ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Charlyseabass on March 16, 2019, 04:00:04 AM
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Hi there does anyone had this sound inside the motor of a zero fx???
The bike is 2015 and 10000km, bought second hand,pulley and sprocket changed and well tight....
I’m afraid that a bearing inside suffered previous chain kit instalation with a chock air
tool..,.please check those vids thanx....
https://youtu.be/EKHFCB-jp4M
https://youtu.be/ol5vVXLb-OE
Bike is out of warranty and i guess that here in france dealers will ask me to pay for a whole new zf engine....
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1) Might be the engine bearings. Try to run the bike while on a stand, and check where the noise comes from. Changing the wheel bearing will cost you 100$ parts + work. I would suppose it is the same for the engine.
2) Before this you might want to ask you dealer for a solution. Probable cost: 3000 euros parts + works.
3) Engines can be opened, even if Zero does not recommend it. If you do so, take pictures & share with the community !
4) You can order a new engine via AF1racing - if the shipping is too expensive, ask a US friend to bring it back to you : https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=89773&sku=ZM12-08041&description=ZF75-5+IPM+25T+MOTOR+KIT+-+ZM12-08041
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That would be a pre-IPM motor. The bearing hypothesis is the best to check right now, but I have a suspicion that there's a loose magnet in there. In either case, definitely don't ride the bike hard until it's sorted.
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Thanx for your reply moto7575
Bought the bike 7000€ last year, dealer said after 1 month i send those vids it was probably coming from a loose sprocket....and fairly paid for the new parts....
I don’t feel like opening the motor myself as my mechanic knowledge is basic....and a powerfull hydraulic press is probably needed to extract the bearing....
I have not seen any topics about motor opening on the forum...
3000€ after one year😭😭😭😭
1) ask a dealer
2)I have to find someone to open it and find the right bearing
3)you come on holidays to my island with a motor in your luguage...!!!
4)i keep on going for this summer and see.....
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Hi briantrace
Do you know if there is a zero recall campaign about that issue on pre ipm-motors??
Or anyone having the loose magnet pb and sorted it??
Thank you
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There is indeed a known loose sprocket defect. It is very cheap to solve - see the "click sound" section in the zero unofficial manual (google for it).
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It’s all done...( thanx to that topic) i changed pulley and sprocket already...the videos are made just after the change ,everything tightened properly..... but seems to be worth...magnet or bearing as master briantrace said.....
I will check the forum for motor remove....and/or bearing access...
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http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8512.msg72116#msg72116
Hey moto7575
It seems that you had issues too... something flying inside the motor.....
Pre ipm motors could get hot enough to melt epoxy fixing magnets....
Did you change your motor??
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The dealer did a misdiagnostic and while Zero refused to move i was left for weeks before I went to the shop and did the diagnostic myself. It was the wheel bearing, which is easy to fix. What i heared is that engines can be opened and fixed - Zero opposes this but if they dont help you I dont think you owe them anything.
This is a good case of how Zero customer service goes (very) bad : dealers how little knowledge on the bikes, and Zero says basically "f**k off" after the warranty period instead of finding fair solutions. The customer end up being locked in this mess even for very small issues.
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Yeah, when Zero decides it can’t deal with risk, it shuts down all lines of communication, at least from the customer perspective.
This is why the unofficial manual exists. I’ll try to catalog these diagnoses but any detailed reasoning you can provide will help.
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Yes. How to kill customer experience (and long term shareholder value) 101. Sad.
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Yeah that stinks. Zero lied to my dealer while repairing my bike, but at least they eventually got it fixed (after over a month in the dealer).
Don't understand why so many of us are brand fanboys. The bikes the company makes are what we love. There's not very much to love about the company itself.
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I think there are a couple of company employees here. But most real customer would agree with you ;-)
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Thanx to everyone for your support
I brought the bike to a dealer 200km from home(closest dealer for me)
They said that some zero staff was coming two days later for technical training.....
And they also have a show event of the new ds-r next week with some more zero dealers.....
Now the only thing i can do is waiting to know.....
I will keep this post updated, for everyone to know how is after warranty service for people like me owning older bikes....( zero fx 5.7KW 2015 10000km in france)
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Finger crossed. Keep us posted !
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Hi there....
3 weeks waiting now, and no news from the dealer, wich probably as no news from zero.(he initiate a request to zero)
Spring is coming.....
no bike
No news....
It seems like moto7575 was right about zero service.....
We will see....
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I forgot:
When the zero staff came and checked my bike , the diag was: dead motor, it has to be changed....
(Last week on a second hand website famous in france, i saw the exact same bike as mine same battery from 2015, only 133km on it..... and guess what.... it was the same price i paid for mine with 7000km with that tricky motor sound....) 😤😭
Second hand market shows that the value of those bike is decreasing fast( probably because of the battery limited life) compared to petrol 2 wheels....
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Hi,
Thanx to that forum, i got in touch with someone working for zero,
He asked me some details and sent some instructions to zero europe,
The official answer is 25% discount on the new motor, and 1600€ left for me....
I’m trying now to solve this with the seller as the motor was already damaged when i bought it...
But it’s 2 month now i’m stuck in this mess without my bike for commuting...
The seller takes me for a fool and i will have to go to court.....
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Your bike is only 10.000 km old. Did you do anything that could have harmed the bike ? If the answer is "nothing", i suggest you use your insurance's legal coverage : they will sue Zero Europe & the dealer for you. You should not pay for defective parts.
The "commercial warranty" is just something Zero proposes to customers. But consumers are also protected against "lemons", ie bikes that last less than you could expect. You have have Mutuelle des Motards, they will pay for the legal fees, and gather all the cases like yours (you are not alone).
One thing, though : be sure that the engine is defective, not just simple parts like wheel bearings - the symptoms are very close, and I have seen dealers unable to make a proper diagnostic.
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Hi moto7575
Yes the bike is 3 years old and only 10000km!!!
It is 100% sure that the problem comes from inside the motor ( look my video at the beginning of that topic, when I shake the pulley)
I know it sounds insane that zero Europe offers only 25% discount on a new motor after such a low mileage...!!!
I didn’t do anything that could have harmed the bike myself...
it has been a dealer personnal bike for 7000km before I bought it....
2 months now stuck....I have to see with my insurance to sue zero....
and more time and energy lost....instead of getting busy with positive things
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Since you're outside the powertrain warranty (that is true, right?) your insurance certainly won't be suing anybody. Unless other consumer protection from your country or the EU applies.
Aside from hurting the consumer this is bad strategy from Zero. If only a few motors have problems like this, it makes sense to help the owners outside warranty to keep them happy and complaints quiet.
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Propose to the seller to each pay 50% since they misrepresented the condition of the vehicle. If they say the problem didn't exist, indicate that you will file for 100% in small claims court. You probably wouldn't win, but they might pay 50% to avoid court.
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I disagree. Commercial warranty is something a company specifically promises. But basic consumer protection law in any developed country states that a product need to live by the reasonable expectation you would make on such a product. Zero's promise is that bike a premium and quality product. An engine exploding after 10.000 km is not what you would expect. he insurance will commission an expert and push the case. Mutuelle des motards already have close to one dozen of similar open cases - it is true that other purely commercial insurer will probably let you down. I would strongly advise to insure your bike with customer friendly insurer like MdM...
Since you're outside the powertrain warranty (that is true, right?) your insurance certainly won't be suing anybody. Unless other consumer protection from your country or the EU applies.
Aside from hurting the consumer this is bad strategy from Zero. If only a few motors have problems like this, it makes sense to help the owners outside warranty to keep them happy and complaints quiet.
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Ok everybody,
Thanks to that forum I got in contact with someone I will call the doctor.....
I was fed up with this issue and about to give up, BUT!!!!!!
I got an insane mail from the doctor explaining step by step how to take the motor out, open it and fix it....!!!!
I went straight to the dealer, got my bike back saying there was no way I would pay for a new motor 1600€.....
The motor was already out of the bike and the motor opened, they had been using my bike for a technical training with some zero crew....😬☹ï¸
I took everything back home and started to work, with the great help from the doctor by mail....
His diagnosis was good, the noise was coming from a play between the shaft and the rotor laminations....
Disassembled all ,apply loctite 648 on the shaft and laminations,
Put two new bearings high temperature high speed....
Slowly closed the motor back.... back in the bike, plugged it and
WWWWWIIIIIIINNNNNNN!!!!! Here we go again
Total cost 25€ bearings and 10€ loctite and 2 days slowly work......
I Would like to say a big thank you to the guy who will probably recognize himself.....
Thanks doc!!!!
And big up’to This helpfully forum
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Happy for you ! Could you post pictures to let us understand better and help future users having the same issue ?
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Very interesting, and congratulations! What a great job. Maybe electric motor work is more DIY than we tend to think.
Retaining compound which is typically used for holding gears and sprockets onto gearbox shafts and rotors on electric motor shafts.
LOCTITE® 648 is a green, fluorescent, low viscosity, high strength, urethane methacrylate acrylic, anaerobic retaining compound designed for bonding cylindrical fitting parts. It prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration. Typical applications include holding gears and sprockets onto gearbox shafts and rotors on electric motor shafts. It provides robust curing performance.
Fluorescent
Low viscosity
High strength
Designed for bonding cylindrical fitting parts
Works on active metals (e.g. mild steel) as well as passive substrates such as stainless steel and plated surfaces
Offers high temperature performance and oil tolerance
Tolerates minor surface contaminations from various oils such as cutting, lubrication, anti-corrosion and protection fluids
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This is good as an outcome and as guidance for future work, thank you.
Hopefully we can generalize this soon for future repairs. I prefer repair over replacement when it can be performed competently.
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Indeed. I already heard from a dealer that fixing an engine was relatively easy, but that Zero prevents dealers from doing it. So it would be great if we could have a documentation to do it ourselves...
This is good as an outcome and as guidance for future work, thank you.
Hopefully we can generalize this soon for future repairs. I prefer repair over replacement when it can be performed competently.
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To remove the motor, first you have to remove the swing-arm (that is pretty straight forward) some big bolts in the pivot and disconnet the shock. you can leave the brake lines attached and just move the swingarm out of the way when the motor needs to come out. On the motor there are 8 M8 bolts holding the motor in place, 4 on the drive side, 4 on the rear side.
To disconnect the motor from the bike there is a sensor connector that unplugs, it is near the front of the contoller on the riders right side of the bike, and un-bolt the 3 phase leads to the motor controller. Those bolts only have about 12Nm of torque on them ,Once you have the motor disconnected, and un-bolted from the frame it should slide out towards the back.
Once you have the motor out of the bike you can pull it apart.
it is actually quite easy to pull apart, but requires a lot of force. you can built a little chair(width of the plate,you put it on the cooling wings)with a m10 tensioner Then you bolt an M10 eye-bolt on the pulley so you can pull on the shaft really hard (about 200lbs) and the rotor will pull out on the shaft along with the drive plate and bearings.
Once you have the shaft and rotor out, be careful as it is highly magnetic and you can get your fingers pinched quite easily on it. At that point I found that the rotor is loose on the shaft. you have to remove the rear bearing, remove the c-clip holding the rotor laminations on the shaft, use a marker or something to mark the front and back of the rotor and how it is aligned on the shaft because you are going to take it off, and it is important that it goes on in the exact same direction, otherwise the motor could spin backwards. Once you have the rotor and the shaft labeled so you can get them back together exactly the same way, slide the rotor laminations off the shaft. Clean the shaft and the inside of the laminations. Apply a lot of loctite 648 on the shaft and lamniations, then slide them back together ensuring that they go together the same way that they were before and that the loctite 648 gets well distributed between the shaft and the laminations to make a solid bond. Put the c-clip back on, put the bearing back on (or put a new bearing on since removing a bearing without damaging it is quite hard, the front and rear bearings are both 6006-2RS). When you put the new bearing on, make sure you just push on the inner race for the press fit, if you push on the outer race it will transfer the force through the balls and likely damage them. The bearing should be a press fit, if it slips on or off easily, you should glue it on with the loctite 648. Let the 648 cure for a few hours before putting the motor back together. To put the motor back together just do the same thing you did to pull it apart, but opposite. Ensure that the wave-spring is still in the bottom of the bearing pocket at the bottom of the motor., Be careful to not let the rotor slam back into place, that could damage the bearing, make sure you control the rotor,use the little chair and unscrew the tensioner to let the magnetic forces pull it back in slowly. Once it is almost all the way in, the bearing will catch on the bearing pocket. at that point it might take a little jiggling around and some force on the end of the shaft to get it to pop into place, then it could take a bit more force to get the drive-plate to re-engage with the stator case.
This is what I went thrue , i had tu buy a c-clip pliers , m10 tensioner,and borrow a hub puller at the mechanic shop (to extract the bearings)and buy high quality bearings and loctite....
This two only pictures of this I have: the rotor out with the magnet (sensor side)I was able to push the shaft out pushing on the lamination hole with a scew driver and hammer....
Second picture is the chair used to open and close the motor...
I will try later for the pictures file is too big and i’m Too bad!!!
Hope this can help anyone instead of fighting with sellers or dealers like I did....
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Could you add a page in the manual including some pictures : https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual
It would help a lot and let your enter into the community hall of fame !
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This is great material, thank you.
I've created the following pages which are roughly a good start:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Motor_Removal
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Motor_Bearing_Replacement
Please review and post photos suitable for sharing as you think appropriate.