ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: firepower on October 17, 2017, 06:10:00 PM
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https://youtu.be/FXuqQHPxggA
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/high-res-photos/
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I saw that. Bigger battery for the "R" models, faster charging via the Charge Tank. Unfortunately, I find the new color selections "Meh!" I prefer the brighter colors of previous years.
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I agree, think they should also allow optional ordering of any existing color panels. Not having SR in red is just wrong.
Don't think much has changed, zero is being very low key about features.
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As someone who doesn't like change, the new 2018 Zeros seem perfect to me. ;) I do wish they had kept the yellow color, though. :( Time to buy a new one before they make any real changes. :)
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New bigger battery only for the R's and the weak half battery bikes? Pea soup green DS (no thank you) black and white for the rest?
Oh and higher price for R's!
It's like socks and underwear for Christmas. >:(
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I agree, think they should also allow optional ordering of any existing color panels. Not having SR in red is just wrong.
Agree 100%
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To me the charge tank is the big deal this year! 6kW without extra charging equipment is pretty good. Add a pair of digiNow Supercharger V2 and you can charge up fully in less than an hour! For road trips, this is pretty darn good!
It is basically the best they can do with level 2 charging. Level 3 charging is the next logical upgrade.
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Really dissapointed it seems the new charge tank is not backwards compatible with earlier models, that was something i was really looking forward to as I don't like the aftermarket options so much. Also i like red much more for the SR so will be dissapointed if my next upgrade i can't get that color. On the bright side I am at least not tempted to spend a small fortune to upgrade one model year again :)
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I think the answer for the non compatibility of the 3.6kWh new power tank to the 2017 and previous bike is due to the new technology of the cells.
I think the new 2018 31Ah cells have new technology with much lower internal resistance ( higher power capability). The current sharing between all the battery brick must be equal the most as possible in a bike battery system. When you mix up some brick with different internal resistance the current will not flow equally over all these brick and will create problem. Normally while you are riding your bike, if the total current draw is 150A, then all battery brick must have the same current.. ex, if you have 3 brick then the current on each must be around 50A..
If you put a power tank with new technology and lower internal resistance there will be more current draw from that power tank than on the other brick of the main pack itself and that's a problem.. cell might age differently, the SOC estimation might be tricky to calculate due to rebalancing current flow between the bricks during power variations.. etc..
Doc
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First impression... Underwhelmed :(
Black, green and white and thats it?? Is the red paint that expensive? A white SR is just wrong.
$17k for an SR? dafuq?
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To me the charge tank is the big deal this year! 6kW without extra charging equipment is pretty good. Add a pair of digiNow Supercharger V2 and you can charge up fully in less than an hour! For road trips, this is pretty darn good!
It is basically the best they can do with level 2 charging. Level 3 charging is the next logical upgrade.
hmmmm.... 6kw + 3.3 + 3.3 is 12.6 kw, 12.6kwh in an hour is pretty nice for trips, and I guess you can leave the SCv2 behind when you are staying local, a pretty nice setup if you can handle the cost. Just need a solid rack and top case for the SCv2. Hope they improved the factory rack so it's not so flimsy.
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I think the new 2018 31Ah cells have new technology with much lower internal resistance ( higher power capability). ...
Doc
graphene? asphalt?
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I think the answer for the non compatibility of the 3.6kWh new power tank to the 2017 and previous bike is due to the new technology of the cells.
I think the new 2018 31Ah cells have new technology with much lower internal resistance ( higher power capability). The current sharing between all the battery brick must be equal the most as possible in a bike battery system. When you mix up some brick with different internal resistance the current will not flow equally over all these brick and will create problem. Normally while you are riding your bike, if the total current draw is 150A, then all battery brick must have the same current.. ex, if you have 3 brick then the current on each must be around 50A..
If you put a power tank with new technology and lower internal resistance there will be more current draw from that power tank than on the other brick of the main pack itself and that's a problem.. cell might age differently, the SOC estimation might be tricky to calculate due to rebalancing current flow between the bricks during power variations.. etc..
Doc
It looks like the new 3.6 Powertank is backwards compatible according to Zeros website. If it is added to an older bike, would it just be a matter of basic cell imbalance and discharge of the 3.6KW PT 31Ah cells first before the 29Ah cells due to the lower resistance?
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I think the answer for the non compatibility of the 3.6kWh new power tank to the 2017 and previous bike is due to the new technology of the cells.
I think the new 2018 31Ah cells have new technology with much lower internal resistance ( higher power capability). The current sharing between all the battery brick must be equal the most as possible in a bike battery system. When you mix up some brick with different internal resistance the current will not flow equally over all these brick and will create problem. Normally while you are riding your bike, if the total current draw is 150A, then all battery brick must have the same current.. ex, if you have 3 brick then the current on each must be around 50A..
If you put a power tank with new technology and lower internal resistance there will be more current draw from that power tank than on the other brick of the main pack itself and that's a problem.. cell might age differently, the SOC estimation might be tricky to calculate due to rebalancing current flow between the bricks during power variations.. etc..
Doc
It looks like the new 3.6 Powertank is backwards compatible according to Zeros website. If it is added to an older bike, would it just be a matter of basic cell imbalance and discharge of the 3.6KW PT 31Ah cells first before the 29Ah cells due to the lower resistance?
It is not a matter of cell imbalance but a matter of discharge current imbalance (from one brick compare to another brick connected in parallel to it) I dont think a powertank (regular not long brick) could supply alone the entire current for the bike.. it have to be helped by the main pack monolith... so i dont think it switch between one to two source... like the FX does depending of the SOC when added onthe fly
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I think the answer for the non compatibility of the 3.6kWh new power tank to the 2017 and previous bike is due to the new technology of the cells.
I think the new 2018 31Ah cells have new technology with much lower internal resistance ( higher power capability). The current sharing between all the battery brick must be equal the most as possible in a bike battery system. When you mix up some brick with different internal resistance the current will not flow equally over all these brick and will create problem. Normally while you are riding your bike, if the total current draw is 150A, then all battery brick must have the same current.. ex, if you have 3 brick then the current on each must be around 50A..
If you put a power tank with new technology and lower internal resistance there will be more current draw from that power tank than on the other brick of the main pack itself and that's a problem.. cell might age differently, the SOC estimation might be tricky to calculate due to rebalancing current flow between the bricks during power variations.. etc..
Doc
It looks like the new 3.6 Powertank is backwards compatible according to Zeros website. If it is added to an older bike, would it just be a matter of basic cell imbalance and discharge of the 3.6KW PT 31Ah cells first before the 29Ah cells due to the lower resistance?
It is not a matter of cell imbalance but a matter of discharge current imbalance (from one brick compare to another brick connected in parallel to it) I dont think a powertank (regular not long brick) could supply alone the entire current for the bike.. it have to be helped by the main pack monolith... so i dont think it switch between one to two source... like the FX does depending of the SOC when added onthe fly
Thanks for the reply, do you think there are any long term battery health issues if the new 3.6KW PT were to be combined with the older monolith in terms of cell imbalance and charging? I figure if Zero says the new PT is backwards compatible they are willing to warranty the dissemilar battery configuration.
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New French owner, thanks to share information.
David S question was compatibility for older models of the new Charge Tank not the Power tank. Il's not clear in the official communication. What do you think about it ?
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Who will be the first to get a 2018 Zero? Place your bets!
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I would seriously consider trading my 15 FX for a 7.2 S, if they're using better quality chargers. Maybe right before the 19s come out.
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Zero S & DS is ZF7.2 and ZF13 battey for US but shows ZF7.2 and ZF14.4 for Europe etc
Zero only using new cells in 7.2 and selling 2017 ZF13 model as a 2018 ?
Would not be happy buying ZF13 when i know it should be ZF14.4
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Specs for highway for 2018 models is @ 70mph (113 km/h). For 2017 the specs were @ 55mph. This makes comparison between last and previous years with this year's model a bit problematical.
I think the 2018 batteries and charge tank/power tank are steps in the right direction. I'm really excited about what's coming in two to five years. That said, this year's improvements aren't enough to convince me to upgrade from my 2016 SR. Um, because I can't afford it. And I haven't outgrown my current SR. But I'm pretty certain I'll upgrade in two to three years.
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I should have my 2014 paid off this year, maybe I'll buy a 2018 when they get discounted in favor of the 2019.
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Looks nice. Zero has done a great job with the intro videos this year, big step up from past years. Worth watching each if you haven't.
Zero FX:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JpYpDmvtgI
Zero DS | DSR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoTzLAQlkA8
Zero FXS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-bhZJFi6Vg
Zero S | SR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-R5qi4q6So
Zero's media center (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/media-center/highlights/) has some additional highlights.
- We've discussed the charge tank and the 31 Ah cells already.
- Zero also reduced the front pulley size by 10% on the ZF7.2 bikes, increasing wheel torque. Max RPM was increased to keep the same top speed.
- Zero claims to have improved highway acceleration for the ZF13 bikes by 30%. Interesting..
Other thoughts:
- This is the first year Zero has doubled capacity since the first "big" battery bike, 2012's ZF9. Zero no longer lists nominal capacity but max capacity now tops out at 18 kWh on the Power Tank SR. Range in mixed riding has improved by 138%, even better than capacity, due to improved high speed efficiency.
- This is also the first year cell improvements have allowed the standard monolith to have more capacity than 2014's Power Tank bike. 26% improvement in 4 years.
- Comparing the smallest battery 2018 S ZF7.2 to the biggest battery 2012 S ZF9 .. about the same mixed riding range, lighter, much cheaper, charges almost twice as fast, much better equipment and quality. The future's bright!
- Zero continues their tradition of dumping last year's parts into unloved bikes. In past years it was the 2015 FX with the old cells and the 2016 FX and S ZF9.4 with the non-IPM motors, and the 2017 S ZF13 with the narrow belt. This year it's the 2018 S ZF13 with the old 29 Ah battery cells. Guess they have a stock to run through, though see firepower's post above about the Euro bikes all having the 31 Ah cells. Maybe look for a "2018 S bikes now shipping with ZF14.4 packs" announcement in summer?
- SR and DSR see a $500 price bump. Unfortunate. I wonder if this year the very regular "$1000 to $1500 off" games will become permanent.
- I'm really curious what Zero's electrical engineering staff is doing. They must be bored out of their minds. Zero has become a component integrator, not a technology leader. Zero custom bits are frame, battery, motor, BMS?
I would seriously consider trading my 15 FX for a 7.2 S, if they're using better quality chargers. Maybe right before the 19s come out.
No indication that the stock chargers have changed.
Zero S & DS is ZF7.2 and ZF13 battey for US but shows ZF7.2 and ZF14.4 for Europe etc
Zero only using new cells in 7.2 and selling 2017 ZF13 model as a 2018 ?
Would not be happy buying ZF13 when i know it should be ZF14.4
Good catch on the Euro S!
I don't think Zero is selling old 2017 models - the VIN on the frame would have to change, and the improved highway performance might be more than just a software change - but they probably are running through a supply of the 29 Ah cells.
Specs for highway for 2018 models is @ 70mph (113 km/h). For 2017 the specs were @ 55mph. This makes comparison between last and previous years with this year's model a bit problematical.
There's a "full specs" button you can tap above the specs list. 2018 does not show the 55 mph range by default, but both 2017 and 2018 specs list both ranges.
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Who will be the first to get a 2018 Zero? Place your bets!
I ordered a 2018 S with PT from my dealer yesterday. All it took was a phone call and a credit card.
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Zero also reduced the front pulley size by 10% on the ZF7.2 bikes, increasing wheel torque
I wonder if they will offer the chain kit with 11T front. So far the 2018 is not listed for chain kit models. I'm glad I had my custom front sprocket made, can't have too much torque.
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Who will be the first to get a 2018 Zero? Place your bets!
I ordered a 2018 S with PT from my dealer yesterday. All it took was a phone call and a credit card.
Wow, lucky you! When can you expect to receive your new S?
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2019 full fairing bike. Not sure if it will me more like a sport bike or a sport touring bike.
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Who will be the first to get a 2018 Zero? Place your bets!
I ordered a 2018 S with PT from my dealer yesterday. All it took was a phone call and a credit card.
Ah. Congrats Richard! I guess your 2014 will cycle to your daughter? The 2018 S should be noticeably quicker than your 2014..
I think the answer for the non compatibility of the 3.6kWh new power tank to the 2017 and previous bike is due to the new technology of the cells.
I think the new 2018 31Ah cells have new technology with much lower internal resistance ( higher power capability). The current sharing between all the battery brick must be equal the most as possible in a bike battery system. When you mix up some brick with different internal resistance the current will not flow equally over all these brick and will create problem. Normally while you are riding your bike, if the total current draw is 150A, then all battery brick must have the same current.. ex, if you have 3 brick then the current on each must be around 50A..
If you put a power tank with new technology and lower internal resistance there will be more current draw from that power tank than on the other brick of the main pack itself and that's a problem.. cell might age differently, the SOC estimation might be tricky to calculate due to rebalancing current flow between the bricks during power variations.. etc..
I hear you Doc. And yet the 2018 S with - presumably - the 29 Ah cells appears to be compatible with the 31 Ah cells in the Power Tank. Curious.
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Who will be the first to get a 2018 Zero? Place your bets!
I ordered a 2018 S with PT from my dealer yesterday. All it took was a phone call and a credit card.
Wow, lucky you! When can you expect to receive your new S?
I have no idea and neither does my dealer. ??? They will let me know when it arrives. I like to buy one of the first Zeros off of the assembly line when a new model is developed. I figure that they will put the "A" team on the job when building the first few bikes. ;)
My daughter will be getting my 2014S and then she will have to decide what to do with my old 2012S that she still rides around the county. No doubt she will be happy to have a Zero with passenger accommodations so that she can give her daughter a ride to high school occasionally.
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Are these the new Farasis cells?
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-farasis-pouch-cell-balances-power-and-energy-density/
4C is nice. Zero still limiting us to 1C?
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I believe the 4C referenced in the article refers to continuous discharge rate, not charge rate.
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Are these the new Farasis cells?
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-farasis-pouch-cell-balances-power-and-energy-density/
4C is nice. Zero still limiting us to 1C?
Yep! 32Ah, not 31Ah ("4" bricks x 32 Ah = 128 Ah ; 128 Ah x 114V = 14592 Wh = ZF14.4). And yes, Zero still limits to 1C. However, the 4C referenced in the article is the discharge rate, not charge rate. Thanks for the link!
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dated september 2016, I sure Farasis has another cell due out soon. 35Ah ???
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Does somebody know if the new Charge Tank is single phase?
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Does somebody know if the new Charge Tank is single phase?
The new charger work with J1772 which are single phase AC. This probably means they are just 240v single phase chargers.
The new cells are 32Ah but there is more to the these cells then just a capacity bump. =) It'll be interesting to see what people think of them.
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Does somebody know if the new Charge Tank is single phase?
The new charger work with J1772 which are single phase AC. This probably means they are just 240v single phase chargers.
The new cells are 32Ah but there is more to the these cells then just a capacity bump. =) It'll be interesting to see what people think of them.
And can the charger be retrofitted to a 16SR? I would really be interested in such a solution that would deliver 7.3kW (together with the onboard charger).
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Heard from my dealer yesterday. The charger is factory installed. And cannot be installed on the older models. So it would have to be an option when the bike was ordered from the sounds of it.
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Just checked with Zero about backward compatibility. Some of this has already been shared, but here it is:
1) The 6kW Charge Tank is only available as a factory installed option on 18MY Zero motorcycles.
2) The 6kW Charge Tank does offer 6kW. You can plug in the on-board charger separately to get a full 7.3kW of charging power.
3) The 3.6kWh Power Tank is available as an aftermarket, dealer install accessory for 2015 and later Zero SDS motorcycles. However, it is only available with painted tanks, but in all available painted colors by model. So an owner of a 2015-2016 motorcycle would want to upgrade all their bodywork to the matching painted color.
If you own a 2014 Zero S/SR, let Zero know if you are interested in the 3.6kWh charge tank. They may be able to work something out.
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As much as I love zero and their progress each year, I think they messed up with this off-white "pearl" or whatever SR. I was even one of the people who would have voted for white as a new color, expecting it to pop like this picture
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4004.0
which is some guy's 2014 zero sr with a custom white paint job and it looks amazing
I kept watching the 2018 videos wondering why the new SR looked so underwhelming, and then I found the above picture of what real white looks like so I could see it side by side with a 2018 picture like this one
http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2018/small/sr/location/2018_zero-sr_outdoors-03_4800x3200_press.jpg
In comparison the 2018 white looks very dull and muted to me
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Does somebody know if the new Charge Tank is single phase?
The new charger work with J1772 which are single phase AC. This probably means they are just 240v single phase chargers.
The new cells are 32Ah but there is more to the these cells then just a capacity bump. =) It'll be interesting to see what people think of them.
No 3-phase support would be a serious bummer...
Just checked with Zero about backward compatibility. Some of this has already been shared, but here it is:
1) The 6kW Charge Tank is only available as a factory installed option on 18MY Zero motorcycles.
2) The 6kW Charge Tank does offer 6kW. You can plug in the on-board charger separately to get a full 7.3kW of charging power.
3) The 3.6kWh Power Tank is available as an aftermarket, dealer install accessory for 2015 and later Zero SDS motorcycles. However, it is only available with painted tanks, but in all available painted colors by model. So an owner of a 2015-2016 motorcycle would want to upgrade all their bodywork to the matching painted color.
If you own a 2014 Zero S/SR, let Zero know if you are interested in the 3.6kWh charge tank. They may be able to work something out.
That is interesting, I wonder what it would cost to upgrade. On the other hand, mixing different cells might get you some interesting fast charging behaviour.
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Birds love white. ;D
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Does somebody know if the new Charge Tank is single phase?
European level 2 AC standard Mennekes type2 mode 2 or 3, offering 3 phase, so if it is sold in Europe, I have to assume it'll use at least two of the phases, like the diginow solution does.
Then again, if it's just 6kw, maybe not.
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Does somebody know if the new Charge Tank is single phase?
European level 2 AC standard Mennekes type2 mode 2 or 3, offering 3 phase, so if it is sold in Europe, I have to assume it'll use at least two of the phases, like the diginow solution does.
Then again, if it's just 6kw, maybe not.
I'm not so sure about that, the last charge tank was also delivered with an J1772 inlet in Europe while everything is Mennekes over here.
Mennekes type charging can supply yup to 43kW of power so it should be able to sip 6kW on one phase but the most common charging stations here are 3-phase 11kW which will halve the charging power if they use only one phase.
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Mennekes socket with 3-phase support would definitely be good in Europe..
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Am I the only one that likes the white? (didn't read every page) DO WANT!!!!
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The white just looks like the cop bike.
But its the puke green DS that gets me. It died with the 2013 bikes so why is it back and not the better looking safer orange?
And while I'm at it why are there gold "blingy" wheels on the DSR? A DS model should have a little dust mud and grass on it not golden wheels, as a matter of fact they should be spokes too but I'll over look that.
I guess the battery and the charge tank are the stars this year.
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When will the put the hi-temp motors in the FX/S ? In AZ hottest parts of the year my DSR is tested and true, but I want an FXS and still see posts around about thermal issues.
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The most exciting thing about the 2018 bikes is how much the left over 2017 bikes are discounted. I just pulled the trigger on a demo '17 SR. All told, it was about 4k off. The best part is that I put 1/2 of the demo miles on it myself. ;D
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I'm not so sure about that, the last charge tank was also delivered with an J1772 inlet in Europe while everything is Mennekes over here.
Mennekes type charging can supply yup to 43kW of power so it should be able to sip 6kW on one phase but the most common charging stations here are 3-phase 11kW which will halve the charging power if they use only one phase.
It does have a J1772 once again, so just single phase, no onboard considered (driving it around but not using it) and exactly like you described it, on most AC stations which just offer 11 kW (so 16A each phase) it will just have an output of 3 kW. That is really stupid and sad. Although our AC charging infrastructure here in Europe is generally stronger and offers way more power (11 kW standard, 22 or even 43 kw common) than in the US, they don't make any use of it.
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I'm not so sure about that, the last charge tank was also delivered with an J1772 inlet in Europe while everything is Mennekes over here.
Mennekes type charging can supply yup to 43kW of power so it should be able to sip 6kW on one phase but the most common charging stations here are 3-phase 11kW which will halve the charging power if they use only one phase.
It does have a J1772 once again, so just single phase, no onboard considered (driving it around but not using it) and exactly like you described it, on most AC stations which just offer 11 kW (so 16A each phase) it will just have an output of 3 kW. That is really stupid and sad. Although our AC charging infrastructure here in Europe is generally stronger and offers way more power (11 kW standard, 22 or even 43 kw common) than in the US, they don't make any use of it.
Like Electric Terry wrote in the "dreams for 2018" thread, I'm starting to think Zero doesn't actually have execs that ride street motorcycles for non-commuting purposes. For commuting, the current range was already plenty.
The big missing pieces for touring or sport-touring is range, range, range, range and range, and decent charging.
Every single review, in multiple languages, that I've read of the S/SR/DSR ever has always ended with the bottom line: "Not yet ready for prime time due to the range issue", or "suitable as a commuter if you have another bike for day trips".
Newsflash for Zero: Many if not most markets are not like the US, and people can't afford or don't have garage space to keep more than a single bike, that has to o it all.
The requirement is
1) 150 miles on a tank at real highway speeds (80mph), preferably 200mi. And without going beyond a 250kg curb weight, or a bike that costs $25-$30K.
2) Being able to charge 80%-90% of that tank in 45min. Even that's not ideal, but at least I'd be able to plan a day ride with that 45min coinciding with a major meal break, plus another 20-30min topping off session on the return leg.
Tiny baby steps like the new Charge Tank are frustrating... $2300 for something which not only should be bog-standard, but takes up the only factory option for increased AER (the Power Tank).
Yes, 10-15% increases for onboard battery are nice, but only go so far. The 20-30% achievable with a decent fairing (not streamliner) for highway speeds are sorely needed.
Right now looks like there's not gonna be a Zero in my foreseeable future.
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I'm not so sure about that, the last charge tank was also delivered with an J1772 inlet in Europe while everything is Mennekes over here.
Mennekes type charging can supply yup to 43kW of power so it should be able to sip 6kW on one phase but the most common charging stations here are 3-phase 11kW which will halve the charging power if they use only one phase.
It does have a J1772 once again, so just single phase, no onboard considered (driving it around but not using it) and exactly like you described it, on most AC stations which just offer 11 kW (so 16A each phase) it will just have an output of 3 kW. That is really stupid and sad. Although our AC charging infrastructure here in Europe is generally stronger and offers way more power (11 kW standard, 22 or even 43 kw common) than in the US, they don't make any use of it.
Like Electric Terry wrote in the "dreams for 2018" thread, I'm starting to think Zero doesn't actually have execs that ride street motorcycles for non-commuting purposes. For commuting, the current range was already plenty.
The big missing pieces for touring or sport-touring is range, range, range, range and range, and decent charging.
Every single review, in multiple languages, that I've read of the S/SR/DSR ever has always ended with the bottom line: "Not yet ready for prime time due to the range issue", or "suitable as a commuter if you have another bike for day trips".
Newsflash for Zero: Many if not most markets are not like the US, and people can't afford or don't have garage space to keep more than a single bike, that has to o it all.
The requirement is
1) 150 miles on a tank at real highway speeds (80mph), preferably 200mi. And without going beyond a 250kg curb weight, or a bike that costs $25-$30K.
2) Being able to charge 80%-90% of that tank in 45min. Even that's not ideal, but at least I'd be able to plan a day ride with that 45min coinciding with a major meal break, plus another 20-30min topping off session on the return leg.
Tiny baby steps like the new Charge Tank are frustrating... $2300 for something which not only should be bog-standard, but takes up the only factory option for increased AER (the Power Tank).
Yes, 10-15% increases for onboard battery are nice, but only go so far. The 20-30% achievable with a decent fairing (not streamliner) for highway speeds are sorely needed.
Right now looks like there's not gonna be a Zero in my foreseeable future.
While i agree with some of the above, I am not sure you realize what it involve for requesting "(80mph), preferably for 200mi"...With the actual fairing, 80mph will not be very confortable .. adn worst for 200mph at that speed!
With actual fairing, running (80mph), for preferably 200mi would require about 40kWh!!.. that's 3 times the regular battery monolith energy!!
and charging 80% of that in 45 minutes would require about 40kW!!.. the problem is that the 40kW J1772 are very RARE.. you would need level 3 DC charge station.. however the one that can take the voltage of the Zero ( 102V) is very rare or not existant...
So... Conclusion :fairing are important!... Terry ever observed up to 100% range boost with the epic full unconventional fairing... so i guess Zero could improove range by 25% easy.. witch woudl require 25% less battery and probably also cost cheaper than battery.
Doc
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The other thing that we all have to keep in mind is that electric propulsion technology that is applicable to a small motorcycle frame is not well established or supported by the component industry. There just isn't a large enough market to develop specific technology for this application - yet. Most of the advancements are going to have to come from the automobile industry, which is much better funded and buys components in vastly greater volumes than does Zero, and the like.
A lot still needs to change, such as the high-speed electric motorcycle market going from sales of maybe 2000 units a year to 200,000 units a year. When that happens, the big motorcycle manufacturers will jump in, component prices will drop and performance will dramatically increase. I don't see something like this happening within the next ten years - unless there is another 1970's-type "gas crisis", or government pollution regulations become so draconian that electric vehicles are the only personal transportation that can be sold to the public, as has been discussed in some countries in Europe.
Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush". ;)
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Richard the latest episode of the Youtube show "Fully Charged" shows Bosch with scalable components that work for sporty ebikes retro fitted east block scooters and small car EV's. They seem pretty weak for now but plug and play is on it's way.
Now as to the charging, everyone knows J1772 isn't the best option (in the grand scheme) for charging EV's. The fact that it's "ok" and has taken so much market share has everyone shrugging their shoulders and accepting this false solution. It's a slippery slope of pumping money into a option that is not good enough for the mass public's idea of "refueling".
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Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush". ;)
Agree completely. Asking for quantum leaps in range and charging and then being annoyed that Zero can't produce miracles is downright ungrateful. They have made improvements every year and have come a long way. I am elated that Zero even exists and produces a real-world electric motorcyle that I can walk in and buy. If not for Zero where would we be? Yes there are well known limitations and I would love to see a fairing but I don't mind at all having a second motorcycle for longer trips - in fact, I enjoy it. Besides, my Zero has enough range for 90% of my riding anyway. It is unbeatable on shorter trips and around town - just ask the Buell rider that I absolutely smoked at a stoplight yesterday. Have some patience, the bikes are getting better and Zero has done an incredible job just by putting electric motorcycles on the map.
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The other thing that we all have to keep in mind is that electric propulsion technology that is applicable to a small motorcycle frame is not well established or supported by the component industry. There just isn't a large enough market to develop specific technology for this application - yet. Most of the advancements are going to have to come from the automobile industry, which is much better funded and buys components in vastly greater volumes than does Zero, and the like.
A lot still needs to change, such as the high-speed electric motorcycle market going from sales of maybe 2000 units a year to 200,000 units a year. When that happens, the big motorcycle manufacturers will jump in, component prices will drop and performance will dramatically increase. I don't see something like this happening within the next ten years - unless there is another 1970's-type "gas crisis", or government pollution regulations become so draconian that electric vehicles are the only personal transportation that can be sold to the public, as has been discussed in some countries in Europe.
I'm aware that BEV bikes are still a tiny market (although Zero itself already sold 2400 bikes in 2014; 2015 was "a lot less than 10K" according to their VP sales, but I thought they were already in the ~5K units/year territory -- can't find a reference a.t.m.) -- just like motorcycles are a small market compared to cars with the attendant disadvantages of low-volume production.
I'm not expecting propulsion tech per se to be as advanced & compact as for BEV cars... I also realize that the real difficulty in achieving good efficiency at high-ish speeds is in making bikes aerodynamic without fully enclosing everything including the rider. That's after all the reason for the really bad fuel economy of ICE motorcycles vs. cars, despite the much lower weight (30mph city scooters excepted).
I also understand Zero is trying to be very cautious, having seen what happened to every other would-be e-motorcycle maker (jury being still out on Energica) and wanting to avoid the same fate. The attempt the last couple of years to focus on fleet sales is clearly part of that, and smart IMO.
All that said, there are points in time where any startup company has to take risks. I'm thinking Zero is at or near that point... A lot of the street-motorcycle market uses bikes for weekend/vacation leisure trips, with or without commuting added (actually, in the US, I'm pretty sure that market's far larger than commuting). I have a lot of environmentally minded, and/or tech-minded, riding friends, none of whom would consider a bike they can't take weekend day trips on (*).
This is what I mean by a "day trip", in my neck of the woods:
— ~100mi at ~70mph on the freeway to get to the fun roads;
— ~100mi ditto to get back home
— ~150-200mi at a range of slower speeds (30-60mph, but a lot of acceleration/deceleration) on the twisties & sweepers.
(and a bit more than that for a bit of emergency reserve, like accidents, breakdowns etc.)
That doesn’t mean a 400mi range is needed on a single charge, but for a reasonable day-tour experience, I want to be able to do it with at most 2 charging stops (one 45min at lunch, and an additional 30min one).
Look, I'm not asking for radically denser or cheaper batteries or motors. My criticism of Zero is that they're not addressing the two big issues necessary for this (much more important than a 10% improvement in cell capacity, IMHO):
1) Improving efficiency via aerodynamics, which is clearly possible and necessary (and Electric Terry has demonstrated that it's possible in practice, even on a bike with lots of extra battery & charger weight).
Yes, I'm sure Zero doesn't have any aerodynamics experts in-house, let alone a wind tunnel. But they could certainly team up with a fairing maker for this and sell the resulting fairings either themselves, or as dealer-installed add-ons, for serious mark ups.
2) Quick Charging is a huge deal.
a)Even with the new Charge Tank, it's ~1.5hr to charge the new S to 80% (for ~80mi highway riding).
b) Without it, the stock charger is borderline even for overnight. If I return from a trip or from work late at night, I may not have >6 hours of charging until I need to ride the next morning to work, so it's going to take 2 days+ of night time charging to get back a full charge... If I don't have workplace charging but need the full highway range (~80mi) for a long trip before then, I'm in trouble. Even if high-rate charging takes a lot of space on the bike or would be very expensive, not having 2-3kW as standard AC charging is inexcusable, particularly in 220V countries like here, where every single wall outlet is capable of a sustained 15A 220V (I have a 3kW electric kettle).
b) Energica seems to be able to fit a DC CCS charger, a 3kW AC charger and a ~12kWh battery on a bike, on a slightly longer bike with similar-capacity battery. Yes, it's a lot heavier (mostly because their batteries are less dense, IIRC), but still, that includes the fairing. CCS is gaining quick acceptance everywhere (except possibly Japan), and essentially all DCFC stations going forward will support it. The Energica charger does 20kW, from reports I've seen, which is quite enough for 80% of a 13kWh in 30min.
In the future, once there are bike design with additional battery bricks for 21kWh / 28kWh, that extra charging speed will be absolutely necessary anyway.
If that solution is too expensive for Zero to have it standard, make it optional but leave space for it so it doesn't take up lots of space.
Without both those improvements, any kind of day-trip use-case is out. Nothing against Diginow's solution, but it requires a lot of DIY and messing about with electrics, aside from the space and expense. That's a pretty big barrier to adoption.
With both above improvements, and a battery like the new 2018 models', I could get 100-110mi on a "tank" at slightly lower highway speeds than I'm used to, with 10-15 mi of safety margin -- I could compromise on that as an early-adopter, but below that, my entire justification for a motorcycle is out.
Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush". ;)
That's just it -- if Zero was willing, I'm sure this would be doable in 1-2 years, not 10.
(*)We have a 250% Customs Duty on motorcycles, and "only" 80% on electric ones...
Mandatory liability insurance (1st+3d party medical only, not damage to any property) on a >250CC bike with max discount for a 50-y.o. rider with no previous claims or license suspensions would be the equivalent of US$1130 .
Annual comprehensive coverage (to the bike itself + 3d party property) for, say, a new R1200GS (MSRP and street price ~US$40100) would be an additional US$4000 (not a typo).
So most folks here can't afford to keep 2 bikes...
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Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush". ;)
Agree completely. Asking for quantum leaps in range and charging and then being annoyed that Zero can't produce miracles is downright ungrateful. They have made improvements every year and have come a long way. I am elated that Zero even exists and produces a real-world electric motorcyle that I can walk in and buy. If not for Zero where would we be? Yes there are well known limitations and I would love to see a fairing but I don't mind at all having a second motorcycle for longer trips - in fact, I enjoy it. Besides, my Zero has enough range for 90% of my riding anyway. It is unbeatable on shorter trips and around town - just ask the Buell rider that I absolutely smoked at a stoplight yesterday. Have some patience, the bikes are getting better and Zero has done an incredible job just by putting electric motorcycles on the map.
What's with the "ungrateful"? I'm happy for you you live somewhere where keeping 2 bikes is an option. Not the case for lots of people, myself included.
I stated what would be necessary for Zero to sell me a bike and (IMHO) to lots of other people -- again, the number of mainstream reviews where the bottom line is "not ready for prime time" is instructive, and pretty much the only real issues are range/charging. Doing it here, among other places, because AFAIK some if not many Zero employees follow the board.
As for patience... I'm hoping to be able to justify a Zero before I'm a complete codger (-: .
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Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush". ;)
Agree completely. Asking for quantum leaps in range and charging and then being annoyed that Zero can't produce miracles is downright ungrateful. They have made improvements every year and have come a long way. I am elated that Zero even exists and produces a real-world electric motorcyle that I can walk in and buy. If not for Zero where would we be? Yes there are well known limitations and I would love to see a fairing but I don't mind at all having a second motorcycle for longer trips - in fact, I enjoy it. Besides, my Zero has enough range for 90% of my riding anyway. It is unbeatable on shorter trips and around town - just ask the Buell rider that I absolutely smoked at a stoplight yesterday. Have some patience, the bikes are getting better and Zero has done an incredible job just by putting electric motorcycles on the map.
What's with the "ungrateful"? I'm happy for you you live somewhere where keeping 2 bikes is an option. Not the case for lots of people, myself included.
I stated what would be necessary for Zero to sell me a bike and (IMHO) to lots of other people -- again, the number of mainstream reviews where the bottom line is "not ready for prime time" is instructive, and pretty much the only real issues are range/charging. Doing it here, among other places, because AFAIK some if not many Zero employees follow the board.
As for patience... I'm hoping to be able to justify a Zero before I'm a complete codger (-: .
Maybe I should've said unrealistic instead of ungrateful. My point is that Zero gets a lot of flak and yet they're the only game in town and I think they trying very hard to make improvements. They are a small company, not Tesla. I am grateful that they are making real motorcycles that work very well for a lot of us.
PS, there is nothing wrong with being a codger. I happen to be 66 and I play my 20-year-old taller, stronger son even in one-on-one basketball, still race bicycles and I ride the hell out of my motorcycles. May you enjoy codgerhood as much as I do. :)
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I think Zero is doing the best that they can in a price sensitive market. No doubt they could provide a fancy fairing, more batteries, a fast DC charger and a bigger motor - if they wanted to sell their bikes for $40K USD (like Lightning, as an example). But then they would sell much fewer of them and that wouldn't do much to expand the market to non-EV enthusiasts. No doubt Zero is trying to get new IC motorcycle enthusiasts to buy their products, not so much the people who visit this site. That is the way you slowly drag the electric motorcycles into the mainstream motorcycle market. ;)
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Richard the latest episode of the Youtube show "Fully Charged" shows Bosch with scalable components that work for sporty ebikes retro fitted east block scooters and small car EV's. ...
Thanks for the reference to the Fully Charged episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5TDZ6irG4
I love the East German scooter resurrected as an electric vehicle.
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I think Zero is doing the best that they can in a price sensitive market. No doubt they could provide a fancy fairing, more batteries, a fast DC charger and a bigger motor - if they wanted to sell their bikes for $40K USD (like Lightning, as an example). But then they would sell much fewer of them and that wouldn't do much to expand the market to non-EV enthusiasts.
Maybe the market is that price-sensitive, though I'm not so sure, given my local ICE motorcycle market that manages to sell bikes at all despite said 250% tariffs (granted, less per-capita than elsewhere... 90% of powered two-wheelers are <250CC scooters, vs. 10% in Europe or the US). Or maybe Zero is still too small / doesn't have enough investment capital to do the extra R&D in parallel with the drivetrain improvements, improving quality & service, marketing etc.
No doubt Zero is trying to get new IC motorcycle enthusiasts to buy their products, not so much the people who visit this site.
Aha! But that was one of my points, I suspect Zero will very quickly reach the point of exhausting commuters... Aside from real dirt bikes & fleets, that leaves the road-trip folks.
That is the way you slowly drag the electric motorcycles into the mainstream motorcycle market. ;)
I hope you're right -- it'll be very sad if Zero fails, leaving essentially noone. If that happens, I suspect it'll delay e-motorcycles by another 20-30 years.
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I think Zero is doing the best that they can in a price sensitive market. No doubt they could provide a fancy fairing, more batteries, a fast DC charger and a bigger motor - if they wanted to sell their bikes for $40K USD (like Lightning, as an example). But then they would sell much fewer of them and that wouldn't do much to expand the market to non-EV enthusiasts.
Maybe the market is that price-sensitive, though I'm not so sure, given my local ICE motorcycle market that manages to sell bikes at all despite said 250% tariffs (granted, less per-capita than elsewhere... 90% of powered two-wheelers are <250CC scooters, vs. 10% in Europe or the US). Or maybe Zero is still too small / doesn't have enough investment capital to do the extra R&D in parallel with the drivetrain improvements, improving quality & service, marketing etc.
No doubt Zero is trying to get new IC motorcycle enthusiasts to buy their products, not so much the people who visit this site.
Aha! But that was one of my points, I suspect Zero will very quickly reach the point of exhausting commuters... Aside from real dirt bikes & fleets, that leaves the road-trip folks.
That is the way you slowly drag the electric motorcycles into the mainstream motorcycle market. ;)
I hope you're right -- it'll be very sad if Zero fails, leaving essentially noone. If that happens, I suspect it'll delay e-motorcycles by another 20-30 years.
My opinions are developed from my own 55-year motorcycle riding/purchasing experiences in the U.S.( which, granted is a different type of market than in many other countries) and whenever I can discuss the subject of electric motorcycles with the general public and current IC motorcycle owners. The two major comments that I hear from the public is that EV range is too short and that the price is too high. Now most of us could make an argument that these comments are not entirely valid, but that is what the public's perception appears to be. And perception is what really counts to a new vehicle manufacturer trying to expand the market within the limits of their finances - and that doesn't have the type of resources that a company like Tesla or GM does.
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life is full of choices
those who will not compromise on range and rate of refueling
will stick to fossil fuel for the time being, and lose out
on smooth quiet ride, non-emissions, and low cost per mile.
as more and more people adopt electric, there will be a glut
of old fossil fuel vehicles available, which will make them
even cheaper to buy, making it even harder to justify for the
above folks. unless they take quality of life (emissions) or
cost per mile into account.
cost-sensitive bottom line low-mile folks will stick to fossil
for some time to come unless the externalized costs of polluting
are rationalized.
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As an aside, Zero appears to have published the owner's manuals for 2018.
Small details that I extracted from a quick scan:
- More error codes are described.
- The MBB now contains a tip-over sensor (4.3 of the S platform manual) that locks out the throttle until you key the bike off and on.
- In various places, there seems to be more explanatory details.
- The Charge Tank has a note that indicates that for longbrick models (S/DS 7.2), using the onboard charger in conjunction with the Charge Tank will exceed the battery's charge limit, which I read to mean that the new Charge Tank really does offer 6kW of separate charging capacity.
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owners manuals are at
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/
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owners manuals are at
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/
Thanks togo. :)
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Interesting. There's a side storage compartment on some 2018 models according to the owner's manual.
Also there's this:
WARNING: Only use Zero approved accessory chargers.
Damage, malfunctions, or performance problems caused
by the installation or use of any charger not sold or
approved by Zero will void the warranty of your Zero
Motorcycle.
owners manuals are at
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/
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"... or approved by Zero."
Hopefully the SCv2 will be approved?
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
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Also there's this:
WARNING: Only use Zero approved accessory chargers.
Damage, malfunctions, or performance problems caused
by the installation or use of any charger not sold or
approved by Zero will void the warranty of your Zero
Motorcycle.
That quote isn't new to 2018, though.
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OK. I was comparing it to the 2015 DS/S manual.
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Interesting. There's a side storage compartment on some 2018 models according to the owner's manual.
That's referring to the longbrick (half-monolith) variants of the S and DS, introduced in 2017. The aft half of the battery area is a compartment where the right side plastics swing out on a hinge and draw-cable for access (once unlocked).
There's a "ZF6.5" page for this, although 2018 models are ZF7.2:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/motorcycles/zf6.5/