ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: Anubis-R on August 23, 2018, 03:53:37 PM
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HI everyone,
How can we stop charging an Energica at 85% ?
I'm using 60% a day, and want to increase my battery life.
So my aim is to charge up to 85% and came back home with 25%
I set 85% on the app and hit the "SET" button without any result whatever the status of EVA... On / Off / On while charging / Off while charging... :'(
Even with the smallest 6A current (1,3kW), I get to 100% in 5h... and I don't want to get up at 4 AM to unplug the Eva ^^ ::)
Does anyone knows how to manage to do that?
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Hi Anubis-R, It cannot be done (yet). The percentage setting on the app is the charge current, not the target SOC. The charge current can also be set on the bike now (updated since some months). I asked Energica the same question, because what you say, battery life, fan noise, power prices etc can all be reasons to automatically stop charging at a certain SOC.
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MMMhhh... ???
Well... if that really do impact the charge current, it should charge in 10h instead of 5 by setting it to 50%
But even by putting it to 45% yesterday, it continues to charge at 1,3kW and still shows "5h to reach 100%"
do you use this feature to reduce the charge current and affect the charging time then?
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We have another issue here ;) I charge at home (Europe) with a single phase 230V outlet, resulting in 3kW at 13 amps. If I would dial to 45% it would result in 1,3 kW. I do use the charge control feature (on the bike then) a lot to reduce current, because below 2kW the fan does not come on that loud. Neighbours did not complain yet, but one mentioned the fan made some noise.
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I am still waiting for someone to tell us that their battery has noticeably degraded due to its number of years in service or number of charges. There has been a lot of concern lately about how to extend battery life, but is this a real problem or are we just being "worry warts"?
I have always kept my battery pack fully charged to 100% at all times on all of the Zeros that I have owned, and I have yet to experience any obvious issues. While my 2014 S did suddenly stop charging to 100% and started to stop charging at 92% after 3 years in service, I don't know if that is because of some issue with the charger, or a bad battery cell that is charging faster than the other cells and causing the voltage to spike in the pack, shutting off the charger, or some other issue. However if you leave the charger plugged in long enough it will eventually reach a 100% charge.
My 2012 Zero never showed a hint of battery degradation, up until the day that Zero grabbed it back a couple of months ago. :(
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We have another issue here ;) I charge at home (Europe) with a single phase 230V outlet, resulting in 3kW at 13 amps.
So am I :) I'm from france and happy to have a home charger wich let me chose 6 Amp on the charger itself, resulting in a 1,3kW directly :) and the fan is never turned on :)
it begins to be turned on while putting a 8 Amp charge from the charger.
however, i would be interested in having a 0,6kW charge to get the bike at 85% or so in the morning...
I am still waiting for someone to tell us that their battery has noticeably degraded due to its number of years in service or number of charges. There has been a lot of concern lately about how to extend battery life, but is this a real problem or are we just being "worry warts"?
[...]
My 2012 Zero never showed a hint of battery degradation, up until the day that Zero grabbed it back a couple of months ago. :(
As we say in france "Better warning than curing" ;)
I prefer to avoid 0% and 100% to get the best from my battery
maybe it'll allow me to change it in 8 years instead of 5... Who knows? :)
especially because energica have less feedback than zero regarding battery life, i prefer to take care of it as much as i can :)
As far as I remember, Zero Motorcycles took larger margins whithin their BMS (Battery Management System) than Energica does, which is possible because Zero have a lighter vehicule so they can accept a 10% increase of the battery pack.
Some studies did demonstrate that even 10% less charge can result in twice the battery life, which is not a small difference regarding the price of batteries.
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That is a good point about the Energica batteries. Especially, as they use a different battery chemistry than does Zero. They also advertise a lower number of charges that their batteries are rated for, compared with Zero. I think Energica says 1200 full charge/discharge cycles, compared with Zero's advertised 3000 cycles. Plus, the Energica is a much larger investment than most Zero models. I can see how you wouldn't want to push the envelope if your didn't need to. Plus why take any chances, since Energica hasn't been on the consumer market all that long and no one has any long-term experience with their batteries' actual service life.
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If you are charging by plugging into a standard outlet there are many options:
1) you can buy a simple mechanical plug timer and set it to stay on for some amount of time, you just need to get back and switch it off before it turns on again 24 hours later. Something like this would work in North america : http://a.co/d/6vm9F67 its only $9 (Amazon also sells air of similar ones for $11) This one is also neat, it is just a simple "leave it on for 30 minutes, 3 hours or 6 hours" thing http://a.co/d/23LHyUY
2) you can get a digital plug timer, I believe this one has a "leave on for X amount of time, then turn off forever" mode: http://a.co/d/520biFJ
3) you can get a wifi enabled plug that probably has some ability to set timers or whatever through an App or something, this one is only $10: http://a.co/d/2wJYP0l (there are lots of options, most come in multiple packs, so I just selected the first one I found as a single outlet example) I have no idea if the compatible apps actually have the ability to turn the plug off after a certain amount of time (or possibly energy) but I believe that is a pretty basic function that would be implemented..
To get your bike to actually stop at a certain SOC, it would obviously need to know the SOC. I believe the J1772 protocol does transmit the SOC of the vehicle, so maybe there are J-stations that you can set to turn off at a certain SOC, I would bet that the Juice-Box would have that function if it exists. Alternatively you would need to either connect to your vehicle CAN bus, or possibly use a camera pointed at the dash to actually read the SOC to do something based on SOC, and that just seems like more work than it is worth.
-ryan
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We have another issue here ;) I charge at home (Europe) with a single phase 230V outlet, resulting in 3kW at 13 amps.
So am I :) I'm from france and happy to have a home charger wich let me chose 6 Amp on the charger itself, resulting in a 1,3kW directly :) and the fan is never turned on :)
it begins to be turned on while putting a 8 Amp charge from the charger.
Oops, thought you were US ;D You can regulate the charge current on the bike from 1 to 15 amp (or 70 amp when fast charge), with the mode switch and key in the ignition.
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Thanks for your answers
I'll use a mix of both solutions for the moment... until energica decides to add an option to limit the SoC during charging ::)
limit the current throught the mode switch do work, and I'll use a timer to stop charging after defined time
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I mostly don’t like mixing different vendor discussions in the same thread. Collating information from forum discussions is hard enough for me and readers of the wiki without topic shifting complicating things.
That said, I believe that Energica is using the same cell chemistry as Zero, just stacked “tall†not “wide†to get more DC voltage and work at lower currents. Let’s call this hypothesis: “112s1pâ€.
I’m also inclined to classify most battery degradation discussions here as “worry wort†class.
BUT batteries can degrade. I think so far those have been manufacturing defects and the more typical letting the battery sit unattended too long, but I’m just generalizing from some specific outcomes and there may be unidentified paths to degradation.
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HI everyone,
How can we stop charging an Energica at 85% ?
I'm using 60% a day, and want to increase my battery life.
So my aim is to charge up to 85% and came back home with 25%
I set 85% on the app and hit the "SET" button without any result whatever the status of EVA... On / Off / On while charging / Off while charging... :'(
Even with the smallest 6A current (1,3kW), I get to 100% in 5h... and I don't want to get up at 4 AM to unplug the Eva ^^ ::)
Does anyone knows how to manage to do that?
You can activate the LPR mode. The LPR mode will charge the bike up to 87%. Remember to clear it to ride the bike again.
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ZeroG> You can activate the LPR mode. The LPR mode will charge the bike up to 87%. Remember to clear it to ride the bike again.
"LPR: this refers to the automatic battery maintenance device during the winter period or long periods of rest.
"All Energica models are equipped with the LPR (Long Period Rest).
"This feature allows the maintenance and automatic battery balancing for a long period of time. The LPR keeps the battery in the optimum state of charge in order to preserve and extend the life of the battery pack just by leaving the motorcycle connected to a power outlet."
https://www.energicamotorusa.com/what-need-know-electric-motorcycles/
Yes, that's makes a lot of sense! It's a mode made especially to improve the longevity of the battery! And if you are especially concerned about that, you do it anytime you are leaving it overnight, instead of just long term storage.
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Thanks Guys for the LPR idea ;D
That's perfect for my daily use 8)
For your information, while using the LPR mode :
- it does not take into account the Amp limit. and it's not adjustable neither
--> it charge with the fan ON.That's not a big deal for me but it can be for some
- it stabilize at 80%, not 87%
--> fit me well but also may not be sufficient for some
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Interesting. Put well if it stabilizes at 80, going to 87% should be a very deterministic amount of time. So maybe you switch it back to normal charging a certain amount of time before you plan to leave.
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Thanks Guys for the LPR idea ;D
That's perfect for my daily use 8)
For your information, while using the LPR mode :
- it does not take into account the Amp limit. and it's not adjustable neither
--> it charge with the fan ON.That's not a big deal for me but it can be for some
- it stabilize at 80%, not 87%
--> fit me well but also may not be sufficient for some
Good point. Energica is working on the charge management algorithm. Upcoming firmware will add some new functionalities about charge termination and fan management.
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I was told that the Energica batteries use the same cells that are used in their parent company's satellites. If that's true, then I think they know those cells about as well as anyone could. I imagine they're very stable and are designed to last a couple of decades.
Unless you're storing your bike for winter, I wouldn't worry. Just use it as is most convenient. In five years time you'll be able to replace the battery and increase your range significantly. No doubt that's something you'll want to do because the Energica's range is terrible. Or just buy a better bike then and get something a lot lighter that handles better at the same time. :-)
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That is a good point about the Energica batteries. Especially, as they use a different battery chemistry than does Zero. They also advertise a lower number of charges that their batteries are rated for, compared with Zero. I think Energica says 1200 full charge/discharge cycles, compared with Zero's advertised 3000 cycles. Plus, the Energica is a much larger investment than most Zero models. I can see how you wouldn't want to push the envelope if your didn't need to. Plus why take any chances, since Energica hasn't been on the consumer market all that long and no one has any long-term experience with their batteries' actual service life.
Energica uses the same chemistry than zero (NMC lithium nichel cobalt manganese). The fact Energica declares less cycles than zero depends on the fact that Energica figure is real, zero is a number that makes no sense at all. Best lifepo4 batteries (much lower tendity and performances) are rated for 3000 cycles but on the paper. On real use probably 2500. No way that zero batteries can last 3000 cycles (especially because I know the brand of the cell and I personally tested them with accelerated aging tests). I think that to have a realistic number you need to divide by two the zero data.
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Take 2 Identical batteries, one of them you charge to 4.20 volts and discharge to 2.8 volts over the course of its life. The other you only charge to 4.00 volts and discharge to 3.00 volts. Guess what, the second one is going to last much longer. Granted you are not using the full capacity but you are greatly increasing its life span.
What I am trying to say here is, it mostly boils down to how one programs the BMS to charge and discharge the batteries to determine long they will last.
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> I was told that the Energica batteries use the same cells that are used in their parent company's satellites. If that's true, then I think they know those cells about as well as anyone could. I imagine they're very stable and are designed to last a couple of decades.
Nice PR. But the battery warranty doesn't indicate that level of confidence.
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Take 2 Identical batteries, one of them you charge to 4.20 volts and discharge to 2.8 volts over the course of its life. The other you only charge to 4.00 volts and discharge to 3.00 volts. Guess what, the second one is going to last much longer. Granted you are not using the full capacity but you are greatly increasing its life span.
What I am trying to say here is, it mostly boils down to how one programs the BMS to charge and discharge the batteries to determine long they will last.
I read a lot of articles regarding battery ageing, and as said by ashveratu, the less stress it gets, the longer it last.
I will talk here about real % of the battery capacity, not the indicated % on dashboard which is calculated regarding the range used by the BMS)
Any Li-ion battery can last (considering it dead while loosing 10% of capacity) :
- about 300 cycles if using 90% of Real capacity
- about 1000 cycles if using 75% of Real Capacity --> smartphones for example
- about 3000 cycles if using 50% of Real capacity --> std EV for example
- about 5000 cycles if using 25% of real capacity --> EV using 50% of its range for example
- even longer for satellites that are launched to last for decades, using 10% or so of the whole battery capacity
we have same scheme regarding Intensity and voltage, basically, the less stress it get, the the longer it last.
that is why I consider important to avoid charging at 100% / discharging at 0% and to limit the current to slow down the charge.
interesting link recently updated for those who want to read more ;)
https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries (https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries)
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The general idea beside your post is correct, but there are few considerations that I want to share. Every battery chemistry behaves differently. This also apply to same chemistries and different manufacturer. Given this, there are few general rules at least for lithium cobalt manganese. Those batteries are extremely conservative in terms of exchanged Ah. It means that if a 100Ah cell is rated for 1000 cycles at standard conditions (25°C 1C discharge down to 3V, 0.3C charge, charge termination at 0.05C and voltage 4.2v), if you run the cell with half cycles (only 50Ah exchanged) it will last 2000 cycles more or less.
So in this case you will charge the cell twice the time for half of the range - > more or less same total mileage.
There are factors that will shrink down the total amount of Ah that a cell can handle in its life that are mainly:
- average temperature: higher average temperatures will significantly affect the cycle life and calendar life;
- charge termination voltage: the very top part of the charge is somehow stressing for the cell (not over 80 or 90% but pushing to 4.2 or even higher voltage can divide by 2 the cycle life).
- average and peak discharge rate or charge rate.
The lowest part of the charge is not (my personal opinion after hundreds of ours of tests) so important for the cell life (at least if you don't force it to extreme undervoltage).
Even less for LiFePO4 cells (accelerated aging tests on a couple of manufacturer didn't show any degradation after several complete discharge to 0.1V).
Given this, I know that Energica batteries are managed in an extremely conservative way.
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HI everyone,
How can we stop charging an Energica at 85% ?
I'm using 60% a day, and want to increase my battery life.
So my aim is to charge up to 85% and came back home with 25%
I set 85% on the app and hit the "SET" button without any result whatever the status of EVA... On / Off / On while charging / Off while charging... :'(
Even with the smallest 6A current (1,3kW), I get to 100% in 5h... and I don't want to get up at 4 AM to unplug the Eva ^^ ::)
Does anyone knows how to manage to do that?
Figure out how many miles per hour of charge you get and set an AC timer to turn off at the correct time for around 85%.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I am still using the DigiNow 2.5 controller to taper and stop the charge at 111V or 112V, and it is very reliable and maintains cell balance as expected.
I’m glad I don’t rely on the onboard charger and a timer. The inrush on that charger is just tempting fate.
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I am still using the DigiNow 2.5 controller to taper and stop the charge at 111V or 112V, and it is very reliable and maintains cell balance as expected.
I’m glad I don’t rely on the onboard charger and a timer. The inrush on that charger is just tempting fate.
The Zero chargers slowly come up to full power. No real surge.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I am still using the DigiNow 2.5 controller to taper and stop the charge at 111V or 112V, and it is very reliable and maintains cell balance as expected.
I’m glad I don’t rely on the onboard charger and a timer. The inrush on that charger is just tempting fate.
The Zero chargers slowly come up to full power. No real surge.
The onboard Calex chargers don’t have inrush protection on the AC side. This makes me doubt the safety of using them and particularly with upstream timers.
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The onboard Calex chargers don’t have inrush protection on the AC side. This makes me doubt the safety of using them and particularly with upstream timers.
What's the difference between the timer and an AC switch?
An AC timer is an AC switch. I just don't see an issue here.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The onboard Calex chargers don’t have inrush protection on the AC side. This makes me doubt the safety of using them and particularly with upstream timers.
What's the difference between the timer and an AC switch?
An AC timer is an AC switch. I just don't see an issue here.
A timer operates a switch. A switch breaks a circuit.
I’m recommending against a switch. I’m in favor of software control of a solid state switching power supply, reducing the power to zero in a reasonable rampdown rate.
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From January onwards Energica will offer a software update, which (among other features) enables stopping the charge at a preset level from the dashboard.
https://www.energicamotor.com/9789-intermot-2018-energica-my2019/ (https://www.energicamotor.com/9789-intermot-2018-energica-my2019/)
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It also sounds like they are increasing the fast charging speed which will be nice. Like the idea of the 2019 models getting traction control.
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It also sounds like they are increasing the fast charging speed which will be nice. Like the idea of the 2019 models getting traction control.
I thought they already had traction control? That is what I seem to recall from reading road tests of the Energica models. ???
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Richard, I have an EVA 107 and traction control is not on it. I learned with my Zero SR how violently you can get removed from the bike if the rear tire breaks loose and can only imagine how that would play out on the Energica.
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Richard, I have an EVA 107 and traction control is not on it. I learned with my Zero SR how violently you can get removed from the bike if the rear tire breaks loose and can only imagine how that would play out on the Energica.
I am surprised at that. I know that the BMW scooter has traction control and I sure thought that the Energica bikes did also. I wouldn't think you could ride them in their sport mode without that type of control. Those things have a beast of a motor and many public roads are not all that great when it comes to traction, especially during the winter when you can suddenly hit ice, flowing water, sand and lots of wet leaves.
Zero has an excuse as they are a bunch of cheapskates when it comes to the latest electronic do-dads, but I thought Energica was the leader when it came to electronic innovation. ;)
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I’m recommending against a switch. I’m in favor of software control of a solid state switching power supply, reducing the power to zero in a reasonable rampdown rate.
I am interested in the reason why stopping "brutally" a charge could damage something.
In particular, I use a fast charger that reduces the charge speed at the end of its charging session (that is naturally linked with the charge ending by a constant voltage level). But if for one reason I decide to stop the charge before the end, I pull the plug (before the charger). I expect that this "manual switch" does not damage anything...
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Richard,
Hey better late than never! On dry roads you can push an Eva 107 pretty hard with no problems. But if there is debris or wet conditions you need to tone it down. No question all that torque is addicting which is why it is hard to get back on a Zero SR after riding the Eva 107. But you have to respect it or you will learn the hard way. Zero could do a lot better in the electronic do-dads than they do. Simply offer them as options. Not everyone wants traction control and many other do-dads. But some do and are willing to pay for them. Somehow Energica managed to figure out DCFC, regen and now traction control. Yes I know Zero has regen but Energica's is far superior. It is what every wants based on all of the discussions in the Zero section here. Maybe someday Zero will figure it out. Vinny
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What Zero needs is a little competition in their price range, like they were getting when the Brammo Empulse was being marketed. Why spend any money to make big changes to your product if you have the only game in town (at that price range)? I think that if the Energica was selling for under $20K, Zero would be in trouble and likely the pressure would be on to make real progress to their platform.
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Richard,
Completely agree. It is obvious Zero does not see Energica as competition. But I also don't see Energica being able sell under 20K either. The Energica bikes are physically larger and the specs are a lot higher than Zero. Really curious to see where the H-D Live Wire fits into this mix.
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Richard,
Completely agree. It is obvious Zero does not see Energica as competition. But I also don't see Energica being able sell under 20K either. The Energica bikes are physically larger and the specs are a lot higher than Zero. Really curious to see where the H-D Live Wire fits into this mix.
I agree regarding Energica's prices. My guess is that they are loosing at least $5K, if not more, on every bike that they sell. You may recall that when the Energica bikes were introduced to the U.S. the selling prices were in the $30K-$40K range. I think the Energica motorcycles are being subsidized by the company, likely by both profits from their other divisions as well as money made on the "carbon credits" market, so that they can penetrate and grow market share in the U.S. I wonder how their pricing in the EU compares with their pricing in the U.S.?
Regarding the LiveWire: H-D has said several times that this is going to be a "premium" product, probably like their CVO stuff. So my guess is that it will sell in the $30K to $40K USD range. They will go for few sales, lots of free press and pats on the back and receive allocates from environmentalists for reducing global warming - while their big ICE twins go rumbling by with all of the emission stuff, along with their mufflers, removed by their owners. ::)
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This may have been covered elsewhere but I thought it was applicable to the OP...
I thought I found in my research that Energica's have a larger battery than is published because 11.7kw is what is available for use and the pack is actually 13.1 or 13.3 in size. If that's true, isn't it already being limited under 100% because 100% of 11.7 is only 89% of 13.1.
so by limiting it to 85% of 11.7 aren't you at 76% of 13.1?
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Tango,
The total size of the Energica's battery is 13.5kWh and useable is 11.7 kWh. This is what makes comparing battery size confusing because Zero gives total capacity, not useable capacity.
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Tango,
The total size of the Energica's battery is 13.5kWh and useable is 11.7 kWh. This is what makes comparing battery size confusing because Zero gives total capacity, not useable capacity.
Just subtract 13.5% from the total capacity and you will be close enough to the usable.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My 2018 16.2 kWh Zero S takes about 15 kWh at the wall to fully recharge from "0". So that should tell you something about the actual capacity of Zero batteries, compared with the advertised capacity, depending upon what electrical efficiency you think their onboard chargers operate at.
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Richard, the capacity of the battery should measure how much electrical work the battery can deliver. That means that you should also add the efficiency of the battery charge, and the efficiency of the battery discharge. That makes a lot of unknowns...
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My 2018 16.2 kWh Zero S takes about 15 kWh at the wall to fully recharge from "0". So that should tell you something about the actual capacity of Zero batteries, compared with the advertised capacity, depending upon what electrical efficiency you think their onboard chargers operate at.
Sounds about right. We normally cannot access the very top of the possible charge as well as the very bottom, which helps the battery life.
-Don-
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My 2018 16.2 kWh Zero S takes about 15 kWh at the wall to fully recharge from "0". So that should tell you something about the actual capacity of Zero batteries, compared with the advertised capacity, depending upon what electrical efficiency you think their onboard chargers operate at.
Sounds about right. We normally cannot access the very top of the possible charge as well as the very bottom, which helps the battery life.
-Don-
so I think this above answers my original question - Yes, the battery already has built in battery longevity tactics (you can only use 85% of battery capacity when you charge it to 100%) so limiting the charge shouldn't have a dramatic effect on increasing battery longevity.
Thanks for the responses!
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I am interested in the reason why stopping "brutally" a charge could damage something.
...
I can't speak for BTR, but one issue is arcing. EV plugs all have shorter pins for
signalling, so that the station can stop power flow before the expensive silver-coated
high-current contacts pull apart. If you are in the habit of unplugging a household
cable under load, you can probably see the effects of arcing on the plug. This can
cause increased resistance, let's call it R, and then power becomes heat at P=I^2R
current squared time resistance, which can, as R increases, melt outlet or worse.