ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Fred on January 03, 2019, 02:31:51 PM
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It seems to just be teaser info at the moment, but interesting that they're claiming a "new platform"...
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-srf/
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Let the speculation begin! I'm wondering if the "F" stands for fast charge (as in CCS/chademo), judging by the picture it doesn't mean fairing, unless the headlight fairing counts?
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I strongly believe it means fairing, but that picture makes me wonder. Although it doesn't reveal much, it doesn't reveal much of a fairing.
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Surely someone else is better at photo editing than I am. I brightened up the pic to get a better look. I'm not the best at this, but to kick start the conversation, I see:
1. Handgrips look upgraded
2. LED headlight
3. Red stripe on tank - where have I seen that before recently? Looks like there's also a red version with white stripe.
4. Something looks strange/different to me about the fender, but with just the one angle, I can't quite place it.
5. The display is different, or it's got a new plastic cover.
I'm going to take a guess that this will be something like the Black Forest Edition that packages a few upgrades to make it "premium".
Edit: I found this:
"On 25.02.2019, the wait is over! - The new SR / F from ZERO MOTORCYCLES is presented!
It's only known that this is a Naked Bike / Streetfighter bike that will be outfitted with the latest electronic helmets such as Traction Control, Curve-ABS, etc., which are also necessary for the enormous performance data! The maximum torque will easily surpass the 150 Nm of the previous Zero Motorcyles top model, and also the performance and top speed will be far higher. Zero Motorcycles at it's best! www.zeromotorcycles.at" at https://www.1000ps.at/motorrad-haendler-news-detail-161326-chilli-x-news-die-neue-zero-motorcycles-sr-f
I've never been to that website before, so I don't know who they are or what they represent, but it appears to be presented as fact, not speculation.
Edit: The above quote is also found on www.zeromotorcycles.at, which I assume is an officially sanctioned Zero website in Austria. http://www.zeromotorcycles.at/index_at.html
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F for fast?
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F for fast?
+1
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I think it's going to be F for Fudge, as in the "Oh Fudge" edition...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11q4q3S57jE
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I thought the "F" stood for "Fancy."
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The "R" already indicates a fast version. F obviously stands for f***!
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I signed up for the email although I'll see it here first.
Have yall seen Brandon's post for his super FX on FB (130MPH)? I hope he lives long enough to make a video on it.
I thought a FX(S)R was on the way and this bike was it but it looks more like an Eva I guess.
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F is obviously for Farkle. The new model will have more handlebar space for GPS mounts than any other EV on the market!
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Well the email says 2/25/19 so we got to wait.
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"Much more than a new model, the Zero SR / F is a completely new platform, the Zero SR / F combines state-of-the-art technology with the most powerful powertrain ever produced by Zero Motorcycles," says official spokesman .
"Zero Motorcycles announces the imminent arrival of a new machine. The SR / F born of a blank sheet is presented as the 'biggest leap in brand since its inception', the appointment is set at the end of February."
from https://www.caradisiac.com/zero-motorcycles-une-nouvelle-moto-en-approche-la-sr-f-173464.htm
What gives? I've only seen statements about higher performance on foreign language sites. The one above is referenced as a quote from an official spokesman. Am I looking at the wrong places, or is it really not on Zero's website or anywhere in English? Are these other sites making stuff up, are they leaking information that's supposed to be close-hold, or is this all done with a purpose?
With a 2018 that fits my needs, I'm not on the market to buy anything. However, I'd love to test ride one.
Updated list:
1. Handgrips look upgraded
2. LED headlight
3. Red stripe on tank - where have I seen that before recently? Looks like there's also a red version with white stripe.
4. Something looks strange/different to me about the fender, but with just the one angle, I can't quite place it.
5. The display is different, or it's got a new plastic cover.
6. Traction control
7. Cornering ABS
8. More power and torque -> higher top speed
It's not much of a stretch to guess that this will carry a premium price tag. It's probably not a coincidence that the electric Harley starts taking pre-orders this month. I'll wager the SR/F will have little things to match the LiveWire like color display and a good chance at bigger things like fast charge capability.
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We've been told for years that the difficulty to wheelie and the lack of initial snap in "throttle" response has been caused by Zero's programming which was done to prevent unintentional wheel spin or looping. Hopefully, with integrated traction control, Zero will allow a more direct power response or maybe, if we're lucky, user controllable power response, beyond just the custom map which doesn't really allow much tuning.
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Possible the "F" stands for "Future."
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F-our stroke engine is my guess!
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The "F" means that the SR/A though SR/E prototypes crashed and burned.
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Now you guys are starting to sound like me. ::)
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I wonder if this is something that will compete with Energica.
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I am hoping it is more than 18 kWh with 110, 220, dc charging.
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I'm eager to see what the "new platform" will be. They really should have teased this with the announcement of the MY19 bikes though, imagine just buying a fully loaded SR wanting the best of the best and then riding it home to find this announcement.
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Didn't HD say they're announcing their e-bike specs around this time also? Unrelated I'm sure...
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Damn Zero...I'm close to pulling the trigger and now have to wait longer to see what this is
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So, thanks to competition (Energica, HD) Zero is finally made to upgrade a little !!
This is why every brand needs competition: evolve ! evolution !
8)
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did they user better motor like this for exemple :
http://emrax.com/products/emrax-228/
very good ratio kw/kg
100kw/12kg
zero motor : 50kw/20kg
but they is other motor witch are very good too
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F-our stroke engine is my guess!
"F" in a model number can also mean four cylinder, such as the Honda VF and VFR. I bet one of us is right.
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OK Guys, guess what? The SR/F will be on a 200v platform allowing speed charging. Furthermore, the battery and motor will be boosted with a 100 hp and probably a 18.8 KW battery. The frame will be more solid and a bit lower with more substantial brakes and forks. Traction control will also be featured, along with an excellent display.
Price point will hover around 22-25k
Performance will be stupid fast and top speed will be around 130
I have inferred this from Zero so lets see how close I come in February
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Ok for fun I'll take the low end.
Small front fairing and LED lights with wind screen and better seat and upgraded paint job.
I hope Evilthor wins.
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OK Guys, guess what? The SR/F will be on a 200v platform allowing speed charging. Furthermore, the battery and motor will be boosted with a 100 hp and probably a 18.8 KW battery. The frame will be more solid and a bit lower with more substantial brakes and forks. Traction control will also be featured, along with an excellent display.
Price point will hover around 22-25k
Performance will be stupid fast and top speed will be around 130
I have inferred this from Zero so lets see how close I come in February
I would hope they would extend the specs a bit further tbh. I would like to think moving to a completely new platform/architecture affords that kind of flexibility. We already have 18 kw so why not a bump to 20? Perhaps weight? Though assuming the new motor is more efficient, then perhaps 18kw is plenty and keeps the weight down?
Otherwise I think the rest not only should be included, it should be expected! tft, TC, better suspension, CCS, etc.
This will be playing with Harley and Energica and they either exist or already announced these items a while back.
How about an 11kw on board L2? :)
C'mon Zero, let's push the envelope for $21-25k!
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What I am thinking about is the new super high efficient motor so that you can get by with a 18.8 and still have city mileage of around 300 and highway of 150
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Ah, I see, that makes sense.
I would settle for 250/150 legit range with 100hp, 140ish tq (80kw motor)
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What I cant wait for is when we have a 500 mile cruising range and 15 minute recharge and all the ICE riders will say they cruise 1000 miles a day and only have 2 minutes to fuel up.
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Ok well electric motors are already super efficient like in the 90% range to most gas engines being 30%. The ICE only wins because of the super energy density of gas overcoming this bad use of energy.
So we won't get 300 and 150 miles of range from the same battery size from better motors.
New battery types on the other hand and we could get high kWhs in the same size which is the dream at this point.
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Traction control, cornering ABS, and a motor that actually feels like 100 ft/lbs of torque would be fine with me. The SR accelerates very nicely, but it doesn't feel like a bike with 100 ft/lbs of torque, and there is no speed in which you can snap the throttle and easily lift the front wheel. A bike claiming more torque than a 1290 super duke ought to be able to lift the front wheel with ease!
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Traction control, cornering ABS, and a motor that actually feels like 100 ft/lbs of torque would be fine with me. The SR accelerates very nicely, but it doesn't feel like a bike with 100 ft/lbs of torque, and there is no speed in which you can snap the throttle and easily lift the front wheel. A bike claiming more torque than a 1290 super duke ought to be able to lift the front wheel with ease!
Don't forget that torque is measured at the motor output, and doesn't account for drivetrain gearing. All those other bikes have low gears (which they must have because they can't operate well at low rpm), which multiplies their torque output. https://itstillruns.com/calculate-torque-through-gear-reducer-7628270.html Our bikes have a single, high gear, so we don't get as much torque multiplication at lower road speeds. So yes, other bikes put out more thrust in first gear than we can in our only gear, so they can wheelie through motor torque alone.
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Traction control and greater safety features like dual front discs are appealing.
Higher level charging and more robust and reliable stock equipment are appealing.
Higher power output is absolutely undesirable. My girlfriend is already very uneasy on the DSR and I would de-rate any increase in powertrain output for all riding purposes. The 2016 DSR is as powerful as my V-Strom and much more torquey.
I want a bike that imbues confidence, not a dank wheelie machine. If increasing power finally cracks the sales numbers Zero needs, more power to them, but they need to not alienate moderate daily riders, because it’s those riders that appeal outside the current motorcycle market.
The current Zero platform has too many gotchas when circumstances aren’t ideal, and this lack of focus on robustness is costing them long term ownership and making the bikes less appealing than the core powertrain deserves.
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If Evilthor is correct and the new platform is 200 volts then it might have CHAdeMO DCFC but not CCS. Just means another outlet needed. Still it is far better than the current L2 charging speed. I am assuming 200 volts is the fully charged voltage which is as low as CCS goes. CHAdeMO goes down to 50 volts. Energica when down to around 2% SOC is at about 290 volts. Fully charged it is about 320 volts.
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I don't need traction control; all the traction control I need is in my right wrist. Better brakes would be nice. Doesn't even have to be dual-disc (which would add unsprung weight), but a nice, radial-mounted Brembo monobloc front caliper would make a real difference on a sufficiently large diameter rotor (just ride any Buell and you'll see what I mean).
LED lighting is VERY nice. Now that I have them on my new car I can see why the fuss. I would like a stiffer frame (I noticed the seat bolts don't line up when on the sidestand... but line up just fine when I raise the rear wheel on a track stand). Nicer footpegs and controls would go a long way to making the bike feel "premium."
Include fast charging as standard. Like Brian, I don't really need more power. Heck I don't even have an SR, "just" an S, and I find 80 lbs/ft of torque for a 400 lbs motorcycle is MORE than enough. My friend on his 1290 Superduke had a hard time keeping up with me on my little ol' Zero through the twisties.
And last but not least, incorporate Hollywood Electric's fairing. They already did the work, just license and resell it as a standard component. Improving streamlining is still the best way to improve range and rider comfort.
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Ok for fun I'll take the low end.
Small front fairing and LED lights with wind screen and better seat and upgraded paint job.
I hope Evilthor wins.
Read my posts on page 1. More power, more torque, higher top speed, traction control and cornering ABS are all promised by Zero unless this is a fake website : http://zeromotorcycles.at/index_at.html -- click on "news" at the top.
Higher voltage has been speculated. I wouldn't be surprised. Zero has been cautious for safety reasons, but "everyone else is doing it", so maybe they feel the pressure to stay competitive and/or more comfortable with the risk that comes with the higher potential now.
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Hi domingo3, yeah the post above the one you quoted from me gave a lot of high end specs that I would love to be the case but the last part of the post used the word "inferred" so at this point we can't take all that as fact.
After years of new model year "wish lists" and being disappointed I lowered expectations like I said just for fun.
The link is in German and that info is not on Zero's webpage nor in the "get notified" email so I'll just wait and see what comes and again I hope the high end specs are correct.
Cheers.
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If Evilthor is correct and the new platform is 200 volts then it might have CHAdeMO DCFC but not CCS. Just means another outlet needed. Still it is far better than the current L2 charging speed. I am assuming 200 volts is the fully charged voltage which is as low as CCS goes. CHAdeMO goes down to 50 volts. Energica when down to around 2% SOC is at about 290 volts. Fully charged it is about 320 volts.
I'm sure if it's in the 200V range then it'll have CCS rather than CHAdeMO, which is dead in the near future. Also, some CHAdeMO chargers don't actually step down below 200V, which is why Zero stopped their integration project in 2013. The only(?) reason for Zero to change the system voltage is to make L3 charging possible (and that's a pretty good reason), which means CCS/Mennekes compatibility as those seem to be the winners in US and EU.
I wonder if they'd need to introduce an active cooling system, especially given what we've seen with the Nissan Leaf / Rapidgate [1].
[1] For those that don't follow EV cars, the Nissan Leaf was one of the very first EVs, and like our Zeros it does not have "active battery thermal management", in other words liquid cooling, radiators, fans, etc. This decision has caused Leafs sold in the US southwest to see massive battery degradation, and now that DCFC is becoming more common Leaf owners are finding that it's impossible to actually reach the advertised charge rates on prolonged drives due to the BMS refusing to commit thermal suicide. In particular you can't even hit rates over ~30KW when distance driving in subzero temps.
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I don't see zero adding thermal management anytime soon. The weight and space required would cut their advertised range, and general consumers don't know or care about active thermal management.
The design of the monolith is about getting that range number as high as possible, not for battery longevity, and there's no reason for Zero to change those priorities at the moment.
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I don't see zero adding thermal management anytime soon. The weight and space required would cut their advertised range, and general consumers don't know or care about active thermal management.
The design of the monolith is about getting that range number as high as possible, not for battery longevity, and there's no reason for Zero to change those priorities at the moment.
That's wrong
Manufacturers such as Energica and BMW have proven that passive cooling (with air) is easy to implement and efficient. This does not require money or knowledge.
The main problem of Zero in fast loading is simply the tension !!! At 116 volts and over 7kW charging line just too much power is flowing that generates heat !!!
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SR means "Fast"
/F means "& Furious"
;D
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That's wrong
Manufacturers such as Energica and BMW have proven that passive cooling (with air) is easy to implement and efficient. This does not require money or knowledge.
The main problem of Zero in fast loading is simply the tension !!! At 116 volts and over 7kW charging line just too much power is flowing that generates heat !!!
Money or knowledge, no, materials, space, and weight, yes. The cheapest energica is several grand more than the most expensive zero and their advertised range for "eco" mode is half of what zero says for city speeds. Their reported highway range is also about half of Zeros.
The i3 is extremely expensive for the range it provides as well.
I'm not saying zero cannot add thermal management, I'm saying that it would require a sacrifice in range, price, or both, and that zero is unlikely to take that tradeoff.
Is it "easy?" I suppose so, everything is relative. But no matter what your solution is, it's going to take up space and it's going to take up materials. Zero often pride themselves in having the most energy density, and they do that by cramming their batteries as close together with no active management. Without the bike getting bigger adding anything inbetween, even just channels for air, is going to take up space and lead to less cells in the monolith.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm not even saying it's a bad idea, just that doing so would be against Zero's current strategy.
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BMW I3??
BMW c evolution ;D
No one said they had to make the ventilation vertical like Energica !! Rather horizonal like BMW. Needed for that down (2cm/0,065 feed) have you or?
And what costs and weighs such an aluminum construction?
https://motomobil.at/test-technik/ebikes-pedelecs/426-bmw-c-evolution-fahrbericht
The air duct at BMW is so massive because it is a supporting part of the chassis
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Let me add some more to the teaser than I have inferred from company chat.
The bike will have complete LED lights, cornering ABS and torque control, multiple custom settings, forced air flow cooling, and believe it or not, a few options on color.
Onboard fast charging will be standard. It looks like the price point will be closer to 25k.
Comparison with the Harley will be ridiculous
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Why would comparison with the Harley be ridiculous?
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Let me add some more to the teaser than I have inferred from company chat.
The bike will have complete LED lights, .............
I hope your right.
What I see in the image provided by domingo3 are the turn signals are the presently used incandescent type.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8551.0;attach=10000
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Why would comparison with the Harley be ridiculous?
It would seem to me that the Zero SF is probably a direct attempt by Zero to counteract the LiveWire introduction. Zero could likely provide the same sort of features (and likely more so) for less money and perhaps also beat the LiveWire to the market. No doubt Zero could do a lot with another $5-10K increase in price on a new model. But I hope they hired an Italian to do their styling this time. If the bike doesn't look really nice, it won't sell very well at the $20K+ market, no matter what the features. And I think the LiveWire looks pretty nice for a "naked"-style motorcycle.
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Which technical data Harley justify a price of $ 29,000?!
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Which technical data Harley justify a price of $ 29,000?!
Cross-posting from the HD Livewire forum here. I couldn't have said it better myself.
I think it is safe to say at this point that the specs of the LiveWire are not very impressive based on the price and that Harley will have a tough time selling them. But no one buys a H-D ICE bike based on specs and price either so in this case why should price and specs be a concern for anyone interested in the LiveWire?
Back on topic, I hope that SR/F will absorb the R&D costs and the tech will trickle down to the other models. Even little things like being able to program more than one riding mode would be welcomed.
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The Harley Livewire specs are not very impressive. Zero will crush their specs and probably their price with the SR/F.
It is actually genius on Zero's part. Harley does all the hype about electric bikes, and anyone who shops, buy the Zero
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The Harley Livewire specs are not very impressive. Zero will crush their specs and probably their price with the SR/F.
It is actually genius on Zero's part. Harley does all the hype about electric bikes, and anyone who shops, buy the Zero
I believe one could make the same statements about Harley vs "metric cruisers", but Harley does sell a lot of bikes. The heritage and lifestyle that sells their cruisers will likely not cross over. Frankly, I don't know who the target audience is for the LiveWire. It's got to be people with a lot of money (plenty of those), don't care about performance or value (still a fair amount), and want an electric motorcycle (not so many of them).
I think even the SR/F will have a pretty limited market. The SR is already an excellent bike. I'm sure a lot of people would love to ride one and there's a good handful that would buy one, but probably is made more for the purpose of showcasing Zero's capability to make a premium bike rather than direct profitability.
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July 2018, dealer tells me of a "entirely new platform" coming after I showed interest in the FXS - I'm glad Zero pulled through and he didn't lie!
The only thing my dealer said was that it was either coming in 2019 or 2020, that 'fast charging' would come stock (so maybe the F does stand for fast charging?) but IDK - and he was pretty vague on everything else.
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We've been told for years that the difficulty to wheelie and the lack of initial snap in "throttle" response has been caused by Zero's programming which was done to prevent unintentional wheel spin or looping. Hopefully, with integrated traction control, Zero will allow a more direct power response or maybe, if we're lucky, user controllable power response, beyond just the custom map which doesn't really allow much tuning.
With a wider rear tyre and all the torque on tap from a standing start, I think the F would just mean more fun! Enough torque and grip to pick the front wheel up would certainly make things interesting. Torque and wheelie control to save the spills would mean the average rider could get off the line that much quicker and really put the sports bikes to shame. It'll certainly be interesting to see what Zero come up with!
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I can't understand why anybody would think more power would be undesirable when it's so easily programmable with separate "maps" on an electric bike. Like it or not, power and torque figures sell a lot of bikes, which is why Zero has been touting the SR's torque for years. The problem is, while the single gear ratio has made the bike extremely easy to ride and easy to accelerate, it has come at the cost of performance, which doesn't live up to the advertised torque values. I'd personally love a "dank wheelie machine," even if I only rarely put the bike in that mode and rode 90% of the time in a standard, wheelie and traction controlled, sport mode.
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Seems like the majority wants the F to be for fast & furious which would be fun. I'll vote for frugal, give us a economical commuter
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F as in the F*ing cruise control that they have refused to add.
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I can't understand why anybody would think more power would be undesirable...
There's really only one valid reason (other than plain old fear and/or naysaying), and that's cost. As the racers say, speed costs, how fast to you want to go?
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The power problem is that passengers don't like getting jerked around.
In my power complaint, I pointed out that I'd de-rate the bike, but if Zero doesn't let me de-rate Sport mode, then I can still toggle to that mode and accidentally make my girlfriend nearly physically ill.
They're free to invest in power if it justifies sales growth, but I'm free to decide that it doesn't make the bike more valuable to me. I see value in dual front rotors, better components, and a sturdier and more extensible frame, but any additional power over the DSR offers me literally nothing but trouble.
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How often do you find yourself changing the mode accidentally?
I've never had that problem, but I still agree that all modes should be customizable. For me eco and sports default setting are both unusable. Would also like To see these modes customizable on the bike itself without having to rely on the app to connect.
I also agree that added power doesn't add any value to the bike. The SR is more than fast enough for my needs and for reasonabl riding.
Energica is faster than the zero but it's useless to me because it safrices range for power. It's effective range would be "going nowhere really fast" for me.
Quality of life upgrades are what I want to see. Cruise control, tft screen adjustable modes, optional GPS tracking, LED lights, farings, etc, lvl 1-3 charging, etc.
Those are the things that would make me want to buy. I won't say no to more power but it us entirely unnecessary and doesn't increase the value of the bike to me. Nobody buys a zero for bragging rights, other motorists aren't impressed and don't care.
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Agree. Quality, customer service, growing & pleasing the community. What we all need is more sales, a second hand market, and Zero growing its sales so much we're sure they'll survive the next economic slowdown. Not fancy marketing - there is no more competition to beat !
The power problem is that passengers don't like getting jerked around.
In my power complaint, I pointed out that I'd de-rate the bike, but if Zero doesn't let me de-rate Sport mode, then I can still toggle to that mode and accidentally make my girlfriend nearly physically ill.
They're free to invest in power if it justifies sales growth, but I'm free to decide that it doesn't make the bike more valuable to me. I see value in dual front rotors, better components, and a sturdier and more extensible frame, but any additional power over the DSR offers me literally nothing but trouble.
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After the what is it questions are answered then the when question comes up. Will this be in dealers by spring? Is it just a showcase for 2020's platform with the 2019 models being really 2018 and 1/2 models with some standard equipment and color changes?
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Some more details:
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/zero-sr-f-electric-sport-bike-leak/
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Some more details:
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/zero-sr-f-electric-sport-bike-leak/
Two things caught my attention in that article: The projected price, which appears to be in LiveWire territory and this statement:
"A recent analyst report pegs Zero as having only sold 750 motorcycles in 2018 – a figure that is below the unit sales of Alta Motors, which closed its doors several months ago." :o
If this report is true, I can't see the SR/F pulling Zero's financial bacon out of the pan. Not only will the price, which is likely to be around $25K USD, not generate volume sales (no matter how good the bike is), but sport bike styling is not hot in the market right now. ADV bikes are all the rage at the moment, which Zero certainly knows, as they seem to promote the DR models to magazine reviewers much more than the SR versions.
I see the SR/F being more of a counter to the LiveWire, and maybe the Energica, than a money-maker for Zero. However, it will certainly generate a lot of interest in the small EV community and it will get some good reviews in the motorcycle press. Plus, it will be compared with the LiveWire and Energica due to its price and the SR/F is likely to come out on top in many categories during those comparisons. So there is that. ???
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Well they say a 20kWh Zero will get 120 miles combined but Zero's webpage shows 150 miles for a 2019 S with power tank (18 kWh) so that is my first flag. The next is the Alta sales numbers which all I can say is our Alta section on the forum sure doesn't reflect over 750 new owners.
Reporters have enough trouble getting the story right when they get spoon fed the information, when they try to scoop the story it's a bird cage liner at best.
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They have their own forum, it's pretty high speed. I wouldn't use this one if I were them either. :p https://altaownersforum.com/dbtech-membermap/?fbclid=IwAR1hrLbHULrWiSCsBG8g6_llXRBxEbvWw6qz_9_Shxj6CUYkBMAHtDTQRl8
The 1000 Alta units is what Elektrek says also for 2018. https://electrek.co/2018/10/18/alta-motors-closing-operations/
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Always skeptical when an unnamed "analyst" shares numbers with us.
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I believe you can look at customer VIN's being shared and get a pretty good picture of these numbers.
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I really wish you guys would stop calling the S/SR a "Sport Bike." It's a STANDARD bike, like what the Japanese use to sell by the HUNDREDS back in the seventies and eighties. Energica sells a sport bike and a couple of standards. Lightning sells a sport bike. Zero does not, it sells standards and dual-purpose bikes.
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Zero themselves call the SR a naked sport, which is the same as standard. Where a fully faired bike like the lightning is a supersport. It can be a bit confusing because both styles tend to get shortened to "sport" but we could argue semantics all day.
To people that aren't riders it's all harley or crotch rocket, if they consider my Zero to be a "sports" bike because they're not educated on Standard/Cruiser/ADV/Supersport/etc I don't see a reason to get upset about it.
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I refuse to believe that Zero has sold only 750 bikes in 2018.
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S and SR make you lean forward, NOT a Japanese standard, more a sport tourer. I replaced my S stock bars with DS bars and still lean forward, just less. Still not quite standard.
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I refuse to believe that Zero has sold only 750 bikes in 2018.
176 Zeros were newly registered 2018 in Germany
More of 21 them are dealer vehicles
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Without zero publishing numbers all we can really do is speculate in terms of worldwide sales. Individual countries might have data available but the US does not.
The idea that Zero is somehow selling less overall bikes (than alta) while being better known, having a bigger dealer network, having a wider range of bikes for a wider range of riders and having a similar starting price, well to me that's pretty far-fetched.
I would not be surprised if 2018 was a slow year for Zero though. With improvements continuing to be minimal and offerings from other manufacturers on the horizon, 2018 seems like it was a risky time to buy a Zero. I personally held off buying a new Zero in 2018 because I was expecting 2019 to bring a new platform. When the 2019's were mostly the same I decided to buy used.
Hopefully the SR/F's new platform will be the basis for the 2020 S/DS bikes and we'll start seeing real changes in these bikes.
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S and SR make you lean forward, NOT a Japanese standard, more a sport tourer. I replaced my S stock bars with DS bars and still lean forward, just less. Still not quite standard.
The reason for the forward lean is that those bikes aren't equipped with windshields. If you sat bolt upright, you'd be a SAIL. If you look at the spec differences between the S and DS models, you'll note that the DS models have less range with all things being equal. That's because the bolt upright seating position creates a LOT more wind drag. It has nothing to do with being a "sport bike."
To me (at least), the most important thing an electric bike should have is RANGE. ANYTHING to increase range is acceptable, even that little, teeny-tiny bit of forward lean designed into the ergonomics. Sit on a Ducati Panigale or a Suzuki GSXR1000 and see what a REAL sportbike lean feels like.
If you tried to ride the S models like a real sportbike you'd quickly learn that there's a LOT more to a sport bike than a slight forward lean, too. For one thing, the pegs will drag ridiculously early compared to any honest-to-God sportbike on the planet. Sit on any REAL sportbike and you'll see your feet will be somewhere near your buttocks and your knees will be bent at considerably more than 90 degrees.
They are STANDARDS. Yes, you might feel a little bit of weight on your wrists sitting on the bike in the showroom, but motorcycles are not meant to be static. At anything above a jogging pace there is enough windblast to take that weight off your wrists. Any faster and you'll want to angle your body even lower to get out of the wind as your arms will be hanging on trying to keep from being blown off the back of the bike (that's TIRING by the way... even the little commuter shield Zero sells goes a long way to alleviating that).
That's also why I never judge a bike just by sitting on it in the showroom. That doesn't really tell me anything about the bike (other than how hard the seat is). I need to be able to RIDE it before I make a decision. In 2015 I got to ride an SR, and even though I didn't really need all that extra power, the ergonomics and overall feel and handling of the bike is what sold me. As soon as I was able, I bought my S model. Same range, ergonomics and handling, but I saved $3,000 in purchase price, and $400 a year in insurance costs.
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What Zero said in the press is around 2000 sales per year. In some countries like France, they publish yearly statistics. Numbers are very small:
2016 : 104 units sold
2017 : 132 units sold (vs 830 for BMW Evo, 2 for Energica, 11 for KTM)
If you do a back of the envelop calculation based on France's GDP/population versus other countries where Zero do sell models, this is coherent with a 1500 to 2000 total sales.
Which brings me to my point : Zero's focus today should not be extending the number of models, but making existing customers hyper happy and ensuring a second hand market develops. Of they'll be restricted to a rich toy customer market, which is probably not sustainable in the long term.
Without zero publishing numbers all we can really do is speculate in terms of worldwide sales. Individual countries might have data available but the US does not.
The idea that Zero is somehow selling less overall bikes (than alta) while being better known, having a bigger dealer network, having a wider range of bikes for a wider range of riders and having a similar starting price, well to me that's pretty far-fetched.
I would not be surprised if 2018 was a slow year for Zero though. With improvements continuing to be minimal and offerings from other manufacturers on the horizon, 2018 seems like it was a risky time to buy a Zero. I personally held off buying a new Zero in 2018 because I was expecting 2019 to bring a new platform. When the 2019's were mostly the same I decided to buy used.
Hopefully the SR/F's new platform will be the basis for the 2020 S/DS bikes and we'll start seeing real changes in these bikes.
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If I look at the world map with Zero Dealers, there are only big markets. USA and Europe. In Europe, it will be France and Germany that have the most sales! There live most of the people and have the necessary money.
750 units I think too little but 2000?
My guess is 1000-1200 units per year
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Nah, France alone was responsible for 211 registrations, Germany did about 150 and the Netherlands did 84. I don't have the numbers for Norway but they are a rich EV powerhouse and then we even't have started with the US and Canada yet. 2000 seems pretty doable to me.
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2000 is consistent with serial number tracking and is probably short a bit. 2017 sales were probably at that level and 2018 projected to be higher by 25% at last check mid year.
These aren’t bad, but need to be closer to 10,000, and definitely above 5,000. Zero needs a solid sales jump, and the SR/F could be it by combining new systems upgrades with HD marketing and sales halo.
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2000 is consistent with serial number tracking and is probably short a bit. 2017 sales were probably at that level and 2018 projected to be higher by 25% at last check mid year.
These aren’t bad, but need to be closer to 10,000, and definitely above 5,000. Zero needs a solid sales jump, and the SR/F could be it by combining new systems upgrades with HD marketing and sales halo.
But that is going to depend upon the price of the SR/F when it arrives. ???
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2000 is consistent with serial number tracking and is probably short a bit. 2017 sales were probably at that level and 2018 projected to be higher by 25% at last check mid year.
These aren’t bad, but need to be closer to 10,000, and definitely above 5,000. Zero needs a solid sales jump, and the SR/F could be it by combining new systems upgrades with HD marketing and sales halo.
But that is going to depend upon the price of the SR/F when it arrives. ???
Sure. So what? It’ll easily cost less than the LiveWire and all of Zero’s existing models will cost even less.
It’s not like anyone can predict what will happen. I’m speculating on what the strategy is and what seems plausible. This whole thread doesn’t mean anything but at least we gathered some rumors.
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Nah, France alone was responsible for 211 registrations, Germany did about 150 and the Netherlands did 84. I don't have the numbers for Norway but they are a rich EV powerhouse and then we even't have started with the US and Canada yet. 2000 seems pretty doable to me.
Models from 2017 were also sold in 2018. New dealers were added and all dealers needed registered 2018 models as demonstration
Maybe the 750 units were built in 2018 and sold to the customers.?!
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Switzerland and Belgium seem to be quite active too (i have seen several used FX for sale there). So your 360 could be 400-420 for Eu
US it 5x the GDP of Europe, so if you add Canada and the US, 2000-2500 look probable.
Nah, France alone was responsible for 211 registrations, Germany did about 150 and the Netherlands did 84. I don't have the numbers for Norway but they are a rich EV powerhouse and then we even't have started with the US and Canada yet. 2000 seems pretty doable to me.
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Why would comparison with the Harley be ridiculous?
It would seem to me that the Zero SF is probably a direct attempt by Zero to counteract the LiveWire introduction. Zero could likely provide the same sort of features (and likely more so) for less money and perhaps also beat the LiveWire to the market. No doubt Zero could do a lot with another $5-10K increase in price on a new model. But I hope they hired an Italian to do their styling this time. If the bike doesn't look really nice, it won't sell very well at the $20K+ market, no matter what the features. And I think the LiveWire looks pretty nice for a "naked"-style motorcycle.
^This.
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WTB more leaks. This anticipation is killing me!
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WTB more leaks. This anticipation is killing me!
+1. I realize the marketing tease is intended to stir up interest, but come on! This is almost more exciting than the comeback of DeMarcus Cousins.
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Cory West will be racing an SR/F up Pike Peak:
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/2019-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-entry-list/
How's THAT for "Exciting??"https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/2019-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-entry-list/
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Cory West will be racing an SR/F up Pike Peak:
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/2019-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-entry-list/
How's THAT for "Exciting??"https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/2019-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-entry-list/
I wonder if H-D will try to field a LiveWire? That would make for good publicity for that bike and maybe help to boost initial sales.
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Cory West will be racing an SR/F up Pike Peak:
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/2019-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-entry-list/
How's THAT for "Exciting??"https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/2019-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-entry-list/
I wonder if H-D will try to field a LiveWire? That would make for good publicity for that bike and maybe help to boost initial sales.
I doubt it. If it is only capable of 110 miles of city riding, it'll either never make the top, or will go so slowly to conserve power that it'll be a major embarrassment for them.
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Pikes Peak is a big deal.... AND I really don't think Zero is going in to be embarrassed.... So, I'm thinking they have have jumped the shark with the new bike !!!! Hopeful....
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Cory West will be racing an SR/F up Pike Peak:
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/2019-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-entry-list/
How's THAT for "Exciting??"
This is telling that the SR/F will be a very capable motorcyle in more ways than just power and range.
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They sent another 2.25.19 teaser email with no new info in it.. the wait is killing me!
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Well at least they gave us a silhouette...more to guess about. Based on the size of the tank, looks like a bigger battery? Also more upright ergo's, no clip-ons...
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Top is SRF, bottom is 2019 S.
Tank shape is different
Tail is changed - looks like a rear tire licence plate holder
Shock is different
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Looks to me like the storage cover is shaped to support the rider's upper body.
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Here is the latest pic brightened up a bit:
(https://i.ibb.co/pWRWCvx/Capture.jpg)
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The email I received today was similar but says more info 5.2.2019. I'm hoping that's not a US date format. (I'm in the UK, so to me that's 5th Feb and not 2nd May.) To be honest it's probably a mistake and is still meant to be 25th Feb.
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No my email in the US states more details on 2.05.2019. Guess we got 2 more weeks anticipation to find out more.
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Looks like the tail has been chopped ever so slightly. Also I notice the tank doesn't seem to have a J1772 inlet, so I guess F doesn't mean "fast charge."
It also obviously doesn't mean "fully faired" either. (This was my personal hope, so shucks.)
I guess at this point it must mean "fighter"?
Edit: On second thought, those sneaky rascals could have moved a J1772 plug to underneath the seat or something. Hard to tell if the SR/F has a split seat... maybe it does, and maybe that's why. Anyway I'm not holding my breath, I think the F means fighter from this point forward.
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Yes looks like it could hold a 7.2 long brick power tank so maybe a 21.6 battery. If that break line in the tank is a lid for a storage area than I guess they listened to my suggestion about using all that empty plastic space of the current tank. Or could be just a cover for the long awaited CCS plug. :)
Only draw back I still see is the turn signal light stalks which is the same bad easy to break plastic, but hey there's always 2020. ;D
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The first thing I noticed was the relatively low bars. Doesn't look to comfortable for around-town riding to me, however. My thought is that the bike is designed as a "naked street fighter" and that is what the "F" stands for. It also looks like the rear shock (located in the picture between the "2.2" overlay) is in a new location, perhaps along the right side of the frame, as seems to be the latest style among many new ICE motorcycles.
Also, apparently Zero has done away with rear view mirrors. After all who needs to look at their shoulders? ;)
The top of the "tank" does appear to have a movable cover. So my guess is that is a cover for a CCS or L2 connection.
I like the red color. :)
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I missed the rear spring completely, yeah looks like longer travel and more to adjust I guess.
It looks like bar "level" mirrors. That black slant just above the turn signal.
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I missed the rear spring completely, yeah looks like longer travel and more to adjust I guess.
It looks like bar "level" mirrors. That black slant just above the turn signal.
That looks like the instrument display panel to me. ???
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Looks to have a livewire-style rear rain guard and fender eliminator for the plate.
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I missed the rear spring completely, yeah looks like longer travel and more to adjust I guess.
It looks like bar "level" mirrors. That black slant just above the turn signal.
That's the new HUD. Mirrors are still bug antennas..
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I think the ccs is under the back of tank cover. (Or under seat)
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I think the ccs is under the back of tank cover. (Or under seat)
What's CCS/CCM mean?
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Jarrett that is DC fast charging. A very fast charge rate till about 80% then it slows down to protect the battery from over charging.
Basically 30-40 mins to full charge.
That's the dash? Ok but whats that thing sticking out that appears to touch the front of it? Is it a really curved brake handle?
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FYI all, domingo's pic shows the mirrors. Jarrett's pic cuts them off. The mirrors look pretty unchanged. It's safe to say the "F" does NOT stand for "fancy new mirrors." ;D
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I still think "F" stand for "Future." As in, this is the beginning of Zero's future...
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Well if you get that whole tank for storage maybe it's Frunk. ;D
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It better be battery
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Sweeetttt
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Who else is hoping the acceleration specs include the phrase "warp speed"?
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RideApart has also covered this photo today with a little more intense photoshopping:
https://www.rideapart.com/articles/302173/electric-zero-srf-teaser-2/
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I bet there will be more "teasers" before February 25. ;)
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This photoshop from the rideapart article pretty cleatly shows the rear tire license plate holder. I like that.
I would prefer it be part of a full fender but I will not cry over this change.
(https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/ozWR0/s3/new-zero-sr-f-teaser.jpg)
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Apparently you need that "possum scraper" to hold the license plate in some jurisdictions, if your rear fender/license plate holder doesn't extend far enough to the rear of the bike. I was told by a CHP officer last year that California (at least) requires that an illuminated license plate must be located at the most rear point on the motorcycle. He told me that is why most after-market "fender eliminators" are not legal.
Personally, I am not a fan of the possum scraper. BMW starting installing them on their GS models about 20 years ago, supposedly due to a requirement of the German TUV to control spray from the rear tire so as to not throw debris into the air and onto following vehicles. I can't recall that they ever used that system on any of their road-only models, preferring instead to install (at one time) very long rear fenders that covered the upper portion of the rear tire, when looked at from the rear.
Now it seems like you either get a useless (for water spray protection) license plate support like is used on current Zeros or my BMW RS or, if the motorcycle designer doesn't like long extensions coming off of the rear of the bike, they install the possum scraper.
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How’d Faux News do?, lol.
https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=https://www.foxnews.com/auto/naked-zero-motorcycles-to-challenge-harley-davidson-livewire&ct=ga&cd=CAEYASoUMTY0ODM3NTc2NTk3NTkwNjU5NTIyGmQyYmQ0NjNhMjhhMDllMDg6Y29tOmVuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNH2mveNVU-LwhA81mbXdytqv47eVw (https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=https://www.foxnews.com/auto/naked-zero-motorcycles-to-challenge-harley-davidson-livewire&ct=ga&cd=CAEYASoUMTY0ODM3NTc2NTk3NTkwNjU5NTIyGmQyYmQ0NjNhMjhhMDllMDg6Y29tOmVuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNH2mveNVU-LwhA81mbXdytqv47eVw)
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Funny how they have Zero "challenging" Harley, when Zero's been in the space over a decade and Harley's still just talking about it.
Other than that, it's surprisingly correct and informative for a Faux News article.
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Funny how they have Zero "challenging" Harley, when Zero's been in the space over a decade and Harley's still just talking about it.
Other than that, it's surprisingly correct and informative for a Faux News article.
^Agreed, on *both* points.
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Funny how they have Zero "challenging" Harley, when Zero's been in the space over a decade and Harley's still just talking about it.
Other than that, it's surprisingly correct and informative for a Faux News article.
Well, you know, they try to bolster their credibility on some things so people will take their propaganda as factual.
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Can the technical data and the price really be taken seriously?
Zero can't possibly earn money with the SR/F with the combination.
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Can the technical data and the price really be taken seriously?
Zero can't possibly earn money with the SR/F with the combination.
It seems to me that Harley's trying to enter the market space from the top, whereas Zero is using this as an opportunity to expand their product offering upwards into the "premium" market.
Which seems like a great move by Zero, a horrible one for Harley.
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Does anyone else think its a wasted opportunity to not include a fairing? I personally like the look of sports fairing for design, but I'm assuming the battery will be bigger, why not get even more range with a fairing.
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Does anyone else think its a wasted opportunity to not include a fairing? I personally like the look of sports fairing for design, but I'm assuming the battery will be bigger, why not get even more range with a fairing.
And why not sell toothpaste with a model that has a great personality? Because that doesn't sell toothpaste.
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Doug that's funny.
David I do agree with you though and I wonder at this point what the real issue might be.
Do they think the battery needs the open air flow for cooling?
Is it the fact that marketing shows a drop in sport bike sales and an increase in naked and DS sales industry wide?
I would like to see some mounting points on the frame as an option for after market but we'll see.
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Faired bikes are selling less than naked and ds, Zero needs every sale possible so going after a shrinking market with a flagship bike makes zero sense.
And I don't think the opportunity is wasted. This is a new platform flagship. Go for naked, it's popular.
Then for 2020 models they can expand that platform to both update the existing ds and s lines and introduce a proper supersport. This is just one bike. 1
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I have always suspected that Zero likely doesn't want to spend the money to design, test and manufacture a fairing. Like caza says, faired motorcycles are not a hot seller right now. While long-distance riders would likely appreciate such a fairing, I don't think that is market that Zero is aiming for. Right now I think their goal is to produce useful commuter, naked, and ADV motorcycles. They watch every penny at the company and likely believe that the cost of a new fairing, and needing to raise the price according, just would not "pencil out" for what would likely be a small number of sales. "Street Fighters" are a relatively hot item right now and that is what I believe Zero is marketing with the SR/F.
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Hollywood Electrics already took the time and investment to make a decent frame-mounted fairing for the bigger Zeros (meaning those NOT built on the FX platform). All Zero would have to do is license them from Harlan and his people and resell them. Win-win for BOTH companies.
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Hollywood Electrics already took the time and investment to make a decent frame-mounted fairing for the bigger Zeros (meaning those NOT built on the FX platform). All Zero would have to do is license them from Harlan and his people and resell them. Win-win for BOTH companies.
A fairing for me is the bike is completely in 'plastic' (very low wind resistance. Don't think HE offers this or I missed something.
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Hollywood Electrics already took the time and investment to make a decent frame-mounted fairing for the bigger Zeros (meaning those NOT built on the FX platform). All Zero would have to do is license them from Harlan and his people and resell them. Win-win for BOTH companies.
A fairing for me is the bike is completely in 'plastic' (very low wind resistance. Don't think HE offers this or I missed something.
Your legs are still in the open, but easy enough to tuck into the bike and out of the majority of the airflow. The HE fairing takes care of your upper body where the majority of the wind resistance is created. Both Electric Terry and Brian T. Rice have posted plenty of photos of Zeros equipped with the HE fairing. Think "BMW RS" rather than GoldWing:
https://hollywoodelectrics.com/products/zero-fairing-kit?variant=12817024516195
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Does anyone know if San Jose BMW is planning to hold any special event for the Feb. 25 unveiling? There is nothing on their calendar or newsletter at the moment. But if so, we should organize a group meetup for that.
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Hollywood Electrics already took the time and investment to make a decent frame-mounted fairing for the bigger Zeros (meaning those NOT built on the FX platform). All Zero would have to do is license them from Harlan and his people and resell them. Win-win for BOTH companies.
A fairing for me is the bike is completely in 'plastic' (very low wind resistance. Don't think HE offers this or I missed something.
Your legs are still in the open, but easy enough to tuck into the bike and out of the majority of the airflow. The HE fairing takes care of your upper body where the majority of the wind resistance is created. Both Electric Terry and Brian T. Rice have posted plenty of photos of Zeros equipped with the HE fairing. Think "BMW RS" rather than GoldWing:
https://hollywoodelectrics.com/products/zero-fairing-kit?variant=12817024516195
Yes, the first thing I thought: he, a Yamaha XJ diversion from the 90's! Not bad, but also not worth the extra money it is for me with already a screen.
8)
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Incidentally, in his testing, I believe ElectricTerry reported at 15% or BETTER improvement in range using the HE fairing... That's almost the same as adding the power tank for half the price.
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Incidentally, in his testing, I believe ElectricTerry reported at 15% or BETTER improvement in range using the HE fairing... That's almost the same as adding the power tank for half the price.
There is a difference, power tank will increase your range at any speed.
The 15-20% increased range from the fairing will only be above a x-speed.
Don't get me wrong, I do like the fairing and I would buy the fairing, but not for so much money.
If it was like €500 I would do it without thinking twice.
But now I would rather spend money on 1 extra Diginow.
8)
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Fairings accomplish what a charger or battery cannot: reduction of power consumption and heat production for a given airspeed in a given environment.
I have all 3: HE fairing, 5 DigiNow units, and a Power Tank on my 2016 DSR. Having all three makes a big difference in terms of redundant factors in keeping a trip from getting cut short by factors like:
- misbehaving charging system.
- misbehaving Power Tank.
- unexpected increase in drag or thermal load on the battery by headwinds, low temperatures, etc.
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Does the HE fairing really make that big of a difference compared to say, the zero commuter windscreen?
I definitely would like one but I'm with Dennis in that the price is a bit too much to justify. $1300 and I still would have to paint it? Cheaper than a powertank but still a very expensive investment.
Having all 3 would be great of course, but part of the appeal of electric bikes is low running costs and overall good economics and that kinda goes away if you're spending $1300 on a fairing, $3000 on a PT, and another $3500 on a diginow kit. That's $7800 in upgrades, a budget that could also afford a very nice second bike! And it STILL won't be as good for long distances as an ICE bike. To me that's just diminishing returns.
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+1, I couldn't agree more. The Zero's are designed to be commuter bikes and that is where they excel. If you want to turn it into a long distance tourer, you can, but it will really cost you and it still won't be as good as a larger cruiser bike that is designed for that purpose. I guess I just don't quite get why some people are willing to spend so much time and money trying to turn their Zero into something it isn't.
Regarding HE's fairing, I can't see why anyone would spend that kind of money when there so many other good windscreen choices out there for a fraction of the cost.
Call me cheap I guess.
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Biggest reason for me is that the other WINDSHIELDS (and NOBODY that I'm aware of makes a FAIRING for Zero besides Hollywood Electric) look like CRAP. The other windshields are also generic items with the hardware to mount them on a Zero, whereas the HE fairing was built SPECIFICALLY for the Zero. It was also tested extensively before being put on the market.
As for why they're so expensive: Do you think all of that work was done for FREE??? It would be different if Zero sold tens of thousands of bikes a year; they could make up the development costs in volume but sadly that is not the case.
That's why I said Zero's best solution is rather than spend the time and money developing a fairing on their own, they should simply license the one HE already created. That would bring the costs down somewhat, and both companies could profit.
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JamieC
That's why I said Zero's best solution is rather than spend the time and money developing a fairing on their own, they should simply license the one HE already created. That would bring the costs down somewhat, and both companies could profit.
[/quote]
Agreed and the same thing with Diggi chargers replacing the Greenwatt chargers they use now.
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The Hollywood Electrics fairing is better than every windscreen I've tried by far, and I've been at this since late 2015.
Mainly, it creates a cockpit structure which pushes the dash and headlamp forward a few inches, and fixes the headlamp to the frame. It then places a cowl around all of that with an integrated windscreen.
So, as a result, a single aerodynamic surface from the headlamp backwards is in front of the rider and sleeker than any handlebar-mounted windscreen can be. The angles involved are lower because the surface starts much further ahead of the rider.
Regarding the paint issue, I'd infer that if they aren't offering the paint option, it's because they can't get a quality paint match against Zero's plastics.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190129/e682ac6dbb16013bf62b1a4abbc8af36.jpg)
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To be clear, they do offer a paint option, but it is more expensive and it's only available for the current model years paint. (You can have it in any color as long as it's black)
Again, I don't doubt the HE fairing is better, it's obviously a well through out aerodynamic solution and yes that takes time and money to develop.
What I'm saying is that $1400 is a lot of money for a marginal range difference, and for myself I can't justify it. Especially since I already have a zero windscreen. If you have the money to throw at this kind of stuff that's awesome, but for me it defeats the purpose of an economic commuter.
Aesthetics is an interesting point. I do think the fairing looks good, but it also is at odds with other accessories. For instance, the HE fairing would look really odd with handguards, while the zero windshield does not.
I do think it would be smart for Zero to license the HD fairing, but also it would just end up being more expensive for the end user if now two companies need to profit from it.
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Looks a bit weird having HE fairing, an extra shield on top of it and disc wheels and..... 2 large blocks superchargers on both sides wasting the gain gained...
Are you going to adapt this charging solution?
Maybe behind the legs using footpeg holes for mounting?
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Looks a bit weird having HE fairing, an extra shield on top of it and disc wheels and..... 2 large blocks superchargers on both sides wasting the gain gained...
Are you going to adapt this charging solution?
Maybe behind the legs using footpeg holes for mounting?
Regarding drag, my design is intended to have a dustbin fairing wrapping it entirely, which is delayed by fabrication complications and my lack of a personal budget for this effort right now. I don't find that range is impacted much - air in that area has to travel past my legs, anyway, so the frontal area is similar.
I no longer want to move the chargers to the rear, because luggage back there is already enough of a concern in terms of handling. Chargers are denser than clothing, groceries, etc. There's also a concern about protecting the cabling from moisture and debris flying off the rear tire.
I'm currently testing a better mount for these "boxer" chargers in the same place that I might offer for a reasonable cost (especially since manufacturing brackets in bulk is way cheaper than one-off prototypes, I already have a set of five pairs of my test articles).
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BrianTRice (and ElectricTerry) are TRUE enthusiasts. If I'm faced with a longer ride, I just leave my Zero in the garage and take my K1200LT. :)
Still, the Zero is good for well over 80% of my riding so I get to save the LT for the real touring. Since it has over 214,000 miles on it already, I figure the less I use it, the longer I'll have it. None of the new touring bikes do anything for me. The new Wing comes close, but Honda made the stupid decision to reduce the locking luggage capacity to "useless for more than a weekend getaway" size.
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BrianTRice (and ElectricTerry) are TRUE enthusiasts. If I'm faced with a longer ride, I just leave my Zero in the garage and take my K1200LT. :)
Still, the Zero is good for well over 80% of my riding so I get to save the LT for the real touring. Since it has over 214,000 miles on it already, I figure the less I use it, the longer I'll have it. None of the new touring bikes do anything for me. The new Wing comes close, but Honda made the stupid decision to reduce the locking luggage capacity to "useless for more than a weekend getaway" size.
I am glad you said this because I am faced with a similar choice. My current ICE ride is set up as a Tourer. I am very comfortable with it on the long trips but it is pretty big to ride around on short jumps. It is also almost 15 years old but the mileage is still low. Being it was passed on to me, I would not like to give it up. I was originally looking at the new Tour Bikes but the one I liked was the Yamaha Star bikes that weigh over 900lbs. Little too much of a bike. I plan to keep my Boulevard so I was looking for something "different". That is how I found my way to Zero and electric bikes. I thought this bike would be perfect for the short jumps around my area which is about 75% of my riding (hence the low mileage on my current bike). I was almost ready to pull the plug and purchase until I saw the teaser on the SR/F. As you can imagine I am cautiously excited to see what they are going to offer (I was really disappointed with HD Livewire announcement) and will probably know what I am getting by this riding season. Hopefully it is one of the Zeros.
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My guess is that the SR/F was specifically developed by Zero to take on the LiveWire. After all they have had about 5 years advanced notice of the Wire's introduction. It will likely have better performance and range, but not as good after-sales support by the factory. ::) My other guess is that the price will be around $20K, thereby undercutting H-D by a good margin. ;)
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I hope your right Richard, I'm leaning more to the 24k side depending what all is there. Bigger battery and DC charging with a little R&D cost thrown in seem like about the right price.
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At first I was a little worried that Zero may say we have our fully loaded SR at 18K and the Livewire is $30K, lets price the SR/F at $25K. I mean they can use the rational you said, better specs at $5K less than the Livewire. What I think may keep it in check is the tease by Lightiing for a bike starting at $13K. I think everyone knows that is the starting price and the specs that Lightning is teasing will be a lot higher but Zero shows its hand first. If they try to max the pricing at $25K, people are going to wait and see what Lightning has to offer. If Lightning comes in with a SR/F spec bike at $5K less, Zero may have another limited release on their hands. Hey I think a lot of people like myself was waiting for the Livewire and was disappointed and now are waiting for the SR/F. I am hoping that I won't be disappointed and will be waiting on Lightning. I am a little concerned about Zero's limited dealer network. I am VERY concerned about Lightning's lack of network. Either way it seems like an exciting time for electric bikes.
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I figure that $25K may be a bit much for Zero's market. That puts them in Energica territory and doubt that the SR/F is going to look nearly as nice, based upon the teaser picture.
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At first I was a little worried that Zero may say we have our fully loaded SR at 18K and the Livewire is $30K, lets price the SR/F at $25K. I mean they can use the rational you said, better specs at $5K less than the Livewire. What I think may keep it in check is the tease by Lightiing for a bike starting at $13K. I think everyone knows that is the starting price and the specs that Lightning is teasing will be a lot higher but Zero shows its hand first. If they try to max the pricing at $25K, people are going to wait and see what Lightning has to offer. If Lightning comes in with a SR/F spec bike at $5K less, Zero may have another limited release on their hands. Hey I think a lot of people like myself was waiting for the Livewire and was disappointed and now are waiting for the SR/F. I am hoping that I won't be disappointed and will be waiting on Lightning. I am a little concerned about Zero's limited dealer network. I am VERY concerned about Lightning's lack of network. Either way it seems like an exciting time for electric bikes.
What are you hoping that the bike will be? The current SR is already an excellent bike. Is there something you wish it had, or you just don't want to buy it only to have something new come out soon after?
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What are you hoping that the bike will be? The current SR is already an excellent bike. Is there something you wish it had, or you just don't want to buy it only to have something new come out soon after?
I'd wait to see if I wanted to pay more for the /F.
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What are you hoping that the bike will be? The current SR is already an excellent bike. Is there something you wish it had, or you just don't want to buy it only to have something new come out soon after?
Well more power and more range is always a plus. Maybe a little higher end electronic cluster is nice. Maybe an standard level 2 and/or DC charging capability is useful. The two things I am hoping most for is traction control and a better seat. TBH I am a little older than the typical electric motorcycle demographic and I found the current seat not acceptable, But then again even on my ICE bike, I needed to put a expensive aftermarket seat. So far I am at least hopeful by the picture that the seat may be improved. Hey who knows. If the improvements are not my thing and the price is higher, i may just get the SR with the charge tank. I really liked it. I just figured being i am so close to release of the SR/F, it is a no brainer to wait and see what is offers.
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Well luckily the Zero is released in Feb and the Lightning in March and I doubt you'll be able to get your hands on one before May at the very earliest.
Lightning is playing Tesla's game with the Model 3. Saying they will offer a 35k Model 3 but all you can really get is the 50k one.
Lightning says the carbon edition with it's 10k deposit will be all you can order in the beginning. How long that is I don't know. I doubt that a 12k Lightning ever sees the road.
I could be wrong but from the website details it sure sounds that way.
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What are you hoping that the bike will be? The current SR is already an excellent bike. Is there something you wish it had, or you just don't want to buy it only to have something new come out soon after?
Well more power and more range is always a plus. Maybe a little higher end electronic cluster is nice. Maybe an standard level 2 and/or DC charging capability is useful. The two things I am hoping most for is traction control and a better seat. TBH I am a little older than the typical electric motorcycle demographic and I found the current seat not acceptable, But then again even on my ICE bike, I needed to put a expensive aftermarket seat. So far I am at least hopeful by the picture that the seat may be improved. Hey who knows. If the improvements are not my thing and the price is higher, i may just get the SR with the charge tank. I really liked it. I just figured being i am so close to release of the SR/F, it is a no brainer to wait and see what is offers.
You're in luck with the traction control. Even if it doesn't come with a new seat, you can get a custom one for not that much compared to the price premium for the SR/F, I'm sure. All that remains are details like exactly how much more power, what else you'll get, and the cost for the whole package.
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It seems to me from reading the various forums for a while now there are essentially 2 types of people who are anxiously awaiting new models to be released from the manufacturers. The first one being a rider who uses the bike for a short daily commute. They rather sacrifice some of the specs and get the companies to release lower priced models. I can see this and I think if Zeros get more popular where they can start mass producing them, you will see more models between $5K-$10K. Then there is those that want a bike that has higher specifications and more of the modern technology that is becoming standard on ICE bikes. They are willing to pay more as long as it doesn’t get crazy (aka Livewire). From the teasers it seems the SR/F may fall into the later class. At least that is what I am personally hoping for.
Then I think you have a small subclass that want more range, more power, more technology but with a lower price. I think this is an unreasonable expectation until battery prices drop drastically or battery technology changes. Electric bikes will also need to become more mainstream so manufacturers can start mass producing in larger scale and see cost reductions that come with it.
Either way I think that electric bikes are the future and will only get better and cheaper. I believe we are still at the early adopter phase and that comes with a price and some sacrifices.
Now to get through the long weekend waiting for more SR/F details to be released on Tuesday.
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Good points GaryArt1.
There is also a which comes first the chicken or the egg issue with the maintenance side. Will they start teaching electric repair to new guys or will they wait till there is a few hundred thousand on the road before hand. Of course more people would buy them more if they could get them fixed close by.
This is really a big issue in the second hand market for now I think people are worried a used bike can't get worked on if they're not near a dealer.
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The second SR/F article by Jensen Beeler @ Rubber & Asphalt is rather negative on Zero in general:
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/zero-sr-f-electric-sport-bike-leak/
While claiming some secret source, it appears to me as highly speculative and factually incorrect.
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I did not think it was negative at all. Just hope they are not in to deep with credit.
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Good points GaryArt1.
There is also a which comes first the chicken or the egg issue with the maintenance side. Will they start teaching electric repair to new guys or will they wait till there is a few hundred thousand on the road before hand. Of course more people would buy them more if they could get them fixed close by.
This is really a big issue in the second hand market for now I think people are worried a used bike can't get worked on if they're not near a dealer.
I think multibrand dealers are the answer.
In the Netherlands Motoport is big and they have learned their maintenance crew to work on Zero's.
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Good points GaryArt1.
There is also a which comes first the chicken or the egg issue with the maintenance side. Will they start teaching electric repair to new guys or will they wait till there is a few hundred thousand on the road before hand. Of course more people would buy them more if they could get them fixed close by.
This is really a big issue in the second hand market for now I think people are worried a used bike can't get worked on if they're not near a dealer.
I think multibrand dealers are the answer.
In the Netherlands Motoport is big and they have learned their maintenance crew to work on Zero's.
In my 56 years of buying motorcycles, my experience is that large multi-brand dealers in the U.S. have never fared well or stayed in business very long. I think this is partly because of the conflicting requirements of each brand's franchise agreements, partly because they financially overextend themselves, partly because their staff typically doesn't get paid very much and tend to come and go, partly because the motorcycle selling business goes up and down with the local economy, partly because these dealerships tend to try to play the game of Monopoly and buy several other shops in the area in order to control the market (thereby financially overextending themselves), partly because - well you get the idea. ;) These big shops rarely last for very long. :(
And the few that have tried to pair with an existing car dealership, such as BMW, have really short lives. In the U.S. motorcycle and car salesmen and their customers just don't get along. ???
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So I agree that multi-brand dealers are not ideal. If given the option, I prefer to purchase from a dealer who does just one brand. Who knows the bike better, who would have a better selection, who would have more factory support and who would be best trained to service the bike. I think without doubt it is the one brand dealer. Saying that, I think there are two reasons that multi-brand dealers are a necessary evil.
1. I like many of you research the hell out of a bike before making a purchase. We are here on the forums. We read the reviews (actually these days more watch them on you tube). We visit multiple dealers and test ride many bikes. When we are ready to purchase, we did our work and know what we want. It seems some of the new riders (not all) want to shop like they do in a department store. They want to go in see all the selections and types of bikes, test ride a few and make a purchase. No one has time for all the research these days and there is little brand loyalty.
2. In the case of a brand such as Zero. A one brand Zero dealership would not make it anywhere in the US other than possible California. One of the Zero dealers near me who has been selling Zeros for a few years now told me they sold a little less than 50 of them. This is not enough to keep the lights on in NY. They have to have more than Zero bikes to sell at least until electric bikes become the norm and Zero becomes a major player.
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GaryArt1 sounds like you've been around the block a few times and use your head for more than a place to put your helmet. ;)
The flip side though is when you put a 100MPH 17k Zero next to a 150MPH 9k naked bike on the showroom floor it's a harder sale.
I had thought of putting them in high end bicycle shops but then they aren't set up for repairs on motorcycles.
Good old Hollywood Electrics is the only dealer I know of who has Zero as their bread and butter main brand. If I weren't on the east coast they would get all my business.
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GaryArt1 sounds like you've been around the block a few times and use your head for more than a place to put your helmet. ;)
The flip side though is when you put a 100MPH 17k Zero next to a 150MPH 9k naked bike on the showroom floor it's a harder sale.
I had thought of putting them in high end bicycle shops but then they aren't set up for repairs on motorcycles.
Good old Hollywood Electrics is the only dealer I know of who has Zero as their bread and butter main brand. If I weren't on the east coast they would get all my business.
NEW2elec, thanks for the compliment and you hit the nail on the head. In NY, we have 2 Zero dealerships, both multi-brands, both very different. The first one is a high end dealership that carries mostly Ducatis BMWs and other high end bikes. When you walk into the showroom you are overwhelmed with the shiny high end super bikes. They have two Zeros and at least one is last year's model. They were even hard to find. Would they sell me one, yes. Would they rather spend their time selling one of the other bikes, definitely. Kind of reminds me of when I walked into a RV dealership with all the motor homes and asked about buying a Pop up camper. Compound this with another forum member telling me this dealership has had some issues with poor support from Zero and you have a a poor place for Zero. Now the other Zero dealership is about double the distance from me. They are a multi-sport dealership dedicated to electric products. So they have electric scooters, skateboards and likewise. Their top product is the zero motorcycles and they have about 15 bikes of every model. They are committed to electric sports and Zero. Though this is not a traditional motorcycle dealer this is a dealership that really wants to promote electric bikes. Zero is the top of the line product These guys are extremely knowledgable on Zeros and committed to the company. They even helped represent Zero in the NY motorcycle show and are excited about flying out to Zero this month for the "big reveal". So though this is a "multi-brand" dealership and double the distance from me as the other dealer, this is where I am considering buying my bike. Would I rather it be a sole Zero dealership, yes but this is the closest we will get here until Zero becomes as common as Honda, Harley, Yamaha, etc.
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Gary is referring to the dealer I patronize. When I bought my 2018, they warned me that they may not be selling the brand much longer because of the poor support they were getting from Zero. They take good care of my K1200LT so I wanted to buy it from them anyway. They even looked up Filipacchi Motorsports for me (the other dealer Gary mentioned) to assure me there would be someone to support me should they drop the brand.
They were going to take a "wait and see" attitude. They're still listed as a dealership on Zero's website so I'm good for now. They're roughly 30 miles from my house... well within the range of my S on a full charge (especially when you take into consideration how SLOW you have to ride through New York City traffic).
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So new images from zero's instagram it looks like the battery is just 14.4kwh. I was expecting a bigger battery, if it isnt im assuming this means performance is going to get a significant boost. the motor has 75-10 written on it, anyone know what this means?
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This is what you expect from a dealer. You should open a topic "Great dealers i would recommend to my best friends to buy a Zero from"
Gary is referring to the dealer I patronize. When I bought my 2018, they warned me that they may not be selling the brand much longer because of the poor support they were getting from Zero. They take good care of my K1200LT so I wanted to buy it from them anyway. They even looked up Filipacchi Motorsports for me (the other dealer Gary mentioned) to assure me there would be someone to support me should they drop the brand.
They were going to take a "wait and see" attitude. They're still listed as a dealership on Zero's website so I'm good for now. They're roughly 30 miles from my house... well within the range of my S on a full charge (especially when you take into consideration how SLOW you have to ride through New York City traffic).
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New teaser dropped. Looks like the same 14.4 kWh battery, but a brand new motor. Still has J-Juan brakes, but these are radially mounted, and there are TWO of them. Should satisfy those who've complained about Zero's braking capabilities.
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WTF Zero?? An update email with ZERO new info in it??? Just a silly cropped picture..
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WTF Zero?? An update email with ZERO new info in it??? Just a silly cropped picture..
Yeah, the last email I got from them said " more details" on 2/5. This is a very disappointing marketing tease without any details.
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Funny typo from Asphalt&Rubber:
"If we just extrapolate numbers here – which lets preface as not exactly a great method to deduce performance figures – you would expect the Z-Force 75-10 to make 1000hp, which is certainly on the peppy side of the motorcycle equation." https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/zero-motorcycles-sr-f-teaser-3/
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WTF Zero?? An update email with ZERO new info in it??? Just a silly cropped picture..
Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOt8RhfNF18
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What are the shiny tubes on the battery? Designer trim or liquid cooling?
^ Nevermind. On a larger screen it's apparent the shiny parts are some of the convection cooling fins.
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I mean I think the biggest news here is that it looks like the SR/F has a trellis frame.
New motor, new battery. Dual front disk.
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Yeah the email update was horrible. Just one picture and no new description, but the trellis frame does look interesting. Not sure why they didn't at least include a link to the video.
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The thing most obvious to me was the "75-10" badge on the motor. Apparently no motor upgrades. If there are power/torque upgrades, it must just be driven by the battery and/or controller.
Is that front suspension an anti-dive? Some sort of active suspension? Looks intriguing anyhow.
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I saw a 14.4 badge at the :01 mark so same battery. I guess it has dual rotors hard to tell. The cooling fins for the motor appear to be going the length of the bike and not across it so some better motor cooling.
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I saw a 14.4 badge at the :01 mark so same battery. I guess it has dual rotors hard to tell. The cooling fins for the motor appear to be going the length of the bike and not across it so some better motor cooling.
Same battery capacity, anyhow. But better cooling for both the battery and the motor may imply a higher-current controller, so they may be pulling more torque out of the motor that way. But yeah, of course a battery capacity upgrade is always welcome, especially since they were apparently making a new frame anyhow. A wider battery could be accommodated quite easily I'd think.
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Doug where do you see anything with active suspension? I see the J Juan brake line and the red mounting point for the front fender.
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Just seems like extra hardware behind/around the brake caliper. I could be very wrong. I haven't even seen the newer bikes, maybe that's standard now.
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Hey again at the :01 mark at the far left it looks like those round lens for extra light on the forks.
Let me know when you find Waldo.
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The thing most obvious to me was the "75-10" badge on the motor. Apparently no motor upgrades. If there are power/torque upgrades, it must just be driven by the battery and/or controller.
Is that front suspension an anti-dive? Some sort of active suspension? Looks intriguing anyhow.
What does 75-10 mean to you? If the current SR has a 75-7 motor, isn't this an upgrade?
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Ahhh your right domingo3.
I forgot what the current motor was numbered but your right new more powerful motor.
So 75-5 was 81 ft-lbs of torque and the 75-7 116 ft=lbs of torque. Almost 40 more ft-lbs of torque.
Could 75-10 be over 160 ft-lbs? :)
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I made the same oopsie. (I really wish Zero had a better website! Too much salesmanship, not enough technical information. They talk about the Z-force drivetrain all over the place but I still can't find mention of the 75-7 motor on their website.)
So what do the dash numbers mean? It seems like the 75-7 puts out 70 horsepower, is that what it means? So can we assume 100 horsepower for the new motor?
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Just seems like extra hardware behind/around the brake caliper. I could be very wrong. I haven't even seen the newer bikes, maybe that's standard now.
I guess that's for the ABS.
Can't sell motorcycles without it in Europe. ::)
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Yeah it's in the "specs" section.
You could be on to something there, the 75-5 was 54hp and the 75-7 was 70hp so seems likely 100hp
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Then it would be a 75KW motor.
75000w : 96V =~ 780A
about 5C on the pack
Would that be within the spec of the DSR controller?
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Not sure about the rest of you, but I sure am teaser fatigued.
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Not me. I'm having fun balancing my wildest fantasies against economic and technological realties.
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The thing most obvious to me was the "75-10" badge on the motor. Apparently no motor upgrades. If there are power/torque upgrades, it must just be driven by the battery and/or controller.
The current SR motor is the 75-7R, so the /F motor must be 30% better ;)
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With what seems to be the same battery I'd say same voltage so likely no DC fast charging.
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This is entertaining for me. I know I'm not going to buy one, but I hope it's great.
What's the function of the silver u-shaped bars? Probably something obvious, but it's got to be something more than just holding in the battery and looking pretty, right?
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I don't know what those U shaped things are but someone will chrome them straightaway. Sad to see the robot welded tube frame similar to some of the KTMs. I'm sure it's strong and all but I'll take an alloy frame with rows of coins welds over that anyday!
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Not me. I'm having fun balancing my wildest fantasies against economic and technological realties.
Ditto....
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I don't know what those U shaped things are but someone will chrome them straightaway. Sad to see the robot welded tube frame similar to some of the KTMs. I'm sure it's strong and all but I'll take an alloy frame with rows of coins welds over that anyday!
There is a reason that KTM and Ducati use trellis frames.... They are extremely strong, light and relatively economical.... Each their own.... BUT, I think that Zero might actually be on the right path to pull dollars from my hand !!!! I really like what I see so far.... Hopeful....
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With what seems to be the same battery I'd say same voltage so likely no DC fast charging.
With the larger motor and maybe the lure of increased efficiency, doubling the voltage by stacking the batteries might be part of the design.
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With the larger motor and maybe the lure of increased efficiency, doubling the voltage by stacking the batteries might be part of the design.
I'd be surprised. The way they've talked about the superior safety of the lower-voltage systems in the past, it would be quite a turnabout for a significant boost to the voltage.
One of my Physics professors back in college told me the reason the US uses 110VAC for domestic power is that it's "usually not quite lethal". I guess that is better than "usually quite lethal".
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So I know we are all trying to figure out the 75-10 motor. I know Zeros currently use 75-7. I offer this explanation form RideApart:
"The 7 stands for the size of the motor's rotor (7 cm = 2.76 inches); it is the biggest unit Zero currently offers. Logically, the 10 suggests the new motor is getting a bigger rotor—close to 50-percent bigger—which in turn means the output numbers will get a significant boost."
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I don't know what you guys expected, this teaser gave us more information than either of the previous 2 teaser images, we already know we'll get all the real details on the 25th. Even so, we got a lot of information from one little image and video than previous teases. Trellis frame, dual from disks, new motor, better cooling, same KWH. That's a lot more meaningful info than "LED Headlight"
I still think you guys are overlooking the trellis frame. That's going to add huge weight savings. There's a reason why every motogp bike has a trellis frame. They're extremely strong and light. Compared to the solid steel frame on the regular SR models, it's going to be a big difference. What will be interesting is if the frame is aluminum or steel.
14.4kwh doesn't mean it's the same battery, it means its the same capacity. The outside shape still tell us it's a different design. Likely a higher voltage to support fast charging. Also likely that it has much better cooling. The fact that they've talked about lower voltage being safer in the past doesn't mean they won't go high voltage now. The market wants DC charging, and this is how you do it. They've also had a decade to think about possible safety solutions for a higher voltage system.
It's likely that the same capacity battery with a lighter frame and other improvements will get significantly better range than the current SR model.
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U shapes are bolting points for what looks like a new 2 part long brick battery with what looks like a chiller plate/ frame mounting point in between them. Very nice!
Same voltage or higher isn't known but "seems" unlikely to be different being the exact same capacity IMO.
We'll see.
But sorry Caza the frame has always been aluminum not steel and not very heavy but trellis will give them more flexibility for sizes of batteries and other components in the future so that's cool too.
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Seems like my predictions are right 8)
Zero doesn't come with a 20kWh battery but with a horizontal ventilation duct.
https://www.1000ps.at/motorrad-haendler-news-detail-176627-chilli-x-news-zero-motorcycles-sr-f-news
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Since every other new ebike has fast charging it would be stoopid for Zero not to - so that should be a given. The 75-10 motor would probably indicate roughly a 100hp motor. My energica has 109hp 133lb ft so I would guess it would be very similar here. With the Lightning Strike coming out now as well with 150mph, 150 miles and CCS I would imagine this will be close to that. I predict 150 mile range and CCS for this. Dont expect the trellis to make it "lighter" - the main weight issue is the battery so 475lbs or 510lbs doesn't really mean much.
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Someone 'shopped this image together in the FB group. Thought I'd share here!
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Just because it has a 14.4 battery, does not mean it can’t have a 7.2 or another 14.4 also.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190206/1cc8e41c4ee54627c37ce876f3e984ce.jpg) All I’m saying is trellis frame and cooling fins. DOPE!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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U shapes are bolting points for what looks like a new 2 part long brick battery with what looks like a chiller plate/ frame mounting point in between them. Very nice!
Same voltage or higher isn't known but "seems" unlikely to be different being the exact same capacity IMO.
We'll see.
But sorry Caza the frame has always been aluminum not steel and not very heavy but trellis will give them more flexibility for sizes of batteries and other components in the future so that's cool too.
The trellis frame illustrated is in all probability chrome-molly.... The welds definitely say steel.... An Aluminum frame in the diameter tubing shown would be an absolute noodle....
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No Caza was saying the current SR frame was solid steel. It's not.
I can't say if the tube frame is alloy or pure steel. I like it though.
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Yup for some reason I thought the old frame was steal, thanks for the correction my mistake.
I'm still a fan of the trellis frame but it's not going to be a huge weight savings.
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My prediction is based on what I would do if Zero were my company (and I want to make a profit).
Keeping with the company motto "sophisticated simplicity", I would make a more powerful motor by making the rotor wider (30% wider to go from 70 hp to 100 hp) that way all motor extrusions stay the same. But with a wider motor, I would need a new (wider) frame (which is what we see). I would need a bigger controller but still air cooled if possible, and use the same battery modules (so same voltage) but liquid cooled (to cope with the power draw and fast charging). I would put the charger on top of the battery instead of underneath so I can have fan forced air cooling (keeping it away from the crud down low). The liquid cooled battery would be thermosiphon through a radiator on the front of the pack. It would need a stronger belt or a chain. A belt like a Harley would be nice (never needs changing for the life of the bike). Maybe traction control, reverse and more user configurations via software.
This would give a more powerful and faster bike but with minimal development of new parts.
Lets see how close I am on the 25th.
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Well grmarks I'll take that bet :)
This is good natured ribbing since this whole thing has me in a good mood.
The cooling fins on the side of the battery tells me no liquid cooling.
The motor cooling fins run the length of the bike not across so new motor design.
The charger being on top sounds likely and fans would be nice (a brand change would nicer cough Diginow cough)
I'll say no radiator since I say air cooled.
I doubt DC fast charging unless the problem with those stations not dropping down to Zero's voltage (116V) has been changed as I believe Zero kept it's old voltage.
There is a punch line of "so it lasts 10k miles" to your belt statement about the Harley belt (again all in fun).
All in all it's a very nice upgrade and it may have a few more surprises in store the only kicker could be price.
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About the belt:
Buell used a Goodyear belt (as opposed to the Gates belts used by Harley Davidson) on their constant-tension designed bikes (the XB series and the 1125R series). Those belts were designed to last the lifetime of the bike, and in fact there was no way to adjust their tension; it was set at the factory and that was it.
The Zeros also have a constant-tension belt (the drive pulley is exactly in line with the swingarm pivot, so the tension on the belt is constant no matter the suspension movement). That being the case, I don't understand why they should need to be adjusted and why there is an adjustment setting on the swingarm at all. Also, since the belts on an electric motor aren't subject to the "shocks" absorbed by the belt of a big, thumping V-Twin, why they should ever need replacement unless they've been damaged in some way.
And going with that last item: WHY IN HELL ISN'T there better protection for the belt? Upper AND lower belt guards??
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The cooling fins on the side of the battery tells me no liquid cooling.
The motor cooling fins run the length of the bike not across so new motor design.
The charger being on top sounds likely and fans would be nice (a brand change would nicer cough Diginow cough)
I'll say no radiator since I say air cooled.
I doubt DC fast charging unless the problem with those stations not dropping down to Zero's voltage (116V) has been changed as I believe Zero kept it's old voltage.
There is a punch line of "so it lasts 10k miles" to your belt statement about the Harley belt (again all in fun).
All in all it's a very nice upgrade and it may have a few more surprises in store the only kicker could be price.
I agree with everything, including the good mood. I've got 45,000 miles on my 2014 SR, but I may just have to cough up some shekels soon. This bike looks GOOD.
I suppose the only thing I'd add is that it does look to me like there's an access panel next to the rider's belly; I'd assume that's to cover up charging port(s). I'm going to go out on a limb and say they're including 6kW J1772 charging, but still able to charge at ~1.2kW off of 115VAC. With DC charging it would pretty much be my dream bike, but I agree we'll probably have to wait a little while longer for that. Pity if NEW2elec and I are correct about that.
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With the announcement of a battery size of 14.4 with a larger diameter motor, the CCS standard probably died. ::)
A bigger motor and a higher voltage don't make sense. :'(
200 Volt is needed to charge safely.
AAB charging stations support 50-500 Volt but the debacle knows zero from CHAdeMO !
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Hooking up in series instead of parallel is easy.
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The cooling fins on the side of the battery tells me no liquid cooling.
The motor cooling fins run the length of the bike not across so new motor design.
The cooling fins on the side can be in conjunction with liquid cooling (its all at atmospheric temp). NEW2elec noted a "chiller plate" (maybe) between the 2 battery case halves. I am running with that.
If you are going on the photoshopped image, that's just guesswork. There is no official image of the motor yet. All we have seen is the front headlight, the top of the seat and tank, and now the battery area.
It could be possible the battery modules are in series giving over 200V as suggested by Crilly.
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if you watched the video clip I posted, you'd've seen the motor.
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If Zero had done it right, they would have gone over 400 volts.
The whole heatsinks only thought that the machines are already at their limit. What do you think the battery case weighs that is lead heavy.
With over 400 volts you don't need such things and the bike is very light.
Porsche shows with their Taycan the state of the art is
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My thoughts...If the SR/F does not have DC fast charging capabilities, then why the new design and motor? In my eyes, the bike will be dead on arrival without CCS.
I, along with everyone else, have been waiting for a decent bike with DC fast charging. Yeah the Energicas have it, but I have sat on one and sadly it's not the bike for me (they are huge). The Livewire, way over priced. The Lightning Strike....we'll see, fingers crossed.
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If Zero had done it right, they would have gone over 400 volts.
The whole heatsinks only thought that the machines are already at their limit. What do you think the battery case weighs that is lead heavy.
With over 400 volts you don't need such things and the bike is very light.
Porsche shows with their Taycan the state of the art is
As Zeros' chief electrical engineer who designed the IPM motor said, if a motor produces a certain amount of power then it makes no difference if the voltage is 100V or 400V it produces the same amount of heat in the motor.
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if you watched the video clip I posted, you'd've seen the motor.
No, I didn't see it, just scrolled back and found it now. Where did you get the video from?
Doesn't make much sense to me to have the fins running around the motor when it's not in the air flow. The previous design (fins running across) is a real cost saver. A continuous extrusion is a lot cheaper than a cast.
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So I have a question to put out there based on some of the ideas that has been presented on the SR/F. Now this will probably show my ignorance of how electric bikes work but if you are installing a larger, more powerful motor but keeping the same size battery wouldn't you get a decrease in range. That is of course if there aren't significant weight reductions (say in the frame). I mean the battery probably contributes most to the weight and maybe then the motor which is now most likely bigger. I can only relate it to my ICE experience. If they upgrade the engine from say 800cc to 1200cc but keep the same size gas tank, barring other significant changes, you will be stopping at the gas station more. I see a lot of people and articles saying more power and more range but is that realistic?
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So I have a question to put out there based on some of the ideas that has been presented on the SR/F. Now this will probably show my ignorance of how electric bikes work but if you are installing a larger, more powerful motor but keeping the same size battery wouldn't you get a decrease in range. That is of course if there aren't significant weight reductions (say in the frame). I mean the battery probably contributes most to the weight and maybe then the motor which is now most likely bigger. I can only relate it to my ICE experience. If they upgrade the engine from say 800cc to 1200cc but keep the same size gas tank, barring other significant changes, you will be stopping at the gas station more. I see a lot of people and articles saying more power and more range but is that realistic?
Gary, this is something I've always wondered about too. If you look at the specs for the S and the SR, the SR makes a LOT more power but when using equivalent batteries the range is unchanged...
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GaryArt1
In electric it's not the size of the motor that matters it's what you do with it. ;)
I'm not an expert either but based on a quick double check of the 2017 DS vs DSR range numbers from Zero both bikes had the same range estimates. The DSR has the 75-7 motor at 70hp while the DS had the 75-5 at around 60hp. Now if you use the more powerful motor to jump off the line quicker and jump to it's top speed faster and longer then you will have less range because you used more power over all.
Going the same speed on both with the same torque setting should give you the same range. But that's no fun. This bike is going for the performance rider so there is a likely real world, real ride range decrease from the same battery for that reason.
Ice bikes have to burn more fuel to move that bigger piston or more pistons of a bigger engine even at idle, which is one of the reasons city mileage is worse for ICE bikes than highway mileage, but with also the same energy loss for going faster and accelerating faster.
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if you watched the video clip I posted, you'd've seen the motor.
No, I didn't see it, just scrolled back and found it now. Where did you get the video from?
Doesn't make much sense to me to have the fins running around the motor when it's not in the air flow. The previous design (fins running across) is a real cost saver. A continuous extrusion is a lot cheaper than a cast.
Asphalt & Rubber originally posted it on their page, but the video itself is from Zero. I don't know why Zero doesn't have it on THEIR page though. I never understood why the cooling fins on the previous motors ran perpendicular to the path of travel as that doesn't seem particularly efficient at promoting airflow. Making them parallel to the path of travel makes more sense, but then it does cost more to produce. And who says the motor is outside the airflow? Don't you think that was a consideration when the bike was designed? These things are all modeled out on sophisticated CAD/CAM systems before physical mockups are produced and the first prototype spins a wheel.
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As for the motor fins. There was an old live feed from the Zero execs saying the current fin design was used because it was a cheaper manufacturing process but were a little embarrassed when people pointed out how bad the air flow was with that design.
This one should get air moving all around the motor getting more air to more surface area of metal cooling it better.
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As for the motor fins. There was an old live feed from the Zero execs saying the current fin design was used because it was a cheaper manufacturing process but were a little embarrassed when people pointed out how bad the air flow was with that design.
This one should get air moving all around the motor getting more air to more surface area of metal cooling it better.
The same sort of radial fin arrangement was used on very early ICE motorcycles, but was soon changed to fins that paralleled the air flow, so as to provide more efficient engine cooling when moving. (Perhaps this was not a big concern with ICE motorcycles during the early 1900's. ;) ) So I would agree that the fin arrangement of the Zero motors likely has a lot more to do with the ease and cost of manufacturing the motor case and less with cooling efficiency.
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My $0.02 on motor fins: When I first saw the "lateral" direction of the fins on the Z-force motors, I was also thinking it's completely wrong, but I could also see that it was a lot simpler extrusion than "longitudinal" fins would have been. Then I realized the motor's not out in the airstream anyhow, and Zero didn't make any cowlings or anything to direct air at the motor, so any airflow it's getting at speed is really just turbulence off of the stuff in front of it, anyhow. It would seem, since Zero did make the change, that longitudinal fins are better than lateral ones, but how much, really?
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Producing the same amount of power from a larger motor generally means producing less heat per volume of mass (or the surface area to radiate+conduct it externally). So, the larger size of a 75-10 motor has that going for it even if you don't use the power.
I have no use for additional power (and my regular passenger can easily be jerked around on my DSR if I'm not careful), but maybe this means the motor will last longer and perform better in the heat, which is commendable.
What'd really be a nice trick is if they figured out how to make the motor encoder position sensor more reliable, design-wise, but it'll take some digging later to reveal that properly.
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As Zeros' chief electrical engineer who designed the IPM motor said, if a motor produces a certain amount of power then it makes no difference if the voltage is 100V or 400V it produces the same amount of heat in the motor.
That's the greatness bullshit I've ever heard!
What makes the coils of an electric motor get hot? From voltage or the current
With such a statement, the probability of CCS equals "Zero" ;D
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If a motor is 80 percent, 20 percent is waste heat. Two motors running at same power, a big one produces the same heat as a small one. Same btu’s. The smaller one gets hotter is all, but same wasted energy. All wasted energy is heat.
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As Zeros' chief electrical engineer who designed the IPM motor said, if a motor produces a certain amount of power then it makes no difference if the voltage is 100V or 400V it produces the same amount of heat in the motor.
That's the greatness bullshit I've ever heard!
What makes the coils of an electric motor get hot? From voltage or the current
With such a statement, the probability of CCS equals "Zero" ;D
Pwaste = Imotor2 Rparasitic
= (Pmotor / Vmotor)2 Rparasitic
= Pmotor2 Rparasitic / Vmotor2
= constant / Vmotor2
So I think you are right. To first order, the heat dissipation varies as the inverse square of the motor voltage. Quadrupling the voltage should cut waste heat by an order of magnitude. Just like in transmission lines.
But certainly the Zero engineer was referring to the mechanical power output of the motor as opposed to the waste heat, and in that context was also correct.
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At some point, I think there's a risk to changing too many things at once. We've already got proof they've got a new frame, new motor, new battery case, new dash, and possibly more.
I suspect the increase in motor rotor size will reduce or eliminate the motor heat issue except in extreme conditions, the battery fins will help with charging heat, and traction control will make it all usable.
If they don't increase battery voltage and provide more or equal level 2 charging standard, I'd be pretty happy. For all the hype, DC fast charging doesn't seem nearly as widespread around me, so I'm fine with 6kW+ level 2. Charging any faster than that without thermal management is a recipe for battery destruction.
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Basically the biggest reason to have DC fast charging has more to do with being competitive with lightning and harley and less to do with an actual need and benefit.
I'll take faster level 2 charging any day over harleys solution of only level 3 and level 1.
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As Zeros' chief electrical engineer who designed the IPM motor said, if a motor produces a certain amount of power then it makes no difference if the voltage is 100V or 400V it produces the same amount of heat in the motor.
That's the greatness bullshit I've ever heard!
What makes the coils of an electric motor get hot? From voltage or the current
With such a statement, the probability of CCS equals "Zero" ;D
Pwaste = Imotor2 Rparasitic
= (Pmotor / Vmotor)2 Rparasitic
= Pmotor2 Rparasitic / Vmotor2
= constant / Vmotor2
So I think you are right. To first order, the heat dissipation varies as the inverse square of the motor voltage. Quadrupling the voltage should cut waste heat by an order of magnitude. Just like in transmission lines.
But certainly the Zero engineer was referring to the mechanical power output of the motor as opposed to the waste heat, and in that context was also correct.
Idiocy
A good example were the 2012 motorcycles with the update to 75-7
The halved voltage (66Volt) was noticeable and could only be reduced with a perfectly adjusted motor. The same continuous power as the old motor he never had.The old motor, the heat could simply be dissipated by the forced ventilation!!!
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For all the hype, DC fast charging doesn't seem nearly as widespread around me, so I'm fine with 6kW+ level 2. Charging any faster than that without thermal management is a recipe for battery destruction.
When commuting I never use and need DC fast charging indeed, but DC fast charging allows me to do trips around the Netherlands, drive to Germany and do tours with ICE bikes. I can always leave home or work unexpectedly on low SOC and DC charge on the way. I realize I'm living around many DC chargers :), but I do not consider DC charging a hype at all. The battery case on the SR/F looks like thermal management has been given more attention.
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As for the motor fins. There was an old live feed from the Zero execs saying the current fin design was used because it was a cheaper manufacturing process but were a little embarrassed when people pointed out how bad the air flow was with that design.
This one should get air moving all around the motor getting more air to more surface area of metal cooling it better.
When Zero had the pod cast on the IPM motor the motor engineer said that the air flow was turbulent around the motor, so it didn't make hardly any difference the fins going across rather than around. The motor is behind the battery on both the SR/F and the SR so I would expect the same kind of air flow.
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As Zeros' chief electrical engineer who designed the IPM motor said, if a motor produces a certain amount of power then it makes no difference if the voltage is 100V or 400V it produces the same amount of heat in the motor.
That's the greatness bullshit I've ever heard!
What makes the coils of an electric motor get hot? From voltage or the current
With such a statement, the probability of CCS equals "Zero" ;D
This is a quote from Zero's motor designer, He knows a lot more than me, and probably you.
My guess is with a higher voltage motor you use smaller wires in the windings because they carry less current but more windings give more power, but the smaller wires get hot with less current, the end result is the same heat.
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I wish I could find the pod cast video. The question of higher volts = less heat was asked by a pod cast listener during the question and answer segment.
I am paraphrasing his answer but a 70hp motor that runs on 100V has the same internal heat as a 70 hp motor that runs on 400V. The motor designs are different.
If you put 400V into a 100V motor I would expect (I am no expert) you will get less power and less heat assuming the total kw is the same i.e. more volts less amps. Less amps = less torque, but it should rev more.
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1. Podcast: I looked for those a long time ago and the links I saved were dead but I think we watched the same Q&A session. I read their body language as being caught going cheap and not "best" but I've never had my motor over heat so it has worked good enough for me.
2. Fins: This new design just looks right. They haven't shown the lower cross section of the bike yet and "may" have a small air scoop ramp setup to get more air flow over the motor but that just a guess on my part. This new setup at least gives a uniform spacing for heat transfer and looks like more fins spaced closer together. I think it was the 2011 MX maybe that had an airflow duct with like a vacuum hose blowing air over the old DC motor which they dropped for whatever reason.
3. Voltage: Look myself and others are just guessing at this bikes operating voltage at this point. It may be 116V or 232V or however they choose to set it up. Zero has stated and it's pretty much a safety fact that 116V is nothing to play around with but most people can survive that shock. I think Zero feels that the risk isn't worth it right now as that's what they have stated often in the past. They are putting out a good bike with fun power and best range at that 116V rate and I feel they will likely keep it for now at least.
4. DC charging: I guess see point 3 since if the voltage stayed the same the stations weren't working with Zero's voltage (consistently).
I agree with Caza's quote:
"Basically the biggest reason to have DC fast charging has more to do with being competitive with lightning and harley and less to do with an actual need and benefit.
I'll take faster level 2 charging any day over harleys solution of only level 3 and level 1."
For most of the USA there just isn't enough DC stations to work for our travels at this time and level 2 is in far more areas. Europe is a different story they are way ahead of us in charging infrastructure of all types but DC for sure. There is a great benefit to DC fast charging but it's just too scarce in 2019 in the US.
Anyway a few more weeks and all our questions will be answered and we can start talking about what we want next. :)
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As far as Harley is concerned, I believe that the fast DC charging system has more to do with getting the Livewire customer back to the H-D dealership, than for reasons of product competition or customer convenience. ::) Remember, that every H-D dealership that sells the Livewire will have to have at least one DC charging station at their shop. While the customer is charging up his bike, he can run into the accessory department and spend more money on farkles and H-D clothing - as well as being a target for salesmen to up-sell him on a new big twin "man's" bike. ;)
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Good point Richard. Not having level2 charging is really unforgivable at that price.
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Not having level 2 charging on any roadgoing motorcycle is really unforgivable at any price. USA 15 amp 120v supply should be a last resort for anything other than a electric bicycle or skateboard.
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As far as Harley is concerned, I believe that the fast DC charging system has more to do with getting the Livewire customer back to the H-D dealership, than for reasons of product competition or customer convenience. ::) Remember, that every H-D dealership that sells the Livewire will have to have at least one DC charging station at their shop. While the customer is charging up his bike, he can run into the accessory department and spend more money on farkles and H-D clothing - as well as being a target for salesmen to up-sell him on a new big twin "man's" bike. ;)
I'd be interested to see how/if that works. For myself in particular, I can't think of any realistic scenario where I'd head to a Zero dealer to plug in, no matter how fast it charged. I mean maybe if there was a dealer that was exactly in the right place to enable me to make a trip I wouldn't otherwise have the range for, but generally I want to charge at my destination. In other words, I might take advantage of charging if I was going to the dealer anyway, but I wouldn't go out of my way to stop by the dealer just for a charge.
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Idiocy
A good example were the 2012 motorcycles with the update to 75-7
The halved voltage (66Volt) was noticeable and could only be reduced with a perfectly adjusted motor. The same continuous power as the old motor he never had.The old motor, the heat could simply be dissipated by the forced ventilation!!!
Not sure what you mean with that anecdote. Are you saying lower voltage equates to lower heat?
When a Zero engineer makes a statement, don't take it out of context, call bullshit on what you imagine he meant, and start badmouthing.
The torque of a DC motor is directly proportional to the current in the windings. The heat dissipated in the windings is proportional to the square of the current in the windings. Heat is linked to the square of the torque.
None of this has to do with what voltage was used to make the electrons move at a particular rate. Interesting summary of RPM/torque/voltage/current motor math: https://qr.ae/TUr6Tu (https://qr.ae/TUr6Tu)
Higher voltages don't increase torque but they do have other advantages, such as faster charging, and allowing for higher max RPM (back EMF is countered).
Heat increases resistance, and resistance increases heat. It is necessary to minimize resistance using larger wires/more wires in parallel, or better conductors or cooling. There are many variables to motor design but they can't violate physics.
Unless the SR/F has room temperature superconducting coils.
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This is a quote from Zero's motor designer, He knows a lot more than me, and probably you.
My guess is with a higher voltage motor you use smaller wires in the windings because they carry less current but more windings give more power, but the smaller wires get hot with less current, the end result is the same heat.
Simply borrow a book with technical formulas from the library and read it.
Or read the technical data of a Brammo engine.
Nm/A ;D
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As far as Harley is concerned, I believe that the fast DC charging system has more to do with getting the Livewire customer back to the H-D dealership, than for reasons of product competition or customer convenience. ::) Remember, that every H-D dealership that sells the Livewire will have to have at least one DC charging station at their shop. While the customer is charging up his bike, he can run into the accessory department and spend more money on farkles and H-D clothing - as well as being a target for salesmen to up-sell him on a new big twin "man's" bike. ;)
I'd be interested to see how/if that works. For myself in particular, I can't think of any realistic scenario where I'd head to a Zero dealer to plug in, no matter how fast it charged. I mean maybe if there was a dealer that was exactly in the right place to enable me to make a trip I wouldn't otherwise have the range for, but generally I want to charge at my destination. In other words, I might take advantage of charging if I was going to the dealer anyway, but I wouldn't go out of my way to stop by the dealer just for a charge.
But I bet most Harley dealers are usually doing stuff to bring their customers back into the shop, where they likely buy stuff. My local H-D dealer is always having customer rides, events and other "life-style" functions that get the "faithful" together at the shop. My BMW dealer does the same thing on a limited basis, but I think most Zero dealers do not - Hollywood Electrics being an obvious exception. ;)
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Idiocy
A good example were the 2012 motorcycles with the update to 75-7
The halved voltage (66Volt) was noticeable and could only be reduced with a perfectly adjusted motor. The same continuous power as the old motor he never had.The old motor, the heat could simply be dissipated by the forced ventilation!!!
Not sure what you mean with that anecdote. Are you saying lower voltage equates to lower heat?
When a Zero engineer makes a statement, don't take it out of context, call bullshit on what you imagine he meant, and start badmouthing.
The torque of a DC motor is directly proportional to the current in the windings. The heat dissipated in the windings is proportional to the square of the current in the windings. Heat is linked to the square of the torque.
None of this has to do with what voltage was used to make the electrons move at a particular rate. Interesting summary of RPM/torque/voltage/current motor math: https://qr.ae/TUr6Tu (https://qr.ae/TUr6Tu)
Higher voltages don't increase torque but they do have other advantages, such as faster charging, and allowing for higher max RPM (back EMF is countered).
Heat increases resistance, and resistance increases heat. It is necessary to minimize resistance using larger wires/more wires in parallel, or better conductors or cooling. There are many variables to motor design but they can't violate physics.
Unless the SR/F has room temperature superconducting coils.
An engine with power but without torque is worth nothing. ;D
You have to understand the relationship between power and torque!!!
You're always talk about how good the Zero's performance is and that other bikes have problems keeping up.
Then simply deduce the torque to the minimum with your app and see what is left of the power !!! ;)
A heap of misery :-[
If their assertion were correct, the 2012 motorcycles with the 2013 engine would have to have the same continuous power as the 2013 motorcycles, but they didn't and that's not because of the smaller controller but because they overheated earlier :P
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Some idle speculation (because I'm bored):
The SR/F will not use a battery. It will have the latest version of a "Mr. Fusion" power plant. Zero's engineers have managed to miniaturize a flux capacitor to where it is practical to install in a motorcycle-sized vehicle.
When this baby hits 88 mph you're going to see some SERIOUS SHIT!!
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I'm calling a 180 rear, chain... and the reason shock was relocated was to either make room for reduction gear assembly or to offset weight of a single sided swingarm
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I wish I could find the pod cast video. The question of higher volts = less heat was asked by a pod cast listener during the question and answer segment.
I am paraphrasing his answer but a 70hp motor that runs on 100V has the same internal heat as a 70 hp motor that runs on 400V. The motor designs are different.
If you put 400V into a 100V motor I would expect (I am no expert) you will get less power and less heat assuming the total kw is the same i.e. more volts less amps. Less amps = less torque, but it should rev more.
Was it this one? Luke Workman's interview at motorcycle.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZg237IUdFk
I know the point has been made that the high-efficiency power-FET transistors in the controllers tolerate 116VDC, but that for the automotive controllers, you need IGBTs, which have a little less efficiency in the controller. But automotive power cables are longer, so they have more loss in cable length at the lower voltage.
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I'm calling a 180 rear, chain... and the reason shock was relocated was to either make room for reduction gear assembly or to offset weight of a single sided swingarm
Oohh, single-sided swing arm would be sweeeeet..
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Nah Togo, that is a good interview and video but the podcasts were on a streaming service and it was a few Zero execs and a guy reading questions off a laptop. I think you could rewatch it for like a day then they just were dead links.
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Now Electrek says:
That “7†references the width of the magnets in the motor’s rotor, 7 cm (2.75 in). Thus, the new Z-FORCE 75-10 motor is likely to have a significantly wider motor with 10 cm (3.9 in) magnets.
Who to believe? Is it the width or the radius?
https://electrek.co/2019/02/13/zero-lightning-electric-motorcycle-strike-sr-f/ (https://electrek.co/2019/02/13/zero-lightning-electric-motorcycle-strike-sr-f/)
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refers to motor width, all the same diameter
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Okay, we've all speculated about the equipment, that seems to have run its course. Now let's go where the rubber meets the road. I'm predicting starting price will be around $23,000.
Who thinks I'm high, low, and by how much?
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Well according to the same Electrek article, it better be a lot lower if Zero expects to complete with the new Strike from Lighting .
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Okay, we've all speculated about the equipment, that seems to have run its course. Now let's go where the rubber meets the road. I'm predicting starting price will be around $23,000.
Who thinks I'm high, low, and by how much?
I think you are in the ball park, although my guess would be closer to $20K. ???
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Okay, we've all speculated about the equipment, that seems to have run its course. Now let's go where the rubber meets the road. I'm predicting starting price will be around $23,000.
Who thinks I'm high, low, and by how much?
I think you are in the ball park, although my guess would be closer to $20K. ???
AND I'm hoping you are a little high.... BECAUSE I just might be needing one of these !!!!
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I am truly hoping for their own good they come in around $20K and with the features we want. Otherwise they may lose to Lightning. Lightning is coming out with some interesting specs on the the Strike. Today they are saying a liquid cooled motor.
On another topic, I like the way Lightning is teasing their bike more than Zero. They are coming out with real specs rather than blacked out photos. We just have no idea what specs come with the lower priced model.
Well I am in the market for a bike in the next few months and both the Strike and the SR/F has my attention. I guess it will be which company brings a better product to the table though I am very uncomfortable with Lightning’s lack of dealer network.
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So a question for you guys. As I said in last post Lightning announced the Strike's motor will be liquid cooled. It never mentioned any other part that will be cooled this way. Now I've seen complaints about Zero's overheating. It seemed like more of a battery issue than motor. Ideally what needs "extra" cooling on these bikes; motor, battery or charger? I've rode Harley's that felt like I was sitting on a oven and I am glad my current ICE is liquid cooled. I don't want to get into another oven situation.
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I test rode a Buell v twin and is sure put out some heat.
The ktm has anti freeze solution and two tiny radiators. The controller and the motor are cooled with this liquid. I suppose I would feel better if it was oil instead of anti freeze solution. I can get the batteries hot on my leaf blower and chain saw but not the KTM the way I use it.
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Personally, I'm not holding my breath that the Lightning Strike is going to be earth-shattering when it arrives. Too many sins can be hidden in that phrase "prices starting at". Does the base model have a 7kWhr battery? A less powerful motor/controller? No fast charging? What's it REALLY going to cost when configured with all the goodies they're saying will be available? And don't get me wrong, the LS-218 seems like an awesome price-is-no-object exercise, but I wonder if it's reasonable to expect a high-quality, economical design from a company that makes Zero look like a grizzled old veteran.
As far as I'm concerned, Zero remains the best bang-for-the-buck solution until proven otherwise. And until such time, I think Zero still experiences a fair amount of pressure to reduce prices, but no more than before. If they're going to offer a significant upgrade to a $17k motorcycle, it's going to be priced like an upgraded model.
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Doug, I agree with you that the SR/F is not going to be the cheap Zero everyone has been hoping for. Competition or not one thing I know will keep the pricing up is that they already released the 2019 SR. There had been some that purchased the SR in the last few months. It would be an insult to their customers if they came out with an updated bike that was the same price. So if you added on the charge tank it puts the SR at about $18k +/-. That is why I think they could price it at about $20k. That way they don't drive away sales but don't get complaints from people with a 2019 SR. Now they can also price it at $25k saying that the livewire is still $5k more but I think that would be a mistake. They could then have a similar situation the livewire is going to have in that it is a limited release bike. To be honest, at $23-25k I would probably just get the 2019 SR or DSR.
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I'm going to guess $23,790. I think it will be a significant upgrade and worth it for some people but not a volume seller.
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I'm going to guess $23,790. I think it will be a significant upgrade and worth it for some people but not a volume seller.
"not a volume seller" This has been Zero's problem all along. Whether you believe the stories they sell 750 or 2000 bikes a year, they have not had any volume sellers. Yes they are big for electric bikes but that wouldn't even rate them as a small ICE motorcycle company. If they don't get a volume seller soon, Zero will go the way of Alta Motors. I hope the SR/F is as one dealer described as "game changer". They can really use that.
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So a question for you guys. As I said in last post Lightning announced the Strike's motor will be liquid cooled. It never mentioned any other part that will be cooled this way. Now I've seen complaints about Zero's overheating. It seemed like more of a battery issue than motor. Ideally what needs "extra" cooling on these bikes; motor, battery or charger? I've rode Harley's that felt like I was sitting on a oven and I am glad my current ICE is liquid cooled. I don't want to get into another oven situation.
The Lightning LS218 was on Jay Leno's garage and he talked about it having an oil cooled motor ( it was a very nice case that held the motor and was part of the frame support). He said it had "liquid" cooled electronics and an air cooled (with fins) battery.
I don't think these bikes ever feel hot or put out heat the MBB just limits what it will do when it gets to high "battery" temps.
He also said the bike would go about 20 miles if at top speed the whole way so that shows what kind of power heat that thing could put out.
On Lightnings web page they talk about the only bike you will be able to get at first is the "Carbon" model with a $10,000 deposit. They say it will be fully optioned so we'll see what it costs and what you get in March. "IF" the Carbon model is 30k-40k and they don't sell many they "may " never offer the cheap one with the $500 deposit.
I don't know if I'm being negative or realistic, we'll see.
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Zero will face some tough competition with the Strike. Right now, their only real advantage is that they already have a dealer network.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-motor-teased/
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Zero will face some tough competition with the Strike. Right now, their only real advantage is that they already have a dealer network.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-motor-teased/
And customers are riding Zeros already.
And Zero sells bikes with known specs above and below the base model Strike price point. Nobody knows the the base Strike's specs, nobody knows the Carbon's price, and nobody knows price or specs for the SR/F. Too little info to know if it will be competitive on price versus performance or not.
I'm going to guess $23,790. I think it will be a significant upgrade and worth it for some people but not a volume seller.
"not a volume seller" This has been Zero's problem all along. Whether you believe the stories they sell 750 or 2000 bikes a year, they have not had any volume sellers. Yes they are big for electric bikes but that wouldn't even rate them as a small ICE motorcycle company. If they don't get a volume seller soon, Zero will go the way of Alta Motors. I hope the SR/F is as one dealer described as "game changer". They can really use that.
I don't see any bike selling at a higher price than the current top of the line Zero being a volume seller. A flagship product can boost their credibility, but I just don't think there are enough people that want to spend more than the price of a loaded SR to get it. I'm still hoping that the tech trickles down over the next few years to the other models without raising their prices.
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Right now, their only real advantage is that they already have a dealer network.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-motor-teased/
Are you serious? From this site I have obtained a link where I can see the (Zero) parts sheets with part number and get an idea of the pricing on parts? It is not quite like being on Bike Bandit or Rocky mountain site that has the major Japanese brands and maybe others but this is part of what it will take to go main stream.
Not sure what the current customer is like for this kind of product. There was a thread on here about an EVA that was damaged in shipping and the parts prices put in the thread was pretty high in my estimation.
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Nobody knows the the base Strike's specs, nobody knows the Carbon's price, and nobody knows price or specs for the SR/F. Too little info to know if it will be competitive on price versus performance or not.
My point exactly. There are a lot of people making a ton of assumptions based on a bare teaser of a sales sheet. Obviously, it's done its job.
I don't see any bike selling at a higher price than the current top of the line Zero being a volume seller. A flagship product can boost their credibility, but I just don't think there are enough people that want to spend more than the price of a loaded SR to get it. I'm still hoping that the tech trickles down over the next few years to the other models without raising their prices.
I agree with this analysis as well. But the point of the SR/F may not be to sell a lot of bikes, the point might be just to show that Zero offers a complete line of vehicles, make a splash, and bring people into the dealerships to look at it. If Zero doesn't offer a high-end product, they cede the high ground to HD, Lightning or someone else, and risk turning into the Kia of electric motorcycles. Better to become like Toyota, with a wide range of vehicles.
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In my view, Zero has designed a new chassis and motor to replace their original chassis and to offer another motor choice for future models. The SR/F is just the first platform to use it. They are likely doing the BMW-thing and starting out with a fancy new low-production model that will have a high price to attract the usual group of "gotta have the first one" beta-testers, something that BMW is very good at - even though their customers know never to buy the first year's new model, they do it anyway. Once any problems are resolved with the new platform on the relatively few models sold, the chassis and new components will migrate to the rest of their mainstream bikes and the prices will be lowered as production volume of the new chassis and motor increases. That is what I think is going on. ;)
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I think a new wider motor needs a new frame, pure and simple, and with more power, a stronger frame while they are at it. It will also need a much stronger belt or chain. More power draw means they need better battery cooling, so that's redesigned.
I see the changes as a chain reaction rippling through the bike as a consequence of a more powerful motor, but while still trying to use some common components (battery modules).
There are some tech upgrades (LED headlight for one), I hope they also develop a better dash and app to go with it.
Not long to wait now though.
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I'd really appreciate a keyless proximity fob. But maybe that's too premium a feature. Who knows if they considered such things.
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It'll all stay "the same".
14.4 kWh 116Volt max a larger motor that has more torque, a battery with ventilation duct and maybe an integrated fast charger with 8-9kWh.
For water-cooled batteries and motors the effort is too big makes the bike heavy and vulnerable. Zero is not ready for such a technology yet and you already have problems with the simple technology and the support. ???
Zero has always been simple and easy to build and why should you change it? It only costs a lot of money and range.
I just hope the bike frame gets bigger so the seating position gets better and it's not always called a light bike.
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I'd really appreciate a keyless proximity fob. But maybe that's too premium a feature. Who knows if they considered such things.
I've actually grown to hate those to the point where I'd pay for a metal key if it were an option, but it certainly seems like it is the future for vehicles and I am in the minority with my opinion.
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I'd really appreciate a keyless proximity fob. But maybe that's too premium a feature. Who knows if they considered such things.
I've actually grown to hate those to the point where I'd pay for a metal key if it were an option, but it certainly seems like it is the future for vehicles and I am in the minority with my opinion.
"Hate" is a rather strong word BUT it does make vehicles who use them almost ridiculously easy to steal unless you take precautions.
https://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/18/keyless-ignitions-car%20theft/
https://www.admiral.com/magazine/news-and-current-affairs/relay-theft-how-to-protect-your-car
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I'd really appreciate a keyless proximity fob. But maybe that's too premium a feature. Who knows if they considered such things.
I've actually grown to hate those to the point where I'd pay for a metal key if it were an option, but it certainly seems like it is the future for vehicles and I am in the minority with my opinion.
I felt the same way you do domingo, but my BMW R12RS was only available with the keyless fob system that turns the ignition on and off, locks and unlocks both the bike and the gas cap remotely. I have grown to like the system as I can hid the fob somewhere on my body where I can't get at it and therefore can't loose it, or accidentally leave it in the bike's lock when I walk off. While I did have to replace its $4 battery once after 3 years of use, I received plenty of warning on the dash that the battery was getting weak. As long as the keyless systems work as they are supposed to and don't malfunction, I think they are great - as long as..... ;)
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One of the few things BMW did right with the C650GT was their key system. It was still a physical key, but there was an RFID chip in it. You could unlock the steering head, but unless the RFID chip in the key was recognized, it would not start. I think I prefer that system over a completely keyless system (especially one that requires a battery that will eventually run down).
My new car has the latter system and I make sure the fob nearest our front door is stored in a metal box (Faraday cage) to prevent the kind of theft described in the second article I linked above.
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I think I prefer that system over a completely keyless system (especially one that requires a battery that will eventually run down).
Not much of an issue. My Harley has a keyless system FOB and if the battery goes dead, I just enter my six digit PIN number to start the bike until I get around to replacing the battery, which I have a couple of spares in the bike anyway.
I really like the key FOB system with the passive entry in my Harley. I wish all my vehicles had such.
My Tesla Model Three Key Fob does not have passive entry, I have to press a button. Then I have a few minutes to move the car. If this FOB fails, I have a card as well as an application on a SmartPhone to unlock the car.
AFAIK, there is always a backup of some type if a FOB battery craps out. Besides that those FOB batteries usually last around ten years.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I just read a first-ride review of the 2019 125cc Honda Super Cub, which has a MSRP of $3,600. It comes with a keyless key fob system, so I guess they can't be too expensive of an option. ???
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I have grown to like the system as I can hid the fob somewhere on my body where I can't get at it and therefore can't loose it, or accidentally leave it in the bike's lock when I walk off.
I make sure I'll never lose my fob by implanting it in my left hand. Very useful for doors and unlocking my PC. I've not got round to rigging it up so that it works with my Zero yet though.
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Keyless is the way to go. Ever since I got a car with keyless I've never looked back. It's simply far more convenient, and with modern keys costing far more than the metal they're made of due to having security chips, I don't even see cost as an advantage of keyed systems.
The 2019 Monkey also has a keyless system and a built in alarm -in the UK, but the US version has neither of these features. (And uglier indicators) I wonder if the new Cub is the same.
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Keyless is the way to go. Ever since I got a car with keyless I've never looked back. It's simply far more convenient, and with modern keys costing far more than the metal they're made of due to having security chips, I don't even see cost as an advantage of keyed systems.
The 2019 Monkey also has a keyless system and a built in alarm -in the UK, but the US version has neither of these features. (And uglier indicators) I wonder if the new Cub is the same.
According to the U.S. press review that I read, the Cub does come with a key fob system. However, there was no mention of an alarm.
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I've worked in the software industry for two decades, and worked at an infosec company and with many infosec professionals over the years. I've chatted with vehicle hackers at DefCon.
So, when I say that keyless fob systems are pretty much a joke to impersonate or spoof, please take me seriously. If a vendor came out with this, I know who I could take it to for assessment, and I would bet on the implementation being irrevocably flawed.
For reference, I think all electronic voting machines are grossly insecure and elections are most secure when conducted by confidential but accountable paper ballots.
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So, when I say that keyless fob systems are pretty much a joke to impersonate or spoof, please take me seriously. If a vendor came out with this, I know who I could take it to for assessment, and I would bet on the implementation being irrevocably flawed.
Are you talking about FOBS that use the rolling code technology? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_code)
If so, I would like to hear about such flaws.
IMO, they are much better than keys--even more reliable. I have had to replace many ignition locks. I have never had a problem with any of my Fobs.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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So, when I say that keyless fob systems are pretty much a joke to impersonate or spoof, please take me seriously. If a vendor came out with this, I know who I could take it to for assessment, and I would bet on the implementation being irrevocably flawed.
Are you talking about FOBS that use the rolling code technology? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_code)
If so, I would like to hear about such flaws.
IMO, they are much better than keys--even more reliable. I have had to replace many ignition locks. I have never had a problem with any of my Fobs.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Fobs are too new for me to have any kind of assessment BUT I've been driving cars since 1975 and motorcycles since 1982. I have NEVER had to replace an ignition lock on ANY of my vehicles, and I tend to keep them until I run them into the ground (I'm not the kind of person who buys a new vehicle every few years). For reference, I had my last Subaru for 17 years and JUST replaced it a year ago. I still have my 1999 K1200LT which will be twenty years old in July and has over 214,000 miles.
And by an odd coincidence, the K1200LT had a security fob which I had to use in conjunction with the ignition key. A couple of years ago I was stranded in Savannah GA on my way back from Daytona Bike Week because the fob fell off the key ring somewhere on I-95. After lunch I was unable to start the bike and had it towed to a nearby hotel (naturally this was on a Saturday and the closest BMW dealer was over 100 miles away). Thanks to Google and YouTube I found the information I needed to disable the anti-theft system and I was able to continue my ride home the following day. I've since had the alarm system removed, I figure no one would want to steal a bike that old with that many miles anyway. Just the trusty old steel key from now on.
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I posted about Energica's new prototype with Samsung that uses your smart whatever as your key. Figuring you'll never be without it.
I see pros and cons to both. Maybe facial recognition or something in the future that you just can't lose or copy.
For now I'll take an old key and theft insurance.
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My 2013 DS was stolen by coring out the lock, so I’m mindful of security concerns.
I think that even with a rolling code, the security of a system involves a whole system analysis that a vehicle manufacturer does not have the ability to assess and retain. This is analogous to how government IT projects tend to fail, because bureaucrats must hire and retain competent people while paying below market rates. There just aren’t enough people who are experts in threat analysis, cryptographic implementation analysis, and embedded systems coding to hire at an economical rate.
Any mathematical or systems composition flaw can result in the codes being predictable without the designer having made a mistake of competence. PRNGs have flaws, as well as the coding of firmware that uses the algorithms can accidentally reduce the dimensional space to search for a code break.
Hackers have side channels like knowing the serial number on the bike or when it was booted or they might measure timing of signals or responses from the vehicle to infer information the systems designer wanted to hide. And it might be enough information to crack the code.
I’m not saying it can’t be done. I’m saying I’ve met really smart people in this space and have listened enough to understand how risky it is to attempt this, especially based on the track record of car fobs.
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These are motorcycles guys. You can just throw em in a van and mess with it later.
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These are motorcycles guys. You can just throw em in a van and mess with it later.
This is exactly like I feel. It is like the discussion (argument) my wife and I had when I installed an electronic smart lock on our house door. She was worried about the would be robber using sophisticated computer technology to hack into our lock. I was worried about the junkie with the free rock from my yard breaking the window 2 feet from the door and just climbing in. With a motorcycle the easiest way to steal it is a couple guys with a van or pickup lift it in. So I would rather have the convenience of a keyless ignition and deal with the slight chance someone with the right electronic equipment will target my bike.
I think the best theft deterent the Zeros has is that with the small quantity of them sold, there is not a huge parts market. You steal a Honda Gold wing, you can probably part it out for 3x the price of the bike and would have no problem getting people to buy. I don't think this is so with the Zeros.
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Any security system can be defeated, one way or another. There has to be some way to defeat it for the case where the rightful owner loses access. And as @flattetyre says, a motorcycle can be loaded on a truck or a car onto a flatbed truck. The purpose of any security system is to make theft less convenient, increase the risk of being apprehended, and thus less likely to occur. On a day to day basis I’ll take the convenience of keyless.
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My motivation for keyless is also not theft prevention, but sheer convenience. It's so quick to jump on an e-bike and drive off that putting in the key is annoying. And then I forgot to close the top box and have to use it twice more. Meanwhile, the keys have stripped the paint off the triple clamp (yes, this the biggest drawback to my FX, haha).
I think the best theft deterent the Zeros has is that with the small quantity of them sold, there is not a huge parts market. You steal a Honda Gold wing, you can probably part it out for 3x the price of the bike and would have no problem getting people to buy. I don't think this is so with the Zeros.
I doubt a common thief would give any thought to future maintenance, especially the idiot ones in San Francisco that stole my friend's helmet by cutting off the freaking D rings. They can have this super cool toy and just keep plugging it into the wall until it's dead. E-bikes could start getting targeted once they're more popular.
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The point is that a fob spoofer once assembled / programmed is easier and lower-risk to use than coring the lock or throwing the bike in a van.
Convenience for the owner can become convenience for the thief/vandal if the system isn't secured as a whole.
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This thread is a big ad for investing in Alcoa (aluminum foil manufacturer)
My tin foil key cover and matching hat are already deployed!
FWIW, I've owned many motos and cars with and without keyless ignition. For cars, it's been a real plus. Less so for motos. That sounds irrational (tinfoil hats again), but IMHO firing up a car is not the same as firing up a motorcycle. So much more stuff requires attention for a motorcycle driver. Insert and turn that key and be reminded that every car, pedestrian and deer within 30 meters of you is going to kill you if you let them. Fussing with that key can be a useful good wakeup call. YMMV.
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It use to be “who dies with the most pistons winsâ€. Now it’s has the most fobs wins.
A key chain full of fobs just does not make it.
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I guess I'm not clear what functionality a key fob really provides for a motorcycle.
On my car, I walk up to it with the fob in my pocket, touch the door handle, the car beeps and unlocks. Then I get in and push a button, and again, because of the proximity of the key fob, the car starts and runs. That already seems marginal in utility. Pushing a button is somehow better than turning a key? I guess it's cool that I don't have to dig my keys out of my pocket.
On the bike, I suppose if the key fob is near, pushing a button would start the bike and unlock the fork, rather than turning the key. So again, I suppose it's nice that I don't have to dig the key out of my pocket.
I guess I don't see that that tiny bit of convenience is worth the extra expense, weight, and complication of creating an always-on power supply on the bike (so it can recognize the proximity of the key fob), a solenoid to lock/unlock the fork, and anyhow I still want a key as backup for when the key fob battery runs out or the key fob gets crunched or dropped in water.
I'm an incredibly lazy bastard, but I'm really okay with digging my key out of my pocket.
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I guess I don't see that that tiny bit of convenience is worth the extra expense, weight, and complication of creating an always-on power supply on the bike (so it can recognize the proximity of the key fob), a solenoid to lock/unlock the fork, and anyhow I still want a key as backup for when the key fob battery runs out or the key fob gets crunched or dropped in water.
In the rain, right now I put the loop of my key lanyard through a velcro loop on my gloves, hoping I don't drop them. My fingers are occupied carrying the side cases holding stuff I want to keep dry. It's impossible to fish the keys out of my riding pants pocket unless I take off my gloves; which I'm trying to avoid to keep the glove liner dry. I guess I could put the keys in the unprotected jacket pocket where my garage door fob normally goes when it's dry, but there's still some fishing around and putting water in the pocket before it gets there on its own. It would be much easier and quicker, though, if the bike got itself ready as I walked up; sensing a fob inside a protected pocket. I'd also be okay with adding the requirement to enter a PIN, like Tesla is now doing (ID verification with something you have and something you know). Not cheap but extremely cool.
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Back to the security issue: Some have already pointed out how easy it is for a couple of people to simply lift the bike and toss it into a panel truck to work on the locks/safety systems away from prying eyes.
If you're really serious about theft prevention, the solution of course, is a sturdy lock and chain to lock your motorcycle to an immovable object. You're going to need a KEY for that lock so what, precisely, have you saved for "convenience??"
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The question is really how serious you are about anti-theft precautions.
Most people, quite simply, aren't. And your need to be more vigilant about theft is going to depend on your own personality as well as the areas you frequent.
Most of the places I bring my bike I'm not super concerned about theft. Not that it can't happen, but it isn't a common occurrence. So if a fob makes my bike technically easier to steal by a sophisticated spoofer, that doesn't really change much for me. I park my car in the same places and no one has spoofed the fob and stolen it. I'm not locking my car up to a lamp-post with a chain, why should I worry about my bike?
Again, you might be in different areas or just be more nervous about theft in general, ymmv.
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If you're really serious about theft prevention, the solution of course, is a sturdy lock and chain to lock your motorcycle to an immovable object. You're going to need a KEY for that lock so what, precisely, have you saved for "convenience??"
I don't chain my bike at work. The motorcycle parking is adjacent to a guard shack occupied by a Gold Wing-riding guard during the day.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing this all wrong. The person who does the coolest take-offs I've seen doesn't lock his bike. In one continuous movement he walks up, puts his leg over, rolls back as he hits the starter, changes direction and rides off. Gone in six seconds.
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> If you're really serious about theft prevention, the solution of course, is a sturdy lock and chain to lock your motorcycle to an immovable object. ...
That may not be legal on a public street. I think that may be how I lost my Honda 650 Nighthawk back a decade ago. Check your local laws before doing this.
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> ... The person who does the coolest take-offs I've seen doesn't lock his bike. In one continuous movement he walks up, puts his leg over, rolls back as he hits the starter, changes direction and rides off. Gone in six seconds.
I guess you could RFID your thigh, add a reader to the zero.
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Fred> I make sure I'll never lose my fob by implanting it in my left hand. Very useful for doors and unlocking my PC. I've not got round to rigging it up so that it works with my Zero yet though.
Will you do just the ignition unlock (fairly easy) or also the steering lock (more involved), Fred?
If you come up with a mechanical lock design, I'd definitely be interested in seeing it. I'm not ready to do an implanted nfc yet, but a phone proximity unlock would be cool.
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Friends, this is a motorcycle for pete sake. If you want a key fob for remote lock, unlocked, starting, alarm etc., then go buy a car.
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Friends, this is a motorcycle for pete sake. If you want a key fob for remote lock, unlocked, starting, alarm etc., then go buy a car.
Woot! Woot!! What HE said!!!
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Friends, this is a motorcycle for pete sake. If you want a key fob for remote lock, unlocked, starting, alarm etc., then go buy a car.
I can understand your sentiment but let's look at it another way. What still gets me if the SR/F is rumored to be around $20k plus. Lets just take $20k. If I walk into an dealer and say I want to spend $20K on bike, they are not going to be showing me a basic naked bike. The bikes I will be looking at has a full fairing, stereo, navigation, traction control, comfortable seats, etc. So I can see people wanting the modern conveniences like key fobs when they are plunking down #20K. I would like auto cancelling turn signals so my buddies don't have to keep making fun of me when I leave them on too long. Is it too much to ask for? I guess a basic naked electric bike is what we get for the price when we are early adopters.
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For the hundredth time:
The battery is at least one third of the list price for all Zero models.
You’re paying for very carefully assembled and QA/QC tested batteries that occupy most of the dry weight and volume of the bike.
Zero sells a much cheaper bike with their own powertrain with the remainder.
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+1.......try finding another electric motorcycle for $11K - $17K with as many features and proven technology as a Zero. You can't. It doesn't exist.
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Y'all never heard about theft insurance?? ;D ;D ;D
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You’re paying for very carefully assembled and QA/QC tested batteries that occupy most of the dry weight and volume of the bike.
Zero sells a much cheaper bike with their own powertrain with the remainder.
Does Zero charge no margin on batteries? Anyway the higher cost of the bike makes premium features cost a smaller percentage, so it's more justifiable adding them and expecting them, not to the point where they become a distraction.
The maxxed-out F850GS is $16,600 with LCD display/nav/entertainment, ABS, stability control, traction control, dynamic suspension, keyless fob, heated grips, cruise control, 125mph top speed, TPMS, luggage mounts, ...
Not that all of it is needed, but throw us some carrots please. Zero, you have 1 week left to add them. :)
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The person who does the coolest take-offs I've seen doesn't lock his bike. In one continuous movement he walks up, puts his leg over, rolls back as he hits the starter, changes direction and rides off. Gone in six seconds.
Yes, THAT is what I want! Also, without the interminable 3-second delay between Kick Stand Up and forward motion.
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This guy added keyless fob to his Zero S. He even went further so that the luggage compartment remains unlocked whenever he's near.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1vdho1gihU
He had to add a 12V accessory battery. But he echoes my sentiments at 2:45.
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This guy added keyless fob to his Zero S. He even went further so that the luggage compartment remains unlocked whenever he's near.
I did buy the parts he uses when I first saw this video a couple of years ago, but I haven't installed them. Not that I've been lazy about accessorizing, just haven't gotten to this one yet.
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Friends, this is a motorcycle for pete sake. If you want a key fob for remote lock, unlocked, starting, alarm etc., then go buy a car.
Lane splitting would be messier with a car, increase insurance premiums, and maybe result in a suspended license.
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I did buy the parts he uses when I first saw this video a couple of years ago, but I haven't installed them. Not that I've been lazy about accessorizing, just haven't gotten to this one yet.
Do you really need the battery bank when you can just simply tap into the top of the fuse box for a constant 12V power source? I wouldn't think so and it will save you $50.
Oops.......now that I think about it, maybe the power going to the fuse box is all switched on with the key. But since the bike a mostly a big battery there must be another way to get an always on power source.
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What do you think happens when you turn on the key???
It connects an input wire to an output wire. The output wire goes to the MBB (bike computer). It powers up and connects 116V from the main battery to the DC to DC converter enable pin. The DC to DC converter then starts up and you have 12V power.
Is the input wire to the key 12V or 116V or is it just joining two wires that come from the MBB to make a circuit that the MBB detects and it starts up???
I would expect it's not 116V as it's not in an orange sheath for high voltage.
If it's 12V then there is your always on power, but if it's just making a curcuit (with very small voltage/current through it) could it be used to drive another chip that makes the circuit???
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Okay I found this video that I remembered seeing before about an always on power source on the Zero, but it's more work and risk than I'm willing to undertake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52pcmL2Lq8
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Less than a week away. We'll see how closely we got with our guesses.
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Now you guys have piqued my curiosity with the remote push button stater. Does anyone have a link to the fob and receiver kit from Amazon that the guy in the video used? I didn't see one that looked like his when I did my search. Found this one on Amazon though. Does it do the same thing?
https://www.amazon.com/Logisys-RM01-Channel-Wireless-Control/dp/B000ZRXJY2/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?keywords=proximity+key+fob+and+receiver&qid=1550594193&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr1
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Does anyone have a link to the fob and receiver kit from Amazon that the guy in the video used?
I think this is the one; at least it's the one I ordered: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0096DLZLK/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This is the battery: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016BJCRUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Fred> I make sure I'll never lose my fob by implanting it in my left hand. Very useful for doors and unlocking my PC. I've not got round to rigging it up so that it works with my Zero yet though.
Will you do just the ignition unlock (fairly easy) or also the steering lock (more involved), Fred?
If you come up with a mechanical lock design, I'd definitely be interested in seeing it. I'm not ready to do an implanted nfc yet, but a phone proximity unlock would be cool.
If I do it, then it'll be steering lock too. I can't see the point otherwise. I agree it'll be tricky though. I probably need a spare top triple clamp and lock to work from.
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4 more days.. the wait is killing me :-X :-X :-X
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It boggles my mind that guys on an electric motorcycle forum are saying they prefer a key over a keyless system. Having used a keyless system for a year now, I wish all of my bikes had one. It is just so much more convenient for me, especially in the winter time with bulky gloves and bulky clothing. I probably haven't even seen my FOB in a couple of months now. I put on my gear and ride off. I hope the SR/F has a keyless system of some kind. I wish my new Honda Monkey did.
I also think the security risks are way overblown. I doubt the difference in security is more than negligible and I have insurance which doesn't seem to cost more with the FOB.
As for the guys saying "Come on guys, this is a motorcycle.....we don't need that." I think that kind of thing has been said at just about every single innovation made to motorcycles starting from when the first piston was fitted to a bicycle. We don't "need" a lot of things but many are sure nice to have. Not that long ago it seemed that most people on motorcycles wanted nothing to do with ABS (..."my hand is all the ABS I need...blah blah blah"). Personally, I'm thrilled that some of the best bikes out there now come with cornering ABS and traction control (and that I can turn them off when I want).
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I well take cruise control over a fab any day.
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Personally, I'm thrilled that some of the best bikes out there now come with cornering ABS and traction control (and that I can turn them off when I want).
I think you can always turn off traction control on any car or bike.
But on many, you're stuck with ABS. Such as on my Triumph Trophy SE.
But it is very simple to remove ABS in most cases. Such as, on a Zero, unplug either wheel sensor or better yet, put a switch in series with the sensor so you can activate and dis-activate any time you wanna, which is easier than Zero's procedure to disable ABS.
-Don- Reno, NV
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4 more days.. the wait is killing me :-X :-X :-X
3 days and there is no news of any kind, no excitement, no unveiling events announced, no press releases since October, nothing posted on dealer websites, no excitement on Google or Facebonk. I was anxious to go out and watch it happen on Monday. Will dealers have anything to show? Very disappointed already. Are they about to miss the schedule, or merely preannounce to some press people? Fizzle. :(
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4 more days.. the wait is killing me :-X :-X :-X
3 days and there is no news of any kind, no excitement, no unveiling events announced, no press releases since October, nothing posted on dealer websites, no excitement on Google or Facebonk. I was anxious to go out and watch it happen on Monday. Will dealers have anything to show? Very disappointed already. Are they about to miss the schedule, or merely preannounce to some press people? Fizzle. :(
So I am one of us who is chewing at the bit for any information also. I never wish a weekend goes fast but I may do it this time. I read somewhere that the dealers will be meeting today. i am guessing they will get the first reveal. Not sure how tight lipped they are but I would hope some info leaks. I will guess no press will do anything until Monday being we are so close to all the facts. There are a lot of things I am hoping this bike is. I know it won't meet all my hopes but if it meets most, this may be my first electric motorcycle. Saying that, here is some things I hope the bike isn't.
Over $22K. And that is total (not starting at or base model). I can see it being around $20 being they would have to make it more expensive then the 2019 SR or why even have the SR. If it is over $22K, then it is a non starter in my book. It is getting too expensive and then I will have to chose if I will get a 2019 model or skip the electric bike all together until the prices become comparable with the ICE bikes.
Announced Monday released at the the end of the riding season. I mean come on Harley, how can you announce a bike and take pre-orders in January to ships in August. I never heard something so stupid (well maybe $39K for your first electric bike comes close). If Zero announces it, they should have models ready to ship. They should get demos into the dealerships before the spring. If I waited this long to find out they are just gearing up for production, I may jump ship.
Lastly and it is not a decision killer but a strong consideration, they change the on-board charging system. If reading on here is any indication of the poor quality of the on-board charger, I can't believe they didn't change brands already. I read something like a possible 40% failure rate. I mean this bike is battery, engine and charger. If they really screw up one of these, it doesn't bode well for the company.
I hope Monday is worth the wait.
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It boggles my mind that guys on an electric motorcycle forum are saying they prefer a key over a keyless system. Having used a keyless system for a year now, I wish all of my bikes had one. It is just so much more convenient for me, especially in the winter time with bulky gloves and bulky clothing. I probably haven't even seen my FOB in a couple of months now. I put on my gear and ride off. I hope the SR/F has a keyless system of some kind. I wish my new Honda Monkey did.
I also think the security risks are way overblown. I doubt the difference in security is more than negligible and I have insurance which doesn't seem to cost more with the FOB.
As for the guys saying "Come on guys, this is a motorcycle.....we don't need that." I think that kind of thing has been said at just about every single innovation made to motorcycles starting from when the first piston was fitted to a bicycle. We don't "need" a lot of things but many are sure nice to have. Not that long ago it seemed that most people on motorcycles wanted nothing to do with ABS (..."my hand is all the ABS I need...blah blah blah"). Personally, I'm thrilled that some of the best bikes out there now come with cornering ABS and traction control (and that I can turn them off when I want).
I'm sure my concerns are uncommon, but here's my issue. I do various activities, including water sports. I can lock my gear and the ignition key in the top box and lock the box with a combination lock. Sure, someone could break open the box and have the key, but I can be somewhat secure in leaving the bike parked in a public area. Locking the fob in the luggage does nothing, since it's basically the same as leaving a key in the ignition. Also, depending on the type of fob we're talking about, batteries can die or water can damage it. A metal key is dead simple and more rugged.
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4 more days.. the wait is killing me :-X :-X :-X
3 days and there is no news of any kind, no excitement, no unveiling events announced, no press releases since October, nothing posted on dealer websites, no excitement on Google or Facebonk. I was anxious to go out and watch it happen on Monday. Will dealers have anything to show? Very disappointed already. Are they about to miss the schedule, or merely preannounce to some press people? Fizzle. :(
I am really surprised that there has not been any more "teasers" from Zero or leaks from the press. ??? If the bikes are not already in the distribution pipeline (which I am pretty sure is not happening) then everyone that wants one will be doing the usual Zero-thing, placing a $1000 deposit with a Zero franchised dealer and sitting back and waiting for delivery.
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I'm sure my concerns are uncommon, but here's my issue. I do various activities, including water sports. I can lock my gear and the ignition key in the top box and lock the box with a combination lock. Sure, someone could break open the box and have the key, but I can be somewhat secure in leaving the bike parked in a public area. Locking the fob in the luggage does nothing, since it's basically the same as leaving a key in the ignition. Also, depending on the type of fob we're talking about, batteries can die or water can damage it. A metal key is dead simple and more rugged.
Just to let you know, there are cheap bags and boxes that block the RFID signal for key fobs. You put the fob into that and place it in your luggage, you are good to go. Or you can be cheap like me and wrap the extra fob in aluminum foil and place in car trunk and you won't have a problem. Batteries can die, yes but there is usually warnings. As for water damage, I usually have a zip lock bag to place cash and things that could be water damage. I know a metal key is 100% more simple but from my past as a locksmith, not really as secure as most think. I just like the convenience of leave the fob buried in your pocket and never having to dig for a key especially with gloves on.
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There really are times when I feel simpler is better. If you lose a metal key, often a locksmith can get you going again. If you lose an electronic key fob on the road, what do you do? I was fortunate when that happened to me that I was able to find information on the internet on how to disable the security system on my old bike... but if, instead of having a metal key and a security fob, if it was a keyless system? THEN what would I have done?
Same thing with "Throttle by Wire." Sure, throttle cables break... but that is often a relatively simple roadside repair, assuming you carry a spare cable on long trips. If your TbW system fails, what do you do??
I have enough familiarity with electronics to know they are FAR from failsafe. It's nice to have SOME systems that don't require an advanced degree in electronic engineering to be able to fix and get back on the road.
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There really are times when I feel simpler is better. If you lose a metal key, often a locksmith can get you going again. If you lose an electronic key fob on the road, what do you do? I was fortunate when that happened to me that I was able to find information on the internet on how to disable the security system on my old bike... but if, instead of having a metal key and a security fob, if it was a keyless system? THEN what would I have done?
Same thing with "Throttle by Wire." Sure, throttle cables break... but that is often a relatively simple roadside repair, assuming you carry a spare cable on long trips. If your TbW system fails, what do you do??
I have enough familiarity with electronics to know they are FAR from failsafe. It's nice to have SOME systems that don't require an advanced degree in electronic engineering to be able to fix and get back on the road.
Jaime, I can see what you saying. On bikes as old as ours, there is a lot done simpler, making for easier repairs. I like when I see guys complaining about the ABS systems on their bikes. I don't have to worry about that being I do not even have it. But I guess time marches on and modern technology though making it more convenient, makes it more complicated. I may be dating myself but I remember when I was a teenager and made extra money fixing cars. When I would troubleshoot, I would start a car up and listen and look. Sometimes even climb under the hood to fix something (yeah they had extra room under the hood). Now they plug it into a computer and it tells them what to change. Kind of take it out of the hands of the weekend mechanic. But the older I get, they less I do myself and more I pay others to do. So with a lot I will forgo the ease of repair for the daily convenience modern tech offers. I just know I will pay for it in the long run.
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4 more days.. the wait is killing me :-X :-X :-X
3 days and there is no news of any kind, no excitement, no unveiling events announced, no press releases since October, nothing posted on dealer websites, no excitement on Google or Facebonk. I was anxious to go out and watch it happen on Monday. Will dealers have anything to show? Very disappointed already. Are they about to miss the schedule, or merely preannounce to some press people? Fizzle. :(
I am really surprised that there has not been any more "teasers" from Zero or leaks from the press. ??? If the bikes are not already in the distribution pipeline (which I am pretty sure is not happening) then everyone that wants one will be doing the usual Zero-thing, placing a $1000 deposit with a Zero franchised dealer and sitting back and waiting for delivery.
Yeah.... I was really expecting a couple more hooks as well.... The good news, Christmas is almost here !!!!
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I would have bet money (and lost) they would have had one more teaser this week to lead up to Monday. I thought especially after Lightening dropped the news the Strike will be liquid cooled, Zero would hit us with a brand new hint to keep up the excitement. I am surprised it has been so quiet.
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I do various activities, including water sports. I can lock my gear and the ignition key in the top box and lock the box with a combination lock.
On those days I'd leave the fob at home and only use the key or put the fob in a shielded bag and water proof bag.
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Well being the internet detective that I am I saw on FB a picture of Zero's booth at the Swissmoto 2019 show and a platform for the SRF.
I'm not saying for sure they will bring it out by Sunday only that I wouldn't be surprised. ;)
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I well take cruise control over a fab any day.
+1,000,000,000,000
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I well take cruise control over a fab any day.
+1,000,000,000,000
Being from NYC, I almost never used cruise control on my bike so I am the totally opposite. Goes to show you different folks, different needs.
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I appreciate the cruise control on my K1200LT, where I'll do 200 -- 250 miles at a stretch on the highway between fill-ups. For the kind of riding I do with my Zero? Complete waste of money. If I can do the same speed for more than five consecutive minutes around here, that is a LOT.
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On those days I'd leave the fob at home and only use the key or put the fob in a shielded bag and water proof bag.
So....putting the fob in a shielded bag, followed by a waterproof bag, then locking it into the trunk, followed by the reverse when you get back to the bike, isn't a problem. But getting a key out of your pocket before you put your gloves on is too inconvenient?
For me, it's a reach (at best) to say that "convenience" is worth the extra weight, complexity, expense and carrying another bulky item around in my pocket.
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On those days I'd leave the fob at home and only use the key or put the fob in a shielded bag and water proof bag.
So....putting the fob in a shielded bag, followed by a waterproof bag, then locking it into the trunk, followed by the reverse when you get back to the bike, isn't a problem. But getting a key out of your pocket before you put your gloves on is too inconvenient?
For me, it's a reach (at best) to say that "convenience" is worth the extra weight, complexity, expense and carrying another bulky item around in my pocket.
If you don't want to use the fob, then leave it at home in your sock drawer.
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I well take cruise control over a fab any day.
I would take a simple throttle hold over a cruise control on any motorcycle on any day.
But in cars, espcally EV's, I like both the cruise control as well as the FOB.
-Don- Reno, NV
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If you don't want to use the fob, then leave it at home in your sock drawer.
We're straying off topic here, but I think some of us are talking about different things. If I can leave the fob at home and only use the key, that's just fine with me. On my wife's minivan, there is no traditional key at all. I once had to run to a drug store to buy a new battery because the remote died when we were away from home. I can take a metal key 100 feet below the surface of the water or run over it with a truck and it will still work. The fob is just another thing that can break. One of the things that I like about motorcycles is their simplicity compared to cars.
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39 mins ago : https://twitter.com/ZeroMC/status/1099039766614605824
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39 mins ago : https://twitter.com/ZeroMC/status/1099039766614605824
Two observations:
1) VERY COOL!
2) Haters gonna hate.
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39 mins ago : https://twitter.com/ZeroMC/status/1099039766614605824
So I'm a little confused with this teaser. I really don't know electric engines but is there any significance with the round part that has the tube on it the camera pans to. Seems like it is trying to show us something.
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Close up of the new ZF-10 motor showing that the cooling fins are now properly oriented in the direction of the motorcycle's travel for improved airflow. Probably because the new motor MIGHT run hotter...
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39 mins ago : https://twitter.com/ZeroMC/status/1099039766614605824
That wasn't much of a teaser, considering that February 25 is so near. ???
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39 mins ago : https://twitter.com/ZeroMC/status/1099039766614605824
That wasn't much of a teaser, considering that February 25 is so near. ???
Tomorrow they may give us a close up of the foot peg. :o
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4 more days.. the wait is killing me :-X :-X :-X
3 days and there is no news of any kind, no excitement, no unveiling events announced, no press releases since October, nothing posted on dealer websites, no excitement on Google or Facebonk. I was anxious to go out and watch it happen on Monday. Will dealers have anything to show? Very disappointed already. Are they about to miss the schedule, or merely preannounce to some press people? Fizzle. :(
So I am one of us who is chewing at the bit for any information also. I never wish a weekend goes fast but I may do it this time. I read somewhere that the dealers will be meeting today. i am guessing they will get the first reveal. Not sure how tight lipped they are but I would hope some info leaks. I will guess no press will do anything until Monday being we are so close to all the facts. There are a lot of things I am hoping this bike is. I know it won't meet all my hopes but if it meets most, this may be my first electric motorcycle. Saying that, here is some things I hope the bike isn't.
Over $22K. And that is total (not starting at or base model). I can see it being around $20 being they would have to make it more expensive then the 2019 SR or why even have the SR. If it is over $22K, then it is a non starter in my book. It is getting too expensive and then I will have to chose if I will get a 2019 model or skip the electric bike all together until the prices become comparable with the ICE bikes.
Announced Monday released at the the end of the riding season. I mean come on Harley, how can you announce a bike and take pre-orders in January to ships in August. I never heard something so stupid (well maybe $39K for your first electric bike comes close). If Zero announces it, they should have models ready to ship. They should get demos into the dealerships before the spring. If I waited this long to find out they are just gearing up for production, I may jump ship.
Lastly and it is not a decision killer but a strong consideration, they change the on-board charging system. If reading on here is any indication of the poor quality of the on-board charger, I can't believe they didn't change brands already. I read something like a possible 40% failure rate. I mean this bike is battery, engine and charger. If they really screw up one of these, it doesn't bode well for the company.
I hope Monday is worth the wait.
Gary, I think your expectations are completely unrealistic. You are thinking of Zero like you would of one of the established volume ICE motorcycle makers.
They're not, they're a tiny manufacturer one step up from a startup. There's no way they can fund advance production of a large number of bikes before being able to gauge the actual order volumes, and possibly not even then. They'll probably have made a few dozen bikes now for press demos, maybe some more for a rolling demo tour, and for any actual deliveries you'll likely have to wait until November-December at least.
Don't know what the starting prices will be like, but if there are significant improvements (and it's already clear there are: New frame, motor and high-end details), you can bet that it'll start quite a few $K above the current SR at the low end, and the upgrades (larger battery, charge tank etc.) are not going to be cheaper than they are for current models.
As for jumping ship, there's basically no competition to Zero at their current price bracket at all. The LiveWire's price is stratospheric, and they'll be competing with the Energica Eva bike-wise, but not otherwise -- Energica has a tiny presence at this point. Even so, the Eva is now $22K after a radical price reduction, and with a sub-12kWh battery.
Also just FYI:
Outside the USA, the common situation is that you can't buy any new vehicle, car or bike, on the spot. The vehicle importer maintains showrooms & demo fleets, but they have zero inventory. No such thing as a dealership as you're familiar with it in the US. You always buy a new vehicle from the importer, and the process is signing a contract at the showroom with actual delivery of the physical vehicle you haven't seen yet weeks or months later. Folks in Europe are used to this, so Zero won't be at a disadvantage working this way.
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No news? A teaser has been leaked that shows some fins on the motor, Fins! I'm getting all tingly!
Or they could make a moto that would be practical for more than short commutes, 20 minutes on a track or even less in the dirt. Maybe offer a fairing option that would increase range and comfort. And offer an upright rider position. You know, things that many moto riders demand and ICE motos have offered for decades.
Just kidding, it's about the fins and the tingle.
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Wavelet, I do hope you are wrong on some of your points below but you may be right. As for waiting periods, Americans must not be as patient as you guys overseas. Most motorcycles and cars are brought "instantly" off the lot. Not many order bikes or cars these days. If they do, it is a matter of weeks for delivery not months (Tesla is the exception). I know it is different with electric bikes but Zero is not a custom bike manufacturer either. If they are going to be delivering in November or December as you say, they should have just released it as a 2020 model.
As for price, yes I fear you may be right. A electric bike over the $22-$25K range will be a very limited release. The general demographic that bike manufacturers are targeting today are young city commuters. These riders do not want to spend that much money. And the old time bikers who have that type of money to spend are generally not looking at Zero. So yes if Zero decides to go to the premium priced bike they will have a very limited release a lot like Harley Davidson is realizing.
And when I say jumping ship, I mean deciding to either get a 2019 model or realize that electric bikes still need a few more years of advancement until they can compare financially to ICE bikes.
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39 mins ago : https://twitter.com/ZeroMC/status/1099039766614605824
So I'm a little confused with this teaser. I really don't know electric engines but is there any significance with the round part that has the tube on it the camera pans to. Seems like it is trying to show us something.
Rear brake master cylinder reservoir?
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39 mins ago : https://twitter.com/ZeroMC/status/1099039766614605824
So I'm a little confused with this teaser. I really don't know electric engines but is there any significance with the round part that has the tube on it the camera pans to. Seems like it is trying to show us something.
Rear brake master cylinder reservoir?
That's what I thought.... Very hard to tell....
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Guys it's just a rear brake reservoir 100%
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I can take a metal key 100 feet below the surface of the water or run over it with a truck and it will still work. The fob is just another thing that can break. One of the things that I like about motorcycles is their simplicity compared to cars.
While I understand this mentality I think modern keys are slightly more complicated. Most of them are chipped now. On my Honda Pilot, the programming between the chip and the car got messed up somehow about a decade after purchase, couldn't drive the car until we paid to have the keys reprogrammed.
I keep a spare battery for my fob accessible in my volt. Though it does have a key ignition to start the car if the fob fails. I think having both is the best solution, convenience with a backup.
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Guys it's just a rear brake reservoir 100%
It's the Oscillation Overthruster.
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Guys it's just a rear brake reservoir 100%
It's the Oscillation Overthruster.
Ah man. Now I know it will be very expensive with one of those. ;)
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Read a good number of comments and agree with a good number of them. Here's my 2-cents no one asked for:
Re: no one beats them in their price range. An Energica Eva is $2k more than an SR with ChargeTank and less than $1k more than an SR with PowerTank. The PowerTank model them becomes $2k more expensive than the Energica to add after market Level 2 (something that should be standard on all EVs) that still does not match the DC charge time on the Energica.
I have had numerous and repeatable issues with the SR battery getting too hot to charge after light touring/prolonged highway use on hot southern summer days. If the new platform still has a sealed battery, they cannot be called a technology leader.
They are late to the traction, cruise, and advanced ABS games. Let's hope they have studied the others and improved or at least matched their abilities.
If commuting and light touring is your game, Energica is already ahead here. I know not everyone has a widespread deployment of CCS, but that's not going to be the case in at most 2-years time. Two coast to coast CCS routes will be in full operation by July 1, or did we all forget about Electrify America? DC is a necessity these days, anything sold without it is already outdated off the lot.
And please baby Zeus let the SR/F have Level 2 standard on it... HD was stupid (or it may be a nickel and dime accessory option) to omit it on LiveWire.
These are my opinions, I'm sure many will disagree.
Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
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kcfoxie good points and anyone who has at least rode an electric motorcycle and all who own them have very valid if sometimes different opinions.
One thing though from their website, an EVA base model is listed for $21,650 and a Zero SR wPT is like $19,390. Dealer pricing will vary but that's the list.
I wish there were more of both out there and we could get some good natured side by side videos.
A 150 mile ride/safe race to see who gets there first would be fun, DC charging vs more battery on a lighter bike.
A lot of people think the SRF is aimed at the Livewire but to me it's always been the Eva.
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Electric mobility is not yet ready for long distances if you don't want to leave your comfort zone yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F__GtOYn9y4
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Zero leaks over the weekend??
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Is it the 25th yet !!!! Did I miss it ????
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Is it the 25th yet !!!! Did I miss it ????
It is still the 24th in Scotts Valley, California. Come back in about 12, or more, hours. ;)
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25th in Australia. No news here yet!
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I watched a few Swiss Moto 2019 videos and I saw the Zero area at the bottom of the escalator but the guy doing the video didn't go over there. :(
All well sometime tomorrow.
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25th in Australia. No news here yet!
I think they go by PST! So you will have to wait until the 26th for the news.
BTW, welcome to the forum.
-Don- Reno, NV
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damn....the anticipation. It's like Christmas morning when I was 10 and had to wait until my parents get up to go down stairs >:(
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It is now 7am PST on the 25th of February, 2019. I wonder when the Zero marketing staff arrives at work?
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Maybe offer a fairing option that would increase range and comfort. And offer an upright rider position. You know, things that many moto riders demand and ICE motos have offered for decades.
As much as I want this to happen, the teased outline does not support this.
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It is now 7am PST on the 25th of February, 2019. I wonder when the Zero marketing staff arrives at work?
7:27 here in Las Vegas... anxiously awaiting news...
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It is now 7am PST on the 25th of February, 2019. I wonder when the Zero marketing staff arrives at work?
It is a little ludicrous that they have been teasing the SR/F for months now and no where can you find what time they are going to reveal it. I’m getting a little tired of it. Just show the thing already.
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It is now 7am PST on the 25th of February, 2019. I wonder when the Zero marketing staff arrives at work?
Open-open-open.......
https://youtu.be/ax0YiupLS9s
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So is the only difference between the 2 (premium/standard), the onboard charger? Looks Badass!! Gotta save up$$
Oh, I see the premium gets a fly screen, heated grips and aluminum bar ends.
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110HP and 140Ft/lbs of torque!! :o :o
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Yeah it's up on the webpage.
140 lbs ft of torque ;D
124 MPH
6kw charging standard with a 12kw option (j1772 plug only)
Price of around 20k for premium and 18k for standard so aimed at Eva.
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YAY! cruise-control
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Definitely on the sporty side, I appreciate the high spec suspension and performance, maybe a tad too much on the sport side but I have enough sport bike left in me to try one. Wonder how limited they're gonna be?
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https://www.wired.com/story/zero-srf-electric-motorcycle-photos-specs-design/
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I'm not too crazy about the color choices. Black should always be an option.
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Bike looks great. The one thing I do not see is a release date though somehwhere on site it si listed as a 2020 SR/F. So I am guessing not soon.
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Looks like the rear wheel is wider? Im assuming this should give it better grip when launching it? I lose traction alot on my SR if i try to take off at full power.
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Looks like the rear wheel is wider? Im assuming this should give it better grip when launching it? I lose traction alot on my SR if i try to take off at full power.
I think it has a 180 rear tire, I'm guess here but should be around 5-5.5"
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Pirelli Diablo Rosso III 180/55-17
Pirelli Diablo Rosso III 120/70-17
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Bigger controller (900 amps), new engine (75-10, 110 hp), faster charging time (4.5 hours standard, can be 1.3 hours for 95% charge with a fast charger).
For the rest, no revolution. I am now waiting for the 2020 range to see how the rest of the line moves. This might stop the sales - i don't know who would buy a new model when you expect 2020 models to take some of the additions they did on the SRF....
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That charge port hatch concerns me... water dish anyone
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I was just looking at the specs here. (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-srf/) Is the only big advantage the availability of the one hour charging?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Max speed is much higher - 120 mph / 200 kmh max.
0-60 should be around 2.8 seconds with a 60 kg driver : https://www.cognitoforms.com/Non81/_060TimesCalculator
and 3 seconds with a 80 kg rider.
(Edited thanks to promotech for finding a mistake in the parameters)
(Params : 190 Nm torque / 280 kg total weight / 31.5 cm wheel radius / 4.5 gear ratio)
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The SR/F microsite is a little unintuitive. You can navigate down to subsections below each details page - I missed this at first.
New control systems are a very good plus. Traction control, cornering and straight-line ABS.
Cell connectivity built-in and LED headlights are fitting the Zero and its pricepoint.
I'm not sure how I feel about the charging options. High-power AC charging is a bit of a crapshoot, as Diginow riders know well. I assume the 12 kW option will have two J1772 inputs - presumably serious tourers will carry Y adapters to charge from a single high-power J1772 or Tesla HPWC supply.
Zero also has dropped the standard IEC connector for 120V charging. 120V charging now requires a portable EVSE, included with purchase.
No CCS compatibility is unfortunate. 900 amp controller means that Zero continues with the 116 V battery system. High-power AC charging may still end up being the best option in the real world until we have bikes that can do 150+ miles on the highway.
I wonder if we'll see the Zero S and SR lines merge at some point, perhaps at a $15k price point. The $16495 Zero SR just seems too close to the $18995 standard SR/F, especially considering the standard SR/F has a 3 kW charger built-in. There is still room for a smaller, lighter bike with less power - just not with the price points this close.
The timing for the announcement is curious - they're calling it a 2020 model, but if they were going to ship next year surely they would have held off on announcing the bike to avoid the Osborne effect. I hope they can ship the SR/F by this riding season in the US - seems likely, since they indicate the Power Tank option will be coming later this fall. Not clear if the Power Tank precludes the second 6 kW rapid charger.
I was just looking at the specs here. (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-srf/) Is the only big advantage the availability of the one hour charging?
-Don- Reno, NV
- 3 & 6 kW standard, 9 & 12 kW option
- LED headlight
- always-on cell connectivity and GPS
- significantly more powerful (60% power, 20% torque, 20% higher top speeds)
- dual front brakes
- better battery cooling
- improved control system, cornering ABS, traction control
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Bike looks great. The one thing I do not see is a release date though somehwhere on site it si listed as a 2020 SR/F. So I am guessing not soon.
Email says "SR/F ships to dealers this spring".
Power tank options comes this fall.
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Agree - personnaly i'm not interested in a bike like this unless range is 250 km (then you can ride 3hours, charge at lunch, and ride further). I hope the 2020 FXS will have the new engine and even more torque - supermoto is really what I need in the city.
The SR/F microsite is a little unintuitive. You can navigate down to subsections below each details page - I missed this at first.
New control systems are a very good plus. Traction control, cornering and straight-line ABS.
Cell connectivity built-in and LED headlights are fitting the Zero and its pricepoint.
I'm not sure how I feel about the charging options. High-power AC charging is a bit of a crapshoot, as Diginow riders know well. I assume the 12 kW option will have two J1772 inputs - presumably serious tourers will carry Y adapters to charge from a single high-power J1772 or Tesla HPWC supply.
Zero also has dropped the standard IEC connector for 120V charging. 120V charging now requires a portable EVSE, included with purchase.
No CCS compatibility is unfortunate. 900 amp controller means that Zero continues with the 116 V battery system. High-power AC charging may still end up being the best option in the real world until we have bikes that can do 150+ miles on the highway.
I wonder if we'll see the Zero S and SR lines merge at some point, perhaps at a $15k price point. The $16495 Zero SR just seems too close to the $18995 standard SR/F, especially considering the standard SR/F has a 3 kW charger built-in. There is still room for a smaller, lighter bike with less power - just not with the price points this close.
The timing for the announcement is curious - they're calling it a 2020 model, but if they were going to ship next year surely they would have held off on announcing the bike to avoid the Osborne effect. I hope they can ship the SR/F by this riding season in the US - seems likely, since they indicate the Power Tank option will be coming later this fall. Not clear if the Power Tank precludes the second 6 kW rapid charger.
I was just looking at the specs here. (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-srf/) Is the only big advantage the availability of the one hour charging?
-Don- Reno, NV
- 3 & 6 kW standard, 9 & 12 kW option
- LED headlight
- always-on cell connectivity and GPS
- significantly more powerful (60% power, 20% torque, 20% higher top speeds)
- dual front brakes
- better battery cooling
- improved control system, cornering ABS, traction control
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Max speed is much higher - 120 mph / 200 kmh max.
0-60 should be around 3.8 seconds with a 60 kg driver : https://www.cognitoforms.com/Non81/_060TimesCalculator
(Params : 190 Nm torque / 280 kg total weight / 43.18 wheel radius / 4.5 gear ratio)
Tire is about 31.5 cm radius.
The calculator puts a 60 kg rider at 2.82s 0-60, vs ~3s 0-60 for the SR. Seems about right, the SR/F torque will be offset by additional bike mass.
Where the SR/F will shine is highway acceleration (taper starting well after 70 mph) and riding two-up. The Standard SR/F is rated at a maximum 515 pounds carrying capacity, vs only 361 pounds for the SR.
With both bikes at 164 kg of riders and gear (SR weight limit), the difference is 3.85s SR/F vs 4.21s SR.
Edit: both the SR and SR/F are torque-limited up to their peak power point. For the SR this occurs at ~3200 rpm or 53 mph. For the SR/F this occurs at ~4100 rpm or about 68 mph.
At 70 mph, if you crack the throttle open on both bikes, the SR/F is going to accelerate at least 60% harder, considering drag.
At 90 mph, the SR/F has probably twice as much power available.
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The ground clearance seems missing from the full specs. I hope the bottom is strong enough for a bump or skid. It is almost hitting that dry lake bed terrain in the moving background on the Zero site. I wonder if they chose the frame per second rate on purpose to make the wheels look like going backward slowly.
I also followed the link for the 2020 Warranty and there is no such thing as a Demonstrator with zero miles, there is a thread relating to this lately.
So how many HP to push it 110mph sustained. 140 HP will get you 124 mph max.
I also note local shipping and PDI will be extra. Does local mean from some local distribution hub? Does this mean other fees like conveyance are not to be expected? PDI is pre delivery inspection often dealer prep from my internet search.
Street bikes do not have center stands lately do they?
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Here is a review of the SR/F by Motorcycle.com:
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/exclusive-2019-zero-sr-f-review-first-ride.html
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With the SR/F premium price at $20,995.00 and the Energica Eva 107 at $21,665.00 I don't see the SR/F being able to compete with the Eva 107. After all these years Zero still doesn't get DCFC. The Eva 107 has more power and 20-30 minute charging. Great styling though.
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I was just looking at the specs here. (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-srf/) Is the only big advantage the availability of the one hour charging?
-Don- Reno, NV
They claim the stability control is "best in class".
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With the SR/F premium price at $20,995.00 and the Energica Eva 107 at $21,665.00 I don't see the SR/F being able to compete with the Eva 107. After all these years Zero still doesn't get DCFC. The Eva 107 has more power and 20-30 minute charging. Great styling though.
I disagree, The SRF is much mroe compelling to me than an EVA. Everything else equal, i would take a 6kw L2 charge over DC fast charging. DC will only become more relevant when range increases and the network of DC chargers grows more.
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What is a stability control ? Does it exist elsewhere ?
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David S,
I don't understand how slower charging is more appealing. I have a Zero SR with dual Elcons and can charge at 6.3kW. Also have a Eva 107. Have done multi day trips on both. 1 1/2 hour charging with the Zero compared to 30-40 minutes with the Eva. Even short trips for me to my Zero/Energica dealer. Using CCS charging cuts down on how much time the trip takes with the Eva compared to making the same trip with the Zero. 300+ miles a day with the Eva isn't a big deal. Have done that with my SR but it takes many hours more all because of slower charging. Vinny
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Here is a review of the SR/F by Motorcycle.com:
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/exclusive-2019-zero-sr-f-review-first-ride.html
That's a really informative article. Lots of great little details.
- dual USB ports in the trunk
- cruise control on the right grip
- 12V lithium ion battery to power the always-on bike computer and connectivity instead of just DC/DC previously
- as with the S line, you can add either a charge tank or the power tank
With the SR/F premium price at $20,995.00 and the Energica Eva 107 at $21,665.00 I don't see the SR/F being able to compete with the Eva 107. After all these years Zero still doesn't get DCFC. The Eva 107 has more power and 20-30 minute charging. Great styling though.
Maybe. It's good to have both options.
The Zero has more range, dramatically so with the Power Tank. For shorter rides - say 100 to 150 miles highway, 150 to 200 mile back roads - the Zero's high-power L2 and range advantage may make for a faster trip than hunting CCS chargers.
CCS is growing pretty quickly however, and the charging landscape may look rather different in 2-3 years. High power L2 instead of CCS is a stopgap solution.
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David S,
I don't understand how slower charging is more appealing. I have a Zero SR with dual Elcons and can charge at 6.3kW. Also have a Eva 107. Have done multi day trips on both. 1 1/2 hour charging with the Zero compared to 30-40 minutes with the Eva. Even short trips for me to my Zero/Energica dealer. Using CCS charging cuts down on how much time the trip takes with the Eva compared to making the same trip with the Zero. 300+ miles a day with the Eva isn't a big deal. Have done that with my SR but it takes many hours more all because of slower charging. Vinny
To me, Its a matter of practicality and everyday use. There are much more L2 chargers available, and almost all of them free. DC chargers are much less common and you have to pay for them. Also, in my uses, I am not traveling 300+ miles in a day, so don't have a need for extremely fast charging, making the more common, and free L2 chargers more convenient. This is why i said when range goes up, and more DC fast chargers are available, it would be more important then, as you would gain the ability to tour. Obviously if you are already doing a lot of long distance traveling, then i can see you preferring DC charging.
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Do they use Diginow chargers ... ? They are on top of the battery ...
Giacomo
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So nothing particularly earth shattering IMO. A bigger motor, (ostensibly) upgraded electronics all round, incremental (and nice) touches like LED lighting and such.
For me, the things I'm happiest to see are 1) the motor upgrade, 2) the price didn't get bumped by too much, and 3) the motor upgrade. The other updates are all welcome too, especially if they lead to better reliability. I'd especially welcome the cruise control.
My biggest disappointment is that the battery capacity hasn't been bumped. Level 3 charging would be nice too, but I understand the logic on holding off until the infrastructure is better developed. I'm not thrilled that the weight has crept up to 500 pounds for a fairly small bike, but that's still not terribly heavy.
Overall, I think it's a good premium bike for Zero. I do wonder what it means for the future of the SR, though.
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I see that Zero is calling the SR/F a 2020 model, while the Motorcycle.com article claims it is a 2019 model. My guess is that calling it a 2020 bike will be the official model year. That is what BMW tends to do at times. As an example, my 2016 BMW R1200RS was bought by me in May 2015. When introducing a brand new chassis, it appears to be typical for vehicle manufacturers to sometimes jump a year into the future. ;)
My guess is that the new SR/F platform will start to supersede the old 2013-on chassis when future models are introduced. It certainly seems like a worthwhile upgrade to the previous chassis, although some of the premium components of the SR/F will likely have to be cut back to keep the price of future models under control.
If you ask me, the SR/F really takes the wind out of the LiveWire's sales. $10K less and it appears to have more premium features. In particular, I do like those Bosch traction control, cornering ABS and cruse control features. Plus, the smart phone system seems pretty complete - although likely more than I could master. ::) I must say that I am very impressed with the new model. But it is definitely overkill for my utility and transportation usage.
I also like that it's weight is about 100 pounds less than the Energica models. For me, that would be a big plus.
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Do they use Diginow chargers ... ? They are on top of the battery ...
Whatever chassis they're using per 3kW unit looks thinner than the HK-J factory output that DigiNow uses/adopted.
They're probably built differently, as well, for EMI/EMC regulations specific to the OEM vs aftermarket.
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I also like that it's weight is about 100 pounds less than the Energica models. For me, that would be a big plus.
Looks like the rear wheel is wider than the one on my '17 SR, as well. And faster L2 charging is great (about damn time).
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I also found it interesting that in the Motorcycle.com article there was mention of the drive belt being under a higher tension (than previously, I assume). ??? You would think that too high a belt tension would place a higher stress on the motor output and wheel bearings. I thought that my 2018 belt tension was already pretty high. Any higher and you could play a tune on it. ::)
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Overall, I'm happy with the bike. The new motor and stability control features are awesome and I'm happy they kept the price to a relatively small premium over the SR. I wish the weight didn't creep up as high as it did though. I know I'm in the minority, but I can count the times I've charged my electric bikes at places other than my garage on one hand, therefore, I'd much prefer being able to remove all the heavy on-board charging equipment in order to have a 450 pound bike. It'd be awesome to me if the Zero bikes had docking station like ports for their on-board chargers, especially for the FX and FXS, but I understand the compromises and that everyone wants onboard charging and more range on the go.
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Someone 'shopped this image together in the FB group. Thought I'd share here!
Just gotta point out that the photoshopped pic on page 14 was pretty good!
I'm excited for the bike, even more to ride one. I think it looks great, and am a big fan of the green color. Curious what their 2020 lineup will be.
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Has anyone seen/heard/read anything in regards to when these will be hitting dealerships?
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I see that Zero is calling the SR/F a 2020 model, while the Motorcycle.com article claims it is a 2019 model.
Could be both at the same time.
For an example, my 2013 Triumph Trophy. It's a 2013 model in the USA but if same bike bought on the same day as I did, but in the UK, it will be a 2012 model. There is no such thing as buying a new 2013 model in 2012 in England. Not even if the date is the 31th of December as they go by the year purchased, not what we call the model year in the USA.
There is no 2012 TTSE in the USA. But there is in England of the exact same model year of a 2013 in the USA.
There are other confusing things like this also. My 1984 Venture must be registered as a 1983. But it is a 1984 model and most 1983 parts for this bike will not fit. The frame date on this bike is 9/83, but is a 1984 model. But they had a special tax on bikes built in 1984. My 1984 model was NOT subject to this tax because it was built in 1983. Therefore, my 1984 model had to be registered as a 1983. This model is often called by owners the "1983 and a half Yamaha Venture."
-Don- Reno, NV
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Has anyone seen/heard/read anything in regards to when these will be hitting dealerships?
Electrek wrote "Deliveries of the SR/F will begin in April and the bike has already entered full production."
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> ... And faster L2 charging is great (about damn time). ...
Um, 3000 watts standard, and 6000 watts upgrade, same as 2018 chargetank.
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Overall, I like it.
I'll probably wait till the bigger battery version is available and I can line up financing.
If the feds would get e-motorcycle incentives for 2019 passed, that would help swing it.
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> ... And faster L2 charging is great (about damn time). ...
Um, 3000 watts standard, and 6000 watts upgrade, same as 2018 chargetank.
The premium is 6KW + 6KW upgrade though, so that's 12KW.
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The premium is 6KW + 6KW upgrade though, so that's 12KW.
To be delivered into a single J1772 inlet it appears.
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No one noticed the controller is under the battery box. The charger/s are on top as has been noted.
10 custom modes, I would only need 2 max, wet and dry, with dry maxed out on everything.
For me, keeping the storage area is a plus, but can still have 6kw charging. That's great work by zero.
The bike is heavier but they say the heavy items are down low so maybe it doesn't feel heavy?
All in all, it seems zero has addressed many things raised on the forum except one - a faring.
Having a 12V battery gives the "always on" power that some accessories need, like the big discussion on keyless fobs.
If you are not happy with what zero have done then you are just too hard to please.
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I forgot to mention the top speed, I have never had my SR to top speed so 164 km/h or 200 km/h makes no difference to me. But I often get the throttle twist maxed out so extra torque is great.
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It is nice. But to have to wait tell fall for a power tank that is probably 3.6 kWh is a no go for me. I well stick with my 19 SR with power tank.
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All in all I think that Zero did very well.... BUT why does the battery pack have to look like a Borg cube !!!! Gasoline fits into very nice shapes other than squares, so can battery cells.... Aero should be important on any EV.... Last gripe, hate the squirrel catcher fender, flavor of the month....
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Seems like a slam dunk to me. Compared to the competition the specs for pricing is fine.
Being able to charge in an hour with level 2 charging is even better than l3 in my eyes. Only 15 minutes longer than the Harley level 3 but you can actually use level 2 stations at full power. Much better solution.
As always, would've liked to see more range, but we'll just keep seeing incremental upgrades in range every year. Zero already has much better range than the competition at a lower price point so complaining about range seems kinda silly at this point.
The whole package looks great. All the right upgrades in a great looking modern redesign. Really looks like it's own bike where the earlier zeroes looked more like cheap parts from other bikes cobbled together.
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I gotta say I'm saddened at the lack of DC fast charging, but very impressed with everything else. Traction control with different modes, an actual 12v battery, constantly connected over the internet with the ability to monitor and control it through your phone app, dual front disc brakes, proper air flow for cooling the motor and controller. There are some huge changes here and nothing but improvements all around.
I have been holding out for the right bike with DC charging, but this one is extremely tempting.
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Gosh, I have so much to say. Basically Zero outdid my wildest expectations in both features and price. They listened and checked off a great number of wish-list items. Faster charge, TC, charging schedules, SOC limits, custom modes, LED headlights, dual rotors, >100hp, >100mph, design for cooling, charge station finder, etc. And with real availability in Spring. Reporting of lean angle? Really, how?
I never imagined they'd have always-on cellular like the much more expensive Livewire. And the big color display to go with it. Since there's GPS and cellular, there could be NAV, and if not already, that could be added via software updates. Hopefully the clock sets itself! Remote diag saving dealer trips. Now if it just had the keyless fob, it would round out like a Tesla (but with the 12V battery it should be fairly easy to add for $25)!
Royal red happens to be my favorite color, same as both my car and truck. But I'll probably want the green-ish color for a change. And the Premium for sure, with the bigger charger, fly screen, and heated grips. I sort of expect that the first model year will not be entirely trouble-free, but my dealer SJ BMW was great about things last time around. I predict most of the issues will be in the software and fixed through updates.
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Seems a good model to tell the market that they can beat Harley. But at that price with such a limited range, as well as the risk associated with a new bike with a limited used market (ie you buy but can't resell) how many models will they sell ? Maybe not so many...
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Apparently it wheelies!
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Just freaking awesome!!! I'll definitely be the 1st inline when they show up at dealers for a test ride
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I have access to a wall outlet in the garage at work.
Does the SR/F charge from this directly or do I need an adapter to go to the J1772?
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Hey I was pretty close with what I surmised back in January. Although the extra battery capacity is an option. Yay me
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I have access to a wall outlet in the garage at work.
Does the SR/F charge from this directly or do I need an adapter to go to the J1772?
It needs an adapter but they give you one when you buy the bike.
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I guess we now wait on news from Lightning, but I'm expecting their premium Strike, which will be released first, will have significantly higher specs than the SR/F but will come with a significantly higher price as well. The base model, which we don't have any idea on when will be made, will clearly be much cheaper than the SR/F but what will its specifications be? At $12,998 it may undercut the Zero SR significantly, but I doubt its specs will match the SR/F. In the end, the Strike and SR/F may not end up as being true competitors at all as the SR/F might slide in right between the Strike base and the premium. The different options/levels that Lightning offers between the base and the premium, if any, could be interesting.
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> .... BUT why does the battery pack have to look like a Borg cube !!!! Gasoline fits into very nice shapes other than squares, so can battery cells....
Haha, cylindrical cells might be made into hexagonal or triangular packs nicely (storm einhoven, anybody?) but flat rectangular cells with maximum density, not so much.
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I guess we now wait on news from Lightning, but I'm expecting their premium Strike, which will be released first, will have significantly higher specs than the SR/F but will come with a significantly higher price as well. The base model, which we don't have any idea on when will be made, will clearly be much cheaper than the SR/F but what will its specifications be? At $12,998 it may undercut the Zero SR significantly, but I doubt its specs will match the SR/F. In the end, the Strike and SR/F may not end up as being true competitors at all as the SR/F might slide in right between the Strike base and the premium. The different options/levels that Lightning offers between the base and the premium, if any, could be interesting.
I would be extremely surprised if the base model outperforms an SR, definitely not an SRF. I dont see any chance a manufacturer with less volume than zero able to produce bikes at a better performance per dollar ratio.
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Being able to charge in an hour with level 2 charging is even better than l3 in my eyes. Only 15 minutes longer than the Harley level 3 but you can actually use level 2 stations at full power. Much better solution.
The Zero group on facebook is suggesting that the bike will have a single inlet, even if configured with the additional 6 kW charger. You will probably need a single EVSE that can supply 48 amps to see full benefit from the top-end 12 kW charge rate.
HD Livewire only lists a city range of 110 miles and a DC fast charging speed of 192 miles per hour. This means a 0-80% charge in < 30 minutes.
With the Charge Tank, the Zero SRF can charge 0-95% in 1.3 hours. This is an effective charge rate of 118 miles per hour - HD is 63% faster - and that's despite a significant efficiency gap for the HD (110 miles vs 161 miles from similar-sized batteries).
The efficiency gap is probably closer at state highway and interstate speeds - at 70 mph I guess the HD will land around 65 miles, vs 82 for Zero.
At interstate speeds, HD L3 vs Zero L2 is 113 miles per hour vs 60 miles per hour - HD L3 is almost twice as fast as Zero L2.
I'm not sure any of this really matters - very few people will be interested in touring at ~60 miles per leg, and the CCS infrastructure doesn't really support that usage model in most areas.
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At interstate speeds, HD L3 vs Zero L2 is 113 miles per hour vs 60 miles per hour - HD L3 is almost twice as fast as Zero L2.
I'm not sure any of this really matters - very few people will be interested in touring at ~60 miles per leg, and the CCS infrastructure doesn't really support that usage model in most areas.
Too bad one of these manufacturer's doesn't take Tesla up on their offer to take advantage of the Supercharger network. We'll be waiting many years to see if any other charging network will be comparable.
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I happy with everything Zero did. Bravo on the great improved styling, ect....
The battery fins look cool - good industrial design, but I'm skeptical of the function. I don't think they will do much on a hot day. I would like to see the testing that proves me wrong. How does it do on the track. I love my 2015 Zero on the race track, but it easily reaches its thermal limit and power is limited.
I was expecting at least a 1 kWh bump in standard battery. :(
CCS would be nice. It seems like a low hardware solution. CCS is mostly the connection and software, Right? - as long as the charger supports the system voltage.
A half fairing and windshield would be nice. At 70 MPH, wind sucks.
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I suspect that CCS support is a planned upgrade path later.
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At which minimum battery voltage is a safe function of CCS guaranteed?
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The lowest voltage that CCS will support is 200 volts so there is no chance Zero will be able to use it without completely upgrading their drive train.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
Zero had been looking at CHAdeMO and offered it back in 2013. It worked well with some systems such as EATON but not so well on others. I had one on order for many months before Zero gave up and canceled it.
The Energica Eva has a voltage range of 280-320 volts. Before tapering starts you can add 50% SOC in just under 14 minutes. Tapering starts at about 67% SOC. I am interested to see how the charging speeds of the LiveWire and Strike compare with Energica. I realize not everyone here is a fan of faster charging. But I believe the more trips that are practical on an electric motorcycle then the use of ICE will decrease. For trips that may require charging the ability to charge in 20-30 minutes instead of 1-2 hours can make the difference between taking the electric motorcycle or taking the ICE bike.
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What I suspect is that Zero would support 200V DC charging by reconfiguring the pack dynamically, with each long brick in series. Having a separate 12V battery supports powering the onboard computer systems while performing a relay toggle to safely disconnect and reconnect packs.
Or they may just have the wiggle room in the new platform design to switch to 200V on a future model, without the dynamic switching, but that would require a motor controller change, potentially.
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200 volts would need to be the minimum voltage of the discharged pack. The fully charged pack would need to be closer to 250 voltage to allow for voltage drop as SOC drops.
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I guess we now wait on news from Lightning, but I'm expecting their premium Strike, which will be released first, will have significantly higher specs than the SR/F but will come with a significantly higher price as well. The base model, which we don't have any idea on when will be made, will clearly be much cheaper than the SR/F but what will its specifications be? At $12,998 it may undercut the Zero SR significantly, but I doubt its specs will match the SR/F. In the end, the Strike and SR/F may not end up as being true competitors at all as the SR/F might slide in right between the Strike base and the premium. The different options/levels that Lightning offers between the base and the premium, if any, could be interesting.
I would be extremely surprised if the base model outperforms an SR, definitely not an SRF. I dont see any chance a manufacturer with less volume than zero able to produce bikes at a better performance per dollar ratio.
Unless the Lightning Strike is being subsided in some way during the introductory period. ??? I am pretty sure that the BMW C-Evolution is loosing money on every U.S. sale, considering that the same model is quite a bit more expensive in the EU. And then we have the 2017 Energicas, which were selling for around $17K last year, when they originally were selling for something in the $30K + range, when first introduced into the U.S. market, before dropping into the mid-to-low $20,000's.
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With all of the talk about how fast the SR/F is, I wonder how it is going to be dealt with by the insurance industry? I have the slowest Zero model (thanks to its weight of 452 pounds and base motor) and I am still charged more for just liability insurance than I pay for my much faster and heavier BMW RS.
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I am curious about how fast it will accelerate, as it's only 20% more torque. The 2019 SR has a 5:1 reduction whereas the SR/F has a 4.5:1 reduction which will lower the torque to the back wheel consuming some of that 20% extra. The change in 2017 to 2018 SR was 20% extra torque at the wheel and it was only just noticeable according to those that had ridden both.
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I am pretty sure that the BMW C-Evolution is loosing money on every U.S. sale,
There's no way. Aside from the fact that BMW has no reason to do a strategy like that those scooters are super expensive, they don't cost that much to make and ship and BMW is definitely making money on the ones sold here in USA. The battery is more expensive to build than the rest of the scooter and it probably costs them under $3K.
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I am curious about how fast it will accelerate, as it's only 20% more torque. The 2019 SR has a 5:1 reduction whereas the SR/F has a 4.5:1 reduction which will lower the torque to the back wheel consuming some of that 20% extra. The change in 2017 to 2018 SR was 20% extra torque at the wheel and it was only just noticeable according to those that had ridden both.
Correction, 190 nm as to 146 nm gives 30% more torque from the motor with 20% more at the wheel with the 4.5:1 reduction.
But then that's more than 40% more torque than my 2015 SR, that's got to make a big difference.
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I am curious about how fast it will accelerate, as it's only 20% more torque. The 2019 SR has a 5:1 reduction whereas the SR/F has a 4.5:1 reduction which will lower the torque to the back wheel consuming some of that 20% extra. The change in 2017 to 2018 SR was 20% extra torque at the wheel and it was only just noticeable according to those that had ridden both.
The 5:1 reduction is the 75-5 models. 2017-2019 SR all use 4.5:1 gearing, as does the SR/F.
2016 => 2017 gained 9% more torque at the motor and 4% more torque due to the higher gearing, so ~13% total.
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I am curious about how fast it will accelerate, as it's only 20% more torque. The 2019 SR has a 5:1 reduction whereas the SR/F has a 4.5:1 reduction which will lower the torque to the back wheel consuming some of that 20% extra. The change in 2017 to 2018 SR was 20% extra torque at the wheel and it was only just noticeable according to those that had ridden both.
The 5:1 reduction is the 75-5 models. 2017-2019 SR all use 4.5:1 gearing, as does the SR/F.
2016 => 2017 gained 9% more torque at the motor and 4% more torque due to the higher gearing, so ~13% total.
hmmm you are correct, it's 4.5:1, I must be getting old!
2015 SR has 132/30 that's about 4.4:1
So that means an extra 30% more torque at the wheel and more than 43% more than my 2015 SR
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So I am wondering, can a drive belt be changed without removing the swing arm?
The specs say it has large swing arm bearings, There is no close-up pic of the drive side of the motor. It could be possible to have the drive shaft go through the swing arm bearing putting the pully on the outside of the swing arm.
Does anyone know?
I have just discovered that you can rotate the pic on the first page of the site, I can see the drive pully, and it looks like it is on the outside of the swing arm but it is not a clear pic.
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Unless they have made a change from previous models, there is no way for a one piece belt to be changed without removing the swing arm
I believe that it would have to be a single sided swing arm like some of the sport bikes have. If the shaft of the motor is forward of the swing arm
then the belt has to go over it.
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I have seen someone here storing a spare belt that could be put in place without opening the arm when you need it. But you need to preposition the belt around the arm, and store it there/
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Basically the SR/F is simply an upgraded SR. Some nice upgraded components, and the price is in line with them & reasonable, but I'm not sure there's justification to call it a new platform so far.
The new bikes do have a 1000lbs GVWR compared to ~780 for the SR, but the curb weight is also much higher (I don't immediately see why -- it's 71lbs).
500lbs payload should be enough for a 1-up tourer/sport-tourer with fairing & full luggage set but not for 2-up (a BEV tourer/sports-tourer will need extra batteries, for a total of >24kWh IMO), but I didn't see any mention of that in Zero's PR.
The most disappointing for me is the lack of any battery system update (higher voltage and active cooling). Even my 2-stroke 150cc Vespa had forced-air cooling (-:
Since I'm sure Zero can't afford to do from-scratch model development every year, I'm afraid this means no actual sporty models or touring/sport-touring models in the next few years.
The consequence of no CCS support is also bad, IMO -- it's necessary for long-distance trips; while the US CCS charger network isn't as common in the US as it is in Europe yet, this is changing quickly. 6kW AC is of course fine for home charging for daily commutes, but even the 12kW AC of the Premium model isn't anywhere near enough to regain miles used up in 75mph motorway travel at a reasonable rate. An hour's charging will give you 70mi according to Zero's own numbers on the SR/F.
As I've written a few times in the past, a nice day ride for me means:
1) 100mi of motorway @ 70-75mph simply to reach the backroads,
2) 150-200mi of backroads in locations with no charging
3) Another 100mi of motorway to get back home.
3 charging sessions on that day ride (two 30min top-up sessions + a 60min one at lunch) is about the limit, in terms of time that can be spent charging.
That requires supporting an Energica-level 20kW at two of the stops.
If all someone wants to do is commute, an e-motorcycle is overkill.
I really don't get what H-D was blathering about in "reaching the young demographic who want urban transport" in the same PR that explained the Livewire.
For urban transport, if you're willing to consider non-enclosed and two-wheeled transport, a $1500 e-bicycle is all that needed. The real savings aren't just the purchase price, but the negligible upkeep. If there are no bike paths, or for longer suburban distances, electric scooters (Vespa type, not the tiny-wheeled stand-up abominations) are fine, and don't require the expensive frame & suspension or performance-oriented drivetrain of a motorcycle.
IOW, I think the market for e-motorcycles suitable for commuting only -- which is all Zeros are capable of at this point, the FX or expensive DIY user customization aside -- is very small, and I'm starting to think Zero doesn't get it.
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Unless they have made a change from previous models, there is no way for a one piece belt to be changed without removing the swing arm
I believe that it would have to be a single sided swing arm like some of the sport bikes have. If the shaft of the motor is forward of the swing arm
then the belt has to go over it.
But hey have changed everything to do with the frame. The swing arm has bearings at least 8cm on the inner diameter, and the front drive pulley seems to be on the outside of the swing arm, not the inside like previous models. It looks like the swing arm is mounted to the motor, not the frame. The motor is a stressed member, so where is the stress coming from? I reckon it's from the swing arm through the motor then into the frame.
The flange on the end of the motor I reckon the swing arm bearing goes around and the drive shaft comes out the center.
Notice how big the hole is in the swing arm pivot point.
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Basically the SR/F is simply an upgraded SR. Some nice upgraded components, and the price is in line with them & reasonable, but I'm not sure there's justification to call it a new platform so far.
The new bikes do have a 1000lbs GVWR compared to ~780 for the SR, but the curb weight is also much higher (I don't immediately see why -- it's 71lbs).
500lbs payload should be enough for a 1-up tourer/sport-tourer with fairing & full luggage set but not for 2-up (a BEV tourer/sports-tourer will need extra batteries, for a total of >24kWh IMO), but I didn't see any mention of that in Zero's PR.
The most disappointing for me is the lack of any battery system update (higher voltage and active cooling). Even my 2-stroke 150cc Vespa had forced-air cooling (-:
Since I'm sure Zero can't afford to do from-scratch model development every year, I'm afraid this means no actual sporty models or touring/sport-touring models in the next few years.
The consequence of no CCS support is also bad, IMO -- it's necessary for long-distance trips; while the US CCS charger network isn't as common in the US as it is in Europe yet, this is changing quickly. 6kW AC is of course fine for home charging for daily commutes, but even the 12kW AC of the Premium model isn't anywhere near enough to regain miles used up in 75mph motorway travel at a reasonable rate. An hour's charging will give you 70mi according to Zero's own numbers on the SR/F.
As I've written a few times in the past, a nice day ride for me means:
1) 100mi of motorway @ 70-75mph simply to reach the backroads,
2) 150-200mi of backroads in locations with no charging
3) Another 100mi of motorway to get back home.
3 charging sessions on that day ride (two 30min top-up sessions + a 60min one at lunch) is about the limit, in terms of time that can be spent charging.
That requires supporting an Energica-level 20kW at two of the stops.
If all someone wants to do is commute, an e-motorcycle is overkill.
I really don't get what H-D was blathering about in "reaching the young demographic who want urban transport" in the same PR that explained the Livewire.
For urban transport, if you're willing to consider non-enclosed and two-wheeled transport, a $1500 e-bicycle is all that needed. The real savings aren't just the purchase price, but the negligible upkeep. If there are no bike paths, or for longer suburban distances, electric scooters (Vespa type, not the tiny-wheeled stand-up abominations) are fine, and don't require the expensive frame & suspension or performance-oriented drivetrain of a motorcycle.
IOW, I think the market for e-motorcycles suitable for commuting only -- which is all Zeros are capable of at this point, the FX or expensive DIY user customization aside -- is very small, and I'm starting to think Zero doesn't get it.
Zero has outlasted all the other companies, they are the ones that get it the most. I use my SR for commuting and all round trips under 160 km in the suburbs.
I owned a scooter and I sold it to get the Zero because I never rode the scooter father than what a Zero can travel, Infact I have taken the Zero on loger trips than I did on the scooter.
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I have seen someone here storing a spare belt that could be put in place without opening the arm when you need it. But you need to preposition the belt around the arm, and store it there/
The SR/F is so different from previous models you can't draw comparisons.
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So I am wondering, can a drive belt be changed without removing the swing arm?
Those discussing this on Facebook are hopeful that the belt can be replaced without removing the swingarm. Detailed pics of the area show a path to get the belt out.
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Regarding the SR/F's extra weight: I bet that new motor is no lightweight. ;) And the chassis also looks more robust than the previous version and is likely heavier, too. So I am not surprised with the reported 500 pound weight - although adding my favorite accessory, a Power Tank, is certainly not going to help that number. ::) That is still considerably lighter than an Energica, with at least similar performance. It will be interesting to see how the SR/F compares to the Energica SS9 in a direct comparison road test. :)
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Basically the SR/F is simply an upgraded SR. Some nice upgraded components, and the price is in line with them & reasonable, but I'm not sure there's justification to call it a new platform so far.
IDK, there is so much different about the SR/F that it qualifies as a generational change.
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Basically the SR/F is simply an upgraded SR. Some nice upgraded components, and the price is in line with them & reasonable, but I'm not sure there's justification to call it a new platform so far.
IDK, there is so much different about the SR/F that it qualifies as a generational change.
Having owned three Zeros: a 2012, a 2014 and a 2018, I agree. ;)
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Basically the SR/F is simply an upgraded SR. Some nice upgraded components, and the price is in line with them & reasonable, but I'm not sure there's justification to call it a new platform so far.
The most disappointing for me is the lack of any battery system update (higher voltage and active cooling). Even my 2-stroke 150cc Vespa had forced-air cooling (-:
The consequence of no CCS support is also bad, IMO -- it's necessary for long-distance trips; while the US CCS charger network isn't as common in the US as it is in Europe yet, this is changing quickly. 6kW AC is of course fine for home charging for daily commutes, but even the 12kW AC of the Premium model isn't anywhere near enough to regain miles used up in 75mph motorway travel at a reasonable rate. An hour's charging will give you 70mi according to Zero's own numbers on the SR/F.
As I've written a few times in the past, a nice day ride for me means:
If all someone wants to do is commute, an e-motorcycle is overkill.
I really don't get what H-D was blathering about in "reaching the young demographic who want urban transport" in the same PR that explained the Livewire.
For urban transport, if you're willing to consider non-enclosed and two-wheeled transport, a $1500 e-bicycle is all that needed. The real savings aren't just the purchase price, but the negligible upkeep. If there are no bike paths, or for longer suburban distances, electric scooters (Vespa type, not the tiny-wheeled stand-up abominations) are fine, and don't require the expensive frame & suspension or performance-oriented drivetrain of a motorcycle.
IOW, I think the market for e-motorcycles suitable for commuting only -- which is all Zeros are capable of at this point, the FX or expensive DIY user customization aside -- is very small, and I'm starting to think Zero doesn't get it.
I hope you don’t mind but I edited some out of the quote being it was very long. Well I have to disagree with a lot of what you have here. First I think with a new frame, new motor, new swing arm, charger and electronics this is more than an upgraded SR. I mean one article quoted they kept the pegs and the turn signals the same. I think Zero shorted itself by not calling it a whole different designation. Yes it is a similar style to th SR but that is where the similarities end. It is like saying the SR and DSR should be called the same being one just has a higher suspension and some added assessories.
Secondly personally in the US Level 2 charging is MUCH more supported than Level 3. When I look at a map of each I can easily see it is probably a 50:1 ratio at least in the Northest. I know Europe is different but that is why European e-motorcycles have it standard. I think Zero needs to base decisions on their main consumer base which I believe is in the US. I know there are some places in the US that L3 is more available but that is the exception. Now in the future, yes L3 may be the standard but who knows. And hopefully if it does, there will be a L3 charge tank we can upgrade to.
Lastly in the big cities, people are using electric motorcycles to commute. Maybe a e-bike or scooter is good for the urban dweller who needs something easier than walking but is useless for the mass of people living in the suburbs or outskirts and commuting in each day. With HOV lanes allowing motorcycles and electric cars, I am seeing a big increase in these type of vehicles on the road. And the young people who are buying motorcycles these days are buying “naked†style motorcycles or sport bikes for commuting. The people who are into the cruisers and tourers are getting harder to find.
I also would love a bigger battery but I am guessing Zero has maximized what they can fit in a “normal†style bike with current batttery tech. Unless the frames got wider, higher, longer or totally redesigned to look nothing like it does now, they probably couldn’t fit much more. I know there will be the battery tank come fall for those who need a little more .
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Basically the SR/F is simply an upgraded SR. Some nice upgraded components, and the price is in line with them & reasonable, but I'm not sure there's justification to call it a new platform so far.
The engine and battery or battery enclosure are stressed members. At least I read that this alone should count as a new platform. I do not understand the part about control of regen with throttle turned past neutral needing a new platform but that may apply as well.
They still have the same basic business plan or basic design that being putting the motor at the swingarm pivot and relatively low voltage. Then offering extras be it chargers or additional power storage which most likely make the front end heavier. If they moved the motor and had a reduction gearing and more normal sized sprockets that would be more significantly a new platform.
As for a commuter bike I think most metropolitan areas have interstates that go through them and beltways for thru traffic. Isn't this the place at least some of the talk of lane splitting pertains to?
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I give the new bike two thumbs up with a few cautious reservations.
With only really the battery and a few other components being the same I'd say new platform.
Love the new motor and torque and speed upgrade. Love the new dash. Love the wider tires. I want to see the inside of the tank and how it opens as I hope they got a lot more use out of the space.
As for reservations:
The 12 volt battery. Time will tell with that one. How will it charge? How long will it last? I assume it will give the owner notice when it's getting low and needs to be changed. Long term winter storage with an old trickle charger?
The always on internet connection. Who is going to pay for it? Who are they going to share your riding stats aka speed, location with?
You'll need that j1772 plug to charge from a house outlet which may take up most of the new tank's space. Some have said a single inlet but I wonder if the new charge tank option, giving you 12kw, will have a second inlet with it.
Overall it looks like a great new bike and was happily surprised it came in at a reasonable price point for the tech.
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Overall it looks like a great new bike and was happily surprised it came in at a reasonable price point for the tech.
+1........kudos to Zero on the launch of their new SR/F. I think history will show that this marks a pivotal point in the evolution of electric motorcycles.
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Welcome to at least six years of Stone Age. The Flintstones send their greetings.
For the USA the motorcycle might be suitable, however, for
the EU market there will be a tube collapse :o
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Perhaps this bike will be attractive to some buyers, but as a long time Zero DS owner I wouldn't buy one. Wake me up when the battery pack voltage is upped so the bike can do ChaDeMo / CCS without issues.
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What I suspect is that Zero would support 200V DC charging by reconfiguring the pack dynamically, with each long brick in series. Having a separate 12V battery supports powering the onboard computer systems while performing a relay toggle to safely disconnect and reconnect packs.
Or they may just have the wiggle room in the new platform design to switch to 200V on a future model, without the dynamic switching, but that would require a motor controller change, potentially.
Dynamic pack reconfiguration is going to be a little tricky if they continue to use Power Tanks as a separate parallel battery.
At very low SOC (10%) the pack voltage is < 100V. Doubled, that might be an issue for stations that can go down to only 200 volts. Perhaps they would grow the packs to 30 series cells or similar.
I hope Zero has built this frame with an eye towards accommodating larger batteries in the future. It's possible that they judge - reasonably so - that CCS doesn't have enough deployment in enough places and that the current pack is large enough for daily riding.
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It would be unwise to underestimate the appeal of the "commuter-only" machine, even if commuting is truly the only purpose for the vehicle. For most drivers, commuting is far and away how they spend the majority of their miles.
But these bikes are far more versatile than that, anyhow. I've done club rides from where I live in El Cajon to Borrego Springs, about 150 miles round trip. Granted, I generally meet my club partway up the ride after a fresh recharge, and convince them to stop in Borrego for another recharge, then break off early for a final recharge, but so what? I still get to do >50% of the ride with them, and the rest by myself, and it's a great day of riding.
I've also ridden up to visit my family in Orange County, 180 miles or so round trip, which also works out great. I also did a one-day 263-mile trip, just so I could join the "250 miles in one day" club. It was a long day but a good day.
For me, I don't WANT longer trips very often, if ever. It just means more time spent in the saddle with a sore butt and stiff legs. They're supposed to be pleasure rides, not bummer rides.
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It would be unwise to underestimate the appeal of the "commuter-only" machine, even if commuting is truly the only purpose for the vehicle. For most drivers, commuting is far and away how they spend the majority of their miles.
But these bikes are far more versatile than that, anyhow. I've done club rides from where I live in El Cajon to Borrego Springs, about 150 miles round trip. Granted, I generally meet my club partway up the ride after a fresh recharge, and convince them to stop in Borrego for another recharge, then break off early for a final recharge, but so what? I still get to do >50% of the ride with them, and the rest by myself, and it's a great day of riding.
I've also ridden up to visit my family in Orange County, 180 miles or so round trip, which also works out great. I also did a one-day 263-mile trip, just so I could join the "250 miles in one day" club. It was a long day but a good day.
For me, I don't WANT longer trips very often, if ever. It just means more time spent in the saddle with a sore butt and stiff legs. They're supposed to be pleasure rides, not bummer rides.
I couldn’t agree with this more. I am looking for a e-motorcycle for the everyday short trips and short pleasurable rides. I still have my ICE tourer with big comforatable seat and forward foot boards for the long trips. The SR/F fits perfectly in this plan. But that is just me, I know everyone’s needs are different.
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What I suspect is that Zero would support 200V DC charging by reconfiguring the pack dynamically, with each long brick in series. Having a separate 12V battery supports powering the onboard computer systems while performing a relay toggle to safely disconnect and reconnect packs.
Or they may just have the wiggle room in the new platform design to switch to 200V on a future model, without the dynamic switching, but that would require a motor controller change, potentially.
Dynamic pack reconfiguration is going to be a little tricky if they continue to use Power Tanks as a separate parallel battery.
At very low SOC (10%) the pack voltage is < 100V. Doubled, that might be an issue for stations that can go down to only 200 volts. Perhaps they would grow the packs to 30 series cells or similar.
I hope Zero has built this frame with an eye towards accommodating larger batteries in the future. It's possible that they judge - reasonably so - that CCS doesn't have enough deployment in enough places and that the current pack is large enough for daily riding.
Great points. The 200V threshold was in mind when I wrote this but I'm only trying to work out a hypothesis. I think I've had some wish that the Power Tank would turn into a long brick, but that's not going to happen.
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I should say that my 2016 DSR with Power Tank accomplished 600 miles in a 20 hour day recently and that was using 6.6 or 9kW most of the way because of configuration issues (R&D clutter that takes up way too much of my trip attempts).
Right now I have 16.5kW of DigiNow charging units (3 in the pan and 2 on the chin) and almost 15kW nominal capacity so it's nearly at the sweet spot, theoretically 500 miles in a 12 hour day. As soon as my chargers are instantly usable via patching/re-plugging, that should hit 45mph overall trip speed (charging plus riding).
The milestone with travel is to have 20kWh of capacity with at least 15kW of AC (via multiple plugs or a single Tesla full-spec destination plug) or 20kW of DC charging. The SR/F is within sight of it, but the manufacturer does not put credence in that picture yet and Farasis hasn't delivered another bump in cell density.
I'm just glad that the new frame supports about 500lbs of passengers+cargo, and 18kWh is close enough that aerodynamics can push into the zone of relative comfort when traveling. Also, the new architecture seems like it'll take care of components better, and the new frame seems easier to attach fairing supports to.
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Dynamic pack reconfiguration is going to be a little tricky if they continue to use Power Tanks as a separate parallel battery.
At very low SOC (10%) the pack voltage is < 100V. Doubled, that might be an issue for stations that can go down to only 200 volts. Perhaps they would grow the packs to 30 series cells or similar.
Correct me if I'm wrong, all of current Zero packs are built by paralleling 28s strings. There are 3 or 4 of such strings paralleled in the main pack, and then power tank adds 1 more.
If you connect them all in series, you get 310, 414 or 518 volts nominal voltage well within the range of the DC chargers.
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Yeah, pacificcricket, being able to switch from parallel to series configuration would get you that, it's an interesting concept, but requiring a lot of wiring and a lot more concern of potential access to high voltage. It'll be interesting to see what direction they go.
Current monoliths are a pair of longbricks rather than 4 bricks though, and one of the benefits of this was said to be less heavy copper wiring. In your scheme a longbrick would be switchable 28S2P to 56S1P, I guess, and the whole monolith from 28S4P to 112S1P. Interesting. A lot of contactors there.
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Yeah, pacificcricket, being able to switch from parallel to series configuration would get you that, it's an interesting concept, but requiring a lot of wiring and a lot more concern of potential access to high voltage. It'll be interesting to see what direction they go.
Current monoliths are a pair of longbricks rather than 4 bricks though, and one of the benefits of this was said to be less heavy copper wiring. In your scheme a longbrick would be switchable 28S2P to 56S1P, I guess, and the whole monolith from 28S4P to 112S1P. Interesting. A lot of contactors there.
A thing to remember is that the amount of current going through the series cells will be significantly lower than what is currently supplied to the paralleled pack for "fast" charging. So for example, if say pack has 28S4P configuration with 27Ah Farasis cells,
to charge it in 1 hour you need to supply some 117 volts at 108A. If you reconfigure it into 112S1P, it will charge at 470V and 27A. So the contactors providing for string interconnects only need to handle those 27 amps. Those would be some tiny contactors, easily solid state. At the same time the wiring to handle such current can be reduced in size quite a bit as well. For example, 10AWG wire (5.26 sq mm) can handle up to 30A in DC applications.
Now for paralleling them requirements are different. Assuming pretty standard load max of 5C, that's 135A per string, which is what series contactor would have to handle, though the motor controller may reduce it further.
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> A thing to remember is that the amount of current going through the series cells will be significantly lower ...
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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It would also be possible to have a box to convert DC charge current to 240V AC then run it into the onboard chargers and a bigger charge tank charger. Not as efficient though or cost-effective but possible. The whole setup would just be a DC charge tank in one unit.
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Reconfiguring all cells into a single string sounds hard.
Abandoning the Power Tank and using two slightly-larger longbricks in 30- or 32-series would allow for the dynamic reconfiguration BrianTRice describes. 125A "50 kW" CCS could support 2C charge for 0-80% in 25 minutes, which is probably pushing an air-cooled battery pretty hard.
Zero has a bunch of smart engineers - no doubt they considered this route. Perhaps they decided it added too much complexity, or maintaining a 32-series and a 28-series powertrain was too difficult, or they simply thought high-power L2 charging was a better option than a complex L3 charging setup.
However it went, I would be surprised to see L3 support from Zero now for several years.
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It would be unwise to underestimate the appeal of the "commuter-only" machine, even if commuting is truly the only purpose for the vehicle. For most drivers, commuting is far and away how they spend the majority of their miles.
But these bikes are far more versatile than that, anyhow. I've done club rides from where I live in El Cajon to Borrego Springs, about 150 miles round trip. Granted, I generally meet my club partway up the ride after a fresh recharge, and convince them to stop in Borrego for another recharge, then break off early for a final recharge, but so what? I still get to do >50% of the ride with them, and the rest by myself, and it's a great day of riding.
I've also ridden up to visit my family in Orange County, 180 miles or so round trip, which also works out great. I also did a one-day 263-mile trip, just so I could join the "250 miles in one day" club. It was a long day but a good day.
For me, I don't WANT longer trips very often, if ever. It just means more time spent in the saddle with a sore butt and stiff legs. They're supposed to be pleasure rides, not bummer rides.
I couldn’t agree with this more. I am looking for a e-motorcycle for the everyday short trips and short pleasurable rides. I still have my ICE tourer with big comforatable seat and forward foot boards for the long trips. The SR/F fits perfectly in this plan. But that is just me, I know everyone’s needs are different.
I use my Zero to replace my car for relatively short rides to visit relatives, going shopping, doctor appointments and similar utility purposes. I have cut down my car's yearly mileage to around 300 miles. To me riding motorcycles is just enjoyable transportation that I use to get from here to there. If I was still working, I would be using it for commuting to work as I did with my Electric Motorsport GPR-S.
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It would also be possible to have a box to convert DC charge current to 240V AC then run it into the onboard chargers and a bigger charge tank charger. Not as efficient though or cost-effective but possible. The whole setup would just be a DC charge tank in one unit.
That's actually difficult / expensive / bulky. Have you seen Sevcon 300W (500W on newer models) DC-DC converter on Zero bikes ? Now think about what it would look like to have that for 14,000W.
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Reconfiguring all cells into a single string sounds hard.
Not any harder than reconfiguring four 12 volt lead-acid batteries between parallel and series configuration. The only additional consideration is around BMS.
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It would also be possible to have a box to convert DC charge current to 240V AC then run it into the onboard chargers and a bigger charge tank charger. Not as efficient though or cost-effective but possible. The whole setup would just be a DC charge tank in one unit.
Assuming the first thing on the AC charger is a properly sized full-wave bridge, you don't need to convert it to AC. The bridge's purpose is to rectify the AC to a raw DC voltage, which the charging circuitry filters and regulates to the proper DC voltage and current to charge the battery. If you run DC into the bridge, it still comes out rectified, though only two of the four diodes is used, so you may need a higher-rated bridge, but a lot of chargers already have them. IIRC, Brandon has stated that the Diginow charger can run off of AC or DC.
So really all you'd need is the front end to handshake with the DC charging port, to tell it what DC voltage the charger wants to run on. Kinda defeats the purpose of level 3 charging, since the whole idea there is to put the charger off of the vehicle, but it would work.
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Perhaps this bike will be attractive to some buyers, but as a long time Zero DS owner I wouldn't buy one. Wake me up when the battery pack voltage is upped so the bike can do ChaDeMo / CCS without issues.
Well said... in fact after getting my hopes up for this I just may be selling my 2016 DS when the lightning comes out or the Kymco. If I was going to spend over 20k I would buy the Energica just for how fast it charges. my DS 13.0 gets me around to all the places I need and I do like it but after the massive let down on this new world/industry changing SRF release :( I will not waste any more money on zero until charging is faster than 35 min or the bike goes 300 miles on the freeway. I have a feeling this will be my second/last zero.
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> Assuming the first thing on the AC charger is a properly sized full-wave bridge, you don't need to convert it to AC...
The point of a fast DC charger is for it to match volts and amps and then push current directly, so there's no need for an onboard charger and its limitations, just signaling. I.e. the charger is in the station, not the vehicle.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Diginow could charge off high DC voltage, I've heard rumors of experiments in that direction...
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That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Diginow could charge off high DC voltage, I've heard rumors of experiments in that direction...
Like it was stated earlier, many switching power supplies will readily operate on DC input within the same voltage range as the intended AC input. The problem is the current will still be limited by the output circuit of such converter, so the only thing hooking up Diginow to a Level3 charger is solving is ability to charge in the absence of Level2 chargers but presence of Level3 ones :)
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I don't have a lot of confidence that the cooling fins on the battery pack will do much to cool the core of the pack, but why did they not design the fins in the direction of flow when the bike is moving?
See>>>
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcREan6L3QHSzTK5DCg9UTD_xMVgBUgvIdfZHumL-EPejWpfnjYTAg)
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I don't have a lot of confidence that the cooling fins on the battery pack will do much to cool the core of the pack, but why did they not design the fins in the direction of flow when the bike is moving?
Pack is more likely to heat up more during charge than discharge. I did some number crunching, max continuous discharge given 600A Sevcon could be a bit over 200A spread across multiple strings, so with 4P only some 50A per string (and thus per cell). And that is only "max of continuous", which won't happen when cruising even at 70MPH, only when accelerating to 70MPH. So really position of the fins doesn't matter, as they'll be more helpful when bike is stationary and charging (fast).
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I'm rethinking this now and what are the 3 most important Electric Motorcycle specs?
Range, Recharge time, cost.
Cost is tricky right now, but I would like to see improvement in Range and Recharge time. Now they are hinting at >6 kW, but that is only practical if you are Double J charging, which I know a lot of people do with Diginows, but it's not ideal.
CCS would of been very handy and maybe it would save some weight. A higher voltage system has efficiency advantages, right?
Range. Wouldn't it be easy for Zero to allow a small bump in the battery box size to allow a ~16.5 kWh standard battery size?
The other improvements are great, but they are lower priority. Nice to haves: new dash, app, connectivity, ABS and Traction control, heated grips, Cruze control, LED lights, ect
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killroy the "fins" are shaped in a way to give a lip to bolt the batteries (looks like two long bricks to me) together and get some frame support. The material used may be more heat conductive but the over all shape of the fins is more for structure from what I can see.
I see you posted again. OK
Zero has always had a plan to use up all the old batteries before making new ones. The FX models kept the old bricks long after the S bikes had moved up. The 2018 S and DS still had the 13kWh batteries and now they all moved up to share the 3.6 brick platform.
The new frame design does seem to be able to modify the size pretty easy and make it wider or longer or deeper to hold new batteries in the future but my guess and only a guess is the 3.6 bricks will run through 2021. That lets them make some money from the R&D of the 14.4 before moving ahead. Or until someone else offers a bigger one than Zero.
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I don't have a lot of confidence that the cooling fins on the battery pack will do much to cool the core of the pack, but why did they not design the fins in the direction of flow when the bike is moving?
Pack is more likely to heat up more during charge than discharge. I did some number crunching, max continuous discharge given 600A Sevcon could be a bit over 200A spread across multiple strings, so with 4P only some 50A per string (and thus per cell). And that is only "max of continuous", which won't happen when cruising even at 70MPH, only when accelerating to 70MPH. So really position of the fins doesn't matter, as they'll be more helpful when bike is stationary and charging (fast).
OK, then what is the limiting factor when riding fast? Motor controller? From Zero presentations on the motor improvements I thought that the Battery, Controller and Motor were optimized to near the thermal limit at similar times.
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I don't have a lot of confidence that the cooling fins on the battery pack will do much to cool the core of the pack, but why did they not design the fins in the direction of flow when the bike is moving?
Pretty sure I read that the bellypan is now a scoop that channels air toward the battery and motor... thus the air moves upward from the bottom. That might explain the vertical fins, at least partly.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-srf/
Rotate the 360 pic about 45 degrees between front view and a side view... you can see two openings in the front of the pan.
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I don't have a lot of confidence that the cooling fins on the battery pack will do much to cool the core of the pack, but why did they not design the fins in the direction of flow when the bike is moving?
Pack is more likely to heat up more during charge than discharge. I did some number crunching, max continuous discharge given 600A Sevcon could be a bit over 200A spread across multiple strings, so with 4P only some 50A per string (and thus per cell). And that is only "max of continuous", which won't happen when cruising even at 70MPH, only when accelerating to 70MPH. So really position of the fins doesn't matter, as they'll be more helpful when bike is stationary and charging (fast).
OK, then what is the limiting factor when riding fast? Motor controller? From Zero presentations on the motor improvements I thought that the Battery, Controller and Motor were optimized to near the thermal limit at similar times.
From reading motorcycle magazine road tests of the SR/DR recently, it would seem that the limiting factor for those models is battery heating. The complaint is that when the battery hits around 130 degrees F, everything shuts down, including charging, until the batteries slowly cool off. Needless to say, the motorcycle testers have not been happy cooling both their heels and the battery packs somewhere in the middle of nowhere. :( Apparently, Zero has attempted to address this problem on the SR/F.
I am happy to see the radial fins of the new motor and I agree that they should cool better than the longitudinal fins of the older motor case. But oddly, I like the looks of the older motor more than the new version. ???
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OK, then what is the limiting factor when riding fast? Motor controller? From Zero presentations on the motor improvements I thought that the Battery, Controller and Motor were optimized to near the thermal limit at similar times.
When cruising fast I don't believe anything will be pushed near their limits. Sustained high speed takes a fraction of current spent on acceleration at full throttle. So unless you're repeatedly doing 0-60, you're not pushing the bike to the limit. If you're doing just that, sort of like in a racing setting, then I'm not sure what will reach the limit first without looking at the specs and some testing charts. The thing about Lithium cells though, they often have a lower thermal ceiling for charging than for discharging.
Here is the datasheet for one of the Farasis pouch cells used in previous models : https://evmc2.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/fei-datasheet-imp06160230p25a-pouch-25ah-v5.pdf
There are two thermal ranges specified :
Operating Temp. -20°C to 60°C
Charging Temp. 0°C to 45°C
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Battery overheating is a bigger deal for charging than it is for the motor. Last summer I rode my Eva to Charlotte, NC when the temps were in the low 90s. On the second DCFC it started to taper earlier than I had seen it before. When I took off I noticed the battery icon was yellow and it stayed that way for 15-20 minutes of riding but no reduction in power. On the third and last DCFC it started to taper even earlier and the battery icon styed yellow all the way home, about an hour ride. Again, never noticed any decrease in available power.
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OK, then what is the limiting factor when riding fast? Motor controller? From Zero presentations on the motor improvements I thought that the Battery, Controller and Motor were optimized to near the thermal limit at similar times.
When cruising fast I don't believe anything will be pushed near their limits. Sustained high speed takes a fraction of current spent on acceleration at full throttle. So unless you're repeatedly doing 0-60, you're not pushing the bike to the limit. If you're doing just that, sort of like in a racing setting, then I'm not sure what will reach the limit first without looking at the specs and some testing charts. The thing about Lithium cells though, they often have a lower thermal ceiling for charging than for discharging.
Here is the datasheet for one of the Farasis pouch cells used in previous models : https://evmc2.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/fei-datasheet-imp06160230p25a-pouch-25ah-v5.pdf
There are two thermal ranges specified :
Operating Temp. -20°C to 60°C
Charging Temp. 0°C to 45°C
Sustained highway speed for my 2015 Zero is only 80-85 mph in the summer. It does have the non IMP motor, so I am not sure if that is the limiting factor, but that is not repeated 0-60, that is just fast cruising.
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Battery overheating is a bigger deal for charging than it is for the motor. Last summer I rode my Eva to Charlotte, NC when the temps were in the low 90s. On the second DCFC it started to taper earlier than I had seen it before. When I took off I noticed the battery icon was yellow and it stayed that way for 15-20 minutes of riding but no reduction in power. On the third and last DCFC it started to taper even earlier and the battery icon styed yellow all the way home, about an hour ride. Again, never noticed any decrease in available power.
That's interesting. This is one thing about desire for high-C-rate DCFC - it'll push us right up against battery cooling system limits. Zero is sticking with 1C across the SoC range although there've been murmurs (CHAdeMO support certainly seemed to get there) of exceeding 1C in the mid-range charge states.
Do you know what the full/nominal C rate is for DCFC on your bike (or kW which we can get C-rate from roughly)?
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That's interesting. This is one thing about desire for high-C-rate DCFC - it'll push us right up against battery cooling system limits. Zero is sticking with 1C across the SoC range although there've been murmurs (CHAdeMO support certainly seemed to get there) of exceeding 1C in the mid-range charge states.
Do you know what the full/nominal C rate is for DCFC on your bike (or kW which we can get C-rate from roughly)?
If you look at the PDF I linked a couple of posts ago (likely the same link as in Unofficial Manual), the max charge current specified by the manufacturer is 25A. That is for 25Ah cell... only 1C. I couldn't find datasheets for later 27Ah and newest 32Ah cells made by Farasis, but it's very likely they haven't deviated from that rating given the same chemistry of the cell (NMC). So really with that stuff you're stuck with full charge in a bit under 1 hour, and not a minute faster. Does the cell warm up significantly charging at 1C ? There is probably a testing report available somewhere.
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That's interesting. This is one thing about desire for high-C-rate DCFC - it'll push us right up against battery cooling system limits. Zero is sticking with 1C across the SoC range although there've been murmurs (CHAdeMO support certainly seemed to get there) of exceeding 1C in the mid-range charge states.
Do you know what the full/nominal C rate is for DCFC on your bike (or kW which we can get C-rate from roughly)?
If you look at the PDF I linked a couple of posts ago (likely the same link as in Unofficial Manual), the max charge current specified by the manufacturer is 25A. That is for 25Ah cell... only 1C. I couldn't find datasheets for later 27Ah and newest 32Ah cells made by Farasis, but it's very likely they haven't deviated from that rating given the same chemistry of the cell (NMC). So really with that stuff you're stuck with full charge in a bit under 1 hour, and not a minute faster. Does the cell warm up significantly charging at 1C ? There is probably a testing report available somewhere.
Let’s be clear that the C-rate is current and 1C for a 25Ah cell is 25A and for a 32Ah cell is 32A.
I’ve been given and independently confirmed reason to believe that technically >1C can be supported if the external charger is in live communication with the BMS to ramp charging rates if there is any doubt of a temperature trend outside normal. And also that this C-rate limit depends on dynamic conditions and also only within the middle band. Essentially there is a multivariate manifold within which charging effects can be predicted and a charger if sufficiently well programmed with internal safeguards and robust failsafes with live sensor readings, could exceed 1C while protecting the cells lifetimes.
Notably, this is so highly contingent on complex factors that Zero reasonably does not support it.
Zero programs the BMS to operate the contactor at or below the 1C rate but Zero can change that if they can justify with Farasis that the cell parameters could be assured.
Note that DigiNow 2.5 is leveraging a status message from each BMS carrying the dynamic C-rate limit and dials the charging output to fit within it.
PS opening the contactor at high C rates would be bad, so this is all speculative. The point of battery stacking is to bring DCFC within the 1C rate.
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I’ve been given and independently confirmed reason to believe that technically >1C can be supported if the external charger is
Unless you got the word from the manufacturer of the cell, that's basically "I can do whatever at my own risk."
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BrianTRice, I have no idea what the full/nominal C rate is for DCFC for the Eva. The battery does have air vents that go through the center of the battery, you can see them directly behind the front wheel. I am sure it helps but there is still that point when it is really warm out that they aren't enough.On one hand it would be nice to have liquid cooling for the battery but this would also add cost and weight to the bike. It is also only a problem when the air temp is really warm so for most multi-DCFC trips it isn't an issue. Last July when I went out to western NC I never had a problem. Even riding the Blue Ridge Parkway where I rode over 350 miles in one day and only used CCS charging it was never an issue.
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I’ve been given and independently confirmed reason to believe that technically >1C can be supported if the external charger is
Unless you got the word from the manufacturer of the cell, that's basically "I can do whatever at my own risk."
Even if I got word from the manufacturer! The point is to turn the risk envelope into a proper engineering table or set of equations and observation-based safeguards (and to failsafe when the observations are unavailable).
BrianTRice, I have no idea what the full/nominal C rate is for DCFC for the Eva.
I'm asking what rate do you normally charge at that was then ramped down. In kW or A. The C-rate of that charge is just taking the kW or A and dividing by kWh or Ah capacity of the battery. The "rate" is not the "rating".
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Even if I got word from the manufacturer! The point is to turn the risk envelope into a proper engineering table or set of equations and observation-based safeguards (and to failsafe when the observations are unavailable).
What you're talking about is more science than engineering, which manufacturer is in the prime position to do. You could re-verify their findings, but you'd have to employ similar methods, which you're likely not in a position to do. So whenever you exceed the cell's specification, you do so at your own risk, even if you think you're backed by a few engineering tests.
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Even if I got word from the manufacturer! The point is to turn the risk envelope into a proper engineering table or set of equations and observation-based safeguards (and to failsafe when the observations are unavailable).
What you're talking about is more science than engineering, which manufacturer is in the prime position to do. You could re-verify their findings, but you'd have to employ similar methods, which you're likely not in a position to do. So whenever you exceed the cell's specification, you do so at your own risk, even if you think you're backed by a few engineering tests.
Let's be clear that "you" in this case is hypothetical, probably the reader of this forum who thinks they can DIY fast-charging. I'm not doing this, and I'm purposefully vague about my sources for many reasons.
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Anyone have a guess if the Givi top cases that most people use on their SR's will be compatible with the SRF?
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Anyone have a guess if the Givi top cases that most people use on their SR's will be compatible with the SRF?
Does the SR/F have a rear rack? If one is available, I would think that a Givi case would likely fit on the rack. But has Zero announced a line of accessories for the SR/F yet? I can't recall seeing any accessories yet. ???
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Anyone have a guess if the Givi top cases that most people use on their SR's will be compatible with the SRF?
Zero's Givi solution is a top rack with one of Givi's universal plates bolted to it. I'm sure there will be something very similar.
I saw one reference to Shad luggage probably for the side cases, but if Shad fits, Givi will fit.
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There are a lot of owners with a rear rack, so I would expect they catered for one in the design. It would be very silly if they didn't.
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David S good question. I looked at a YT video and they didn't show a clear close up but I could just make out a side bolt near the rear seat.
The silver side parts complicate things a bit. They have long open spaces that "may" help support a rack made just for this bike hard to tell.
The other thing I noticed was the new dash is much wider than the handle bar attachment bolts and would nee a new windscreen design as well.
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Just look at em a whole pack like a very quite biker gang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsNT9XdfxnU
P.S. I just saw it. The teal tank shows it best. The Zero logo is an eye and the silver front piece is a fang! It's a striking snake head! That's just awesome!
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And here he confirms belts changes without removing the swing arm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8pQZO1jcg
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Still no one has posted a video of them opening the storage area, I'd really like to see how it looks more than the one stock picture I have seen of the dual USB ports.
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Anyone have a guess if the Givi top cases that most people use on their SR's will be compatible with the SRF?
Check out the photo at the bottom of this link: https://electricmotorcycles.news/ecomobiel-antwerp-at-official-dealer-launch-zero-sr-f/
It shows SR/F accessories hanging on the wall. They include a rack and SHAD top box and side cases. I have SHAD side cases on my BMW and they are of high quality and fairly priced. SHAD makes BMW hard luggage, but sells their products for about 1/3 the cost of BMW luggage. :)
The side cases on the display look to me like their SH23 luggage.
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If you get the full 12kWs, do you still get storage and USB chargers?
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Anyone have a guess if the Givi top cases that most people use on their SR's will be compatible with the SRF?
Check out the photo at the bottom of this link: https://electricmotorcycles.news/ecomobiel-antwerp-at-official-dealer-launch-zero-sr-f/
It shows SR/F accessories hanging on the wall. They include a rack and SHAD top box and side cases. I have SHAD side cases on my BMW and they are of high quality and fairly priced. SHAD makes BMW hard luggage, but sells their products for about 1/3 the cost of BMW luggage. :)
The side cases on the display look to me like their SH23 luggage.
Those appear to be SH23 side cases:
https://www.shadusa.com/collections/sh23
And the SH39 top case:
https://www.shadusa.com/collections/sh39
Shad as a vendor have seemed pretty nice quality from what I've seen at dealerships. They're in the same range as Givi, with a different design focus, typically. I like that all of their cases have obvious parts replacement ordering options, something Givi doesn't support well aside from their Maxia line of top cases.
Their largest top case is a 59L expandable trunk, which is an interesting design idea.
https://www.shadusa.com/collections/sh59x-expandable
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If you get the full 12kWs, do you still get storage and USB chargers?
The initial pair of 3kW chargers fit under the tank storage, but the additional 6kW unit that brings it to 12kW seems to sit where the tank storage goes, so it's either like the existing Charge Tank or it IS the existing Charge Tank.
So, it probably replaces the storage but probably not the USB port since that's pretty cheap to move elsewhere.
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Best bet is the USB ports are just for charging phones and things but I'm hoping you can hook up a laptop and communicate with the bike as a backup for bluetooth.
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Best bet is the USB ports are just for charging phones and things but I'm hoping you can hook up a laptop and communicate with the bike as a backup for bluetooth.
That'd be unlikely as they will standard USB sockets, not USB hosts. But I betcha there's a secret socket somewhere for diagnostics.
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Is the parking brake another $600 option?
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Is the parking brake another $600 option?
If it is, you can always use a 6 cent piece of Velcro strap to tie the front brake against the handlebar when parking the bike on a steep street. ;)
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There's something special about a 20k+ bike you have to use a jerry-rigged velco solution on to park safely.
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There's something special about a 20k+ bike you have to use a jerry-rigged velco solution on to park safely.
Zero will sell you this $10 solution then.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_4&products_id=205
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There's something special about a 20k+ bike you have to use a jerry-rigged velco solution on to park safely.
Yes, and that is the bike is $600.00 cheaper than it would be if it came with the parking brake. Besides, you can always use their ten dollar brake hold (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=205)or one of these. (https://www.reddit.com/r/specializedtools/comments/81q2zp/grip_lock_motorcycle_throttle_and_brake_lever_lock/)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Am I the only person who always makes sure to park with his front wheel higher than the rear, so the bike always wants to roll back onto the kickstand?
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Am I the only person who always makes sure to park with his front wheel higher than the rear, so the bike always wants to roll back onto the kickstand?
I prefer this too. Largely because that means I can drive out uphill or back out downhill.
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I prefer this too. Largely because that means I can drive out uphill or back out downhill.
Exactly -- more stable parking, and you get to back up downhill, whether it's pulling into the spot or pulling out. The uphill part is done under power. How many motorcyclists haven't figured that out?
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I am surprised that a reverse mode or a parking lock was not included (or mentioned) in the feature set, honestly.
My 2016 DSR reverse mode modification is still very helpful performing hill-side maneuvers; I live on a very steep hill with poor pavement.
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Anybody have any hi-res shots of the SR/F, suitable for wallpaper? I've been looking at one of the new Norton Commandos, which is certainly a gorgeous bike with a fantastic retro feel, but now that there's some real eye-candy in our family, I want to put my bike's stablemate on my desktop.
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There's something special about a 20k+ bike you have to use a jerry-rigged velco solution on to park safely.
Zero will sell you this $10 solution then.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_4&products_id=205
I truly don't get these jury-rigged solutions.
Every auto-trans motorcycle I've ever seen, MotoGuzzi or Honda or whatever, right back to the 1970s, had a simple mechanical parking brake, like a simplified version of a car's,that locked onto one of the brake discs or drums. It couldn't cost Zero, Energica or whomever >$7 in parts to do this.
Incidentally, the MotoGuzzi solution was very elegant -- deploying the sidestand would automatically deploy the parking brake.
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There's something special about a 20k+ bike you have to use a jerry-rigged velco solution on to park safely.
Zero will sell you this $10 solution then.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_4&products_id=205
I truly don't get these jury-rigged solutions.
Every auto-trans motorcycle I've ever seen, MotoGuzzi or Honda or whatever, right back to the 1970s, had a simple mechanical parking brake, like a simplified version of a car's,that locked onto one of the brake discs or drums. It couldn't cost Zero, Energica or whomever >$7 in parts to do this.
Incidentally, the MotoGuzzi solution was very elegant -- deploying the sidestand would automatically deploy the parking brake.
BMW's C-Evolution also features the sidestand/parking brake linkage.
The parts cost is not $7 for the JJuan brakes that Zero adapted. Zero can't make volume supplier purchases, and uses JJuan because of that, which means accessories like the parking brake definitely don't get a volume discount.
Zero ran into trouble when it turned out that the rear parking brake install required significant mechanical care around the rear calipers. Thus it required dealer installation, and thus regrettably the price went up.
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Charging question:
So if you get the premium (6kw), do you get less storage? I assume the power tank (12kw) takes up room but do we know if the 3 vs 6 is any different?
How big/long do we think the EVSE adapter is for plugging into a 110V house outlet? Will it take up the whole storage tank?
Is the charging time the same if you use the house outlet/EVSE adapter as if you pulled into a level 2 charge station?
I am primarily going to be charging at work where there is a 110V outlet in the garage, so I will want to carry the adapter. Also am trying to figure if it's worth installing anything in my home garage or just go with the house outlet/adapter.
And last question...does anyone know if the heated grips can be ordered al a carte, of if you have to get the premium.
Thanks!
G
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My understanding is that the second 3kW charger is internal, so no loss of storage.
The house outlet adapter is a chunk of wire. I expect it to take up most of the storage. My local dealer in Cleveland did have an adapter in stock so I got to look at it.
I will leave it up to people who have done the math to give the exact details on charge times.
My short term plan is to take the adapter back and forth to work until I get mad enough to install a station at home, then just leave it at work.
Unknown about addons for the grips. I started off wanting the base model, thinking that my commute would not require the higher charge rate, and that basically meant I would be paying $2000 for heated grips. But I heard that premiums are higher on the factory build queue than the standards. That was enough to push me over the edge and get the premium.
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" But I heard that premiums are higher on the factory build queue than the standards. That was enough to push me over the edge and get the premium."
Sorry, can you clarify that last point?
I am feeling the same way about the $2000 heated grip thing. I'm looking for another reason to get the premium if I am going to mostly be charging with a house outlet and adapter. I am wondering if the 3kW and 6kW are different charging times if you use the 110V house outlet with adapter. If they are the same, I may avoid the premium and get nicer gloves:)
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I truly don't get these jury-rigged solutions.
Every auto-trans motorcycle I've ever seen, MotoGuzzi or Honda or whatever, right back to the 1970s, had a simple mechanical parking brake, like a simplified version of a car's,that locked onto one of the brake discs or drums. It couldn't cost Zero, Energica or whomever >$7 in parts to do this.
Incidentally, the MotoGuzzi solution was very elegant -- deploying the sidestand would automatically deploy the parking brake.
What parking brake? I have never seen such on a ICE motorcycle ever. They rely on the transmission to hold the bike when in gear. Electric bikes normally do not have a transmission so there is nothing to hold the rear wheel.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I truly don't get these jury-rigged solutions.
Every auto-trans motorcycle I've ever seen, MotoGuzzi or Honda or whatever, right back to the 1970s, had a simple mechanical parking brake, like a simplified version of a car's,that locked onto one of the brake discs or drums. It couldn't cost Zero, Energica or whomever >$7 in parts to do this.
Incidentally, the MotoGuzzi solution was very elegant -- deploying the sidestand would automatically deploy the parking brake.
What parking brake? I have never seen such on a ICE motorcycle ever. They rely on the transmission to hold the bike when in gear. Electric bikes normally do not have a transmission so there is nothing to hold the rear wheel.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Note the "auto-trans" at the beginning of my post refers to motorcycles with automatic transmissions (using torque converters). While rare, they do exist; e.g., the MotoGuzzi V1000 Convert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V1000_Convert).
More modern examples are the modern Honda DCT transmissions on various models and the Aprilia Mana.
These bikes' transmissions do not hold the bike stationary when the engine is off, and they all have parking brakes to avoid the bike rolling when parked on an incline; it's not always possible to park against a curb.
Electric motorcycles without transmissions should have the same.
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Note the "auto-trans" at the beginning of my post refers to motorcycles with automatic transmissions (using torque converters). While rare, they do exist; e.g., the MotoGuzzi V1000 Convert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V1000_Convert).
More modern examples are the modern Honda DCT transmissions on various models and the Aprilia Mana.
These bikes' transmissions do not hold the bike stationary when the engine is off, and they all have parking brakes to avoid the bike rolling when parked on an incline; it's not always possible to park against a curb.
Electric motorcycles without transmissions should have the same.
Oh, sorry that I missed your most important words. I am unfamiliar with auto trannys on motorcycles. You make a good point, electric should have the same, but that will price them a little higher. And I think that is the reason as electric bikes are already expensive compared to ICE. Perhaps there is a law about auto trannys having a parking brake and since EVs usually have no tranny . . .
OTOH, I use a grip lock (https://www.rideapart.com/articles/244859/meet-grip-lock-the-pocket-sized-motorcycle-anti-theft-device/) as necessary, which has worked well for me, as needed. It's not often I need to use it at all.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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" But I heard that premiums are higher on the factory build queue than the standards. That was enough to push me over the edge and get the premium."
Sorry, can you clarify that last point?
My local shop that carries Zero is Cleveland Moto. The owner (and maybe another CM staff person?) were at the reveal/test rides. Snow on the ground test rides so he likes the grips. :)
But he also talked to guys who were involved with the assembly. The production floor is currently dedicated to Premium units.
First to ship will be demo units (people won't buy what they cant see)
Then pre-order premiums.
The pre-order standards.
My pre-game decision to save money, fore-go the heated grips and better charge rate, went *right* out the window.
And besides, I get the awesome aluminum bar ends!
I am wondering if the 3kW and 6kW are different charging times if you use the 110V house outlet with adapter. If they are the same, I may avoid the premium and get nicer gloves:)
I suspect that a single 3kW charger has more capacity than you can get out of a wall outlet. And that charging from the wall outlet will be the same rate with any charger configuration. But I am still going to leave the math to people who actually know.
Let me add to the question:
What charge rate will you get from a wall outlet? (can be miles per hour or hours to 95%) (actually, both numbers would help)
What charge rate will you get if you install a 220v charge station and have a standard 3kW charger?
What charge rate will you get if you install a 220v charge station and have a premium 6kW charger?
What charge rate will you get if you install a 220v charge station and have a standard 3kW charger plus 6kW charge tank?
What charge rate will you get if you install a 220v charge station and have a premium 6kW charger plus 6kW charge tank?
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And besides, I get the awesome aluminum bar ends!
I hope the mirror placement is better. I added Arrow bar-end mirrors to my SR, and if I get fancy aluminium bar-ends I won't want to do that again..
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Wouldnt be too hard to have an almost 10kw home Level 2 charger....the one below pulls 40A @240 = 9.6Kw, on a 50a 14-50 circuit (like a dryer). Common for electricians to install that dryer plug at your house/garage. The car EV world learned to always tell your electrician that you want a 50A dryer plug instead of a EV plug....same plug, two different installed prices for some reason. We have that same Juicebox 40 at the shop, good unit. You'd need the fully optioned Premium SR/F to take full advantage of it.
https://www.amazon.com/JuiceBox-Electric-Vehicle-Charging-Station/dp/B00UB9R4KO/ref=sr_1_100_sspa?keywords=level+2+charging+station&qid=1551825722&s=gateway&sr=8-100-spons&psc=1 spec says 10Kw
Using the included Zero Turbocord for 120v charging, you'll get a max of 1.4Kw of charging. Going 120V more than doubles the charge time of using that cord on a 240v charging at 3.8Kw.
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Glad to see af1 racing posting here.
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What charge rate will you get if you install a 220v charge station and have a premium 6kW charger plus 6kW charge tank?
One report said you need 2 J1772 plugs to get the 12 kw/h charge rate (one plug for onboard 6 kw/h and one plug for power tank 6 kw/h), this seems reasonable as most J1772 are about 6 kw/h.
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...on a 50a 14-50 circuit (like a dryer). Common for electricians to install that dryer plug at your house/garage. The car EV world learned to always tell your electrician that you want a 50A dryer plug instead of a EV plug....same plug, two different installed prices for some reason.
Not to be a nazi, but just so people don't get confused or under-informed...the 14-50 outlet is rarely used for electric dryer outlets in residential situations. Much more common are the 10-30 and 14-30, both of which are good for only 30 amps, about 6.6kW nominal from 220VAC. The 14-50 is much more common as an RV outlet, and is capable of 50 amps or 11 kW. If you want the electrician to install a 14-50, make sure you specify it by name or at least be very sure he's aware you want the 50-amp version.
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...on a 50a 14-50 circuit (like a dryer). Common for electricians to install that dryer plug at your house/garage. The car EV world learned to always tell your electrician that you want a 50A dryer plug instead of a EV plug....same plug, two different installed prices for some reason.
Not to be a nazi, but just so people don't get confused or under-informed...the 14-50 outlet is rarely used for electric dryer outlets in residential situations. Much more common are the 10-30 and 14-30, both of which are good for only 30 amps, about 6.6kW nominal from 220VAC. The 14-50 is much more common as an RV outlet, and is capable of 50 amps or 11 kW. If you want the electrician to install a 14-50, make sure you specify it by name or at least be very sure he's aware you want the 50-amp version.
Yes, that's my experience and understanding as well. I charge on a 10-30 outlet at home at 3kW just because of the 15A-rated cord running to my J plug. The breaker is rated 30A but I wouldn't draw more than 25A regularly even with a more robust cable.
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...on a 50a 14-50 circuit (like a dryer). Common for electricians to install that dryer plug at your house/garage. The car EV world learned to always tell your electrician that you want a 50A dryer plug instead of a EV plug....same plug, two different installed prices for some reason.
Not to be a nazi, but just so people don't get confused or under-informed...the 14-50 outlet is rarely used for electric dryer outlets in residential situations. Much more common are the 10-30 and 14-30, both of which are good for only 30 amps, about 6.6kW nominal from 220VAC. The 14-50 is much more common as an RV outlet, and is capable of 50 amps or 11 kW. If you want the electrician to install a 14-50, make sure you specify it by name or at least be very sure he's aware you want the 50-amp version.
Yes, that's my experience and understanding as well. I charge on a 10-30 outlet at home at 3kW just because of the 15A-rated cord running to my J plug. The breaker is rated 30A but I wouldn't draw more than 25A regularly even with a more robust cable.
Limiting to 80% of rated amps for continuous loads is the norm. Beware that for chargers trying to draw constant power, amps will go up when volts go down, so in brownout situations, you can find a lot more amps being drawn than you'd anticipated. I've seen as low as 190V to as high as 245V. Stilll, 0.8*30*190=4560 so you should be good to draw 4500w from a 30A outlet. I am not, however, an electrician, so consult your professional.
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My local dealer has a SR/F prototype at their place right now. No demo rides, but can look at it.
The owner said he rode it and liked it a lot more than the S model.s And that it reminded him of a Triumph Street Triple which he considered to be high praise.
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Which dealer? Where are you located?
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http://www.eurosportcycle.com/
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Does it have one-finger braking?
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I got to ride the SR/F today and wow. That thing pulls like nothing I've ridden before. It felt similar to my FX and the DS I've ridden, but just much, much more powerful.
I have a Honda VFR1200X with 127 hp and 93 ft. lbs of torque and the SR/F made it feel sluggish by comparison.
The front wheel on the SR/F would lift if you hit the throttle at highway speeds. This one had no traction control either and the rear wheel stepped out on me once in a left turn and I thought I was going down for a second, but got it back under control. I think I spun the rear wheel a couple of times on the highway as well. I didn't realize the traction control was off or I would have taken it easy.
The bike felt good to ride though. The sport riding position was a little tight, but not uncomfortable. The ergonomics and seat were much more comfortable than I was expecting it to be.
I got on my FX immediately after and it felt like someone had turned the torque down to zero.
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Oh and the weight... I have bikes ranging from 500-630 lbs. in the garage and the SR/F did not feel like them.
It feels like a considerably lighter bike than 500 lbs. The weight is distributed very nicely.
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Awesome!! Did you get some photos or video??
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This was the only picture I thought to take of it.
(https://i.ibb.co/dL5fbY4/53560002-889438021387319-3291233567773818880-n.jpg)
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Thanks for sharing - sounds like I’ll be using this bike in Eco mode for a while!
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I have access to a wall outlet in the garage at work.
Does the SR/F charge from this directly or do I need an adapter to go to the J1772?
You may charge it from the wall with a supplied adaptor
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It would be unwise to underestimate the appeal of the "commuter-only" machine, even if commuting is truly the only purpose for the vehicle. For most drivers, commuting is far and away how they spend the majority of their miles.
But these bikes are far more versatile than that, anyhow. I've done club rides from where I live in El Cajon to Borrego Springs, about 150 miles round trip. Granted, I generally meet my club partway up the ride after a fresh recharge, and convince them to stop in Borrego for another recharge, then break off early for a final recharge, but so what? I still get to do >50% of the ride with them, and the rest by myself, and it's a great day of riding.
I've also ridden up to visit my family in Orange County, 180 miles or so round trip, which also works out great. I also did a one-day 263-mile trip, just so I could join the "250 miles in one day" club. It was a long day but a good day.
For me, I don't WANT longer trips very often, if ever. It just means more time spent in the saddle with a sore butt and stiff legs. They're supposed to be pleasure rides, not bummer rides.
I couldn’t agree with this more. I am looking for a e-motorcycle for the everyday short trips and short pleasurable rides. I still have my ICE tourer with big comforatable seat and forward foot boards for the long trips. The SR/F fits perfectly in this plan. But that is just me, I know everyone’s needs are different.
Perfect. I keep my Vulcan for the really long trips, but it just gathers dust. When I finally hop on it, it feels like a locomotive, slow, dirty, and noisy.
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For me, it sounds like the SR/F would have too much power. I don't even use full throttle on my 452 pound "S". I could see myself getting in trouble on a much more powerful electric motorcycle than the "S" if I made use of its performance very often since I ride in heavy traffic or on speed-restricted streets most of the time. So I think I will pass on the SR/F and just read about how its owners are enjoying their new ride - as well as seeing how it stacks up against the LiveWire and the Strike. ???
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Yes, this rider is also hoping for some trickle down towards a touring oriented model. No desire for neck snapping acceleration or short manhood compensation here. Grow a fairing to extend range, chill out the impressive/ freakish HP and torque, and keep the electronics, and viola, Zero will tap into another vein of gold.
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Yes, this rider is also hoping for some trickle down towards a touring oriented model. No desire for neck snapping acceleration or short manhood compensation here. Grow a fairing to extend range, chill out the impressive/ freakish HP and torque, and keep the electronics, and viola, Zero will tap into another vein of gold.
That's why it has different power modes to choose from including custom so you can tune it exactly to your liking. But I do agree they need a fairing version with a decent windscreen.
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Yes, this rider is also hoping for some trickle down towards a touring oriented model. No desire for neck snapping acceleration or short manhood compensation here. Grow a fairing to extend range, chill out the impressive/ freakish HP and torque, and keep the electronics, and viola, Zero will tap into another vein of gold.
"Grow a fairing," now that's funny right there !!!! AND you are correct....
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For me, it sounds like the SR/F would have too much power.
That was kind of my thought when riding it as well. It's hellafun, but I kept asking myself, where would I use this much torque?
Of course, you can dial it back, but why buy it in the first place is you're not planning on using it. If I lived near a track, it would be a blast, but I don't. On the street, that was a ton of power that would only serve to get me in trouble.
I'm sure if the SR/F I rode had the rider assist tech enabled, it would have felt more subtle. Not bringing up the front tire or sliding around corners, but still, its a lot of torque. Wish I could trade some of that 140 ft lbs. of torque for more highway range.
To me the FX and DS have plenty of usable torque. I'm not sure I'd even need a DSR for my uses.
I guess it all comes back to range for me. I've got a few 800-1000 mile trips coming up in the next few weeks. I'd love to do it on an electric bike, but it just doesn't seem feasible at this point.
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For me, it sounds like the SR/F would have too much power.
That was kind of my thought when riding it as well. It's hellafun, but I kept asking myself, where would I use this much torque?
There is no way I'll ride it to anywhere near its potential, but torque is not why I'm buying it. I want it for the updated looks, better equipment, improved ergonomics, nicer LCD screen, better headlights, improved charging, nicer colors, etc.
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There is no way I'll ride it to anywhere near its potential, but torque is not why I'm buying it. I want it for the updated looks, better equipment, improved ergonomics, nicer LCD screen, better headlights, improved charging, nicer colors, etc.
I agree, it's just a far more "finished" bike than we've seen from Zero yet. I rarely if ever get looks on my 2014 SR, but I think this new bike will draw peoples' attention. I'd love to upgrade, but first I need to buy a new house and wait for the finances to settle. Soon, hopefully.
Of course, that torque.......might be pretty difficult to not squeeze the throttle a bit once in a while. Especially when some blonde in a 'Vette thinks she's all that.
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Haven't seen this little advert video before: https://www.motor.com.co/video/nueva-zero-f-innovadora-potente/31920
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Of course, that torque.......might be pretty difficult to not squeeze the throttle a bit once in a while. Especially when some blonde in a 'Vette thinks she's all that.
I wouldn't be able to stay out of it.
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One thing that I can't recall being mentioned yet is the width of the drive belt on the SR/F. I wonder if it is still the same width as used on the 2018 Zero models? If it is, that would indicate that the belt has some reserve capacity on the earlier models. :)
One thing that I do recall hearing or reading about recently is that the belt on the SR/F uses a higher tension than on previous models in order to insure that it does not skip a tooth (apparently) when the motor is being maxed out. I found that statement surprising, consider that the belt tension on my 2018 S is specified as 25 to 76.5 kg. The higher number already seems pretty tight to me. ??? (My belt was adjusted to 75 kg at the factory and I feel like you could play a tune on the belt.) ;)
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Haven't seen this little advert video before: https://www.motor.com.co/video/nueva-zero-f-innovadora-potente/31920
Nice.. the narrator girl was kinda "effortless" too ;D
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AAAnd action!
Posted on Bill Kerr's channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4EUYdX_wXs
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That's the same one I rode and the same road I rode it on :)
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He was smart enough to find a back road, I was running 115 down that freeway at the beginning of the video.
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[...] My 2016 DSR reverse mode modification is still very helpful performing hill-side maneuvers; I live on a very steep hill with poor pavement.
Is there a how-to guide available for the mod? I have at least a handful of DS and DSR colleagues who would love to have a reverse mode. In the unofficial manual the mod is mentioned, but not in detail (which I would need to have).
Regards John