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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: alko on March 08, 2019, 11:14:18 PM
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Harley Livewire, Energiva Evo and the $13,000 Lightning Strike all offer Fast DC charging, but Zero decided not to. Doesn't make sense as more and more DC charging stations are popping up. A brand new DC charge station just popped up at the Wal-Mart in my small town of Mesquite NV. I don't understand what Zero was thinking.
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Highly unlikely the 13k strike will have DC charging, or that version be anywhere near competitive with an SRF. Even if the specs are descent, I wouldn't feel comfortable buying from lightning yet until they actually start having dealers/distributers.
Also I still don't know what use cases people have in mind that want DC fast charging so much.
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Also I still don't know what use cases people have in mind that want DC fast charging so much.
Charity rides that are 100mi+
I'm hoping that Zero will take Tesla up on their offer to let other manufacturers use the Superchargers, because that will be the best nationwide DC charging network for a while.
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It does seem like a bit of a miss on their part.
Would have been nice to have more range OR much faster charging on the SR/F. Something to make a $20k bike more viable to ICE riders, but it didn't seem to move the needle that much.
But maybe they did their research and know something we don't.
I keep wondering when Honda or another big player is going to just in the game. I know HD is a big name, but it seems like they are just one miss away from being history compared to the other big players.
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I think the reason is because Zero is still using the same battery architecture as in other models but in a new case which allows better heat dissipation. If that's true then they suffer from the same issue of the pack voltage being too low for all but a few DCFC that actually follow the full spec.
In addition 12kW onboard charging is cool but almost no public chargers support that. And it's unlikely that many public 12kW stations will get built since the direction of infrastructure is DCFC over high power AC.... rightfully so.
Wrong decision in my book. Without DCFC it's hard to justify the SR/F premium over the SR unless you are going to a track.
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DCFC allows you to take trips and greatly reduce your charging times. Instead of 1 1/2 to 2 hours you are charging for 20-30 minutes. When range and or charging times are not an issue I will ride my Eva. If they are then I take my KTM 1290 SA. CCS charging speed is a primary factor in making some trips practical for my Eva that I wouldn’t make on my Zero SR equipped with dual Elcons. Electric motorcycle can be a lot more than just commuting and local errand running motorcycles and faster charging plays a key role in that. On this forum there is a topic called the 300 Mile club for those Zero owners who have ridden 300 miles in one day. I have done that several times and yes it is a big deal because it makes for a very long day. The reason it takes so long is because of only being able to charge on L2. Last July I rode my Eva out to western NC. One day I rode about 358 miles on the Blue Ridge Parkway. All of my charging that day was CCS and riding that kind of mileage isn’t a big deal at all when each charging stop is only 20-30 minutes. Zero just doesn’t get this concept at all.
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I'm fairly certain that Zero will announce a DCFC charging module in the next couple years for the SR/F. But I suspect it'll be limited by the lack of battery cooling and system voltage, so perhaps at a rate not much faster than 12kW(1C for a monolith). I'm also not convinced some of the DCFC providers have considered battery longevity in the long term.
Personally, almost all the chargers around me are not DCFC and the ones that are are usually taken by car owners. So it has limited utility for me.
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Harley Livewire, Energiva Evo and the $13,000 Lightning Strike all offer Fast DC charging, but Zero decided not to. Doesn't make sense as more and more DC charging stations are popping up. A brand new DC charge station just popped up at the Wal-Mart in my small town of Mesquite NV. I don't understand what Zero was thinking.
First off, the LiveWire and the Strike offer nothing because they currently don't exist. Next, pop up PlugShare and have it display J1772 stations near you. How many are there. Now please let me know how many CCS stations there are by comparison.
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. . . pop up PlugShare and have it display J1772 stations near you. How many are there. Now please let me know how many CCS stations there are by comparison.
Next, see how many Superchargers are near you. Today, there are three within 50 miles of me.
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I'm impressed that Zero have managed to develop a new model, considering the market challenges. I know they need to keep up, but it's a massive achievement nonetheless.
My take on it is that they've taken a cautious approach so they're not changing absolutely everything at once. It may well be that going high voltage and implementing DC rapid charging is the next major development. We might see it in a year or two.
The other big issue is thermal management. Tesla has just introduced a system to heat cold batteries when planning a rapid charge. To make rapid charging work efficiently, the cells have to be kept at the optimum temperature during charging and ensure they also don't overheat. Zero also need to source cells that are ratified for 2C charging, or ideally 3 or 4C. The current Farrasis cells are only allowed to go to 1C, even if they are probably capable of more.
So for rapid DC Zero would have to develop a whole new battery pack and electronics with active thermal management. Possibly a new motor too? I'd like to see them do that with a new generation of cells and significantly higher capacity. Something in the region of 20kWh nominal capacity that can charge at 50kW. That would give us something like 150 mile range with the ability to add another 120 miles in 20 minutes. That's getting close to what piston bikes can do.
The Energica can only charge at 20kW and has an effective range of about 50 miles at speed, from what I gather. It needs to be at least twice that for all but the enthusiast to go for it. Then there's the weight of the bike too.
I think Zero have done well, considering the constraints they have. They've brought the SR/F to market at a similar price point to the SR. They get a round of applause from me.
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Next, see how many Superchargers are near you. Today, there are three within 50 miles of me.
Additionally note the quantity of outlets. There's a Lowe's near me that shows up a 1 blip of many on Plugshare but actually has over a dozen free J1772 outlets available. I'm guessing there's 1 total CCS plug at OP's Walmart. Maybe 2 if he's lucky.
And, MostlyBonkers, the Energicas charge at up to 23kW and can go ~70-80 mile range at highway speeds.
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Not enough fast DC chargers exist or are going to exist while the SR/F is new and hot. Also, lots of smart people at Zero considered this very issue and didn't come to your conclusion, which makes your claim pretty extraordinary.
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Not enough fast DC chargers exist or are going to exist while the SR/F is new and hot. Also, lots of smart people at Zero considered this very issue and didn't come to your conclusion, which makes your claim pretty extraordinary.
The coverage map in the US is pretty good already, and getting better by the day: https://www.tesla.com/supercharger
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I guess I'm kind of on the fence about whether there are "enough" of the DC charging stations yet to really make DC charging mandatory on Zero's bikes. OTOH, it is pretty clear that the number of them is growing fast, and if the lack of DC charging isn't a disadvantage yet, it will be before long.
On yet another hand, how hard will it be for Zero to add the capability later? A couple of high-current wires to the battery (or the BMS or wherever), some electronics in a module to interface with the charging station, mount it somewhere reasonably accessible, DC charging port.
Is there some reason it would be harder than that to add it on to a bike that doesn't ship with it? I'm not familiar with all the DC charging standards, is Zero's battery voltage too low for others the way it is for some or the CHAdeMo stations?
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Next, see how many Superchargers are near you. Today, there are three within 50 miles of me.
Additionally note the quantity of outlets. There's a Lowe's near me that shows up a 1 blip of many on Plugshare but actually has over a dozen free J1772 outlets available. I'm guessing there's 1 total CCS plug at OP's Walmart. Maybe 2 if he's lucky.
And, MostlyBonkers, the Energicas charge at up to 23kW and can go ~70-80 mile range at highway speeds.
Thanks for the correction. After my experience of running a Kia Soul EV for 18 months, I tend to think in terms of effective range for longer trips. That's the actual range minus a contingency to allow for a failed or unavailable rapid charger. They're about 20 miles apart here in the UK on the motorway network. I've rolled up to them before when they've been available on the app only to find they're covered up with 'Do Not Use' plastered over them. Or somebody is charging and there's a 30 minute wait. I'd take my chances and hope the next one is available when I get there. I found I was comfortable with having at least ten miles of range left when I got to a charger. That meant I had a good chance or reaching an L2 charger if my planned rapid was unavailable. I couldn't count on more than 60 miles of highway range between rapid charges to 83% in the Kia Soul EV, especially in winter, so my effective range was around fifty miles. I guess I'd revise it to around 60 miles effective range if I had an Energica, based on your info. I think I settled on 50 from something I heard a while ago, but it could have been someone riding it like they stole it, rather than a constant highway speed. Would you say it's 70-80 miles from full or from a rapid charge to approx. 80%?
Ultimately it depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Even on the highway, a 60 mile range should still be good for around an hour in the saddle; roadworks, traffic etc. My bum starts getting sore after an hour so it isn't such a bad thing to stop for a break. Bike dependent, I guess. It's probably comfortable to go as far as your bladder will allow on a big tourer.
As soon as you get off the motorway network, rapid chargers get harder to find. That's why I still believe that it's important to have something like a 200 mile range in a car or at least 150 on a bike. Charging anxiety was the biggest factor in my getting rid of my Kia Soul EV six months before the lease was up. Long trips just weren't practical.
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I guess I'm kind of on the fence about whether there are "enough" of the DC charging stations yet to really make DC charging mandatory on Zero's bikes. OTOH, it is pretty clear that the number of them is growing fast, and if the lack of DC charging isn't a disadvantage yet, it will be before long.
On yet another hand, how hard will it be for Zero to add the capability later? A couple of high-current wires to the battery (or the BMS or wherever), some electronics in a module to interface with the charging station, mount it somewhere reasonably accessible, DC charging port.
Is there some reason it would be harder than that to add it on to a bike that doesn't ship with it? I'm not familiar with all the DC charging standards, is Zero's battery voltage too low for others the way it is for some or the CHAdeMo stations?
I've also been thinking along similar lines to you Doug. Would it be difficult to design and manufacture a Rosetta Stone that sits between the low voltage battery pack and the high voltage rapid DC charger? A device that interfaces with the charger at 3-400 volts and handles the communication. It would then transform the input voltage down to something the BMS is happy with. However, we'd still be limited by the 1C charge rate, so the Zero could only pull 12-13kW from the charger.
Here in Europe I think there are a reasonable amount of rapid chargers that can output around 21kW AC via a Mennekes plug. The Renault Zoe relies on them. It does seem that Zero have provided the best fast charging option possible with 12kW AC considering their battery technology.
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As soon as you get off the motorway network, rapid chargers get harder to find. That's why I still believe that it's important to have something like a 200 mile range in a car or at least 150 on a bike. Charging anxiety was the biggest factor in my getting rid of my Kia Soul EV six months before the lease was up. Long trips just weren't practical.
Right, and electric motorcycles aren't quite there yet for touring, either. I recently looked at a proposed trip to Vegas from Monterey Bay. I gave myself 65 miles between charges on PlugShare to be safe; it would require 8 stops including J1772, Tesla Destination, and Nema 14-50 stations. This is not something the average person is going to want to do or think about. I, on the other hand, really want to do it. If I wasn't so busy at the shop I'd probably be on the road right now.
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As Nikola Tesla and George Westinghouse proved, it is far easier and safer (and therefore less expensive) to conduct high voltage current over AC than DC. That being the case, it is less expensive and easier to provide high capacity L2 charging than L3 DC charging so most places are going L2. Probably the reason there are so many more L2 stations out there.
Around where I live, L2 stations seem to be popping up like mushrooms after a storm.
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As Nikola Tesla and George Westinghouse proved, it is far easier and safer (and therefore less expensive) to conduct high voltage current over AC than DC. That being the case, it is less expensive and easier to provide high capacity L2 charging than L3 DC charging so most places are going L2. Probably the reason there are so many more L2 stations out there.
AC and DC "conduct" equally well, it's just that AC is extremely easy to bump up or down, by simply running it through a transformer. You can distribute AC over long distances at very high voltage (to minimize resistive losses in the wires), then bump it down easily at its destination. Multiple taps on the transformer allow easy tweaking to get the actual voltage close to the nominal 110, 208, 240, 480 or whatever is needed. DC is far harder and more expensive to level-shift.
L2 and L3 charging both require a "charger" to convert the AC line voltage to the proper DC voltage and current for the battery on the vehicle. The only difference is the location of the charger. L2 chargers simply bring the AC line voltage to the vehicle, which has its own charger, tailor made for the vehicle's battery. L3 puts the charger on the ground, so each vehicle doesn't have to carry its own charger, which is nice because chargers are bulky, heavy and can run hot. You can also make the charger monster-sized (since you only need one to service all vehicles), so it can charge vehicles with giant batteries fast. To service all the batteries that are out there, some sort of signaling protocol is necessary to tell the ground-based charger how much current to supply, at what voltage.
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Right, which also makes installing a CCS or CHAdeMO station a lot more expensive since you're buying all the chargers and cooling and big bulky things. Level 2 AC units can be as simple as little boxes attached near the breaker. Many can be had for under $400.
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I guess I'm kind of on the fence about whether there are "enough" of the DC charging stations yet to really make DC charging mandatory on Zero's bikes. OTOH, it is pretty clear that the number of them is growing fast, and if the lack of DC charging isn't a disadvantage yet, it will be before long.
On yet another hand, how hard will it be for Zero to add the capability later? A couple of high-current wires to the battery (or the BMS or wherever), some electronics in a module to interface with the charging station, mount it somewhere reasonably accessible, DC charging port.
Is there some reason it would be harder than that to add it on to a bike that doesn't ship with it? I'm not familiar with all the DC charging standards, is Zero's battery voltage too low for others the way it is for some or the CHAdeMo stations?
Im just saying DC should at least be an option, so Zero will have 3 ways to charge it depending on what's available to you at the time. I don't know how energica or Lightning does it, but I just heard that all 3 charging options will fit into a single port on the Harley which I didn't even know was possible. Sure beats having more than one port on the bike. Even though the Harley will accept a level 2 J1772 plug, it only charges at level 1 speed. NOT sure why they did that.
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The Energica has its own separate 3.3kW AC charger. The plug you are referring to is CCS or combo because it features the J1772 face with the addition of 2 large DC leads at the bottom.
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In the SF bay area, one of the most forward thinking places you'd think, level 3 chargers are extremely hard to find and when they are available there's only one per site while there are dozens of level 2 chargers available.
I really think prioritizing level 3 charging like Harley did would be a mistake.
The only reason to put level 3 on the bike is for the features/spec sheet, it doesn't really add up in terms of practicality or day to day living on the bike. In another 4 or 5 years it will probably make sense. Right now, not really.
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California is ahead on level 2 chargers because they were first. Level 2 chargers are absolute.
In Wisconsin we donot have a lot of level 2 chargers.
Chargers being built are level three. Chevy dealers, Jaguar dealers, and Harley Dealers.
Zero propaganda on range is bull. How slow do I have to ride my SR/Powertank to get over 200 mile range.
My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.
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California is ahead on level 2 chargers because they were first. Level 2 chargers are absolute.
In Wisconsin we donot have a lot of level 2 chargers.
Chargers being built are level three. Chevy dealers, Jaguar dealers, and Harley Dealers.
Zero propaganda on range is bull. How slow do I have to ride my SR/Powertank to get over 200 mile range.
My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.
Only 80 miles? Are you talking city or highways speeds?
I have a 2017 DSR without a charge tank and I consistantly get 110-115 miles around town with 15% left. Never drained it to 0%. Speed limit is 35mph and I'm not light on the throttle. Always in sport mode. Love to show off the acceleration. Cops never hear me so they never look up. Lol
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Zero propaganda on range is bull. How slow do I have to ride my SR/Powertank to get over 200 mile range.
My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.
80 highway seems very reasonable. In my experience Zero's numbers are fairly accurate. Additionally, Zero has the most dense battery pack of any bike currently offered or even supposedly coming out this year. Charging seems to be a complicated subject, and the debate for liquid cooling on motors continues, but I don't think there's any debate that Zero offers potentially the most range per charge of any electric motorcycle by a long shot.
And yes, electric motorcycles are still very much in their infancy, but Zero is leading the pack on battery density.
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My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.
I'm guessing your idea of "taking it very easy" means keeping your speed below 90mph, because I routinely get over 80 miles per charge on my "S" with the 13kWh battery and no power tank... most of my riding is highway with surface streets connecting them. I'd say about 60% highway, 40% surface streets unless I'm just out for fun.
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My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.
Based on my limited experience with Zero, I was guessing the same thing. That's not very far for $21,000.
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I think the reason is because Zero is still using the same battery architecture as in other models but in a new case which allows better heat dissipation. If that's true then they suffer from the same issue of the pack voltage being too low for all but a few DCFC that actually follow the full spec.
In addition 12kW onboard charging is cool but almost no public chargers support that. And it's unlikely that many public 12kW stations will get built since the direction of infrastructure is DCFC over high power AC.... rightfully so.
Wrong decision in my book. Without DCFC it's hard to justify the SR/F premium over the SR unless you are going to a track.
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An article I saw said that the 12kw charging is done from 2 J1772 plugs, one for the 6 kw on board and one for the 6 kw charge tank.
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An article I saw said that the 12kw charging is done from 2 J1772 plugs, one for the 6 kw on board and one for the 6 kw charge tank.
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This might seem like a dumb question, but how can you connect more than one j1722 plugs to the Zero? Does it have more than one port?
I've noticed zero advertising you can charge the bike in one hour using 3 chargers at once and always wondered how that works at a public charge station.
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No, that is not offered by Zero.
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I’ve noticed in the last six years I’ve owned a Zero that one can nurture anxiety about any topic within electric motorcycles without any provocation.
It’s valid to consider Zero’s charging choices risky for the reasons discussed. Let’s wait and see what happens. Adopt the bike or model that suits your needs now, and hedge your bet however works for you personally.
I don’t need to upgrade now, and the SR/F isn’t exactly the model for me, so I’m waiting for what 2020 offers on this new platform, but if I bought one now, I’d get the 6kW option and wait to see what third party option or other upgrade manifests.
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Agree with Brian. My "S" does everything I need it to right now, and it's already paid for.
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After riding the SR/F, I've got less of a bad feeling about it. It's a cool bike.
It's just a blast to ride which might buyers once again look past range shortcomings.
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I agree with Brian also. I love my DSR. It's perfect for my current needs except 30 miles extra highway range would be nice for an occasional ride to st George UT (about a 100 mile round trip at highway speeds with no place to charge along the way) but there is nothing else on the market that can do that either.
Looks wise, I don't much care for the frame on the SR/F. Personally, I think think Harley did a beautiful job on the livewire with it's swooping frame design, but lousy job on the drive train with it's noisy bevel gearbox. And no way would I spend $30,000 for it.
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An article I saw said that the 12kw charging is done from 2 J1772 plugs, one for the 6 kw on board and one for the 6 kw charge tank.
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This might seem like a dumb question, but how can you connect more than one j1722 plugs to the Zero? Does it have more than one port?
I've noticed zero advertising you can charge the bike in one hour using 3 chargers at once and always wondered how that works at a public charge station.
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I've heard of some of the guys using a Y-adapter that combines two outputs into one. I don't know if the charge task provides an extra socket or integrates with the onboard chargers.
In the UK, most L2 charging posts provide about 7kW. The rapid chargers (L3) are mostly CHAdeMO and CCS, but some of them provide AC via a Mennekes plug. I believe these usually provide up to 21 or even 43kW, so they would work well if all three chargers integrate into one socket on the bike.