ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: NEW2elec on December 14, 2018, 07:00:34 AM
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BMW and Porsche and their 450kW chargers are ready when you are.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/bmw-porsche-just-beat-tesla-105813422.html
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News articles with headlines like that show just how ignorant some journalists are. All non-Tesla EVs are promoters of Tesla and competitors to ICE vehicles. The only thing BMW and Porsche are beating is the need for fossil fuels and proving that Tesla has been correct all along.
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Tesla makes some good cars and they have made the EV cool and usable for most needs but it looks like most every car company is coming out with one or more EVs by 2020.
At that point the real race starts and we'll see who pulls ahead.
Tesla may crush them all I don't know, but super fast charging <15 mins will be needed to kill gas.
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For me it will be interesting to see if all of the auto companies can sell enough EVs to make various "first-World" countries happy, while also making a profit for their stockholders and investors. All government bureaucrats want to see lots of EV sales to address global warming and other issues, but I am not at all sure that the majority of the car buying public is willing to embrace this new technology any time soon, especially when it comes at a premium price and gas prices are so low. Large pickups, like the Ford F-150, are currently the most popular vehicles in the U.S. To me, it would seem that large pickup trucks are not the best vehicles for using electric power, considering the space needed to accommodate their cargo bed and limited carrying capacity. ???
While electric vehicles might be popular in European cities, I am not so sure about the wide open spaces of the U.S. Around the SF Bay Area, you see Teslas and Leafs all of the time, driving back and forth between SF and San Jose. But get out in the boondocks, not so much. ;)
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Tesla has been doing this for a while, and though I agree the other mfrs have some great engineering teams, batteries != engines. The devil is in the details, and Tesla has had many years and several models to sort through a lot of the bugs in the whole EV system. It WILL take the others some time to catch up, though not as long as it's taken Tesla to get to where they are.
But the other advantage the years have given Tesla is time to create, from scratch, a Supercharger network. That's going to take a while, and a fair amount of investment, to duplicate. If you can't charge your car wherever you want to go, it's just a commuter wagon.
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Tesla's network of chargers and super chargers is impressive, for now.
I still feel they fall short of what will be the endgame speed of charging needed to kill gas.
The UK has mandated all gas stations must have charging stations in the next few years which is a perfect transition idea in my opinion. They have been spaced out over decades based on volume and distance needed by populations in those areas.
Leave level II charging at home and Ultra Charge on the road.
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I still feel they fall short of what will be the endgame speed of charging needed to kill gas.
Oh, I agree, no question about it. But Tesla does have a good jump on everybody else.
The UK has mandated all gas stations must have charging stations in the next few years which is a perfect transition idea in my opinion.
But whose standard? What protocol? I was ticked off recently when I tried to buy a car charger for my Samsung S9+ phone that would keep up with the discharge caused by my dash cam, Google maps and Torque app while I drive. There are so many standards out there, and it's hard to figure out who uses which -- to this day, I don't know what's the name of the "standard" my phone uses. On the third try, I finally did find a charger that's actually capable of fast charging my phone.
Of course that happens all the time in industry, when companies try to distinguish their product from other companies'. Remember the VHS/Beta fight? Blu-Ray versus HD DVD? Situations like that cause everybody to lose. By contrast, WiFi has never had that problem. All manufacturers adhere to the same standard, and newer equipment is always backwards compatible with older equipment.
Whenever you have two (or more) protocols in the same market space, it's really NONstandardization.
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I had to go digging to find this but it stuck in my memory for some reason. It's not cost efficient but it's a start.
And I agree there will have to be a true standard but there isn't a type that is good enough yet to be an end standard like a common gas pump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nst2RGtgzfk
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450.000 watts at 100 volts = 4500 amperes
This is huge. You need a cable with 17 cm radius (unless you have special materials / cooling) using the 1000 km/sqinch rule...
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450.000 watts at 100 volts = 4500 amperes
This is huge. You need a cable with 17 cm radius (unless you have special materials / cooling) using the 1000 km/sqinch rule...
17 cm? :o That is not going to be very easy for the customer to drag to their vehicle and push into the power receptacle. ::)
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I just watched that Fully Charged video and I really like what Shell was trying to do in the UK. However, (someone correct me if I am wrong), in California it appears that our petrol suppliers, such as Shell, Chevron and Union Oil, don't seem to have the same vision as they do in the UK. My limited experience is that local managers of fuel stations around here (most of which are franchised businesses) don't want to have anything to do with electric vehicles. I can only assume that they see electric vehicles as taking away their business and would prefer to see them just go away, much less installing recharging stations that would attract them.
To my way of thinking, it would make a lot of sense for an established petrol station to install charging stations that would operate just like a gas pump by inserting your credit card, plugging in your charge cord and then be charged only for the amount of energy that you consume, just like if you were at a gasoline pump. That seems like a simple plan and one that the typical car driver is currently familiar with and could easily understand.
Why does this seem so difficult to accomplish? Why do you have to pay a fee to subscribe to a particular charging network, then try to find one along your travel route that was operated by that network and then pay via a smart phone app that might charge you for the amount of electricity you consume, or maybe just the amount of time that you are connected to the station? The whole system seems goofy to me, when the infrastructure already exists for refueling ICE vehicles, which could also accommodate EVs. ???
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Moto the Porsche Taycan is a 800 Volt operating system. :)
Shocking right?
So around 560 Amps. Still a thicker cord and I do think there was active cooling talked about as well but not 17cm cord.
This is the key to the OP story that they beat Tesla to the charging time goal.
Richard, that's what Doug and I were talking about the UK mandate so Shell UK has to do it, no choice.
i agree the simple card to pay will be the future. The stand alone charging at level II is a doomed business model even if they had all chargers going 24/7. The small about of range that cars get from them isn't worth what they need to charge to be profitable IMO.
If gas stations were smart they would embrace it as a more profitable model in the future. Just think about all the overhead cost of shipping all the gas from oil well to refinery to stations. Now all of that cost is gone.
The electricity would be 2X or 3X what you pay at home but just like the soda and bottled water and candy they sell is 3X what it would be at a grocery store.
I think it's the natural solution and just a matter of cutting a deal with one of the big chains once true <15 min charging is reliable.
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Moto the Porsche Taycan is a 800 Volt operating system. :)
Shocking right?
So around 560 Amps. Still a thicker cord and I do think there was active cooling talked about as well but not 17cm cord.
This is the key to the OP story that they beat Tesla to the charging time goal.
Richard, that's what Doug and I were talking about the UK mandate so Shell UK has to do it, no choice.
i agree the simple card to pay will be the future. The stand alone charging at level II is a doomed business model even if they had all chargers going 24/7. The small about of range that cars get from them isn't worth what they need to charge to be profitable IMO.
If gas stations were smart they would embrace it as a more profitable model in the future. Just think about all the overhead cost of shipping all the gas from oil well to refinery to stations. Now all of that cost is gone.
The electricity would be 2X or 3X what you pay at home but just like the soda and bottled water and candy they sell is 3X what it would be at a grocery store.
I think it's the natural solution and just a matter of cutting a deal with one of the big chains once true <15 min charging is reliable.
I keep getting the impression that oil companies, refineries, fuel trucking companies, and petrol station owners all feel that if they can ignore electric-powered vehicles they will eventually go away. Not going to happen, but it is tough to get your head out of the sand at times. ;)
Meanwhile, an article in my newspaper today says that California has adopted a regulation that would require all new public buses to be zero-emission designs, such as electric or hydrogen powered within 10 years. All existing ICE buses are expected to be phased out by 2040. The article mentioned that public bus companies would need to order 12,000 electric buses, with funding help from government grants and the VW emission-cheating software fine. Right now there are 153 zero-emission buses on the road in California, with hundreds more on order.
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Tesla makes some good cars and they have made the EV cool and usable for most needs but it looks like most every car company is coming out with one or more EVs by 2020.
At that point the real race starts and we'll see who pulls ahead.
Tesla may crush them all I don't know, but super fast charging <15 mins will be needed to kill gas.
Even as it is, I see time advantages to my Tesla because it never needs to stop at a gas station ever-and the only times I have ever charged on the road is when I had other things to do for the time being charged.
I normally only charge at home. How many people have a gas station at their house? Even as it is, EVs can save time compared to ICE vehicles.
-Don- Tucson, AZ
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450.000 watts at 100 volts = 4500 amperes
This is huge. You need a cable with 17 cm radius (unless you have special materials / cooling) using the 1000 km/sqinch rule...
That's why EV's apart from exceptions don't operate at 100V.
I still feel they fall short of what will be the endgame speed of charging needed to kill gas.
Oh, I agree, no question about it. But Tesla does have a good jump on everybody else.
The UK has mandated all gas stations must have charging stations in the next few years which is a perfect transition idea in my opinion.
But whose standard? What protocol? I was ticked off recently when I tried to buy a car charger for my Samsung S9+ phone that would keep up with the discharge caused by my dash cam, Google maps and Torque app while I drive. There are so many standards out there, and it's hard to figure out who uses which -- to this day, I don't know what's the name of the "standard" my phone uses. On the third try, I finally did find a charger that's actually capable of fast charging my phone.
Of course that happens all the time in industry, when companies try to distinguish their product from other companies'. Remember the VHS/Beta fight? Blu-Ray versus HD DVD? Situations like that cause everybody to lose. By contrast, WiFi has never had that problem. All manufacturers adhere to the same standard, and newer equipment is always backwards compatible with older equipment.
Whenever you have two (or more) protocols in the same market space, it's really NONstandardization.
Chademo and CCS, you don't need anything else on those fast chargers although they often include a Mennekes because why not. The AC-DC or DC-DC conversion is made by the same converter and the only major difference is the plug that you put in your car.
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Chademo and CCS, you don't need anything else on those fast chargers although they often include a Mennekes because why not. The AC-DC or DC-DC conversion is made by the same converter and the only major difference is the plug that you put in your car.
It doesn't seem like Chademo ever made it out of Japan successfully, and I don't know if CCS DC is gaining steam fast enough here in the States, either.
I personally like both those solutions, but I think they're really only adequate for an interim solution, as is the Tesla supercharger. Until EVs have ~300 mile range, and can charge in five minutes on many street corners in every city, the naysayers will say it's inadequate, and enough people will believe them that EVs will never become the default. Battery capacity is already there, we just need batteries that can stand that sort of charging speed, and a good charging protocol to provide it.
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Apart from some Chademo/Mennekes stations that I saw once in rural France installed by the Renault/Nissan groupe literality every fast charging station I've ever seen has both CCS and Chademo. They are the standard.
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Most of the Whole Foods Markets in the SF Bay Area have
Chademo and CCS. I think I usually see Nissan Leafs (Leaves?)
using them. Are they not found elsewhere?
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I'll let Nikki explain more about the charging station which does include cooling the cable and car's battery in the Taycan for those who want to know more about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNfTEWMgR_M
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Perhaps some new charge standard in the future ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/transportation/efficiency/a-global-charging-standard-for-evs
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That is quite a large transformer box powering the two charging stations. :o
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Yes Richard it's big and ugly and I'm not sure what's inside that one. At one point they talked about it being a battery bank that would be charged up all day and dumped when someone needs to use it but I don't know what they ended up going with.
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Tesla makes some good cars and they have made the EV cool and usable for most needs but it looks like most every car company is coming out with one or more EVs by 2020.
At that point the real race starts and we'll see who pulls ahead.
Tesla may crush them all I don't know, but super fast charging <15 mins will be needed to kill gas.
Even as it is, I see time advantages to my Tesla because it never needs to stop at a gas station ever-and the only times I have ever charged on the road is when I had other things to do for the time being charged.
I normally only charge at home. How many people have a gas station at their house? Even as it is, EVs can save time compared to ICE vehicles.
-Don- Tucson, AZ
People don't have a gas station at thieir house but many don't have garages or power outlets where they park their vehicles either. The current target market for EVs, inner city commuters, don't have those luxuries and would need to charge somewhere.
This is why there is a race to put replaceable battery "stations" around cities so you can just swap batteries at a street corner or take them in your apartment and charge them. I think that format will help adoption quicker than the current pace of plug stations. It won't work, yet, for high powered juice machines but if more people adopt EV of some sort, more infrastructure will come and the more comfortable people will be with purchasing EVs. Than it will b better for everyone.
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That is quite a large transformer box powering the two charging stations. :o
It's close to a MW.
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> > Tesla may crush them all I don't know, but super fast charging <15 mins will be needed to kill gas.
Tesla Model 3 gets 100 miles of range in 15 minutes. Yes, total battery is 300 miles range, but that 20-50% starting SoC charge, before the battery heats up too much, is golden, it can take 120,000 watts for 15-20 minutes. To cover distance, a supercharge every 100 miles is the best strategy.
> > Even as it is, I see time advantages to my Tesla because it never needs to stop at a gas station ever-and the only times I have ever charged on the road is when I had other things to do for the time being charged.
I did 800 miles each way, SF to Mojave to Mesa, stopped multiple times, and all were pleasant, restaurant, gift shop, espresso bar, all with restrooms, very civilized. Well, there was that one Carls Jr outside Phoenix that one time...
> > I normally only charge at home. How many people have a gas station at their house? Even as it is, EVs can save time compared to ICE vehicles.
That's you, but a lot of people don't have garages.
> People don't have a gas station at thieir house but many don't have garages or power outlets where they park their vehicles either.
That's me. I can charge my Zero at home, but the Tesla has to charge elsewhere, or I'm blocking the neighbors.
> The current target market for EVs, inner city commuters, don't have those luxuries and would need to charge somewhere.
> This is why there is a race to put replaceable battery "stations" around cities so you can just swap batteries at a street corner or take them in your apartment and charge them. I think that format will help adoption quicker than the current pace of plug stations. It won't work, yet, for high powered juice machines but if more people adopt EV of some sort, more infrastructure will come and the more comfortable people will be with purchasing EVs. Than it will b better for everyone.
I doubt this will come to much. A scooter or electric-bike battery can carried into an apartment, but e-motorcycle and e-car batteries are too big to take up stairs or elevator. People won't stand for the exertion, and the batteries won't handle the wear and tear well. 2C or 3C charging, close to shopping and food court and coffee and restrooms, is plenty good enough.
Other carmakers should follow Tesla's lead, and optimize cars and charging to do road trips well. As long as they see them as compliance or "city car" vehicles, they fall further behind. Tesla shows it can be done, and the other carmakers will have to adjust or die.
T
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> > Tesla may crush them all I don't know, but super fast charging <15 mins will be needed to kill gas.
> Tesla Model 3 gets 100 miles of range in 15 minutes. ...
https://insideevs.com/tesla-says-sub-10-minute-supercharging-is-possible-we-doubt-it/
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Yeah Togo 100 miles is real good but to be fair that isn't fully charged. That range may or may not be enough for the trip and or to the next charging station. Don't get me wrong it's not like I'm ready to throw in the towel if that charging speed doesn't come soon but if people think that "it's good enough for my use, it's fine" the technology won't be pushed further as fast. Plus imagine there are four cars in front of you waiting to charge just for 15 mins.
We still have to crush the "yeah buts" from ICE users to keep sales moving in the right direction, and one of those is charge time in a fast moving world.
I've thought of almost forklift style blades inserted into the rear of a car automatically for high wattage charging but I'll leave that to experts.
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> Yeah Togo 100 miles is real good but to be fair that isn't fully charged...
To be fair, full charge should be avoided if you value battery life, except immediately before a long segment. It's much better to exercise the mid-range of your battery pack, as long as rapid stations are available at regular intervals. A stop at least every hour or 90 minutes is good for health and sanity as well.
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except immediately before a long segment
Like a trip? :)
Home charging works for daily use I see these stations for long trips only any way.
It's all good man I can't control any of it I just watch and give my opinion as advice for those that can fix it.
I am glad to see it getting faster for my mindset of what is needed for the masses. The 9 to 5ers with two or three kids who want to milk every second out of their vacations and days off doing or being where they want to be and not sitting at a charging station.
Keep in mind there are a lot more of them than flexible free time singles.
Quick side thought EV's should not give you a range or battery charging capacity that can hurt your battery. In other words 100% SOC "should" never hurt your battery. Lie and say it's 100% when you limit it to 80% if that is what it takes, cause I'm filling that thing up.
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Not a hit on Tesla since they are basically passing on their cost but this does give cheap skates like me pause.
https://www.engadget.com/2019/01/19/tesla-hikes-supercharger-prices-worldwide/?yptr=yahoo
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I normally only charge at home. How many people have a gas station at their house?
-Don- Tucson, AZ
Well, about 6 years back, we brewed biodiesel for our diesel fleet in the back yard ...
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> > I normally only charge at home. How many people have a gas station at their house? Even as it is, EVs can save time compared to ICE vehicles.
That's you, but a lot of people don't have garages.
I don't have a garage, but nearly every EVSE manufacturer makes hardware designed to be exposed to the elements.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2aruy9.jpg)
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Nice little solar light touch. :)
I think level 2 chargers will (may) become more standard with new homes once the market hits a certain point.
As for apartments it's a matter of telling them you want one and are willing to to pay for the use and a little bump on the rent.
They started putting in pools and little gyms and green concrete pads that no one uses called tennis courts because that was what renters said they wanted.
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The area needed a little light, and I hated how the post looked without some kind of cap (especially since the moro---er---installer cut it crooked). I think you're right, a 240v run is nothing during the building of a house. Doing what I did is very expensive, but I did it before the EVSE credit ran out.
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Just out of curiosity, kcfoxie, why did you install a J1772 and not a generic 14-50? I went with the 14-50 because it was a lot cheaper and seemed a lot more flexible than J1772. It will also give you 50 amps if you need it, and since I already had the adapter cable that came with my DigiNow, there was no cost for an adapter.
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Doug, interesting idea what did that install cost if you don't mind my asking?
I think here in GA I think it's around 2-3k to install a J1772 setup but hat was a few years ago and depended on how old your house was and if it could be stepped up for that power draw.
I wonder if these for profit charging stations out in the wild will go with a "bring your own charging cord" approach since I can see damaged cable insulation being a costly repair and safety concern.
The guy in New Zealand on YT was charging off stations that used the outlet only approach.
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I had the electrician do it while he was replacing my old, decrepit breaker box, so I'm not sure what he charged for that part of the job. The whole job was under $500, though, so I doubt that install was more than $100 or so. They do it all the time for RV owners.
There are a LOT of us who use plain ole outlets for charging out in the field. That's why we love RV parks so much. They're not in it to make a profit, and they seem titillated by the novelty of it, so if you explain it's like $2 worth of electricity, they'll generally give you a charge for cheap, sometimes even free.
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I think here in GA I think it's around 2-3k to install a J1772 setup but hat was a few years ago and depended on how old your house was and if it could be stepped up for that power draw.
It depends on many factors, but at my house in Cold Springs Valley (15 miles north of here) I had an electrician install a 240 VAC outlet for $500.00 and then I use one of these. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07J4VCYKL/ref=sspa_dk_detail_5?psc=1)
This was an easy job because the NEMA 14-50 outlet was mounted on the opposite of the wall of my circuit breaker panel.
-Don- Reno, NV