ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: dfautheree on December 07, 2018, 03:35:02 AM
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https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2018/december/zero-electric-bikes-about-to-take-off/ (https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2018/december/zero-electric-bikes-about-to-take-off/)
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That article is a lot more optimistic than I am about the future sales of electric motorcycles, including Zeros. Not only do they need to change their platform to make it larger and the styling more interesting, but they also need to lower their prices, increase the range, update their chassis electronics and do something that will get their product in the general news - like riding a Zero across the White House lawn. :o
Most government incentives in the U.S. have gone away for electric motorcycles, such as the 10% tax credit from the IRS, and that can't have done much to increase sales to the public. When I bought my 2018 Zero I received a $900 rebate from California, but all that did was to cover the sales tax that I paid to the state when buying the bike. How many other states offer rebates for electric motorcycles?
My opinion is that the only thing that will really increase sales of electric motorcycles is if the U.S. and EU governments get heavy-handed and lower the hammer on ICE bikes, or if there is a war in the Middle East that cuts oil production and causes gasoline supplies to be restricted, like happened during the "Gas Crisis" of the mid-1970's.
If Zero is having their best year yet, I bet it is mostly due to fleet sales to various public agencies. ???
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So he was at Buell for 15 years how long of a contract does he have with Zero?
Seems more click bait than anything else.
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Aiming for fleet sales is wise, since fleets operate more on accounting principles than individuals do, and have broader budget stability.
Zero sales do seem to consistently grow, but they haven't grown as quickly as statements from 2013 suggested (when Abe was brought on, among others, turning Zero around from when they delivered bikes that I didn't think were worth buying).
I think Zero doesn't broadly understand how their offerings are perceived, and are not executing well at marketing.
I always answer questions about my bike, and Zero is still non-existent to most motorcyclists and to the motorcycle-inclined market. Even when people are aware of Zero, they don't know "who it's for" which is part of the scope of marketing. And my bike looks way more interesting (to me) and fully-fleshed out than most owners' bikes.
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With this years model being essentially no different than last years, with no difference in pricing, and no smarter marketing, I don't see how sales would be any different this year. Gas is cheap right now too!
Fleet sales is likely the only thing that will increase their numbers. Consumer sales have no reason to increase.
I have the same experience with the other riders I know. Conversation goes "What do you ride" "A Zero SR" "Who makes that???" "Zero, they've been making electric bikes in scotts valley for 10~ years." "Oh okay" And then they follow with a bunch of skeptical questions about range and speed, and concerns about the lack of noise.
People keep wanting to call companies "the tesla of motorcycles" but the truth is while zero is the most practical and successful, none of the electric bike brands have anywhere near the name recognition of tesla, nor have they succeeded in the most important way: making e-moto's desirable and "sexy" for the masses who weren't already interested in electric. If anything zero is closer to the Nissan Leaf, slow and steady growth aimed at a very specific market. But even then, the leaf is obviously much more successful.
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How many motos is Zero selling? Seems like a closely guarded secret.
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Maybe Zero can't make more bikes than they allready do.
So why should they do a campaign costing huge money?
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At the risk of beating a dead horse, I think Zero really needs to address their service issues before sales can take off. One of the best uses for Zero is as a commuter bike. Although most Zeros are reliable, the very real chance of a commuter bike being in the shop for months is pretty off-putting. I don't think the technology is there yet to make a mass market bike for people who want to tour cross country or go hit the twisties on the weekends. Yes, some dedicated people can make it work, but I believe that in the near term, the biggest market is to people who are doing short trips.
I'm sure it's partly a function of where I ride and who I talk to, but the people that seem like they might buy a Zero have a motorcycle in the lot when I'm talking to them. The people that say it's not for them have a car in the lot and a bike (or bikes) at home.
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How many motos is Zero selling? Seems like a closely guarded secret.
I have seen Zero yearly sales numbers tossed around between 1500 a year and 3000 a year, depending upon the source. In any case, whatever the number, sales are not nearly large enough for the big established (and well funded) motorcycle companies, like the Japanese and Europeans (BMW accepted, kind of) to jump into the high-performance electric motorcycle market. Granted H-D says that they plan to enter the market next year with an updated LiveWire, but we will have to see how that works out for them once the price is announced and the hype in the press cools off. However, I am sure that Jay Leno will be one of their first customers. ::)
Also, I agree with Domingo3's comments that the only real potential mass market for electric motorcycles right now is as a commuter vehicle and that is the way Zeros ought to be advertised to the general public who are not currently electric motorcycle enthusiasts.
I have several BMW-owning friends and they tell me that what they are looking for in an electric motorcycle is a 200 mile range at 75 mph. Zero is not there yet.
One other thing: Every weekend I ride up to the motorcycle hangout, Alice's Restaurant, on one of my motorcycles. My BMW RS and Triumph Bonneville gets noticed, as does my Royal Enfield. But when I ride up there on my Zero no one has ever seemed to pay any attention the bike and I have yet to have anyone run over and say "Great looking motorcycle, what is it and where can I get one." :'(
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I can only speak as someone living on Long Island in New York State but I think this would apply to nearly anyone living in a congested urban/suburban environment.
Zero builds EXACTLY the kind of motorcycle people who live in these areas NEED (although not necessarily what they WANT). Up until recently I owned two ICE motorcycles plus my Zero S (I am now down to one ICE motorcycle and a Zero). I ride every day the weather permits; mostly commuting (I have a 34 mile round trip commute; nearly all highway). Unless I need to carry more than one passenger, or more "luggage" than permitted by the capacity of either of my bikes, my car remains parked at the curbside most of the time. To give an example of how little my car is used, at the time it was traded in this year my 2001 Subaru Outback had JUST topped 100,000 miles. By comparison, my 1999 BMW K1200LT (which has NEVER been the "only motorcycle" in my garage) now has over 214,000 miles.
Since getting the Zero, the ICE bikes have been relegated to multi-day trips, or days where I expect to do over 100 miles (typically on weekends with my riding club). Otherwise, I ride the Zero. I've discovered that 90% of my riding is perfectly fine on the Zero. I have the 13kWh model without the charge tank or the power tank (Level 1 charging only). At the time my 2016 model was totaled in June of this year, it had nearly 17,000 miles on the odometer. In the two months I've had my 2018 model I've already logged more miles on it than I did with the 2016 model over the first six months of this year.
So my conclusion is that MOST of my riding is perfectly suited to the Zero. I rarely exceed 100 miles a day, even when I'm out joy-riding on weekends. The bike has more than enough range to get me to and from work, take a lunch time ride, and run errands after work. Even better, since it doesn't require warm up, and isn't harmed by very short rides (like riding to and from a train station less than a mile away for example) it is actually BETTER than my ICE motorcycles a majority of the time.
The issue is, most people don't look logically at their needs. They WANT the biggest/fastest/shiniest thing they can get their hands on. Most of the suggestions I read on this forum would only make Zeros more expensive (not less) and therefore even LESS desirable to the riding (and non-riding) public. Marketing is the issue; Zero should NOT be trying to reach existing riders; I think Zero would do better targeting NON-RIDERS (kind of like Honda did in the 60s with the Passport).
It wouldn't surprise me to learn a majority of riders have unrealistic ideas of themselves. I can't tell you HOW many times I've spoken to other riders at biker gatherings who claim to be avid riders, yet log less than 3,000 miles a year on their bikes. These are the same people who usually have a dresser style (touring) bike with all the bells and whistles, but they've never gone beyond their own State or maybe the neighboring one. I average about 18,000 miles a year (and that's gone down as I've gotten older and my wife has gotten more and more infirm and unable to ride with me).
I really believe that if people looked realistically at how they use their motorcycles, they would see that a Zero makes perfect sense. Just my $0.02.
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One other thing: Every weekend I ride up to the motorcycle hangout, Alice's Restaurant, on one of my motorcycles. My BMW RS and Triumph Bonneville gets noticed, as does my Royal Enfield. But when I ride up there on my Zero no one has ever seemed to pay any attention the bike and I have yet to have anyone run over and say "Great looking motorcycle, what is it and where can I get one." :'(
Actually, I have the opposite reaction whenever I go to biker hangouts with my Zero. Someone always comes up to me and asks me if it's one of those "electric bikes they've heard about." Most of them didn't think they'd ever get to see one in real life and more than one were surprised to hear there is a local dealership where they can go demo one and buy one of their own.
I started going to some local "Electric Vehicle Gatherings" and (so far) I've been the only motorcyclist present and I always seem to attract the biggest crowd.
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One other thing: Every weekend I ride up to the motorcycle hangout, Alice's Restaurant, on one of my motorcycles. My BMW RS and Triumph Bonneville gets noticed, as does my Royal Enfield. But when I ride up there on my Zero no one has ever seemed to pay any attention the bike and I have yet to have anyone run over and say "Great looking motorcycle, what is it and where can I get one." :'(
Actually, I have the opposite reaction whenever I go to biker hangouts with my Zero. Someone always comes up to me and asks me if it's one of those "electric bikes they've heard about." Most of them didn't think they'd ever get to see one in real life and more than one were surprised to hear there is a local dealership where they can go demo one and buy one of their own.
I started going to some local "Electric Vehicle Gatherings" and (so far) I've been the only motorcyclist present and I always seem to attract the biggest crowd.
I have been to a number of EV events over the past 10 years and my observation, at least here in the SF Bay Area, is that electric cars get a lot more attention from the public than electric motorcycles. Thanks to my Zero, I am only adding about 300 miles to my car's odometer each year - which doesn't seem to make much difference to my car's insurance premium, unfortunately. :(
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Yeah, oddly enough most of the attention I got at the last EV gathering was from people who owned electric cars. The general public seemed more interested in the electric cars (ESPECIALLY the Tesla Model 3 that was there for demo rides). That's understandable thanks to all the hoopla about that model ever since it was announced. Even I took it for a drive.
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I think Zero has lots to do on customer service before sales really takeoff. 100 % of my friends who bought BMW Evo scooter are ready to buy one again, and had (minor) early problems fixed very quickly. To the contrary, customer service for Zero can be totally unresponsive, and refuse handling major problems (like engine defect) out of commercial warranty even when in the company's responsability. This is not a good sign for the company itself, and it will be impossible for sales to takeoff if they handle customers and retailers this way. BMW does exactly the opposite and is really booming.
As for the sales, the numbers are very small. For France there sold 197 models in 2017 (http://www.csiam-fr.org/sites/default/files/fichier_pdf_presse/mtm_france_-_par_marque_0.pdf) when BMW Evo (electric scooter) sold 901 models in the same 12 months.
This is coherent with a 2000 sales per year figure (https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/tesla-of-electric-motorcycles-zero-motorcycles-shares-company-plans-2018-3), ie 10 per day globally. "The company builds about 2,000 motorcycles annually, with pricing running from $8,500 to over $10,000."
So this is not a 150 M$ company, but more a 10-20 M$ company. It seems that the sales diminished, probably due to a mix of quality issues and customer service (eco-friendly customer can accept issues, if they don't fear being stuck with a non working bike after a couple of years).
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My experience with recent BMW customer service: <RANT ON>
I owned a 2013 C650GT. It broke down FOUR times hundreds of miles from home. The first couple of times was within the three year/36K mile warranty. The bike was fixed, but it was still on me to figure out how to get home after the break down, and how to get the bike back after it was fixed.
The final time it died on me 200 miles from home was this past May (Memorial Day weekend). The timing chain had slipped and the valves self-destructed against the pistons. There was a recall on this issue less than a year after I picked up the scooter (BRAND new). That recall was done because that is one scary scenario. Both the servicing dealership and I reached out to BMW to see if there was anything they could do because a replacement engine was $4,000 in parts ALONE.
After a week of consideration, in the most polite way possible, they told me I could go **** myself as the bike was "too old." It may've been two years out of warranty but it was still less than 36,000 miles. Repeated requests got the same response. I ended up signing the POS over to the servicing dealer and walked away from it.
Up until this point I was a die-hard BMW fan. I've been riding them since 1985 and I'm a member of their 400,000 mile club. I'd heard tales of how their quality and customer service had grown progressively worse since the motorcycle division was taken over by the automotive division but this was my first time experiencing it myself. If BMW thinks I'll ever buy another vehicle from them (two OR four wheels) they are on some SERIOUS drugs. I will continue (grudgingly) being a customer of theirs because I do love my 1999 K1200LT and haven't found a new motorcycle I like as much. At 214,000 miles on the odometer, I think this is the last of the "Old School" BMWs. Nothing out of their factory since has the same longevity or durability. They'd rather you buy a new vehicle every three years (after your warranty expires) so they can tout their new bike/new car sales numbers to their stockholders. They no longer care about those of us who just want to keep our vehicles running for as long as possible.</RANT OFF>
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Well commercial warranty is one thing, but selling a bike which can be dangerous even if serviced correctly in a low mileage is certainly something you can act one. They might try to discourage you, but the easiest in this case is using your insurance legal coverage if you have one.
To be fair my expectations on Zero are now so low that i would be more than happy to have it make 36.000 miles before I throw it away (the engine broken at 12.000, a 4000 $ fix) :-(
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I know something about BMW quality as well..
Altough it was a car. Bought an ex-demo car, so allmost brand new (some 2000 km's on it)
Terrible car. BMW never fixed the gearbox, among other serious things, during warranty.
First and last bimmer for me. I'll never buy overrated crap from them again.
P. S I thinks BMW's old skool stuff is/looks great, but I have no experience regarding that..
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What BMW in the US and Zero outside US seemingly have in common is being unable to propose a decent customer service outside your home country, or thinking that unhappy customer will just let it go. Which also explains why BMW Evo is growing so quickly here, and have so many positive feedbacks...
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Maybe Zero can't make more bikes than they allready do.
So why should they do a campaign costing huge money?
Its hard to know, but I speculate that Zero currently is a unsustainable. Zero needs to sell more bikes or die. Zero may be breaking even right now, but they have a lot of debt. They have had regular cash injections until last year.
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There are good and bad service anecdotes for BMW or Zero. The BMW C evolution looks very mediocre to me for that price - it needs faster charging, more power, more range.
I think a lot of "bad service" is the responsibility of the dealer. My local dealer San Jose BMW/Zero has been poor at normal motorcycle stuff. The dealer says Zeros are not hard to work on, but it is specialized.
My experience working with Zero directly has been really good. I'm local to the headquarters, so I can go there for help. Zero is a lean operation, so I can imagine that if they are doing all the dealers work, they can get overwhelmed.
Its hard to have good data on reliability numbers of Zero, but from EMF and FaceBook, it sounds like Zero has software and EV hardware gremlins. My Zero has been good, but I have experienced some occational gremlins and the dealer has had the bike for a week and have not found any solution. The dealer is closed today and tomorrow, so Tuesday I will see if they have any solutions.
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Maybe Zero can't make more bikes than they allready do.
So why should they do a campaign costing huge money?
Its hard to know, but I speculate that Zero currently is a unsustainable. Zero needs to sell more bikes or die. Zero may be breaking even right now, but they have a lot of debt. They have had regular cash injections until last year.
I see it as a good thing they are trying to sell only their complete drivetrain + battery to projects.
An easy way of getting more money without too many risks.
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> Thanks to my Zero, I am only adding about 300 miles to my
> car's odometer each year - which doesn't seem to make much
> difference to my car's insurance premium, unfortunately. :(
My solution to that is to let other people drive my car and cover
my costs ( - : http://of.net/RED3
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I know something about BMW quality as well..
Altough it was a car. Bought an ex-demo car, so allmost brand new (some 2000 km's on it)
Terrible car. BMW never fixed the gearbox, among other serious things, during warranty.
First and last bimmer for me. I'll never buy overrated crap from them again.
P. S I thinks BMW's old skool stuff is/looks great, but I have no experience regarding that..
Pre-2000, BMW motorcycles had a well-earned reputation for reliability/durability. I had my original K100 for ten years and 158,000 problem free miles before it was stolen (and never recovered). My 1999 K1200LT has had some issues, but nothing I consider a deal-breaker and it has 214,000 miles on it now. I sold my 1996 R100RT to a friend of mine in 2000 when it had 40,000 miles on the odometer. He still owns it and still rides it regularly.
The modern BMWs? They're more interested in the kind of person who buys a new motorcycle every three or four years. Knowing that, I don't know why ANYONE would buy a used BMW because it is probably only a few months away from requiring major service. There's a reason BMW is near the BOTTOM of Consumer Reports reliability ranking; they EARNED it.
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I think there might an issue specific to Europe. My insurance (Mutuelles des Motards) told me they have half a dozen of cases just for France, all involving issues in Zero's responsability (charger / defective engines / ...).
Zero Europe waits customer to start suing them before treating these issues correctly. This is a pity, because while customers might be responsible in some rare cases (but the insurance will never support these), you have unhappy customers in most of these cases, as well as dealers who are stretched between Zero Europe and themselves. My dealer already reduced the square meters dedicated to Zero and stopped advertising. No way sales will take off this way - to the contrary.
There are good and bad service anecdotes for BMW or Zero. The BMW C evolution looks very mediocre to me for that price - it needs faster charging, more power, more range.
I think a lot of "bad service" is the responsibility of the dealer. My local dealer San Jose BMW/Zero has been poor at normal motorcycle stuff. The dealer says Zeros are not hard to work on, but it is specialized.
My experience working with Zero directly has been really good. I'm local to the headquarters, so I can go there for help. Zero is a lean operation, so I can imagine that if they are doing all the dealers work, they can get overwhelmed.
Its hard to have good data on reliability numbers of Zero, but from EMF and FaceBook, it sounds like Zero has software and EV hardware gremlins. My Zero has been good, but I have experienced some occational gremlins and the dealer has had the bike for a week and have not found any solution. The dealer is closed today and tomorrow, so Tuesday I will see if they have any solutions.
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One other thing: Every weekend I ride up to the motorcycle hangout, Alice's Restaurant, on one of my motorcycles. My BMW RS and Triumph Bonneville gets noticed, as does my Royal Enfield. But when I ride up there on my Zero no one has ever seemed to pay any attention the bike and I have yet to have anyone run over and say "Great looking motorcycle, what is it and where can I get one." [emoji22]
Actually, I have the opposite reaction whenever I go to biker hangouts with my Zero. Someone always comes up to me and asks me if it's one of those "electric bikes they've heard about." Most of them didn't think they'd ever get to see one in real life and more than one were surprised to hear there is a local dealership where they can go demo one and buy one of their own.
I started going to some local "Electric Vehicle Gatherings" and (so far) I've been the only motorcyclist present and I always seem to attract the biggest crowd.
I have been to a number of EV events over the past 10 years and my observation, at least here in the SF Bay Area, is that electric cars get a lot more attention from the public than electric motorcycles. Thanks to my Zero, I am only adding about 300 miles to my car's odometer each year - which doesn't seem to make much difference to my car's insurance premium, unfortunately. [emoji20]
State Farm has reduced rates for low mileage cars. It's a program called Drive Safe and Save. I use it for a couple low-mileage cars I own. E-mail me if you have any questions (I'm not on these forums very much):
jheth
@
yahoo
.
com
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I doubt the next leap in sales !!!
1. Same models since 2013
2. High depreciation (only symbolic price after 5 years)
3. As commuter vehicle too expensive (Honda NC / NC-X with DTC 100% better)
4. Poor quality / spare parts supply
5. Electromobility has arrived and nothing special anymore
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I doubt the next leap in sales !!!
1. Same models since 2013
2. High depreciation (only symbolic price after 5 years)
3. As commuter vehicle too expensive (Honda NC / NC-X with DTC 100% better)
4. Poor quality / spare parts supply
5. Electromobility has arrived and nothing special anymore
1. But upgraded EV parts inside
2. €8000 for a 2013 DS I don't find symbolic
3. As a commuter very cheap to ride and no maintenance besided brakes, tyres.
4. No problems for 45k km riding every weather, spare parts are there, if you have a good dealer buying them in time from Zero.
5.Still turning heads and questions at traffic light and when I arrive somewere or want to leave.
Just my experience of the oldest version of the current model.
I don't see people complaning about the old VW beetle or golf.
What is good just needs upgrading every year.
But on top of that new models would be welcome.
😎
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Can you really sell a 2013 Zero for 8000 €?
The last one in Europe was sold for less than 6000 €
The technology has also done nothing great. Only the battery was larger. But it's everywhere
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Can you really sell a 2013 Zero for 8000 €?
The last one in Europe was sold for less than 6000 €
The technology has also done nothing great. Only the battery was larger. But it's everywhere
My 2013DS with windscreen, handcaps, 22k km was €8000 at a Motoport dealer a year ago in the Netherlands.
At the time there was also 1 with 15k km for the same price, but without the 2 items and fhurter away.
At the moment 2016DS 16k km for €10,500:
https://www.autoscout24.nl/aanbod/zero-ds-zf12-5-abs-elektrisch-oranje-555e1cea-1755-4cbd-94dc-0026b9fb746f
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A year ago. Alright ;)
You can try to sell them now and inform us about the price suggestions you get
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As long every 2nd hand Zero is sold the prices will be oke.
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Do not talk and speculate!!!
Show that you still get 8000 € for your 2013 Zero ;D
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Do not talk and speculate!!!
Show that you still get 8000 € for your 2013 Zero ;D
I think not, added 23k km in 1 year.
So to get same price for a 1 year older bike with 2 times the range done would be..... weird, don't it?
But if they sold the same bike now I would buy it again for €8000.
But mostly I see nothing that cheap!!
😎
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Nobody will sell a 2013/14 Zero because he will not get any money for it anyway !!!
If you really bought a 2013 Zero for 8000 € a year ago, you've made the bad business of your life ;D
Here in Germany 2016 will be DSR´s
for 9900€ sale .
The price can be traded with security 8)
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I don't have €1900 spare money.
So if I see any DS for €8000 (or less) I would buy it again if I was looking......
Fact is there aren't any, so why bad deal?
I drive for 1 year now instead of nothing 😎
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Zero dealer was certainly pleased when you picked up the museum part for the price.
I would have saved the 1000 € and now a better bike :P
If you can not afford motorcycling you should let it
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....... 2013 and up are not museum part.....
....... €1900 price diference.....
....... I prefer riding now instead of waiting .....
....... your last line in last comment is stupid, thx for wasting my time thinking you were serious .....
Merry Xmis
😎
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This second hand market issue is a real problem - customers can change their mind, or move, or extend their family and need to buy a car. In this case, you are basically stuck with your bike. This is a problem you don't have if you buy an ICE bike (you know exactly for how much you can sell it) or even a BMW Evo scooter (there is an active second hand market).
It is of course not possible for Zero to "make this market" - Zero is a very small company with limited resources. But they could definitively be nicer with customers when big costly issues happen after the commercial warranty period. EV have a bad reputation for battery longevity, and Zero had several quality problems especially with the first models. I also understand that the situation in the US is much better than in Europe (might be timezone or language issues, or Zero putting a lower priority on Europe ?).
Nobody cares with replacing a minor part, or paying a bit more than usual to replace plastic part, but if customers know they might have the pay their bike's value in repairs, they just wont buy a used bike. If people are not able to sell a used Zero, then many people wont buy a new one.
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Moto 7575 I feel your pain (imagine Bill Clinton talking)
Any time you buy a used "whatever" it likely won't be as nice or last as long under your ownership as a new "whatever" but it's almost always cheaper in the long run.
I hate your motor went out but please either have it replaced or sell it for parts and the battery.
A cheap used vehicle is cheap because the new owner has to figure some repair costs into the purchase price.
Sale price + repair cost = less than new cost almost always.
Good luck man.
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No market for this. With other models you can resell for parts. Not with a Zero. I'm taking a different path - ongoing expertise + opening a case. Will let you know.
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Seem to be a lot of people looking for Zero powertrains for other uses. In France, maybe a river hydrofoil boat or an aircraft?