ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: evcognito on August 19, 2018, 02:08:28 AM
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Hello all!
We are an electric motorcycle startup midway into the build of our first Sport-bike style prototype.
We're currently operating in "Stealth" mode but plan to unveil our production model and final stats at the end of the year, with production beginning in 2019.
FYI In an effort to make our production model appeal to the widest possible range of riders as well as to maintain a genuine discussion without turning this onto a "self promotion" post we'd like to stay anonymous which, we know, makes a broad topic broader...
We're looking for feature requests, EV wishlists and concerns you may have. Most importantly though, we'd like your help to identify and fix any common objections you may know about towards electric motorcycles. This being the only forum we've found dedicated to electric motorcycles, we thought it was fitting to begin our search here.
A bit about us and our methodology:
- Were a group of engineers with backgrounds in Aerospace, Marine, Automotive, data analytics and manufacturing engineering located in southern California.
- We believe wholeheartedly in vertical integration. We have and plan on continuing to design, manufacture and assemble nearly every component in house. While it drives the need for more infrastructure and generates much more work, it also guarantees design freedom, the lowest possible costs and ensures we can maintain a level of quality not feasible or affordable from overseas sources.
- As we understand it there are 3 main issues with converting riders to electric (in our assumed order of importance):
1. Cost - Current electric motorcycles start at around $11K for the most basic example and can approach $40K+. For that money you could have the best gas bike around and still have enough money left over for track days, an enclosed trailer and a second daily commuter. Costs must be comparable to the gas equivalents,. Most importantly however, the bikes quality, performance and aesthetics must be comparable. @~$11k there's a huge market (Yamaha R6, CBR600, moster 797 etc) however the "equivalent" electric bikes either don't exist or start at twice the price.
2. Range - As with all electric vehicles, range anxiety is almost always the #1 performance concern. With new battery tech and higher efficiency motors/ power electronics new EV's are very close to being able to match what a person could reasonably expect to drive in a day. We believe our bike (as well as other EVs) have just about achieved that, and now its a matter of educating buyers and ensuring charge infrastructure is available to use. 99% of motorcycle trips between stops are <50 miles. Our goal is to make this more than possible with even our lowest capacity model and no change to riding style.
3. Emotion - People love the noise of a sport bike's engine. Us included. While it can get tiresome in traffic or city driving, there isn't much that compares to it at races or on the track. While we cant match the noise, we do think we can replace that emotion with something different. A powerful, clean looking and silent sport bike with loads of instant torque is a very different feeling. You're no longer saturated with engine noise, you're now focused on the sound of where you are and whats around you. On the road this is a safety benefit, but when you're out for a cruise this creates a completely new and thoroughly enjoyable experience.
The Bike:
- Our prototype/ planned first production model is a small-midsized sport bike with a slightly more relaxed riding position to make daily commute comfortable (think Yamaha R3 riding style)
- Its a full fairing, slim bodied bike weighing around 420 lbs for the 16kWh version (ready to ride)
- In-house designed and built, liquid cooled li-ion battery pack designed for 50% load continuous duty in hot weather. 3 pack sizes; ~8kWh, ~16kWh and ~24KWh will be sold with expected city/highway ranges of 90, 180 and 270 miles respectively.
- Included and built-in level 1 AND 2 charging capability with a max charge rate of at least 40A @240V (~2 miles per minute of charge)
- In house designed 100kW peak power motor and inverter that can handle 60kW continually.
- Direct drive belt and near zero overall maintenance. The coolant system is fully sealed, no oil to change, no filters to clean. Just tire pressure, brake fluid and belt tension checks.
- Hope to have the 8 kWh model sell for ~$11k and the largest pack would be less than $18k. Significantly, this is an actual, delivered to your home price. Charger, 100kw and options included. Also, this cost does not include any tax rebates you may have.
We do acknowledge this is still a chunk of change and will constantly be trying to lower sales price. Not just cost to build. We want the "can afford it" and "want to buy it" venn diagram to basically be a single circle. Unfortunately, much of the possible price decrease can only come with increased sales numbers, which will take some time to achieve.
Obviously anyone can list off some specs and call it a day, but we sincerely believe in our ability to achieve this. Due to owning the design, manufacture and assembly of almost every component we are uniquely positioned to make this be whatever we'd like it to be. It just comes down to choosing our targets.
So that's our take on things, what would you guys like to see and what thoughts do you have about our plans? Ideas big and small are welcome!
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It sounds to me like you have things pretty well worked out on paper. But getting there at an affordable price is going to be really tough. Plus, developing a retail outlet, distribution, service and parts network is not going to be any fun. You are going to need deep pockets to get off the ground with your project. All I can say is good luck!
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If it's not capable of DC fast charging, preferably CCS combo (like Energicas), then it will be dead on arrival.
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If it's not capable of DC fast charging, preferably CCS combo (like Energicas), then it will be dead on arrival.
But how much will DC fast charging raise the cost? I was just at my BMW dealer who sells Energicas and they had 2017, 2018 and 2019 models on the showroom floor. Going for $25K and up. That is not a price range that is going to generate a lot of sales.
I think most people that would be looking for a moderately priced electric motorcycle are not going to need or want to pay for DC charging. As I see it, the market really needs a well-designed and affordable electric motorcycle for commuting and weekend rides. Let the IC motorcycles handle long distances where DC charging would be an advantage, but fueling with gas is more in line with what riders are comfortable with.
The IC motorcycle owners that might be thinking of riding electric that I have talked to over the years are more interested in range on a single charge than for day rides. I don't think that they want to try to locate a DC charging station while they are out having fun. And it doesn't help that charging stations of all types tend to be vandalized after a while and poorly maintained because they are not manned 24/7 like a gas station and the companies that build them are better at installation than maintenance. In California, there are plans to build thousands of L2 charging stations using grant, utility company and legal-punishment money, but no one is talking about who plans to maintain them and where the money and staff to do so will come from. The thought seems to be that after you build them you can rack up political brownie points and then forget about them, while you go on to build more. ???
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It sounds to me like you have things pretty well worked out on paper. But getting there at an affordable price is going to be really tough. Plus, developing a retail outlet, distribution, service and parts network is not going to be any fun. You are going to need deep pockets to get off the ground with your project. All I can say is good luck!
Yes, its a big expensive project. We definitely don't have any doubts about that lol
Distribution, sales locations and servicing methods are a big priority for us. A good way to lose customers is to cut off all contact after taking their cash. We'll need to have a quick way to diagnose and fix any issues people have from day one. We have a few options in work but this is a big source of effort right now.
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If it's not capable of DC fast charging, preferably CCS combo (like Energicas), then it will be dead on arrival.
DC fast charging is not likely something we will include early on... Its not written out yet, but the effort to reward ratio is surprisingly poor. For example, a 60 amp level two charger will fully charge a 16kWh battery in a little over an hour. No charger, regardless of if its level two or DC should charge li-ion batteries faster than about 25 minutes or else you would hurt the lifespan of the cells. It's a lithium cell chemistry problem more than an EV pack problem. In fact, with a battery as small as 24kWh we can pretty much achieve the max safe charge rate with only high amperage level II chargers. DC fast chargers make loads of sense for cars where a large number of cells in parallel can share the load without being overburdened but with bikes its less of a slam dunk. Not worthless of course, but not our top priority. We'd like to gear people towards thinking about it as "how many miles can I get from 1 minute of charging?". With level two charging we can already achieve ~2 miles per minute and with a bit more work we could get up to ~3.5 miles per minute of mixed hwy/city riding. More if you're trying to stretch the range.
Cost wise, building a charger capable of DC fast charging and level 1/2 charging is not much more expensive than just level II. It's more of a design resource issue at the moment. Eventually It will be added, just maybe not rev 1. Not having it certainly wouldn't delay our launch.
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I own and ride a Zero SR 13. Great bike. It sounds like you want to build a "better" one of those, and that should be able to be done, but I don't know if you can sell your superior design for less money; that's up to you. One thing that may help is to not do EVERYTHING in house but outsource high quality items like mirrors, headlights, etc. Go with LED headlight(s) instead of the H4s that Zero uses: less power consumption while providing better light. But, then you probably already knew that. A bit more range would be "nice", but I'm pretty much ready to get off and take a break after about 100 miles anyway, so I don't suffer too much from range anxiety. Mine has a charge tank so it charges fairly quickly. Quick enough for me anyway. I tour on an IC bike, so I use the machines much differently. More cost to own multiple bikes, but more versatility. The performance of electrics is already pretty stunning so I wouldn't think that you'd have to feel that you have to go overboard there; I'd rather have more range than better 80-100 mph performance because I never do that on my Zero anyway.
I'd love to see a really aerodynamic fairing and windshield for electric bikes. Nothing seems to kill the range faster than 70 mph against a headwind. Make something that cuts through the wind better and you solve a bunch of problems all at once.
The Yamaha R3 is an interesting "target" bike as it's not very fast, doesn't offer fully adjustable suspension and ABS is optional, but is only about $6K, about half of your entry bike, so not the same market at all. The Zero comes with ABS standard, nice fully adjustable Showa suspension and penty fast enough, but $15K+. Perhaps you might want target something else in the Yamaha lineup like the FZ-07... Or perhaps you are targeting the ergonomics of the R3, in which case nevermind.
One of the things I love about the Zero is the Eco mode and, even better, the Custom mode. This turns it into a wonderful beginner's bike! No clutch, no shifting and I can limit the torque and top speed with my phone app so even a rank beginner can feel comfortable and not overwhelmed, especially because it's quiet and so much less intimidating. The more folks we can get into the sport the healthier the industry will be. It would be an interesting ad campaign for a "beginner's" bike that has 120 ft. lbs of torque and can do 115 mph!
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I own and ride a Zero SR 13. Great bike. It sounds like you want to build a "better" one of those, and that should be able to be done, but I don't know if you can sell your superior design for less money; that's up to you. One thing that may help is to not do EVERYTHING in house but outsource high quality items like mirrors, headlights, etc. Go with LED headlight(s) instead of the H4s that Zero uses: less power consumption while providing better light. But, then you probably already knew that. A bit more range would be "nice", but I'm pretty much ready to get off and take a break after about 100 miles anyway, so I don't suffer too much from range anxiety. Mine has a charge tank so it charges fairly quickly. Quick enough for me anyway. I tour on an IC bike, so I use the machines much differently. More cost to own multiple bikes, but more versatility. The performance of electrics is already pretty stunning so I wouldn't think that you'd have to feel that you have to go overboard there; I'd rather have more range than better 80-100 mph performance because I never do that on my Zero anyway.
I'd love to see a really aerodynamic fairing and windshield for electric bikes. Nothing seems to kill the range faster than 70 mph against a headwind. Make something that cuts through the wind better and you solve a bunch of problems all at once.
The Yamaha R3 is an interesting "target" bike as it's not very fast, doesn't offer fully adjustable suspension and ABS is optional, but is only about $6K, about half of your entry bike, so not the same market at all. The Zero comes with ABS standard, nice fully adjustable Showa suspension and penty fast enough, but $15K+. Perhaps you might want target something else in the Yamaha lineup like the FZ-07... Or perhaps you are targeting the ergonomics of the R3, in which case nevermind.
One of the things I love about the Zero is the Eco mode and, even better, the Custom mode. This turns it into a wonderful beginner's bike! No clutch, no shifting and I can limit the torque and top speed with my phone app so even a rank beginner can feel comfortable and not overwhelmed, especially because it's quiet and so much less intimidating. The more folks we can get into the sport the healthier the industry will be. It would be an interesting ad campaign for a "beginner's" bike that has 120 ft. lbs of torque and can do 115 mph!
Thanks for the reply!
We'll add a vote for LED vs Xenon! I'm personally a fan of lots of off the shelf mirrors, brake levers, handle bar controls and even grips. I do think we'll end up purchasing some small performance bits like those early on. It'll really come down to the cost and time in the moment. With the right set up we can crank out a years worth of brake levers in a day for dollars a piece, it'll just be a question of if that day is needed for something less "replaceable". To your point, we plan to find (and have found) alternative outside sources for all of the small "hot-swapable" parts. This gives us a great deal of flexibility with both design and schedule.
With regard to the yamaha, We mentioned the R3 because it's a comfortable bike to ride on the road as well as the track which is what we're shooting for. Also, its an extremely well known and popular bike to draw ride style comparisons to. Our seating position is a bit sportier but overall similar. Performance-wise, at 100kW and 420 lbs the bike will have the pull of the 600cc bikes it will be competing with cost-wise.
Aerodynamics are very important to us as well and luckily go hand in hand well with aesthetics. We're fortunate enough to have a partnership with Ansys and have some of the best software available to minimize drag. We expect the full fairings as well as our battery cooling/ continuous amp capability to greatly improve highway range.
I'm glad you mentioned adding custom ride settings. That was one of the things that first turned me onto electric motorcycles. You can have an absolute beast of a performance bike, but flip a switch and it can behave like any regular daily commuter or learner bike. Nothing to be afraid of and can be as relaxed or aggressive as you'd like! We're very excited to start tuning ride modes...
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DC fast charging is not likely something we will include early on... Its not written out yet, but the effort to reward ratio is surprisingly poor. For example, a 60 amp level two charger will fully charge a 16kWh battery in a little over an hour. No charger, regardless of if its level two or DC should charge li-ion batteries faster than about 25 minutes or else you would hurt the lifespan of the cells. It's a lithium cell chemistry problem more than an EV pack problem. In fact, with a battery as small as 24kWh we can pretty much achieve the max safe charge rate with only high amperage level II chargers. DC fast chargers make loads of sense for cars where a large number of cells in parallel can share the load without being overburdened but with bikes its less of a slam dunk. Not worthless of course, but not our top priority. We'd like to gear people towards thinking about it as "how many miles can I get from 1 minute of charging?". With level two charging we can already achieve ~2 miles per minute and with a bit more work we could get up to ~3.5 miles per minute of mixed hwy/city riding. More if you're trying to stretch the range.
Cost wise, building a charger capable of DC fast charging and level 1/2 charging is not much more expensive than just level II. It's more of a design resource issue at the moment. Eventually It will be added, just maybe not rev 1. Not having it certainly wouldn't delay our launch.
And what will be the mass of that 60A charger be? DC is an inlet and some black magic boxes for communication and switching etc. Iirc correctly my diy Chademo was just around two kilo, with the inlet being the heaviest part of it.
Also, will it be single phase or does it also accept 3 phase?
I own and ride a Zero SR 13. Great bike. It sounds like you want to build a "better" one of those, and that should be able to be done, but I don't know if you can sell your superior design for less money; that's up to you. One thing that may help is to not do EVERYTHING in house but outsource high quality items like mirrors, headlights, etc. Go with LED headlight(s) instead of the H4s that Zero uses: less power consumption while providing better light. But, then you probably already knew that. A bit more range would be "nice", but I'm pretty much ready to get off and take a break after about 100 miles anyway, so I don't suffer too much from range anxiety. Mine has a charge tank so it charges fairly quickly. Quick enough for me anyway. I tour on an IC bike, so I use the machines much differently. More cost to own multiple bikes, but more versatility. The performance of electrics is already pretty stunning so I wouldn't think that you'd have to feel that you have to go overboard there; I'd rather have more range than better 80-100 mph performance because I never do that on my Zero anyway.
I'd love to see a really aerodynamic fairing and windshield for electric bikes. Nothing seems to kill the range faster than 70 mph against a headwind. Make something that cuts through the wind better and you solve a bunch of problems all at once.
The Yamaha R3 is an interesting "target" bike as it's not very fast, doesn't offer fully adjustable suspension and ABS is optional, but is only about $6K, about half of your entry bike, so not the same market at all. The Zero comes with ABS standard, nice fully adjustable Showa suspension and penty fast enough, but $15K+. Perhaps you might want target something else in the Yamaha lineup like the FZ-07... Or perhaps you are targeting the ergonomics of the R3, in which case nevermind.
One of the things I love about the Zero is the Eco mode and, even better, the Custom mode. This turns it into a wonderful beginner's bike! No clutch, no shifting and I can limit the torque and top speed with my phone app so even a rank beginner can feel comfortable and not overwhelmed, especially because it's quiet and so much less intimidating. The more folks we can get into the sport the healthier the industry will be. It would be an interesting ad campaign for a "beginner's" bike that has 120 ft. lbs of torque and can do 115 mph!
Thanks for the reply!
We'll add a vote for LED vs Xenon! I'm personally a fan of lots of off the shelf mirrors, brake levers, handle bar controls and even grips. I do think we'll end up purchasing some small performance bits like those early on. It'll really come down to the cost and time in the moment. With the right set up we can crank out a years worth of brake levers in a day for dollars a piece, it'll just be a question of if that day is needed for something less "replaceable". To your point, we plan to find (and have found) alternative outside sources for all of the small "hot-swapable" parts. This gives us a great deal of flexibility with both design and schedule.
With regard to the yamaha, We mentioned the R3 because it's a comfortable bike to ride on the road as well as the track which is what we're shooting for. Also, its an extremely well known and popular bike to draw ride style comparisons to. Our seating position is a bit sportier but overall similar. Performance-wise, at 100kW and 420 lbs the bike will have the pull of the 600cc bikes it will be competing with cost-wise.
Aerodynamics are very important to us as well and luckily go hand in hand well with aesthetics. We're fortunate enough to have a partnership with Ansys and have some of the best software available to minimize drag. We expect the full fairings as well as our battery cooling/ continuous amp capability to greatly improve highway range.
I'm glad you mentioned adding custom ride settings. That was one of the things that first turned me onto electric motorcycles. You can have an absolute beast of a performance bike, but flip a switch and it can behave like any regular daily commuter or learner bike. Nothing to be afraid of and can be as relaxed or aggressive as you'd like! We're very excited to start tuning ride modes...
Do go for ots mirrors, levers etc, work on the most important parts like battery, motor etc first. Nobody is going to walk away from the bike because there are some ots bits and bobs on it.
Considering the L1 charging side, being able to (slow) destination charge my Zero with just a regular kettle lead is a godsend.
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Your planned stats sound incredible, really hope you are able to develop that. I've owned 2 zeros (currently a 2017 SR) and am hoping on upgrading to an ego around 2020. If this bike comes out before then i would definitely give it consideration. The fairing and cooling system are an advantage over zero.
I agree that DC fast charging isnt a necessity. To me this is only important for long distant travel, and until infrastructure and range of bikes increase it won't be really important. Though if you are able to develop a 24kwh 270mile range bike, it sounds like it would be really useful on that.
For me personally, I am a performance junkie so i gravitate to the bikes with the most power and good design.
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DC fast charging is not likely something we will include early on... Its not written out yet, but the effort to reward ratio is surprisingly poor. For example, a 60 amp level two charger will fully charge a 16kWh battery in a little over an hour. No charger, regardless of if its level two or DC should charge li-ion batteries faster than about 25 minutes or else you would hurt the lifespan of the cells. It's a lithium cell chemistry problem more than an EV pack problem. In fact, with a battery as small as 24kWh we can pretty much achieve the max safe charge rate with only high amperage level II chargers. DC fast chargers make loads of sense for cars where a large number of cells in parallel can share the load without being overburdened but with bikes its less of a slam dunk. Not worthless of course, but not our top priority. We'd like to gear people towards thinking about it as "how many miles can I get from 1 minute of charging?". With level two charging we can already achieve ~2 miles per minute and with a bit more work we could get up to ~3.5 miles per minute of mixed hwy/city riding. More if you're trying to stretch the range.
Cost wise, building a charger capable of DC fast charging and level 1/2 charging is not much more expensive than just level II. It's more of a design resource issue at the moment. Eventually It will be added, just maybe not rev 1. Not having it certainly wouldn't delay our launch.
And what will be the mass of that 60A charger be? DC is an inlet and some black magic boxes for communication and switching etc. Iirc correctly my diy Chademo was just around two kilo, with the inlet being the heaviest part of it.
Also, will it be single phase or does it also accept 3 phase?
I own and ride a Zero SR 13. Great bike. It sounds like you want to build a "better" one of those, and that should be able to be done, but I don't know if you can sell your superior design for less money; that's up to you. One thing that may help is to not do EVERYTHING in house but outsource high quality items like mirrors, headlights, etc. Go with LED headlight(s) instead of the H4s that Zero uses: less power consumption while providing better light. But, then you probably already knew that. A bit more range would be "nice", but I'm pretty much ready to get off and take a break after about 100 miles anyway, so I don't suffer too much from range anxiety. Mine has a charge tank so it charges fairly quickly. Quick enough for me anyway. I tour on an IC bike, so I use the machines much differently. More cost to own multiple bikes, but more versatility. The performance of electrics is already pretty stunning so I wouldn't think that you'd have to feel that you have to go overboard there; I'd rather have more range than better 80-100 mph performance because I never do that on my Zero anyway.
I'd love to see a really aerodynamic fairing and windshield for electric bikes. Nothing seems to kill the range faster than 70 mph against a headwind. Make something that cuts through the wind better and you solve a bunch of problems all at once.
The Yamaha R3 is an interesting "target" bike as it's not very fast, doesn't offer fully adjustable suspension and ABS is optional, but is only about $6K, about half of your entry bike, so not the same market at all. The Zero comes with ABS standard, nice fully adjustable Showa suspension and penty fast enough, but $15K+. Perhaps you might want target something else in the Yamaha lineup like the FZ-07... Or perhaps you are targeting the ergonomics of the R3, in which case nevermind.
One of the things I love about the Zero is the Eco mode and, even better, the Custom mode. This turns it into a wonderful beginner's bike! No clutch, no shifting and I can limit the torque and top speed with my phone app so even a rank beginner can feel comfortable and not overwhelmed, especially because it's quiet and so much less intimidating. The more folks we can get into the sport the healthier the industry will be. It would be an interesting ad campaign for a "beginner's" bike that has 120 ft. lbs of torque and can do 115 mph!
Thanks for the reply!
We'll add a vote for LED vs Xenon! I'm personally a fan of lots of off the shelf mirrors, brake levers, handle bar controls and even grips. I do think we'll end up purchasing some small performance bits like those early on. It'll really come down to the cost and time in the moment. With the right set up we can crank out a years worth of brake levers in a day for dollars a piece, it'll just be a question of if that day is needed for something less "replaceable". To your point, we plan to find (and have found) alternative outside sources for all of the small "hot-swapable" parts. This gives us a great deal of flexibility with both design and schedule.
With regard to the yamaha, We mentioned the R3 because it's a comfortable bike to ride on the road as well as the track which is what we're shooting for. Also, its an extremely well known and popular bike to draw ride style comparisons to. Our seating position is a bit sportier but overall similar. Performance-wise, at 100kW and 420 lbs the bike will have the pull of the 600cc bikes it will be competing with cost-wise.
Aerodynamics are very important to us as well and luckily go hand in hand well with aesthetics. We're fortunate enough to have a partnership with Ansys and have some of the best software available to minimize drag. We expect the full fairings as well as our battery cooling/ continuous amp capability to greatly improve highway range.
I'm glad you mentioned adding custom ride settings. That was one of the things that first turned me onto electric motorcycles. You can have an absolute beast of a performance bike, but flip a switch and it can behave like any regular daily commuter or learner bike. Nothing to be afraid of and can be as relaxed or aggressive as you'd like! We're very excited to start tuning ride modes...
Do go for ots mirrors, levers etc, work on the most important parts like battery, motor etc first. Nobody is going to walk away from the bike because there are some ots bits and bobs on it.
Considering the L1 charging side, being able to (slow) destination charge my Zero with just a regular kettle lead is a godsend.
So our current charger is actually 10kW max (~42A @ 240v). It also has a built in (but detachable) 15ft 110v cord on a small spool so no matter where you are you can charge. We do have a design for a 60A level 2 charger started but decided to hold off since 60A is too much to safely charge the smallest pack with. It would be charging each cell with such a high amperage that the life of the cell would be negatively effected. This is tough to get around, we have some of the most impressive li-ion cells available and still have this issue.
With all the DC fast charging questions, super fast charge time seems to be whats on people's minds... May have to revisit the 60A and CCS ideas as options for the larger packs. I do worry about giving people the ability to charge fast (50A+ DC) and then saying "don't do this all the time or your battery life will be hurt" because nobody ever listens to those warning (myself most of all...) We will fully and completely back our products, namely have a kick ass battery warranty, but will not be able to support replacing batteries every 4 years because people fast charge them 100 times a year... its a delicate balance. We'll look over it again though. thank you all for the input!
Fun side note to the above point, we're working on a battery lifespan predictor which could be made to tell people how their riding and charging styles effect the pack's longevity. It would constantly update and even tell riders if the pack capacity has decreased enough to get a replacement under warranty. This isn't an unusually pressing issue, we're expecting ~8 years out of the average pack (particularly the larger packs) but its definitely something people ignore until its a problem and we want to eliminate that problem.
Glad to hear you all don't mind a few standard parts either! like I said, we'll likely have some early on, specifically mirrors and hand controls so we're happy to hear that wont turn people off!
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Your planned stats sound incredible, really hope you are able to develop that. I've owned 2 zeros (currently a 2017 SR) and am hoping on upgrading to an ego around 2020. If this bike comes out before then i would definitely give it consideration. The fairing and cooling system are an advantage over zero.
I agree that DC fast charging isnt a necessity. To me this is only important for long distant travel, and until infrastructure and range of bikes increase it won't be really important. Though if you are able to develop a 24kwh 270mile range bike, it sounds like it would be really useful on that.
For me personally, I am a performance junkie so i gravitate to the bikes with the most power and good design.
Thanks a lot!
We're hoping to combine the best of both worlds. Pretty performance bike with the cost and practicality of the industry leading zero's. We're all big fans of the Zero, this endeavor started a couple years ago precisely because I rode a DSR and loved the experience but was not a fan of the style or lack of duty cycle ability (no cooling in the huge, self heating, sealed thermal mass that is the battery)
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Make it serviceable, make the fairing actually do the work of economizing the bike at speed, and make the frame robust.
A cooling system is a good idea, but the performance metrics listed are worthless off the track. Provide a derated version for people who don’t have a death wish, please, and who’d rather pay for marathon bikes over sprint bikes.
I maintain zeromanual.com, have logged 33k miles on a DSR, and have a background in data analytics, so I hope you probably already know what might persuade me.
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Make it serviceable, make the fairing actually do the work of economizing the bike at speed, and make the frame robust.
A cooling system is a good idea, but the performance metrics listed are worthless off the track. Provide a derated version for people who don’t have a death wish, please, and who’d rather pay for marathon bikes over sprint bikes.
I maintain zeromanual.com, have logged 33k miles on a DSR, and have a background in data analytics, so I hope you probably already know what might persuade me.
Being serviceable by someone who is less than a professional is a very good note. The "simplicity" (or rather low part count) of electric motorcycles lends nicely towards that, and our necessity to "design for manufacturability" helps there too. We are also making an effort to ensure everything is easily replaceable. That's one of our ideas to make servicing easier, give the riders the option to install replacement parts themselves. Your motor controller dies? we just ship out a new one and it's plug and play with the old one. Hopefully we can also provide something as well put together as the "unofficial Zero manual". Bravo on your efforts there. That's a good source for little inefficiencies and difficulties we can fix.
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1/ As a daily user, mainly for commuting, I find the idea of integrated cable very interesting as it remove totally the "range anxiety" which is a big issue for selling E-Motorcycle.
I don't use DCFC on my energica for the moment...and up to now, even a 10kW charger seems enought for me.
I don't want to shorten the battery life with too much Fast Charges anyway.
I don't ride often more than 300km a day... even with my ICE bike, and if I do, I'm pretty sure that a 10kW charger would be sufficient.
2/ An other good thing is the Drive belt, which is better for an EV than a regular chain in my opinion.
But regarding the number of today bikes using a chain...there is certainly lot of advantages to use std chains versus belt...especially on high torque/Power bikes.
3/ A good thing would be to allow users to precisly create their own riding modes, and trigger everything to fit what they prefer.
so I recommend having an app which can read every information from the bike (Everything :) ) and which can allow advanced users to modify parameters regarding their own preferences.
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And then the product liability lawyers, insurance companies and government regulators step in and tell you that all of the great ideas that you have for your new vehicle are too risky and can't be implemented if you want to stay in business. :o
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Make it possible to update software via app or USB, please. Both to eliminate bugs and do new features[emoji6]
My Zero FX 2015 has to go to dealer to update! Arghhh!
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We're looking for feature requests, EV wishlists......
On the fly selectable Regen mode mimicking ICE downshifting.
P.S., I'm in SoCal & use my 16 DSR as my yearound daily commuter.
If you need a beta tester let me know :D
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It'd be great for everybody to have another player entering the market soon. I really hope you will succeed!
Here is another data point for your survey:
Millennial using a 2015 Zero S ZF9.4 as a daily commuter. ~15k miles in 3 years.
What's important:
- Convenience. The least possible amount of regular maintenance and being able to do it myself (i.e. tire pressure, brake fluid. No things like "motor commissioning and timing"). I love the idea of using OTS components as much as possible. For everything else, please consider shipping parts directly to customers!
- Quiet! I love being able to leave early in the morning without waking up the whole neighborhood.
- Range at highway speed of ~100 miles (i.e. fairing).
- Being able to plug in at both regular 110 V outlets and L2 charging stations.
- Torque/power/handling: a slight upgrade from the Zero S would be nice. Top speed doesn't matter beyond 80-85 MPH.
- Reasonable passenger seat (the Zero S' one is not too bad, actually).
NOT a priority (especially if driving cost up):
- fast charging.
- traction control.
- reverse.
- any other fancy upgrade that sounds awesome, but doesn't really add anything to daily use.
I'm excited for a potentially broader choice for a new bike in 2019!!
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Over-app software upgrades sound like a good idea...We'll file that one away.
Reverse is very easy to implement... only downside is it would add a button and some safety logic...
Sounds like super customizable regen settings are in high demand too. Would a "regen" lever where the clutch normally lives in addition to standard regen modes interest anyone? We've gotten mixed feedback on this... Maybe have a mode where its controlled by the rear brake?
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> On the fly selectable Regen mode mimicking ICE downshifting.
Mimic internal combustion? Why would you want to do that? But infinitely variable regen, integrated in, that I could get behind. I wish Evtricity's Regen Lever had become available as a general product we could all use, or that Zero would offer that, or integrate regen braking smoothly into friction braking.
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Variable regen and reverse would be awesome if the bike weighs anything significant. Reverse on my DSR is essential with its fairings on; I live on a pretty steep and gravelly hill. I don't care whether a lever of pedal are employed, but it does help to have regen controllable separately from pad contact.
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I would like regen to be accomplished by rolling the throttle grip forward past the "off" setting, unless of course Vectrix still owns the patent for that idea.
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> On the fly selectable Regen mode mimicking ICE downshifting.
Mimic internal combustion? Why would you want to do that?
......
ICE requires a transmission & thus downshifting is possible.
That the part I’m after.
Instead of downshifting a transmission, selectable/progressive regen that nets the same result (reduction of speed without the usage of mechanical brakes) would be awesome.
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The Zero “brake regen†by touching the brake (via brake light switch) actually works splendid imho. And it’s customable by app.
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The Zero “brake regen†by touching the brake (via brake light switch) actually works splendid imho. And it’s customable by app.
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My problem with that feature is that I have been riding ICE motorcycles for 56 years now and also currently own 5 of them, in addition to my Zero. If there was a brake/regen lever on the left handlebar, I would probably accidentally use it like a clutch lever, but without a lever on the bar, I never try to do so. I would prefer to have the regen integrated into the throttle where it can operate as both an accelerator and a decelerator using just one device. That would seem to be more natural to me.
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The Zero “brake regen†by touching the brake (via brake light switch) actually works splendid imho. And it’s customable by app.
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My problem with that feature is that I have been riding ICE motorcycles for 56 years now and also currently own 5 of them, in addition to my Zero. If there was a brake/regen lever on the left handlebar, I would probably accidentally use it like a clutch lever, but without a lever on the bar, I never try to do so. I would prefer to have the regen integrated into the throttle where it can operate as both an accelerator and a decelerator using just one device. That would seem to be more natural to me.
Agree. No ekstra lever. But feather touch of existing brake levers works great imo. And feels natural too.
PS. I ride ICE bikes too.
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On stronger regen: Energica has far stronger regen than Zero has and is connected to the brake lights and the ABS system. It has four settings, off, low medium and high. I keep mine set on high. It is very easy to modulate and you find yourself rarely using the brakes. If you are coming off the interstate on an exit ramp and rapidly close the throttle it is amazing how fast you slow down. I much prefer this over Zero's system and from reading other posts here I think many others would to.
Size: Zero's are small bikes, Energica is a full sized motorcycle. Really prefer the larger size of the Energica.
Charging: Have put many miles on a Zero SR and have about 5K on my Energica. Would not buy another electric motorcycle without DCFC. Yes it adds to the cost. But look at what many Zero owners are spending on faster charging systems. And I don't miss spending two hours charging my SR at all. At least have it as an option, used to be that way with Energica.
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Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us. Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful. You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.
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Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us. Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful. You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.
You might get effects like Energica's six-speed transmission.
Not good.
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Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us. Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful. You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.
You're definitely right. We've been keeping tabs on many forums for a while, will probably wait until we unveil our prototype to do more public posts. That way doubts and questions are essentially answered and people can give feedback on the actual design. There's never any shortage of opinions on the internet! We were just excited to get the opinions of people who already have skin in the game. its already been very helpful!
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Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us. Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful. You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.
You might get effects like Energica's six-speed transmission.
Not good.
haha Im personally not a fan either.
There are certainly benefits, but I believe the most perfectly designed part is one that doesnt need to exist. Electric motors are more than capable of meeting the needs of most riders. Pluss the added mass and cost.... ooof.
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Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us. Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful. You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.
You might get effects like Energica's six-speed transmission.
Not good.
haha Im personally not a fan either.
There are certainly benefits, but I believe the most perfectly designed part is one that doesnt need to exist. Electric motors are more than capable of meeting the needs of most riders. Pluss the added mass and cost.... ooof.
The only electric motorcycle that had a 6-speed transmission that I know of is the Brammo/Victory Empulse. I am pretty sure the Energica has a direct drive system from the motor's single-speed gearbox to the rear wheel.
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Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us. Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful. You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.
You might get effects like Energica's six-speed transmission.
Not good.
haha Im personally not a fan either.
There are certainly benefits, but I believe the most perfectly designed part is one that doesnt need to exist. Electric motors are more than capable of meeting the needs of most riders. Pluss the added mass and cost.... ooof.
The only electric motorcycle that had a 6-speed transmission that I know of is the Brammo/Victory Empulse. I am pretty sure the Energica has a direct drive system from the motor's single-speed gearbox to the rear wheel.
Yeah the ego just has some set gearing built into the motor unit then a chain drive. I more meant I'm against the idea of putting a transmission on an electric bike. We axed that idea a while ago but it's almost always something that gets brought up when talking with ICE riders. just not worth the effort for me. Even gearing internal to the motor is tough to make work at the torque these things see. Becomes very expensive very fast
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The Zero “brake regen†by touching the brake (via brake light switch) actually works splendid imho. And it’s customable by app.
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My problem with that feature is that I have been riding ICE motorcycles for 56 years now and also currently own 5 of them, in addition to my Zero. If there was a brake/regen lever on the left handlebar, I would probably accidentally use it like a clutch lever, but without a lever on the bar, I never try to do so. I would prefer to have the regen integrated into the throttle where it can operate as both an accelerator and a decelerator using just one device. That would seem to be more natural to me.
I'm thinking either a backwards throttle or a left foot switch or even a momentary push button on the right grip.
My left thumb is already over worked managing the horn, turn signals, hi/low beam & garage door opener (momentary switch dbl stick taped to the bottom of the cluster).
If a left foot switch were used, two functions could be achived. Up travel could disingage regen entirely like a pulled in clutch & downward travel could add regen progressively.
After adding throttle, regen would default to a preselected amount until the switch was again manipulated.
I've configured the Custom mode on my Zero for max regen as it mimics engine breaking.
My commute home takes me on a single file canyon road so I like to select Sport Mode as it nets the least amount of regen so I can "coast" when the traffic slows down. There are a few intersections that sometimes require a hard stop if the signal changes. I will then toggle the mode button to custom for max regen. It would be nice to be able to do that separate from the mode feature.
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nice ;D ;D
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So Evcognito do you have an operating voltage in mind? If you don't come out with DC charging as standard at first please keep it in mind so it can be added later.
Also have you seen/heard of Skeleton Ultra Capacitors? I've read comments they are used in some of the EV auto racing and from their presentation on Fully Charged's channel it sounds like something to fill the "tank" with.
I vote for a left side lever for regen but with off throttle and braking regen as the standard and the lever as the "custom" option on the fly if the rider feels they need more.
Tho only other thing that caught my attention was that you want to make most components in house? Most of the big boys outsource to save money so be sure and really calculate that option out fully before committing one way or the other, a few bikes vs. scale.
Do keep us posted with your progress, I don't want to see another Mission flash in the pan.
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So Evcognito do you have an operating voltage in mind? If you don't come out with DC charging as standard at first please keep it in mind so it can be added later.
Also have you seen/heard of Skeleton Ultra Capacitors? I've read comments they are used in some of the EV auto racing and from their presentation on Fully Charged's channel it sounds like something to fill the "tank" with.
I vote for a left side lever for regen but with off throttle and braking regen as the standard and the lever as the "custom" option on the fly if the rider feels they need more.
Tho only other thing that caught my attention was that you want to make most components in house? Most of the big boys outsource to save money so be sure and really calculate that option out fully before committing one way or the other, a few bikes vs. scale.
Do keep us posted with your progress, I don't want to see another Mission flash in the pan.
Weve looked at these and other similar caps just from a educational standpoint rather than an actual feasibility study and have not had any on hand to play with. If I remember correctly the current and near future tech functions more as complementary to the battery rather than a replacement. Caps are good for high charge and discharge rates which, if one was large enough, could offload high amp cycles from the batteries extending their life. Haven't looked into this is a little while though.
Battery voltage is decided, going to stay quiet about it for now, voltage tells a lot about a power system. Suffice it to say, it's high enough to practically achieve 100kW.
Building everything in house is almost always cheaper (at the volume we plan early on) as long as care is taken to design every component and process to require minimal infrastructure from day one. It becomes a very fun puzzle as parts evolve. The gap will close as production numbers increase but for a while at least this will be the right choice for us.
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Yes complimentary for sure not to replace the battery. They claim around 1 million charge cycles in it's life. It should give an EV the ability to capture more of the kinetic energy in regen braking and also dump the power back out for acceleration giving the battery a break and letting it live in it's happy zone.
Good luck and keep us posted.
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I really want to see a bike where regen is implemented with smooth control.
Look at what car manufacturers are doing with "one pedal driving". I can go from 90 miles an hour to coasting to very smooth deceleration to "braking" and every little blip inbetween very easily with one pedal.
Zero's solution is to pick a setting and then apply that setting 100% as soon as you tap the brake lever or roll of the throttle. The result is the jerkiest least smooth regen I've ever used.
I like the "roll off to regen" in theory but not in practice. Requires too much rotation of the wrist for finite control, esp considering your throttle is your entire speed range and not just the range of a single gear.
Smooth gradual control of the regen is what makes it such a great feature IMO.
I think a clutch-like lever on the left hand is the smartest way to do it, but I'd also suggest thinking outside the box and implementing it in a way that's not going to get ICEr's confused with the clutch lever.
The zero has a trigger button for flash to pass, what if instead it was an adjustible trigger for regen, similar to one you'd see on a game controller. This keeps everything separate, you use regen when you want to and friction brakes when you want to, but you're not going to pull the regen when you forgot you're riding electric.
It gives you the most control while still being legacy friendly.
And again, the more you can do with software so each rider can adjust, the better. Some may never use the left hand lever, and want it on the throttle, others want it integrated on the rear-brake. There's no reason why it can't be user-selectable and customizable.
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I like your idea of using the headlight flashing trigger to activate regen. I never use it to flash my headlights, anyway. ;)
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caza,
If it is possible/practical go test ride an Energica. With the regen set on "High" you can easily modulate it to get the motorcycle equivalent of "one pedal driving". Backing slightly off the throttle will let you coast and the more you roll off the more regen you get. You don't have a lot of movement of the throttle to go from coasting to full regen so it will take a bit to get used to it. It is really sweet once you do though.
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Definitely can't get my hands on an energica any time soon but it sounds like they have a much better implementation than zero's.
Very eager to see more and more bikes in this space so it can keep evolving.
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Hello New EV motorcycle company. I hope that you're able to get this going as Zero seems to be the only game in town. Great company and bikes from what I know. I've had some experience working on bikes, all as a hobby and helping friends. I built a chopper from the frame up a number of years ago and also a couple of cafe racers. My first and so far only electric motorcycle is a 2013 Brammo Empulse R. Excellent build quality and performance all around. I started prepping a frame for an electric motorcycle build but abandoned it after spending
what I considered to be too much time just getting it to a rolling chassis.
All personal opinion here. I think you'll have to have more than one bike, similar to Zero to cater to a number of different riding types. Probably 3 at minimum. Naked upright style, sportbike, and cruiser/touring.
Of course the sportbike should have a really good amount of power and the touring would need a lot of range. For me to buy, I'd have to have a range of no less than 200 miles. It would
fit my commute, riding with my friends and also my short trips. My Brammo is an excellent motorcycle all around with great power minus one thing, it's range is way too short. If you can only do one bike, I'd do the naked upright style and give it a good bit of power with the 200 mile real world range. Get the price to $15K and you'll definitely compete with Zero. ;)
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Being in southern california, I suggest that you check out the BMW C Evolution scooter.
I have been riding ICE bikes for about 50 years and have had at least two bikes at any given time for about the last 20 years, mostly because I have not found a single bike that fulfills all my needs. I admittedly have been a BMW fan for the last 15 years or so. I'm not an engineer or particularly a gearhead - I just like to ride vs being cooped up in a car. I have enough money that I can buy whatever I want it just has to make sense to me in some way or another to keep.
I have had a couple of scooters (Aprilia Scarabeo 500 and a BMW C650GT) that I used for commuting and running around town for errands and just cruising around in the evening or on the weekend. The usual distance of these rides are 50 - 60 miles/day and probably less. I also will go on a day trip of 200 miles or more at least once per month and longer - up to maybe 10 day rides once or twice a year. Sport-touring and adventure bikes fill the bill there. But they really suck as commuters IMHO. I have also owned some purely pleasure bikes - off roaders, medium sporty and cruisers - but they haven't held my interest long-term. I'm not at all interested in racing, and things on the street being what they are not even going that fast anymore.
I was getting tired of shelling out for maintenance almost constantly it seemed like - especially on the scooters. They are not that easy to work on yourself. Plus it wasn't just the monetary cost but also the logistics and the time expense.
So for me, I needed an economical to operate, but high performance and fun bike that was well engineered and built with high quality materials. I checked out the C Evolution when I was down in LA for a business meeting and was so impressed that I bought one on the spot and had it shipped up to Seattle. The fact that it was an EV really wasn't all that important to me.
BMW has packaged many of the "desirable" features noted so far in this thread. In no particular order: Honest 100 mile real-world range. Active regeneration based on 4 different operating mode and actuated via 'throttle' and/or brake lever. Performance comparable (or better than) the BMW 650cc ICE Scooters. Very low maintenance requirements. Uses a direct belt drive and planetary gearset. Has Reverse, ABS, and Traction control. About the only features missing are (inexplicitly) a tire pressure monitoring system and LED headlights. Supports both L1 and L2 AC charging using a standard J1772 connector (and includes a L1 120V charger). The fit and finish is superior to any other BMW bike (again IMHO) and it rides and handles really well with dual-disc brakes and USD forks and triple tree up front and the single sided swing arm out back, The motor driveshaft is the pivot point for the swing arm so the belt maintains a constant tension and there is no on/off throttle snatch. No goofy CVT slop.
I personally like it in the scooter form factor which includes some under seat storage and weather protection and is easy to mount/dismount. I know the scooter puts some people off but i believe the basic system functionality is the same bike or scoot, and it would be worth your time to check one out. BMW is pretty liberal with test rides so bring your helmet. I bought mine at Long Beach BMW.
Courtney in Seattle
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"Battery voltage is decided, going to stay quiet about it for now, voltage tells a lot about a power system."
Power = volts * amps. Does not matter what your voltage is. The power bus on a motorcycle is only few feet at most. Does not matter if the cells are in parallel or series they still have the same power.
Low voltage = safety for users/dealers/hackers
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Volts=speed
Amps=range
High volts=DC fast charging at lower temps
Ebergica 450V bike has DC fast charging in about 40 mins and a top speed of around 150MPH but range of about 60 miles.
Zero 117V charges in about 2 hours with max chargers with 100MPH top speed but around 140 miles range.
Other factors as well but it does matter.
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Power = speed/acceleration
Range = energy stored
Does not matter how you arrange the cells. If a battery can do 1Kw(power) and store 1Kw/hr(energy) does not matter how you arrange them.
Only thing volts gets you is smaller connectors and better use of DC fast charge systems, but a boost converter from vicor get you 4:1 voltage conversion have over 1kw per 1inch^2 density, so you could go easy 400v to 100v for charging.
If you have winding control over the motor, the total current in the tooth is the same if you have one set of wires with 100amps on it or 100wires with 1 amp on it, the trq will be the same. The total amount of copper the electrons are pushing though is the same.
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Yup, volts only equals speed in primitive DC drivetrains. Variable frequency drives are what all the efficient EVs use.
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I think the "volts = speed" conception comes from 10-20 years ago, when people were kludging their own EVs together. If you take an off-the-shelf electric motor, designed for say 96VDC, and you overdrive it to 120VDC, you WILL get more power and torque out of it. In fact, for any given electric motor, more volts really does mean more current, more torque and more power...right up until the smoke starts escaping from the motor.
Proper design of a commercial vehicle doesn't allow that sort of shenanigans. When DESIGNING a vehicle, all specs must be observed because long-term reliability is exceedingly important, and voltage vs. current really does become just another design option.
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I think the "volts = speed" conception comes from 10-20 years ago, when people were kludging their own EVs together. If you take an off-the-shelf electric motor, designed for say 96VDC, and you overdrive it to 120VDC, you WILL get more power and torque out of it. In fact, for any given electric motor, more volts really does mean more current, more torque and more power...right up until the smoke starts escaping from the motor.
Proper design of a commercial vehicle doesn't allow that sort of shenanigans. When DESIGNING a vehicle, all specs must be observed because long-term reliability is exceedingly important, and voltage vs. current really does become just another design option.
My 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S had a large 36/48 volt sepex motor installed in the bike. My guess is that it had been yanked out of a golf cart. It was running 72 volts and when I inspected the armature it was covered with a ring of burn marks. That thing must have really been sparking at its top speed of 60 mph.
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Well the Porsche Taycan is going to run at 800V and charge in 15 mins (on it's own charger) 600hp and 0-60 in 3.5secs. The variable seems to be the hacker killing 800V.
So I'm sticking with voltage matters. ;)
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A concern that I've not seen mentioned that seems to be a common point of discussion on many marque forums is making it easy to have your vehicle fit someone outside the normal range of physique.
One riding position is not going to be good for everyone from 5'2" tall and 100 pounds (including gear) to 6' 2" and 250 (including gear). Some people have very long torsos and short legs, others are long legged/long armed with a more standard torso.
Have multiple positions for the foot pegs on the stock mounting plates or handle bar risers that have the bar offset from the bolts that attach the riser to the front suspension can allow the risers to be reversed to move the bar closer/farther away. It sounds like you've got a lot of in-house CNC capacity, maybe you could offer a few options on the foot peg plates or bar risers that would be normal dealer stock and used to tailor the bike to the purchaser. On seats consider having different sets of seat brackets to allow some height or angle adjustment.
You can have your standard, large production quantity part be designed for the standard 90th percentile potential purchaser, but with your own CNC mill it is easy to have a few parts on each pallet be made to the alternate designs so you can have some available when needed.
I get concerned with the number of people I see buying (or cobbling together on their own) alternate suspension links to try and get the bike low enough so they aren't on tiptoe at a stop, because many of those people clearly have no clue that what they are doing could dangerously impact their ground clearance, wheel/fender clearance, or handling.
Also have a wide variety of people test the seat, because a lot of bikes seem to come with really poor seats. There are people who make a living redoing seats so you don't start squirming in 15 minutes, it isn't rocket science. And once you get a good seat that fits most bottoms, if you can make the seat adjustable for height or fore/aft position then the customer isn't POd because they've got to go out and spend $400 on their new bike to get the seat redone so they can stand to ride the bike.
The motor driveshaft is the pivot point for the swing arm so the belt maintains a constant tension and there is no on/off throttle snatch.
Courtney, you may want to take another look at your BMW. The swing arm pivot is on the outside of the motor case so the motor moves up and down with the swing arm as on many scooters. In this photo you can see the pivot tube at the vertex of the L-shaped bracket bolted on to the battery box/chassis.
(http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/FF/e-FF/BMWCevoChassisRHSweb9404.jpg)
cheers,
Michael
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Yes Michael you are correct - but the belt is still under constant tension without any slop, and the unsprung weight is well managed.
(https://silnicnimotorky.cz/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/bmw-c-evolution-electric-scooter-is-smoking-hot-photo-gallery_5-800x533.jpg)
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Courtney, I think BMW did a good job on the C Evolution, there are lots of nice/clever features. I spent some time going through a parts fiche to find details on the design.
But unless the OP wants to copy some of those clever features we're probably getting a bit off his topic.
cheers,
Michael
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Well the Porsche Taycan is going to run at 800V and charge in 15 mins (on it's own charger) 600hp and 0-60 in 3.5secs. The variable seems to be the hacker killing 800V.
So I'm sticking with voltage matters. ;)
Of course voltage matters. Higher voltage lets you pump more watts through the same resistance. So it gets more power between battery and controller with less waste heat, or it gets more heart-stopping current into your body. But it doesn't matter the simplistic way a lot of the old DC-drivetrain hackers think it matters.
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Doesn't higher voltage also mean smaller wires for a given wattage due to reduced current flow? That would seem like an important design consideration.
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:) :) :) wow
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Well the Porsche Taycan is going to run at 800V and charge in 15 mins (on it's own charger) 600hp and 0-60 in 3.5secs. The variable seems to be the hacker killing 800V.
So I'm sticking with voltage matters. ;)
We really are way off topic! The Tesla P100D is good for 760 HP and 2.5s 0-60, 10.7s 1/4 mile, all at 400v.
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Back to the original topic... The electric bike I am most likely to pull the trigger on, if they ever make it, is the Alta ST prototype. Pretty, light, adequate battery for my use which would be intown Atlanta errands and an occasional short ride in the countryside on some less-traveled roads. I’ve never been fond of Zero’s styling. No commuting, the car is safer and more comfortable for my daily 40-mile journey in heavy traffic. Built-in L2 charging is a requirement.
I’d recommended a deal with Tesla and compatibility with their superchargers for those that want to go touring. The same charge rates that Tesla cars achieve shouldn’t be necessary, just access to all those well-placed charging sites.
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Well I admit my volts=speed amps=range was from dad who would have worked with older DC systems.
Still I think the higher amps making higher heat keeps Zeros from doing any longer races. No liquid cooling hurts too of course.
I'd like to see the Taycan vs a P100D on a race track, no drag race, maybe 100 mile race around a track. I've got a winner in mind. On the south side of Atlanta we still go fast, sometimes very fast and for longer than 1/4 mile. :)
Yes off topic because the topic kind of faded. The OP knows what we want bullet proof reliability, long range, quick charging, low cost, fast if you want it, comfort for the long haul, styling appeal for the masses.
Little things like reverse, parking brake, built in sat nav on a large color dash unit, cruise control, throttle control, at home software updates or better yet get it right the first time and leave it alone.
Lets see the bike. ;D
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BUY ALTA !
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I haven't read the whole thread, but i'll toss inn some comments/ ideas:
Hello all!
We are an electric motorcycle startup midway into the build of our first Sport-bike style prototype.
We're currently operating in "Stealth" mode but plan to unveil our production model and final stats at the end of the year, with production beginning in 2019.
FYI In an effort to make our production model appeal to the widest possible range of riders as well as to maintain a genuine discussion without turning this onto a "self promotion" post we'd like to stay anonymous which, we know, makes a broad topic broader...
We're looking for feature requests, EV wishlists and concerns you may have. Most importantly though, we'd like your help to identify and fix any common objections you may know about towards electric motorcycles. This being the only forum we've found dedicated to electric motorcycles, we thought it was fitting to begin our search here.
A bit about us and our methodology:
- Were a group of engineers with backgrounds in Aerospace, Marine, Automotive, data analytics and manufacturing engineering located in southern California.
- We believe wholeheartedly in vertical integration. We have and plan on continuing to design, manufacture and assemble nearly every component in house. While it drives the need for more infrastructure and generates much more work, it also guarantees design freedom, the lowest possible costs and ensures we can maintain a level of quality not feasible or affordable from overseas sources.
- As we understand it there are 3 main issues with converting riders to electric (in our assumed order of importance):
1. Cost - Current electric motorcycles start at around $11K for the most basic example and can approach $40K+. For that money you could have the best gas bike around and still have enough money left over for track days, an enclosed trailer and a second daily commuter. Costs must be comparable to the gas equivalents,. Most importantly however, the bikes quality, performance and aesthetics must be comparable. @~$11k there's a huge market (Yamaha R6, CBR600, moster 797 etc) however the "equivalent" electric bikes either don't exist or start at twice the price.
2. Range - As with all electric vehicles, range anxiety is almost always the #1 performance concern. With new battery tech and higher efficiency motors/ power electronics new EV's are very close to being able to match what a person could reasonably expect to drive in a day. We believe our bike (as well as other EVs) have just about achieved that, and now its a matter of educating buyers and ensuring charge infrastructure is available to use. 99% of motorcycle trips between stops are <50 miles. Our goal is to make this more than possible with even our lowest capacity model and no change to riding style.
3. Emotion - People love the noise of a sport bike's engine. Us included. While it can get tiresome in traffic or city driving, there isn't much that compares to it at races or on the track. While we cant match the noise, we do think we can replace that emotion with something different. A powerful, clean looking and silent sport bike with loads of instant torque is a very different feeling. You're no longer saturated with engine noise, you're now focused on the sound of where you are and whats around you. On the road this is a safety benefit, but when you're out for a cruise this creates a completely new and thoroughly enjoyable experience.
While these are fine words, this is what everyone is saying.. So if you want to tease the crowd already own an electric bike, you got to separate from the crowd, not just doing the same.
The Bike:
- Our prototype/ planned first production model is a small-midsized sport bike with a slightly more relaxed riding position to make daily commute comfortable (think Yamaha R3 riding style)
- Its a full fairing, slim bodied bike weighing around 420 lbs for the 16kWh version (ready to ride)
- In-house designed and built, liquid cooled li-ion battery pack designed for 50% load continuous duty in hot weather. 3 pack sizes; ~8kWh, ~16kWh and ~24KWh will be sold with expected city/highway ranges of 90, 180 and 270 miles respectively.
- Included and built-in level 1 AND 2 charging capability with a max charge rate of at least 40A @240V (~2 miles per minute of charge)
- In house designed 100kW peak power motor and inverter that can handle 60kW continually.
- Direct drive belt and near zero overall maintenance. The coolant system is fully sealed, no oil to change, no filters to clean. Just tire pressure, brake fluid and belt tension checks.
- Hope to have the 8 kWh model sell for ~$11k and the largest pack would be less than $18k. Significantly, this is an actual, delivered to your home price. Charger, 100kw and options included. Also, this cost does not include any tax rebates you may have.
We do acknowledge this is still a chunk of change and will constantly be trying to lower sales price. Not just cost to build. We want the "can afford it" and "want to buy it" venn diagram to basically be a single circle. Unfortunately, much of the possible price decrease can only come with increased sales numbers, which will take some time to achieve.
Obviously anyone can list off some specs and call it a day, but we sincerely believe in our ability to achieve this. Due to owning the design, manufacture and assembly of almost every component we are uniquely positioned to make this be whatever we'd like it to be. It just comes down to choosing our targets.
So that's our take on things, what would you guys like to see and what thoughts do you have about our plans? Ideas big and small are welcome!
Whether range is an issue or not depends on your style of riding and the battery you get. If you do highways on a sub 15kwh battery, then range is likely an issue, along with with engine and battery heating.
The frame that can hold a 24 kwh battery pack is likely going to be to heavy for making sense with an 8 kwh battery pack . Are you going to compete with Zero on price? If not, i'd just ditch the smallest version. 16kwh usable energy is good for quite some riding, however 240V 40A is not something for the future. Energica already has 20kw CCS charging, so you are starting at a disadvantage, even with 16 kwh battery (the 8 kwh battery will only be for around town commutes, so that bike has to be aggresively priced). If you want to create a bike that will be desired, you need to have faster charging. There are cars charging near 3C today- if you can provide that, the bike may be attractive for more than commuting. With help from third party vendors (diginow,..) Zero already has 1C charging and battery capacities up to 18 kwh. For charging at home, several options should be available, so you can dial in as much as possible or just enough that you wont trigger the circuit breaker. Ideally home charging should be up to 400V 3phase 32A- but you will get a long way with 240V 16A at home, as long as you have true fast charging (>2c).
Belt drive is something i like with the Zeros. But an unprotected belt will get torn when there is gravel. Although it may not look sexy, do provide a solution to protect the belt. It will give the bike a better reputation, and save frustration. If possible, allow for third party vendors for buying a belt- when i bought a new belt for my zero (in Norway), the belt which was priced between 60 and 90$ in US, cost around $400 to get to Norway. If i could have bought it from the manufacturer, it would have cost me less than 1/3. These are things that i will take into account when looking for a bike the next time. Any spare parts should be able to order directly, not just through "your local dealership" which hardly ever will provide good support for a new brand.
For the sake of safety, do provide some sort of traction control/ wheel spin detection. Not every one will want this, so it should be an option. At least make an option to restrict acceleration higher than the theoretical limit without spinning up the wheel. This can be calculated dynamically for any given torque requested by the user (thus by feathering the throttle you should never see the bike spin up and out of control, as you limit the acceleration accordingly).
Make all drive modes customizable. Let the driver choose the amount of regen while driving, and make the regen scheme tunable, not just some on/off solution. For my own part, i might like to go heavier on regen in some areas, and then coast in others. This should be doable without stopping the bike, or changing through modes governing everything. For my part the zero "eco" mode (which is a silly name- don't use "eco" it just doesn't make sense) has prohibitively high regen when letting off the throttle- thus the mode is useless. When i drive in rain i don't need jerky regen, and coasting is much better for saving energy. If regen can be applied gently it makes sense- on/off is not a good deal. Do have more than one custom mode, and let me choose whether or not i will use predefined modes. (If they are going to stick they better make good sense!).
- Good luck with your project!
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...The Bike:... - Direct drive belt and near zero overall maintenance...
A real positive. Especially if (1) you design the swing arm pivot so it's on the same axis as the motor's drive pulley, and (2) incorporate real belt protection. Zero got that first concept right, but completely lapsed on the second.