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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on November 21, 2017, 05:04:36 AM
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I have been unable to determine by reading the 2018 Zero owner's manual if this is supposed to happen: Once the bike has fully charged and you remove the charging cable, as recommended by Zero, the information on the display and the green charging light stay lit - apparently forever, until you toggle the ignition on and off. Then it goes blank, as did my 2014 Zero when the power cord was disconnected. Does anyone know if this is a new "feature" of the 2018 models?
Another odd thing is that the four LED battery charging indicator lights behind the clear window on the front fairing, behind the front wheel, have been deleted. The 2018 owner's manual says to pull the rubber cover off of the front of the bike to check the status of the charging of the battery pack by looking at the lights under the cover. However, there are no lights under the cover. ??? Just a lot of silicon waterproofing grease and the Zero cable connection installed under this cover from at least since 2012.
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Are you perhaps looking at the effect of residual power in the capacitors from the charging circuit? When at the end of a charging cycle the charger from my 2016 DSR is drawing very little power and will remain on for a while (some minutes... not overnight). The same effect is seen on a 2017 FX because its charger is such low draw the charging mode stays active much longer than I'm used to compared to the '16 DSR. Alternatively if there is something keeping the charging mode line high like powertank or chargetank I would guess, it might take even longer.
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Are you perhaps looking at the effect of residual power in the capacitors from the charging circuit? When at the end of a charging cycle the charger from my 2016 DSR is drawing very little power and will remain on for a while (some minutes... not overnight). The same effect is seen on a 2017 FX because its charger is such low draw the charging mode stays active much longer than I'm used to compared to the '16 DSR. Alternatively if there is something keeping the charging mode line high like powertank or chargetank I would guess, it might take even longer.
The display and steady green charging light seems to stay on at least for 12 hours, that I have noticed so far. When I return home today and recharge the pack after my ride, I plan to pull the plug and then see how long the display stays lit. Maybe you are right and it will go out eventually, without a reboot of the ignition. It could be that Zero has changed a component that is hanging on to more power than it used to once the charging system is turned off. ???
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Today, after 24 hours, the display was still lit, showing a 100% charge and the green charge light was still lit. So I checked the charge with the Zero app and it showed 100% charge and 15.18 kWh. Then I plugged in the charger, the contactor clicked on, and it immediately started charging at 1460 watts for about 10 minutes. So I checked the app again with the charging cord plugged in, while charging at 5 watts, and it showed a 100% charge and 15.38 kWh available. So turned off the app and pulled the charger plug - and the contactor (finally) clicked off, as did the charging light and the dash display. ??? Hopefully whatever was going on has fixed itself. ::) I guess time will tell. ;)
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Shot in the dark guess here, I wonder if it's staying on to link with the app?
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Shot in the dark guess here, I wonder if it's staying on to link with the app?
I don't think that is the case. I turn the app off and the dash Bluetooth symbol goes out before I pull the plug. The problem seems to be that the contactor switch is not clicking off when the charger plug is pulled, as always happened with my 2014 Zero. Maybe I need to get down there and lubricate the contactor switch. ;) Or perhaps a tap with a heavy hammer will help. ;) That has always helped me solve my mechanical problems in the past. ;D
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Well, whatever the problem with the display and the charging light staying on after pulling the plug was, it seems to have corrected itself. :) And I didn't even have to get out my hammer. :o Happy days are here again. ;)
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Sometimes the threat of the hammer is greater than the hammer itself, maybe zero built in some AI!
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Once the bike has fully charged and you remove the charging cable, as recommended by Zero, the information on the display and the green charging light stay lit - apparently forever, until you toggle the ignition on and off.
I have the exact same behaviour on my Zero SR 2017.
I have been unable to determine by reading the 2018 Zero owner's manual if this is supposed to happen
Neither have I and I already asked my reseller several times by mail ... I just don't get a response.
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Once the bike has fully charged and you remove the charging cable, as recommended by Zero, the information on the display and the green charging light stay lit - apparently forever, until you toggle the ignition on and off.
I have the exact same behaviour on my Zero SR 2017.
I have been unable to determine by reading the 2018 Zero owner's manual if this is supposed to happen
Neither have I and I already asked my reseller several times by mail ... I just don't get a response.
I thought the problem had fixed itself, but it happened again yesterday. Even though the display was showing 100% charge and the charging light was lit with the power cord unplugged, I plugged the cord back in and it started charging again. After a few minutes, I checked the battery pack with the Zero app and it showed 15.38 kWh available and the cell balancing was ranging between 1 and 2 mV. That sounded good enough to me, so I unplugged the power cord, the contactor "clicked", and the display and charging light went out, as it is supposed to.
A little odd, but so far it doesn't seem to be causing any problems. However, I plan to take my Zero in for its initial servicing (and motor "commissioning" ::) ) soon and will ask my dealer's service department about this issue. Maybe they will contact Zero and obtain an answer. ???
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I posted this in another thread, at the risk of being repetitive I copied and pasted here. :)
When I charge my 2017 SR to 100% using the onboard charger and 120v outlet, the charge indicator stops blinking and goes solid green. I unplug the bike and the green light stays lit. It will stay lit for 2 or 3 days if I don't ride it. If I do ride it, the green light goes out as soon as the contactor closes.
I contacted Zero about this, and spoke to an engineer who explained that prior to 2017 models, the green charge indicator did go out once the bike was unplugged. For 2017 though, a component was deleted, so the light stays on until voltage in the circuit bleeds off, or the contactor is closed.
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I posted this in another thread, at the risk of being repetitive I copied and pasted here. :)
When I charge my 2017 SR to 100% using the onboard charger and 120v outlet, the charge indicator stops blinking and goes solid green. I unplug the bike and the green light stays lit. It will stay lit for 2 or 3 days if I don't ride it. If I do ride it, the green light goes out as soon as the contactor closes.
I contacted Zero about this, and spoke to an engineer who explained that prior to 2017 models, the green charge indicator did go out once the bike was unplugged. For 2017 though, a component was deleted, so the light stays on until voltage in the circuit bleeds off, or the contactor is closed.
Thanks Michael. I did see your other post. That is nice to know and makes sense. I take my new Zero into my dealer for its first service tomorrow and plan to ask them about the charging anomaly. I will report what they have to say. (I am expecting to hear that: "they all do that sir" - or: "we have never heard of that before" ;) )
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I have just returned from my dealer after getting the 600-mile servicing. While there, I asked about the display and charging light staying on after the charging cord is disconnected, the battery pack has been fully charged and all of the battery cells completely balanced. It should be no surprise that the technician found no odd logs and had never heard of this issue before. So I guess I won't worry about it and just enjoy riding my new Zero. ;)
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I have just returned from my dealer after getting the 600-mile servicing...
Did they check the motor "commissioning and timing"? If so, does your invoice show the labor time for that operation?
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I have just returned from my dealer after getting the 600-mile servicing...
Did they check the motor "commissioning and timing"? If so, does your invoice show the labor time for that operation?
My invoice showed total labor being billed at 1.75 hours (although I was keeping an eye on my parked bike and it only spent one hour in the shop, which is typical of the service time billed at my BMW shop, too). The invoice listed 38 items that were to be inspected and were checked off. "Commissioning" was not mentioned, however the following was performed: "Adjust Encoder timing using zero diagnostic software"; "Check zeroserviceportal.com for all applicable service bulletins or campaigns" and "With the latest Zero Diagnostics utility, found on zeroserviceportal.com, run the 'check firmware versions' and update as necessary".
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..."Commissioning" was not mentioned, however the following was performed: "Adjust Encoder timing using zero diagnostic software"...
Bingo! I think. :-\
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..."Commissioning" was not mentioned, however the following was performed: "Adjust Encoder timing using zero diagnostic software"...
Bingo! I think.
Yep. The procedure is to lift the bike in the air, run the calibration program which displays feedback as an X/Y graph from running the throttle, the technician runs the throttle and observes the computer screen such that the point cloud stays within the target zone. This generates a calibration value for the controller. The value should not change much beyond an initial "bed-in" of the motor magnets from when new, hence it's pretty darn important to do this when the bike is new and as part of long term regular maintenance. Having the wrong values can cause all kinds of unwanted behavior like a motor running backwards, regen fails, and jumps in acceleration curve.
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..."Commissioning" was not mentioned, however the following was performed: "Adjust Encoder timing using zero diagnostic software"...
Bingo! I think.
Yep. The procedure is to lift the bike in the air, run the calibration program which displays feedback as an X/Y graph from running the throttle, the technician runs the throttle and observes the computer screen such that the point cloud stays within the target zone. This generates a calibration value for the controller. The value should not change much beyond an initial "bed-in" of the motor magnets from when new, hence it's pretty darn important to do this when the bike is new and as part of long term regular maintenance. Having the wrong values can cause all kinds of unwanted behavior like a motor running backwards, regen fails, and jumps in acceleration curve.
On the other hand, I never had this "commissioning" performed to my 2014 Zero S and it still seems to run perfectly - even if the battery pack only charges to 92% before turning off for the day. ??? So I guess that bike is ready to have its battery pack "commissioned". ;)
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On the other hand, I never had this "commissioning" performed to my 2014 Zero S and it still seems to run perfectly - even if the battery pack only charges to 92% before turning off for the day. ??? So I guess that bike is ready to have its battery pack "commissioned". ;)
2014 was before IPM motor?
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On the other hand, I never had this "commissioning" performed to my 2014 Zero S and it still seems to run perfectly - even if the battery pack only charges to 92% before turning off for the day. ??? So I guess that bike is ready to have its battery pack "commissioned". ;)
2014 was before IPM motor?
Yes. So prior to the IPM, "commissioning" was not an issue? If that is the case, I wonder why? ???
And today the 2014's charging display showed 96% and when we plugged it back in it started charging again. Looks like it is on its way to 98% :)
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Yes. So prior to the IPM, "commissioning" was not an issue? If that is the case, I wonder why? ???
Perhaps the details are all in my imagination, although I recall listening to Abe's presentation of the IPM design (amid other topics at the 10th anniversary Zero Motorcycles gathering)... and I'm thinking there was something rather different about the IPM design which relies on a more exact magnetic field alignment with respect to controller timing. I have zero competence in that area of study, I just have heard casually mentioned from people who I think might know better than me that the new IPM design absolutely requires that for a new motor a commissioning / calibration procedure be carried out as the motor is no longer brand new because it is known from the R&D phase and over time that the field of magnet materials used will drift slightly from their initial state, that the drift is not always consistent from one batch of materials to the next from their supplier, and after the initial correction of calibration are not expected to change anymore but it is good practice to perform that calibration periodically just to catch any outliers.
From experience I may have a failed target magnet on my 2016 DSR's IPM motor assembly, which led to an outcome of some really scary riding experience. My opinion weighing in here is that the theory of "if it is not broken then don't do an update to calibration/firmware" is probably more appropriate to the non-IPM model year bikes. I would urge the owners of all IPM-equipped Zero bikes to keep their equipment updated and calibrated, for safety sake, just as the manufacturer Zero Motorcycles has advised in all bulletins. If you were ignoring the calibration and regular maintenance then you might earn a 100mph trip to somewhere you don't want to be! It is my hope that this mode of failure never happens in concert with a contactor fused to a closed circuit; you would have to lay down the bike or die trying.
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Yes. So prior to the IPM, "commissioning" was not an issue? If that is the case, I wonder why? ???
Perhaps the details are all in my imagination, although I recall listening to Abe's presentation of the IPM design (amid other topics at the 10th anniversary Zero Motorcycles gathering)... and I'm thinking there was something rather different about the IPM design which relies on a more exact magnetic field alignment with respect to controller timing. I have zero competence in that area of study, I just have heard casually mentioned from people who I think might know better than me that the new IPM design absolutely requires that for a new motor a commissioning / calibration procedure be carried out as the motor is no longer brand new because it is known from the R&D phase and over time that the field of magnet materials used will drift slightly from their initial state, that the drift is not always consistent from one batch of materials to the next from their supplier, and after the initial correction of calibration are not expected to change anymore but it is good practice to perform that calibration periodically just to catch any outliers.
From experience I may have a failed target magnet on my 2016 DSR's IPM motor assembly, which led to an outcome of some really scary riding experience. My opinion weighing in here is that the theory of "if it is not broken then don't do an update to calibration/firmware" is probably more appropriate to the non-IPM model year bikes. I would urge the owners of all IPM-equipped Zero bikes to keep their equipment updated and calibrated, for safety sake, just as the manufacturer Zero Motorcycles has advised in all bulletins. If you were ignoring the calibration and regular maintenance then you might earn a 100mph trip to somewhere you don't want to be! It is my hope that this mode of failure never happens in concert with a contactor fused to a closed circuit; you would have to lay down the bike or die trying.
I guess that sounds technical enough to confuse me. But you convinced me to visit my dealer every 6K miles for the recommended Zero servicing. At least it costs a lot less than going to my BMW dealer for the same servicing interval.
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Well, I can now report that there is an impact on the battery charge when the green charging nightlight stays on after pulling the charging power cable plug. Even though I have Zero's largest battery pack, with a capacity of 15.38 kWh, when the charging light stays on the battery capacity drops by 1% each day it stays lit. (I left the display and charging light on for three days and it never went out.) But when I checked the voltage after three days, it had dropped from 116 volts to 113 volts and the battery pack's capacity had dropped over 500 watts during that time, according to the Zero app. So now I will have to force the display to turn off by either re-powering the charger for a few minutes or turning the ignition on and off. Both actions seem to be able to turn off the 100% display and green charging light. Sounds like Zero is going to have to develop a software update to correct this anomaly.
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Hello All!
I just took delivery of my 2018 Zero SR last Saturday.
I had no issues when I charged the Zero in downtown Portland, OR (Level II Unknown charger make). But Monday when I charged it at work (Level II, GE Wattstation), someone else unplugged the Zero while I was awhile (Normal process for our work chargers).
When I got back to the bike, I appear to have the same issue, the bike thinks it is still charging. I could only get it to switch to "run" when I pushed the bike forward.
Every time I turned off the bike, I had to repeat the process: See charging indicator, push forward, ride.
Monday night, I used the accessory port to run a tire inflator and when I was done, the "check engine" light was on with Error 47 (MBB Charger Check Fail).
I tried plugging in to the Level 1 charger at home and it noticed it was charging, but still did not notice the system was unplugged (I'm guessing from the charge tank).
I sent the logs to Zero and dealer last night.
This morning, same thing on the ride to work (this is now 40 miles of operation since last Level II charge).
I'm going to try plugging it back into the LII charger during my lunch break and hope for better results.
So I guess I just wanted to throw my "hat into the ring" so to speak.
Hello All!
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I sent in my logs regarding the charging light staying on when the charger is unplugged about a month ago, along with a detailed message about the problem. No response yet.
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Well, I can now report that there is an impact on the battery charge when the green charging nightlight stays on after pulling the charging power cable plug. Even though I have Zero's largest battery pack, with a capacity of 15.38 kWh, when the charging light stays on the battery capacity drops by 1% each day it stays lit. (I left the display and charging light on for three days and it never went out.) But when I checked the voltage after three days, it had dropped from 116 volts to 113 volts and the battery pack's capacity had dropped over 500 watts during that time, according to the Zero app. So now I will have to force the display to turn off by either re-powering the charger for a few minutes or turning the ignition on and off. Both actions seem to be able to turn off the 100% display and green charging light. Sounds like Zero is going to have to develop a software update to correct this anomaly.
How can ths=is be? There is no way a battery can discharge that much in a day, unless the SOC was not really the actual. I park my bike in late october at 60% and in late April, pull it out and it only dropped to 55%. 5% in 6 months.
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Well, I can now report that there is an impact on the battery charge when the green charging nightlight stays on after pulling the charging power cable plug. Even though I have Zero's largest battery pack, with a capacity of 15.38 kWh, when the charging light stays on the battery capacity drops by 1% each day it stays lit. (I left the display and charging light on for three days and it never went out.) But when I checked the voltage after three days, it had dropped from 116 volts to 113 volts and the battery pack's capacity had dropped over 500 watts during that time, according to the Zero app. So now I will have to force the display to turn off by either re-powering the charger for a few minutes or turning the ignition on and off. Both actions seem to be able to turn off the 100% display and green charging light. Sounds like Zero is going to have to develop a software update to correct this anomaly.
How can ths=is be? There is no way a battery can discharge that much in a day, unless the SOC was not really the actual. I park my bike in late october at 60% and in late April, pull it out and it only dropped to 55%. 5% in 6 months.
Apparently, when the charger is unplugged and the charging light goes off, the contactor switch cuts out with a loud click. When that happens, the battery pack will stay fully charged for a long time.
However in my case, when I disconnect the charging cord the green charging light and the dash display stay on and the contactor switch does not disconnect, so (apparently) the charger stays connected to the battery pack somehow and slowly bleeds power from the battery (back to the charger?) to the tune of a volt or so every day. Turning the ignition on and then off again, causes the contactor switch to click off, the display to go blank and the charging light to go off, resulting in normal battery storage. I don't know if there is a problem with the contactor switch or with the BMS program that causes the switch to be disconnected when the charger is unplugged.
However I might also mention that if I can pull the charging plug within 10 minutes of the battery being fully charged and top balanced, as indicated by a steady green charging light, the contactor switch will click off and the light go out as normal. But if I wait more than 10 minutes, the contactor switch will not disconnect, the dash display will remain on and the charging light will stay on as if the charger was still powered on. ??? All very strange. Fortunately it is not a big problem for me, just an unexplained irritant. :(
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FWIW, my new 2017 DSR does the same thing with the charging light, but it's no big deal to just turn the key on and off when I unplug to make the light go out.