual photos of the bike has increased my skepticism. Time will tell.
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Well that's funny, Lightning had 2 video links from their webpage. One was a history of Lightning Motorcycles and the other was this video.
Now it's just on their YT channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47JH_axcKw
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Well that's funny, Lightning had 2 video links from their webpage. One was a history of Lightning Motorcycles and the other was this video.
Now it's just on their YT channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47JH_axcKw
If you listen at about 15 seconds and again at the end, there are audio "watermarks". Not sure what that's all about, but maybe they uploaded the wrong version?
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It looks like they added the closeups of the Strike to the original longer (and boring) video that popped up during the day of the Strike launch.
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Dang it Proto, rock solid analysis as usual.
++ Very nice!
One thing I'd add -- correct me if I'm wrong, but the claim of adding 100mi of range in 20min yields 10kWh in 20min using Lightning's own city range number for the "standard" model (100mi city range), which gives an average (not peak) charge rate of 30kW. On a 10 kWh battery, that implies a C-rate of 3 . Isn't that rather high?
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Dang it Proto, rock solid analysis as usual.
++ Very nice!
One thing I'd add -- correct me if I'm wrong, but the claim of adding 100mi of range in 20min yields 10kWh in 20min using Lightning's own city range number for the "standard" model (100mi city range), which gives an average (not peak) charge rate of 30kW. On a 10 kWh battery, that implies a C-rate of 3 . Isn't that rather high?
A lot of things don't make sense about the lightning specs. Personally, I don't think they even know themselves yet.
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I bet a lot of this information is coming from the Chinese factory that is building the Strike and some information may be lost, or distorted (or exaggerated), in translation. ::)
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I bet a lot of this information is coming from the Chinese factory that is building the Strike and some information may be lost, or distorted (or exaggerated), in translation. ::)
Hmmm. That would imply that factory also did all the design engineering -- if that's the case, that would make Lightning itself just a front company for Western sales.
Also, I had the impression there were pretty much no large (in terms of engine or physical size) Chinese motorcycles, so I'm not sure they'd have the design engineers to do motorcycle design for sportbike or other demanding uses. I could be wrong on that, and such motorcycles have yet to make it out of China.
https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2015/12/29/186258/ (https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2015/12/29/186258/)
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I bet a lot of this information is coming from the Chinese factory that is building the Strike and some information may be lost, or distorted (or exaggerated), in translation. ::)
Hmmm. That would imply that factory also did all the design engineering -- if that's the case, that would make Lightning itself just a front company for Western sales.
Also, I had the impression there were pretty much no large (in terms of engine or physical size) Chinese motorcycles, so I'm not sure they'd have the design engineers to do motorcycle design for sportbike or other demanding uses. I could be wrong on that, and such motorcycles have yet to make it out of China.
https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2015/12/29/186258/ (https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2015/12/29/186258/)
I guess we will find out eventually, but the fact that the specifications regarding the various Strike models seems kind of odd would make it strange if Lightning did all of the design work, component specifications and supplier contracts. You would think they would have that information down pat. And did you see that photo of the rather large Lightning factory building in China? It looked to me like it had the space to build the entire bike. Which is also kind of odd as Lightning was bragging and showing photos of their new fancy "factory" located in San Jose. (The factory building in China did not look nearly as nice. ;) ) I admit to being confused by what information has been leaked regarding the new Lightning models. ???
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++ Very nice!
One thing I'd add -- correct me if I'm wrong, but the claim of adding 100mi of range in 20min yields 10kWh in 20min using Lightning's own city range number for the "standard" model (100mi city range), which gives an average (not peak) charge rate of 30kW. On a 10 kWh battery, that implies a C-rate of 3 . Isn't that rather high?
I assume they're talking about the 20 kWh model, and charging 50% in 20 minutes (1.5C). The smaller bikes presumably would charge at the same relative charge rate, so 50 miles in 20 minutes for the $13k 10 kWh model.
If the 20 kWh battery is something like 355V / 55 Ah, then even a 50 kW CCS charger limited to 100-125A should be able to max out the charge rate.
I might be wrong! If they're talking about a 2C charge for 100 highway miles in 20 minutes - fantastic. A 2C charge rate should still be reasonable with a 125A CCS charger.
This is a lower relative charge rate than Energica, 0-85% in 20 minutes @ 2.5C. Note that the older model of the Energica, 0-85% in 30 minutes @ 1.7C, will begin to thermally derate after multiple sessions (https://ecodweeb.tumblr.com/post/182662460212/ikea-road-trip-362-miles-and-8-dc-fast-charges) (good read) - I'm curious how the 20 minute quick charges work out on a longer trip.
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I wonder if Lightning is monitoring this electric motorcycle forum.
If so, - how about an update? :-)
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I wonder if Lightning is monitoring this electric motorcycle forum.
If so, - how about an update? :-)
Well, he's doing some updating on Facebook. Some strange swingarm design going on.
https://www.facebook.com/richard.hatfield.108
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I wonder if Lightning is monitoring this electric motorcycle forum.
If so, - how about an update? :-)
Well, he's doing some updating on Facebook. Some strange swingarm design going on.
https://www.facebook.com/richard.hatfield.108
Huh? That FB page hasn't been updated for 7 years. Are you thinking of a different one?
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I already lost money on the Elio. No more puting deposits on things that do not yet exist.
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Someone who is in the FB group for Lightning said they ordered one but Lightning blamed the delay on Trump tariffs.
Not really sure wtf the tariffs have to do with it, as the parts should have come in a long time ago, and China devalued their currency to compensate.
Really suspicious now that they are blaming Trump for missed deadlines.
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(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68244642_2596948600329664_1971544526082277376_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQl0VYRb3ghEaPknhtHE5TVCHgfKNPMNDX83ZDYKg7UNYGT1SFCUNKwVuLMhNEywwzT6EVeOHD8uxYOItRVrwUrT&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=d1b0b3de29fce5c205e0dd7dededff10&oe=5E14C291)
Kevin Barnard: That looks just like mine! Hoping to take delivery late September. I understand there are supply chain and delivery delay issues because of Trump's pointless tariffs.
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Yeah exactly.
They keep showing the same bikes over and over (unclear if actually running or a dud). And now blaming Trump for their failure to deliver?
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Well, they didn't actually show any driving, but they did rev them on a stand.
Not clear if the "customer bike charging in the wild at a BART station" is the same "customer bike" LS218 that Richard brought to MakerFaire a couple years ago. Both were that pale blue color, IIRC.
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Making a motor spin a wheel on a stand is pretty easy and not very impressive.
The customer bike thing is also suspicious. You'd have to be crazy to leave a 40K bike at a BART station.
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Well, they didn't actually show any driving, but they did rev them on a stand.
Not clear if the "customer bike charging in the wild at a BART station" is the same "customer bike" LS218 that Richard brought to MakerFaire a couple years ago. Both were that pale blue color, IIRC.
I've asked repeatedly, on multiple electric-bike forums & websites. I haven't found a single actual customer who has an LS-218, or anyone who knows such a person personally, or any mention of such a person other than by Hatfield.
Given how tiny a market this is, there would certainly have been some ride report / motojournalist bu someone, video or otherwise, documenting such a bike.
Until presented with significant evidence otherwise, I won't believe they've ever sold any bike (possibly excepted one in 2014).
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I agree that if there were any actually customers of the LS218, there would be a YouTube video or write-up somewhere. And Jay Leno would certainly have one.
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Yes, I wish this was real but honestly it doesn't even look like they have any dealers set up.
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I'm sure, and hope these will come to fruition at sometime in the future, but I doubt they will meet their capacity, performance or price claims. Claims that beat (by a large margin) the entire market on performance and price by a manufacturer (?) that hasn't sold a single motorcycle that anyone ACTUALLY knows or has seen. This seemed very fishy from the very beginning.
I hope it works out, I know there are at least a couple of form members that have put down a deposit so far. We're almost to September.. that July delivery date isnt working out so well.
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At the rate they're going, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we see the Curtiss Zeus hit the streets before the first Strike.
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At the rate they're going, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we see the Curtiss Zeus hit the streets before the first Strike.
;D
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Well said
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At the rate they're going, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we see the Curtiss Zeus hit the streets before the first Strike.
;D
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Hey, maybe by then Curtiss will even be selling their bargain-bin $30K bike, the Psyche (https://www.rideapart.com/articles/362338/curtiss-psyche-30k-electric-motorcycle/)....