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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Jarrett on January 17, 2019, 04:54:01 AM
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In your opinion, are the late model Zero motorcycles reliable?
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I have owned a 2012, 2014, and 2018 Zero. I have found them all to be reliable. Only the 2012 bike had to visit the dealer for a couple of recalls. The 2014 and my current 2018 have never needed to visit a dealer, other than the 600 mile servicing for the 2018.
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I'm not allowed to discuss my 2015 SR or 2016 S, but I'll say my 2018 DSR has been perfect. It seems like they've fixed a lot of issues in recent models.
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My 2016SR had the charger die at 7000 miles. It was replaced under dealer warranty. Contactor won't always release after charging but a few key switches gets it to drop. Only get about 70 miles of range on my my battery (don't know what it's supposed to get, but that seems bad). I love it anyway.
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I'm not allowed to discuss my 2015 SR or 2016 S, but I'll say my 2018 DSR has been perfect. It seems like they've fixed a lot of issues in recent models.
Your signature says it all, lol.
My 2016SR had the charger die at 7000 miles. It was replaced under dealer warranty. Contactor won't always release after charging but a few key switches gets it to drop. Only get about 70 miles of range on my my battery (don't know what it's supposed to get, but that seems bad). I love it anyway.
What battery pack are you rocking? ZF9.8 or 13.0?
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From my experience there are two things:
1) The intrinsic reliability. It was low in the early years, and it improved somehow. There is a list of recalls in the zero unofficial manual, which gives you an idea of the number and severity of the issues
2) The quality of the customer service at zero. I had a better experience in the early years (Zero 2012), but less later, and awful after the warranty period. This seems to be very bad in Europe (the Eu CEO seems more focused on sales than customer satisfaction), but better in the US.
3) The quality of the service shop of your dealer, and their negotiation power / talent at dealing with 1+2. Several of the issues i had could have been solved in days instead of seeing my bike seating for months. The root cause was that my dealer knowing the Zero Europe will say no to everything and ask the dealer to pay for the problems, the dealers pushes on the customer and does the minimal, even in cases in which things could have been solved in 30 minutes.
My feeling is that Zero should pay much more attention at 2+3 : having minor issues, or bigger (battery losing charge) if they're fixed for free and quickly is not a problem. It means not dealing with statistics ("it is ok to have 3% of angry customers") but with individuals ("unless it is proven the customer was faulty, we try hard to find a solution").
In your opinion, are the late model Zero motorcycles reliable?
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Why aren't you allowed to discuss them ????
I'm not allowed to discuss my 2015 SR or 2016 S, but I'll say my 2018 DSR has been perfect. It seems like they've fixed a lot of issues in recent models.
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Why aren't you allowed to discuss them ????
I'm not allowed to discuss my 2015 SR or 2016 S, but I'll say my 2018 DSR has been perfect. It seems like they've fixed a lot of issues in recent models.
Not sure if he can say, but I'm going to assume that there was a non-disclosure agreement as part of a settlement. I have heard from some that had really significant issues with their bikes that Zero was aggressive with their lawyers. I've also heard from others the Zero has gone out of their way to hook people up that were mildly inconvenienced or had issues that were past warranty just as a matter of goodwill. I really don't understand the apparent inconsistency.
To answer the OP, I think that most Zeros are very reliable. If you happen to have an issue, you're likely to get it resolved quickly if you have a stellar dealer. If you don't have a stellar dealer, you may need a long-term backup mode of transportation.
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This is a shame... I dont see the point of doing that. This is 2019, people talk and look at other's experience. I feel an "ex advocate" too : i would have bought a new Sr every two years if I only had couple of quickly fixed issues - when it is working, this is a great experience. But now no way I can recommend the brand after the problems I had, and the way it was (not) solved.
By the way how happy are you with your 2018 FX ?
Why aren't you allowed to discuss them ????
I'm not allowed to discuss my 2015 SR or 2016 S, but I'll say my 2018 DSR has been perfect. It seems like they've fixed a lot of issues in recent models.
Not sure if he can say, but I'm going to assume that there was a non-disclosure agreement as part of a settlement. I have heard from some that had really significant issues with their bikes that Zero was aggressive with their lawyers. I've also heard from others the Zero has gone out of their way to hook people up that were mildly inconvenienced or had issues that were past warranty just as a matter of goodwill. I really don't understand the apparent inconsistency.
To answer the OP, I think that most Zeros are very reliable. If you happen to have an issue, you're likely to get it resolved quickly if you have a stellar dealer. If you don't have a stellar dealer, you may need a long-term backup mode of transportation.
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If Zero would build good technology, the dealers would not have to sell the motorcycles but make a waiting list
The best Zero EU employee in Holland is Michel de Wit.
If you get him, you lost !!!!! :o
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My 2016 S was PRETTY reliable. Just before the two year warranty expired, I had to have the motor replaced. At that point, the bike already had over 16,000 miles on it, and the replacement motor was covered by the warranty. It did take Zero an uncomfortably long time to work with my dealer to finally diagnose the problem and ship them the replacement motor though. Unfortunately that bike was totaled in an accident last June (it had a little over 17,000 miles on it by that point) so I can't vouch for any further reliability issues but I was satisfied enough with it to buy a 2018 S model this past October. That one just turned over 2,000 miles yesterday. So far so good, but it's early days yet.
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Tho many say older Zero's are not good, I'm proud to say I drive year round commuting a Zero 2013 DS and it never let me down so far!
😎
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By the way how happy are you with your 2018 FX ?
I love it. My commute is short, so I only have 2000 miles or so on it, but I ride it nearly every day.
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In your opinion, are the late model Zero motorcycles reliable?
Can't talk to the specific reliability of Zero, as I don't own one (in fact, I very recently came to the conclusion there will not be an e-motorcycle supporting my reqs for at least 5 more years, more likely 10+, and bought an ICE bike).
But there's a rather important piece of info you may be missing, if you're thinking "electric motorcycle as transportation appliance" or "reliable leisure machine". No e-motorcycle is there yet (e-scooters -- Vespa-type, not tiny-wheel-stand-on-it-devices -- excepted). Zero is the largest player worldwide, and they only make ~2000 bikes/year.
That severely limits the scope of their R&D, production/assembly line & customer service investments. There are regularly complaints here about why Zero's Customer Service appears to be neglected: Answer is, they can't afford to do much better at this point.
They also apparently can't fund development of a second family of larger bikes (larger frame, for making sport-tourers or tourers, or comfortable 2-up bikes, capable of handling large battery capacities like 25-30kWh), or development of a fairing, or, apparently, a decent L2 or L3 charging system.
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I own a 2018 7.2 S with 2k+ commuter and errand running miles. One sidestand fault fixed with jiggling the connection, no biggie. More annoying: I am having ongoing front brake issues that I'm pretty sure are manufacturer defects. Brake chatter leading to front rotor warping. Zero gave me a new front rotor, but still chattering. Problem is not resolved.
Not seeing other Zero forumites with this problem, so it most likely is an unlucky random issue that would be unlikely to affect you or anyone else.
Hopefully.
Still, for 10+k, I don't need this sh*t.
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Harley, Lightening Strike, Zero SR/F, and others, are on the way this year. I have a feeling ebike sales numbers are going to double in 2019. Good times and tech are coming!
In your opinion, are the late model Zero motorcycles reliable?
Can't talk to the specific reliability of Zero, as I don't own one (in fact, I very recently came to the conclusion there will not be an e-motorcycle supporting my reqs for at least 5 more years, more likely 10+, and bought an ICE bike).
But there's a rather important piece of info you may be missing, if you're thinking "electric motorcycle as transportation appliance" or "reliable leisure machine". No e-motorcycle is there yet (e-scooters -- Vespa-type, not tiny-wheel-stand-on-it-devices -- excepted). Zero is the largest player worldwide, and they only make ~2000 bikes/year.
That severely limits the scope of their R&D, production/assembly line & customer service investments. There are regularly complaints here about why Zero's Customer Service appears to be neglected: Answer is, they can't afford to do much better at this point.
They also apparently can't fund development of a second family of larger bikes (larger frame, for making sport-tourers or tourers, or comfortable 2-up bikes, capable of handling large battery capacities like 25-30kWh), or development of a fairing, or, apparently, a decent L2 or L3 charging system.
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11,000 km so far, daily commuter. No real problem except loose wire on a headlight. Fixed with electrical tape. oh, the dealer did the firmware update wrong the first time and I had to go back to fix it. No cost but inconvenient.
Still best bike I have ever owned. I would buy it again.
Three years old. Range is only 2% less than new bike. Better than I expected.
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This thread certainly doesn't instill confidence in the brand for sure.
I suspect there is a slant here towards people that have had issues with their bikes (and sought out advice on the Internet) versus owners who have had no issue with them and just blissfully ride.
That said, it seems like the OEM chargers have been an issue in the past, maybe still. Makes me wonder what your options are for that when the 2 year warranty runs out.
I called both of the service departments of my local dealers and asked about how frequently they see Zero's in the shop and the answer was rarely. Mostly for tires and brakes. Rarely for faulty parts that are replaced under warranty.
Another thing I was looking at for Zero is resale. I don't see a lot on the used market, but I wonder if they will hold value like an ICE bike or will be more like consumer electronics that rush to zero value once the newer tech is released.
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It's now 2 years almost that I started the Zero adventure with a second hand '14S. I added about 11kkm so it's about 10kmiles old now. No issues except the charger fading slowly away, no idea how it will end.
One year ago I had a crash at slow speed caused by a blind car driver, with some body damage, well repaired now, and minor Zero damage (windscreen, blinker, handelbar, mirror broken front fork skewed) The plastic fairing parts were more or less broken but could be glued together. Everything else could also be repaired at reasonable cost, all by myself.
It's still a pleasure riding a Zero, even during wintertime, as long as the roads are not icy.
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My two Zeros went as follows:
- 2013 DS, had a BMS replaced under recall for weather protection, and much later had fork seal troubles and then had the battery replaced under recall.26000 miles before it was stolen, still checking on its post recovery state.
- 2016 DSR, up to 37500 miles now. Replaced the DC 12V converter myself and removed the onboard charger, at 30,000 miles. Running fine with DigiNow charging systems.
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Lets not forget normal ICE bikes also still have issues, even after being on the market for so long.
I have had Honda, Yamaha and Moto Guzzi.
All had problems (and no, not the Moto Guzzi with most errors.. 😎).
Friends with Suzuki, BMW, Yamaha also had problems.
The first bike I didn't need a dealer besides changing tires and brakes is: my Zero 2013DS.....
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Of course. And we all love these bikes, when they dont have issues - i am currently owning three models, and with the problems I had my wife call this is "a victory of hope against experience".
I had a Honda, and when I had an issue it was super cheap to solve (deep second hand and adaptable parts market). When my dealer was repeatedly bad at solving problems I just picked a new one. Experience was much less good with Triumph (specific parts, one dealer only).
Most of the problems I had would have been solved this way. With Zero this is often not an option (people here seem very knowledgeable about e-bikes, but many Zero dealer master the mechanical part plus only the operations they were trained to solve).
This is why they should make an escalation process ensuring we do not see here and there customers with really ugly experiences. Even if this is now less frequent (maybe 5%) nobody wants to be in this position, nor should be.
Lets not forget normal ICE bikes also still have issues, even after being on the market for so long.
I have had Honda, Yamaha and Moto Guzzi.
All had problems (and no, not the Moto Guzzi with most errors.. 😎).
Friends with Suzuki, BMW, Yamaha also had problems.
The first bike I didn't need a dealer besides changing tires and brakes is: my Zero 2013DS.....
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Lets not forget normal ICE bikes also still have issues, even after being on the market for so long.
I have had Honda, Yamaha and Moto Guzzi.
All had problems (and no, not the Moto Guzzi with most errors.. 😎).
Friends with Suzuki, BMW, Yamaha also had problems.
The first bike I didn't need a dealer besides changing tires and brakes is: my Zero 2013DS.....
How do you drive yours Zero?
Is the driving dynamics as well as with the Yamaha,Moto Guzzi or a lot slower to create longer distances?
How much kWh does yours zero need for 100kM / 62miles?
Everything under 13kWH is pensioner nevau
NewZeroland is also happy if he can keep up with a 300 Ninja (39PS).
In this case, 10% battery energy was burned in 2 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUe0bZQJsc
What do you think the Zero would do if she was constantly charged like that?
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How much charge was regained while heading DOWN the hill though?
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Not more than 1% if the ninja really wants to follow 8)
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To answer the questions.
Well, my battery is 12,5 so I allways use less than 13kW.... ;)
Commuting is 80km highway.
I am like allways driving the speed limits (10% 100-110km/h and 80% 120-130km/h, 10% 30-60km/h).
Battery <10% on arrival.
Touring is for me currently only backroads and villages going 30-90km for 160km without taking a break.
Battery is <20%.
I am old (42) but I think not ride old, but thats for others to deside, I don't care 8)
I ride the same as with the Honda, Yamaha and Moto Guzzi, else I wouldn't ride.
Now with supercharging on board I gonna test highway - touring - highway this year.
That was the only thing missing from ICE.
The powertrain and driving on my 2013DS is equal and slightly better to the Yamaha 850tdm from 2000 (new) I had.
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Lets not forget normal ICE bikes also still have issues, even after being on the market for so long.
I have had Honda, Yamaha and Moto Guzzi.
All had problems (and no, not the Moto Guzzi with most errors.. 😎).
Friends with Suzuki, BMW, Yamaha also had problems.
The first bike I didn't need a dealer besides changing tires and brakes is: my Zero 2013DS.....
How do you drive yours Zero?
Is the driving dynamics as well as with the Yamaha,Moto Guzzi or a lot slower to create longer distances?
How much kWh does yours zero need for 100kM / 62miles?
Everything under 13kWH is pensioner nevau
NewZeroland is also happy if he can keep up with a 300 Ninja (39PS).
In this case, 10% battery energy was burned in 2 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUe0bZQJsc
What do you think the Zero would do if she was constantly charged like that?
59% to 55% in 2 minutes is 10%?
I burned through a ton of power going up into the hills quickly, but coming back down, I used pretty much zero power, and regained like 10%, and I was cooking down a mountain.
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Who can read is clearly in the advantage.
NewZeroland
Am 17.10.2016 veröffentlicht
A fun hill climb in New Zealand. I managed to use 10% of my battery in around 2 minutes blasting up this hill :D
You have to go to an ophthalmologist, I think.
The 10% get it only in the slow downhill together.Also that have you read over.
You can calculate this yourself: Down: FW=FR+FL-FS
As long as the air resistance is higher than the downhill gradients is impossible !!!!
Since they have to drive quite slow or go down a ski slope
Lie stories
As "Ex Zero Advocate" would she have to know about the technology, right?. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEMqkiM5I-98gxZKJXQ65Q
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I literally have no idea what you just said. Where are you getting the 10% number from? Looking at the video, it doesn't go down 10%.
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Was schreibt NewZeroland in seiner Videobeschreibung?!
Und wenn er es so schreibt, ist es richtig. Er weiß mehr über den Zero als wir zwei zusammen? 8)
Vergleiche das Video bei 0,03 und 2,55
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Ich habe es mir gerade wieder angesehen - er beginnt bei 59 oder 60% und endet bei 55%, wenn die Kamera ausgeschaltet wird. Ich brauche keine persönlichen Angriffe, ich habe mir das Video angesehen und den Prozentsatz für Anfang und Ende gesehen.
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Starts at 64% ;D
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English pls.
Ik ga toch ook geen Nederlands schrijven op een Engels forum? 8)
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Attention the caravan coming 8)
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Never a single problem with my 2018 SR and we have had arctic conditions and 100 degree days
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To come back to my real question.
How fast do you ride with your Zero's as well as with a normal motorcycle?
How high is your kWh consumption?
Zero indicates the 2017 DSR with 30hp (22kW) continuous power. That's not much. :o
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We had a 2015 and 2017. The 2015 went away after a legal battle with the company, and they delayed and delayed until I started tweeting and tagging them about the ongoing failures we had with it (8% battery to 0% batter in 250ft, as an example). Somewhere around the 5th or 6th tweet, they agreed to make things right. Enter the 2017. It was fine from the standpoint of it didn't behave like the 2015. However it was reliable enough for me to find the inherent flaw in the Zero design: lack of battery cooling of any sort. I couldn't go more than 120-150 miles in a given day before it would stop recharging (I live in the southern US, 108F days are not unheard of, hell it's 65F right now and we aren't even out of January) once we got past spring. The final straw was when it overheated while charging after a total of 90-miles ridden on an 80F overcast day. I've had no such issues with my Energica. Between the lack of customer service and the lack of functionality in our climate, I cannot recommend one to anyone. Not unless you strictly intend to commute with it, and your commute doesn't involve highways nor exceeds 25 miles round trip (making it effectively useless as a commuter here).
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...I cannot recommend one to anyone. Not unless you strictly intend to commute with it, and your commute doesn't involve highways nor exceeds 25 miles round trip (making it effectively useless as a commuter here).
Well I commute with it every day. Round trip is 34 miles, all highway. But then, I live in a temperate climate. My 2016 had 17,000 miles on it before it was totaled in an accident last June. My 2018 has 2,500 miles on it right now.
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However it was reliable enough for me to find the inherent flaw in the Zero design: lack of battery cooling of any sort. I couldn't go more than 120-150 miles in a given day before it would stop recharging (I live in the southern US, 108F days are not unheard of, hell it's 65F right now and we aren't even out of January) once we got past spring. The final straw was when it overheated while charging after a total of 90-miles ridden on an 80F overcast day.
Would you mind elaborating on this? I don't fully understand the issue here.
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However it was reliable enough for me to find the inherent flaw in the Zero design: lack of battery cooling of any sort. I couldn't go more than 120-150 miles in a given day before it would stop recharging (I live in the southern US, 108F days are not unheard of, hell it's 65F right now and we aren't even out of January) once we got past spring. The final straw was when it overheated while charging after a total of 90-miles ridden on an 80F overcast day.
I live in San Diego east county, and it's 73 here today. We often see 100+ during the summer, and I ride nearly every day, including several trips where I've fast-charged with my DigiNow several times in a day. The only overheating problem I've seen is due to my non-IPM motor (I have a 2014 SR with 45,000 miles on it), which can't take more than a couple of full-throttle stop-light races in hot weather.
Look, clearly you've had problems with your bikes, and of course that's going to leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. But come on....overheating under normal circumstances on an 80F day? I'm skeptical at best. Again, I respect that you've had problems with your bikes, and it's more than fair to report those. But I think your'e dumping more on them than they deserve. Their heat-management problems aren't THAT severe.
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One time I was able to travel 147 miles on a single charge, only stopping once for a lunch break. :) Even at freeway speeds during 90 degree temperatures, I have yet to see a motor temperature of more than 185 degrees F. But then I will admit that I am an easy rider. ;)
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Between the lack of customer service and the lack of functionality in our climate, I cannot recommend one to anyone. Not unless you strictly intend to commute with it, and your commute doesn't involve highways nor exceeds 25 miles round trip (making it effectively useless as a commuter here).
I can agree with you on the lack of customer service, but I think your recommendations are extreme and unfounded. I can do a 25 mile round trip commute on my FXS with no range or performance anxiety in 100 degree weather. In my use case, I am much more worried about being able to maintain highway speeds at lower SOC in cold weather, but that is much less if an issue with the bigger battery models like the SR.
I'm guessing that your thermal management issues had to do with fast charging after highway runs. That's something I've never had a need to do, but may well be a limitation of the bike.
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When I test rode the FX at a local dealer, I had it overheat on me in about 5 minutes of riding it on the highway.
Granted, I was flogged the hell out of it in sport mode. I was running it up to 85 mph quite a bit as I just wanted to see what it was capable of in terms of passing cars and such. As went well at first.
I was exiting an exit ramp and went to give it throttle and got nothing back. Looked down and the temperature light was flashing. Kept giving it throttle, but got nothing for a bit. By the time I coasted to the stop light, the temperature light stopped flashing and went solid. Then I got back a little throttle, enough to make the U-turn to the other side service road. By the time I got on the opposite service road, power was back 100%.
I called Zero and asked them about it and they said it shouldn't have done that in such a short period of time. Not sure if that is accurate or not with the FX.
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Jarrett, do you know if that bike has the IPM motor? If not, it may have been the motor overheating. My bike (2014 SR w/o IPM motor) will start flashing at me if I make multiple high-throttle runs on a hot day...though I don't push it until it shuts down completely. The IPM motor SHOULD fix all that.
The other thing that might overheat would be the battery. On my SR, I doubt that's the problem, based on what information I've been able to gather. But it might be on the FX -- smaller battery, higher current density per cell, higher concentration of the heat that's generated.
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Between the lack of customer service and the lack of functionality in our climate, I cannot recommend one to anyone. Not unless you strictly intend to commute with it, and your commute doesn't involve highways nor exceeds 25 miles round trip (making it effectively useless as a commuter here).
I'm guessing that your thermal management issues had to do with fast charging after highway runs. That's something I've never had a need to do, but may well be a limitation of the bike.
Yes, and I'll go one further. The bike was always near payload capacity when ridden. If you're 150lb or less, you'll still run into overheating/no charging situations (Ben Rich has posted photos of icing his down to charge). I charged with the ChatgeTank only, and 2.5 hours is hardly a fast charge, as we have seen by DigiNow on the Zero. I was using it fully within factory specs and it couldn't live up to light touring needs (300-400mi/day trips).
On a related note. The race engineering behind the Energica is one of the reasons I bought one. It's perfosmce oriented, but I'm not that spirited of a rider. It's an ok touring bike, the expansion of electrify America will determine that. Right now it looks like I can get down to Savannah GA with only 2 L2 stops. One DC in the right corridor and it could be straight up fast charging stops.
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My 2016SR had the charger die at 7000 miles. It was replaced under dealer warranty. Contactor won't always release after charging but a few key switches gets it to drop. Only get about 70 miles of range on my my battery (don't know what it's supposed to get, but that seems bad). I love it anyway.
Mine did too. Twice. I now am dealing with the third time it quit charging but they are saying it was a software issue that was fixed with a firmware update.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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However it was reliable enough for me to find the inherent flaw in the Zero design: lack of battery cooling of any sort. I couldn't go more than 120-150 miles in a given day before it would stop recharging (I live in the southern US, 108F days are not unheard of, hell it's 65F right now and we aren't even out of January) once we got past spring. The final straw was when it overheated while charging after a total of 90-miles ridden on an 80F overcast day.
I live in San Diego east county, and it's 73 here today. We often see 100+ during the summer, and I ride nearly every day, including several trips where I've fast-charged with my DigiNow several times in a day. The only overheating problem I've seen is due to my non-IPM motor (I have a 2014 SR with 45,000 miles on it), which can't take more than a couple of full-throttle stop-light races in hot weather.
Look, clearly you've had problems with your bikes, and of course that's going to leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. But come on....overheating under normal circumstances on an 80F day? I'm skeptical at best. Again, I respect that you've had problems with your bikes, and it's more than fair to report those. But I think your'e dumping more on them than they deserve. Their heat-management problems aren't THAT severe.
Spend some time on the FB group and you'd be surprised how often this IS a problem that the battery stops charging due to reaching 122F. Moshe K Levy got a 2018 for a review with Motorcycle Consumer News, lives in PA, and he couldn't commute with it (45mi all highway one way). He posted for weeks about it and asking for ways to prevent it from getting so hot on the ride in that it would charge on Level 1. I told him he'd probably be best to use his Volt's Level 1 into the ChargeTank as that at least activates the ChargeTank fan and that's better than nothing. The Level 1 being below the battery is simply a bad design decision, there really isn't room for discussion about it IMO.
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New York's climate isn't really any different than Pennsylvania's so I'm wonder just how FAST these guys are going on the highway. In the 19,000 (combined) miles I've put on my two Zeros I have never ONCE had an overheating problem. As I stated earlier, my commute is 34 miles round trip, and it is nearly all highway. However, when I'm on the highway, I am in "ECO" mode and just hold the throttle wide open. That's like a poor man's "cruise control" in that it holds me at a steady 70 mph. I've ridden in the hottest days of summer (high nineties with a digustingly high humidity since I live on an island) and never noticed any power reduction due to heat. I wonder if that's the trick? I know almost everyone here seems to avoid "ECO" mode. Once I'm off the highway I switch back to "Custom." My settings are full power/full regen and that seems to work best in our local traffic. I find "Sport" pretty useless.
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However it was reliable enough for me to find the inherent flaw in the Zero design: lack of battery cooling of any sort. I couldn't go more than 120-150 miles in a given day before it would stop recharging (I live in the southern US, 108F days are not unheard of, hell it's 65F right now and we aren't even out of January) once we got past spring. The final straw was when it overheated while charging after a total of 90-miles ridden on an 80F overcast day.
Would you mind elaborating on this? I don't fully understand the issue here.
With a 90% payload on a 80F+ day, the most I could travel on the bike was roughly 150mi before it would overheat and refuse to charge. A normal weekend is between 300-500 miles for me during riding season (March-October), on top of any commuting needs. I put 6500 miles on this bike in about 5 months, to give you an idea for my use case (and expectations). There are a few memorable times where it failed to charge: the first one was when I wanted to go check out new ChargePoint stations (installed under the Duke Energy Coal Ashe Remediation Fund) in I think it was Hamlet, NC (I'd need to check the map). I made it to Sanford on a single charge (was very low - 10% or so), and the battery was already at 113F when I parked and plugged in. Nearly all charging infrastructure, especially in small towns, is outside in direct sunlight. Black battery, lucite-encased primatic pouches, no heat fins, and a bottom-mounted EVSE that's used even when the Level 2 (which does have a fan) is active = reached 118F around 90%. I had to make the call, do I make the next leg and possibly get stuck in this place for 8+ hours (cool down and recharge time), or do I call off this trip and head to Durham to charge at my friends house and go for a swim. Opted for Durham, and it stopped charging within 4 hours of being plugged in. I had enough juice to get it home via backroads. It was well over 100F on this trip, the whole day.
The final straw was an overcast Sunday where the high was 81F. The bike had ~88% SOC when I headed out at 8am for a 30-mile joyride. I never exceeded 55mph. I rode to the brunch spot and plugged it into a 120v outlet and it charged for ~1.5 hour. Ride it another 40-ish miles, all but 7 are highway 70+, and plugged it in at my friends house. It stopped charging due to battery reaching 122F within a few hours (but I was above 50% so I could take the highway home). I traded it the following Wednesday, and didn't look back.
Let's contrast to the Energica. I rode it over 250 miles the Saturday morning after I got it (nearly a week to the day I said I'm done with Zero), 50-60 miles between DC Charges with a total of 4 back to back charges (the longest lasting 32min). Battery temp would go yellow (warm) after the charge and returned to green (normal/cool) within the 45min-1hr ride between stations. I did this in a little under 6 hours with charging. The longest trip I took on the Zero was 213 miles (one-way) to Myrtle Beach and it took me about 13 hours to get there on the 2017 SR.
I bought the bike with 150mi, it had 300mi on it less than 48 hours later, and crossed 1000 miles before I'd had it a week. I have plans to put ~7000 miles on the energica this summer just in trips to visit Electrify America stations around the southern US (VA, NC, TN, SC, GA, AL).
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New York's climate isn't really any different than Pennsylvania's so I'm wonder just how FAST these guys are going on the highway. In the 19,000 (combined) miles I've put on my two Zeros I have never ONCE had an overheating problem. As I stated earlier, my commute is 34 miles round trip, and it is nearly all highway. However, when I'm on the highway, I am in "ECO" mode and just hold the throttle wide open. That's like a poor man's "cruise control" in that it holds me at a steady 70 mph. I've ridden in the hottest days of summer (high nineties with a digustingly high humidity since I live on an island) and never noticed any power reduction due to heat. I wonder if that's the trick? I know almost everyone here seems to avoid "ECO" mode. Once I'm off the highway I switch back to "Custom." My settings are full power/full regen and that seems to work best in our local traffic. I find "Sport" pretty useless.
I used that eco mode trick a few times when I get low on power (under 25%). But I don't think hypermiling is a reasonable solution, especially when some road I have to take are 70mph and people run 85+ on them. Speaking of cruise, allegedly a spring firmware update will give my Eva cruise control. That'll come in handy this summer.
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Overheating is not a reliability issue.
It's a built in safety feature to not harm your bike.
Adjust your driving when it happens too let it cool.
For me only overheats at 128+ km/h at highway communting.
The Zero is a basic EV compared to an Energica.
But I like it for that, for 90% of users it will be good enough.
Want more, pay more.
Back on topic:
yes, I find my 2013DS very reliable.
No problems yet, no extra maintenance yet.
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The final straw was an overcast Sunday where the high was 81F. The bike had ~88% SOC when I headed out at 8am for a 30-mile joyride. I never exceeded 55mph. I rode to the brunch spot and plugged it into a 120v outlet and it charged for ~1.5 hour. Ride it another 40-ish miles, all but 7 are highway 70+, and plugged it in at my friends house. It stopped charging due to battery reaching 122F within a few hours (but I was above 50% so I could take the highway home). I traded it the following Wednesday, and didn't look back.
I can't speak to anybody else's experience, but that is NOT how my bike behaves. I can ride (and have ridden) all day, ~70 mph on the freeway, charging at ~6kW with my DigiNow, with no signs of overheating. If I try to bump my cruising speed into the 75-80 mph range, overheating becomes a possibility, but the range reduction isn't worth the higher cruising speed anyhow. When charging with the on-board (~.2kW) charger, a Zero should be cooling down pretty fast. That's just not enough charging current to cause a battery to heat up.
As I've said, the overheating issues i have had are with my non-IPM motor, which can't take much hard riding on a hot day. The battery is fine with light touring duty, which is all you can achieve with an electric motorcycle these days.
From what I've read here, my experience is far more typical for us Zero owners than yours has been. Several of us DO light touring with our Zeros, and the overheating issues are very manageable. Perhaps there was something wrong with your bike, or perhaps you're exaggerating your experience, but I think very few Zero owners are going to experience what you've described.
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The ambient temps really are the make or break. I can ride at whatever speed I want and never overheat, unless it's warm out. Charging after a high speed run, I can always charge at level 1. Level 2, depends on ambient temps greatly. Level 2 with level 1 charger engaged at the same time, seems to heat the battery quickly and unless it's cold out, doesn't go well.
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I can't speak to anybody else's experience, but that is NOT how my bike behaves. I can ride (and have ridden) all day, ~70 mph on the freeway, charging at ~6kW with my DigiNow, with no signs of overheating. If I try to bump my cruising speed into the 75-80 mph range, overheating becomes a possibility, but the range reduction isn't worth the higher cruising speed anyhow. When charging with the on-board (~.2kW) charger, a Zero should be cooling down pretty fast. That's just not enough charging current to cause a battery to heat up.
Where is your Diginow mounted? All my problems were on *stock* hardware. Modifications shouldn't be necessary, IMO.
From what I've read here, my experience is far more typical for us Zero owners than yours has been. Several of us DO light touring with our Zeros, and the overheating issues are very manageable. Perhaps there was something wrong with your bike, or perhaps you're exaggerating your experience, but I think very few Zero owners are going to experience what you've described.
Except that there's evidence -- on the ZMOG group -- of people who have. I'm not alone, and I do not appreciate your insinuation that I'd exaggerate.
Glad it works for you. It didn't for me (and I tried twice). I am also 100% confident I can replicate the problem on your bike.
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Glad it works for you. It didn't for me (and I tried twice). I am also 100% confident I can replicate the problem on your bike.
Okay, this reminds me of that classic old joke where the patient tells the doctor: "Doc, it hurts when I do this." The doctor responds: "Well then, don't DO that!"
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Where is your Diginow mounted? All my problems were on *stock* hardware. Modifications shouldn't be necessary, IMO.
My Diginow is mounted in the "tank", but I kept the stock charger in the stock location. I can charge with either one all day long and not overheat the battery, unless (as I said) I'm riding >75mph and fast-charging with the Diginow, in which case it becomes possible to overheat on a hot day.
Except that there's evidence -- on the ZMOG group -- of people who have. I'm not alone, and I do not appreciate your insinuation that I'd exaggerate.
Glad it works for you. It didn't for me (and I tried twice). I am also 100% confident I can replicate the problem on your bike.
You're free to not appreciate whatever you'd like, but I'll further state that anecdotal evidence is not convincing evidence of a design problem.
I'm 100% confident you CAN'T replicate the problem on my bike with the stock charger. I have 45,000 miles of anecdotal evidence that you can't.
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Where is your Diginow mounted? All my problems were on *stock* hardware. Modifications shouldn't be necessary, IMO.
My Diginow is mounted in the "tank", but I kept the stock charger in the stock location. I can charge with either one all day long and not overheat the battery, unless (as I said) I'm riding >75mph and fast-charging with the Diginow, in which case it becomes possible to overheat on a hot day.
Except that there's evidence -- on the ZMOG group -- of people who have. I'm not alone, and I do not appreciate your insinuation that I'd exaggerate.
Glad it works for you. It didn't for me (and I tried twice). I am also 100% confident I can replicate the problem on your bike.
You're free to not appreciate whatever you'd like, but I'll further state that anecdotal evidence is not convincing evidence of a design problem.
I'm 100% confident you CAN'T replicate the problem on my bike with the stock charger. I have 45,000 miles of anecdotal evidence that you can't.
Bring it to NC and leave it with me for a weekend. I promise you I can cause it to refuse to charge after a single 90 mile ride. Did it on a demo, and ours. Great you haven't hit the problem, but it's a problem nonetheless.
Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
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kcfoxie, Atlanta here, I'm not saying your wrong with this but I'm wondering have you ever got a temperature reading off the battery aka regular thermometer? I remember old posts saying the thermistors weren't correct sometimes. Some guys had them changed out and fixed their overheating. There is a video of a homemade electric racing bike and the guy had those old liquid crystal aquarium thermometers for his battery. That won't help override the Zero's MBB heat safety lock out but may give you an idea of the surface temp.
I've never had my old DS overheat or refuse to charge (from heat, I have had it not charge from cold) but I've never rode like you either.
Also for what it's worth, I bought a very cheap, but it works, cover off ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/All-Weather-Motorcycle-Cover-Motor-Bike-Outdoor-Indoor-Waterproof-M-Snug-Fit/141965828657?fits=Make%3AZero&hash=item210dd2a231:g:YjsAAOSwlfxXF6fJ:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true
It has held up better then I thought it would. It has a silvery reflective bottom end that should work as a good sun block for the battery and like a water resistant (not proof) nylon on the top that lets heat vent out and keeps the dew off when I go to get on it at night.
I lock my jacket up with a bike cable lock that I run through a sleeve and the rear wheel so no one can roll it away too easy. The jacket has never been damp from dew or sprinkle rain.
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For 10$ you can buy a cheap IR thermometer...
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A cheap IR thermometer won't read through the battery case at all. It's basically reflective in the IR band that one would care about for measuring battery temperatures.
The monolith temperature readings in the logs list 7 sensors and an ambient sensor. It would be helpful to know the locations of these sensors (even if they vary by pack design per year).