ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: gyrocyclist on October 13, 2017, 05:51:45 AM
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(please redirect if there's a previous thread on this)
I almost always use Chargepoint stations without difficulty. Last week, for the first time, I tried charging at a Blink (J1772; two elcon chargers). Got everything hooked up, charging started, then after a few seconds stopped. The charging station console showed a bright red message which, as best I remembered, said I'd drawn too much current (my credit card was charged .01 cents, US).
Shortly thereafter I found a (free) chargepoint station, and everything worked fine.
Question: has anyone else had success failure with Blink? Aside from Chargepoint, what networks do you recommend/not recommend?
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Chargepoint is the only network that I use regularly and has been reliable. EVgo is common around my area too, but I am not a fan of their subscription plans.
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The Chargepoint and Clipper Creek and Volta and and EVgo stations in the areas I ride have been much more reliable than the Blink ones.
So for me, Blink stations are a last resort.
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I have seen a few Blink Stations but have never attempted to use one.
I have noticed a number of stations around that are only 3.3 KW on level two.
If this was one of those, that could be the problem. I have had ChargePoint
stations give me similar issues when using the level one outlet. If you wish to
pursue the Blink chargers, you might try One Elcon to see how it fares.
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I agree. I find that almost all Blink stations I encounter have unreadable screens, and are difficult to activate. However, here at least it seems that there are more of them than other types of stations unfortunately. Also, it appears that almost all of the Blink installations are 208V and Chargepoints are 240V, so there's bit of difference in power delivered.
Also, like others have said, a large number of Blink stations were installed many many years ago and are only 3.3kW max. When I have needed to charge, I frequently find two next to each other and use my two J-plugs to get 3.3+3.3 charging and get back on the road more quickly. Fortunately, I have multiple chargers so I can do this.
I highly recommend looking at the comments for a station on Plugshare app, for Blink stations it is very helpful.
This is in Texas / southern US
Otherwise, I basically choose to carry keyfobs for every single charging network in my area just to be safe and have options. Including have 2x Chargepoint and 2x Blink for #DubJay charging.
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After riding through all the lower 48 states on my Zero, here are my impressions of charging networks & stations:
Chargepoint is the best. I always look for them and they are my first option. Partly because the station texts me when charging is complete or interrupted. BMW dealerships use Chargepoint.
Blink is the worst. I have had 50% success with blink stations and some of that success was charging under 6.6kW. They often work only at 4.5kw which is why you got that error message. I have received the same message several times.
evGo is good. You can count on them to work almost all of the time. I have been burned only twice by them under very unusual circumstances.
Nissan Dealerships are very good. They use Aerovironment chargers and they are solid.
Clipper Creek are also excellent, right up there with Chargepoint. They are bombproof & always work. The only reason I like chargepoint better is because the station communicates with me.
SemaConnect chargers are very good. In my experience they always work, though I have heard from others that they sometimes have issues. Plugshare has been pretty reliable in identifying stations that are out of order.
Eaton chargers have not always worked for me, but newer models seem to be better than older stations.
GE Wattstations used to not work with Elcons, but I have successfully used newer style GE Wattstations with Elcons and the digiNow supercharger.
Tesla destination chargers can be used with an adapter and they are rock solid. I did arrive at one that didn't work for me, but have charged at a dozen or so that worked great.
Ford dealerships use Leviton stations and they have worked for me.
Another good option if you have an adapter is RV Parks. They often have a row of 50 amp connections.
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One to add, not so many in the USA but they appear to be the bomb if you ever do coast to coast in Canada.
suncountryhighway.com
SunCountryHighway's SCH100 chargers can handle 80 amps, that's full 1C charging on any Zero from a single J-plug!
There aren't many around but you can sponsor one if you want!
https://www.suncountryhighway.com/en/Product/Sponsor-a-Charger
(you pay for a charger and they do all the regulatory and installation stuff.)
I recall there being one on the way to Reno that was sponsored by a Tesla club, and there are several near the bay area at hotels.
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Do chargins stations in NA support OCPP?
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Do chargins stations in NA support OCPP?
I am afraid not. I never heard of OCPP until you mentioned this. Wikipedia says "it is not highly adopted in the United States" and I have never seen anything referring to it. Sounds like a good idea though.
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Thank you Netherlands for pushing standardization of charging payment!
ChargePoint to adopt it:
https://www.chargepoint.com/about/news/chargepoint-adopts-ocpp-its-charging-stations/
EVConnect offers it:
https://www.evconnect.com/ocpp/
So it looks like OCPP is coming to the USA.
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GE Wattstations used to not work with Elcons, but I have successfully used newer style GE Wattstations with Elcons and the digiNow supercharger.
That may be an issue with your J1772 socket instead of the charger (Elcon vs DigiNow). I have a "dumb" socket and it does not work with GE Wattstations that I have tried, but has worked with Eaton charging stations and will try others.
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I will go out of my way to use a ChargePoint station as
1) I can see if it's in use before I get there
2) The map shows easily how many port handles are available if I'm looking to #dubjay I can see it from the main map without clicking on it like plugshare makes you do
3) Like Ben said it will text you when done
4) It also texts you if the bike overcurrents or if someone unplugs you
5) You can view your charging rate, graph and see total kWh added at any time
6) they usually come with a modest charge per hour and some per kWh too which is good. The free stations seem to more and more be full from someone living close by trying to save a couple cents by not charging at home and charging somewhere else for free. (I admit that was a fun game the first 3 weeks I had my Zero in 2012, but some people are obsessed with doing that and so it makes clipper creeks in high demand areas never available)
7) It records your lifetime charging history so you can look up your usage over time with adjustable parameters
ChargePoint (both the app and the stations) are just far superior and my 1st choice
Blink like others stated I will not even bother using anymore. Just a complete waste of space on the charging map is my opinion.
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I'm almost with you, Terry.
I check Volta app first, ChargePoint app second, the MyMaps third, and Plugshare fourth.
Being able to see if a station is in use is the best feature. Both V and CP do that.
Being notified when you stop charging is also awesome. Only CP does that.
And you are right about the free stations getting occupied by freeloaders.
The other day I met a Prius owner who occupied a spot for 90 minutes
charging at 2200 watts.
He didn't even know his vehicle charged at such a crap-slow rate, he'd just been
told he'd save money.
$1/hr is a great rate, and the best stations switch to an expensive rate
after a couple of hours to encourage people to treat them as charging
rather than parking.
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Thank you Netherlands for pushing standardization of charging payment!
ChargePoint to adopt it:
https://www.chargepoint.com/about/news/chargepoint-adopts-ocpp-its-charging-stations/
EVConnect offers it:
https://www.evconnect.com/ocpp/
So it looks like OCPP is coming to the USA.
Good that you're catching up! Having to carry only one token is such a relief.
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There is a wiki page to update for this:
https://zeromanual.com/index.php/EV_Charging#Charging_Networks
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There is a wiki page to update for this:
https://zeromanual.com/index.php/EV_Charging#Charging_Networks
Great; many thanks!
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The free stations seem to more and more be full from someone living close by trying to save a couple cents by not charging at home and charging somewhere else for free. (I admit that was a fun game the first 3 weeks I had my Zero in 2012, but some people are obsessed with doing that and so it makes clipper creeks in high demand areas never available)
I used to think this until recently. Some people dont have a garage or parking spot they can plug in at, and have to rely on these charging spots for everyday use. New guy at my work has to walk a 1/4 mile to his leaf everyday. He just moved here and its hard to find an inexpensive place to live near work. He ended up in a place where he thought he could street charge with a cord but turns out he cannot. The city doesnt like cords.
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This is a difficult time for us who are still "early" adopters of the technology. The infrastructure just isn't quite adequate to make widespread adoption possible, and the technology isn't widespread enough to drive fast infrastructure creation quite yet. The snowball's just starting to roll downhill.
I like to remind myself what the early ICE vehicle adopters went through 100 years or so ago on our behalf. I hear that gasoline was, at best, sold in cans at some hardware stores. You really had to be committed to your horseless carriage to make it work.
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This is a difficult time for us who are still "early" adopters of the technology. The infrastructure just isn't quite adequate to make widespread adoption possible, and the technology isn't widespread enough to drive fast infrastructure creation quite yet. The snowball's just starting to roll downhill.
I like to remind myself what the early ICE vehicle adopters went through 100 years or so ago on our behalf. I hear that gasoline was, at best, sold in cans at some hardware stores. You really had to be committed to your horseless carriage to make it work.
Doug is right about finding gasoline in the good ole days. ;) Also, you had to use LPA (light pedal assistance) to get up hills. Books about motorcycle history mention that more than one early motorcycle owner had a heart attack while using LPA. At least that isn't a problem with electric motorcycles and scooters. But maybe it is with all of the heavy e-bikes that are coming into the market lately. ::)
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I'll do a little back-of-the-napkin calculation for the sake of argument and since I just got back from a somewhat challenging Zero trip where I had a lot of time to think:
Given the energy equivalent of 33.4kWh/gal for gasoline/petroleum (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent):
11.4kWh (nominal) amounts to 0.341 gal of petrol.
A 1C charge rate then is 0.341 gal/hr or 0.005688 gal/min * 768 teaspoon/gal = 4.368 teaspoons of petrol equivalent per minute.
That's 0.07 teaspoons of gasoline per second, and there are roughly 100 drops in a teaspoon, which means you could watch the same energy transfer by watching single drops of gasoline fall from a spigot!
And on top of that, in some places you can only get this drip rate once every 60-100 miles (RV parks' 50A plug if it works fully) for a connection fee of $10 ($5 or free with minimal persuasion, but you get the idea).
So, yeah, gasoline is massively more convenient right now with a huge stack of infrastructure supporting in and spent just distributing it. I spent a few times during my trip mentioning how a Tesla with the largest purchasable battery of 100kWh yields the energy equivalent of 3 gallons of petrol. The electric infrastructure in the USA is only barely ready to support EV usage, and it helps a lot to have Tesla's and other auto manufacturers' weight thrown behind charging network buildout.
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You worked out the correct thermal energy transfer rate. As thermal energy doesn't twist a shaft without some inherently very lossy conversions to shaft power, our charge rate taking on equal 'traction useful' energy is about 3.5-4x better than your estimate. However, this just means faster dripping, and I agree whole heartedly that a modern EV charge infrastructure needs to be shifted up at least a full order of magnitude in charging power rates.
The 32amp 220vac J plug stations are a brilliant play by SAE (the oil companies RnD front) to ensure all the infrastructure being installed today (aside from Tesla superchargers and CHAdeMO etc) offers only the cosmetic gesture of charging rather than being useful infrastructure to enable an all EV future.
I try not to stop to charge unless it's a site I can tap 3 Jplugs minimum and max them all out, and this still seems inadequate for a motorcycle....
I'll do a little back-of-the-napkin calculation for the sake of argument and since I just got back from a somewhat challenging Zero trip where I had a lot of time to think:
Given the energy equivalent of 33.4kWh/gal for gasoline/petroleum (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent):
11.4kWh (nominal) amounts to 0.341 gal of petrol.
A 1C charge rate then is 0.341 gal/hr or 0.005688 gal/min * 768 teaspoon/gal = 4.368 teaspoons of petrol equivalent per minute.
That's 0.07 teaspoons of gasoline per second, and there are roughly 100 drops in a teaspoon, which means you could watch the same energy transfer by watching single drops of gasoline fall from a spigot!
And on top of that, in some places you can only get this drip rate once every 60-100 miles (RV parks' 50A plug if it works fully) for a connection fee of $10 ($5 or free with minimal persuasion, but you get the idea).
So, yeah, gasoline is massively more convenient right now with a huge stack of infrastructure supporting in and spent just distributing it. I spent a few times during my trip mentioning how a Tesla with the largest purchasable battery of 100kWh yields the energy equivalent of 3 gallons of petrol. The electric infrastructure in the USA is only barely ready to support EV usage, and it helps a lot to have Tesla's and other auto manufacturers' weight thrown behind charging network buildout.
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You worked out the correct thermal energy transfer rate. As thermal energy doesn't twist a shaft without some inherently very lossy conversions to shaft power, our charge rate taking on equal 'traction useful' energy is about 3.5-4x better than your estimate. However, this just means faster dripping, and I agree whole heartedly that a modern EV charge infrastructure needs to be shifted up at least a full order of magnitude in charging power rates.
The 32amp 220vac J plug stations are a brilliant play by SAE (the oil companies RnD front) to ensure all the infrastructure being installed today (aside from Tesla superchargers and CHAdeMO etc) offers only the cosmetic gesture of charging rather than being useful infrastructure to enable an all EV future.
I try not to stop to charge unless it's a site I can tap 3 Jplugs minimum and max them all out, and this still seems inadequate for a motorcycle....
Thanks for the conversion factor corrections; that'll help make a better argument however I try to form it on the wiki/manual.
220VAC are an important broad first step in adoption and awareness, even if it's frustrating. Part of my Pacific Northwest trip annoyance was how to find even 2 available 6.6 J stations in cable-spanning distance to charge at 4-brick 1C. So I wound up bouncing between hotel J/Tesla stations, RV parks, and the broadly-available expensive J stations where necessary.
Even the RV stations were at their best providing 45A in a 50A plug and another nearly-30A out of a secondary plug.
Until there's a widely-available HVDC network with reliable step-down, this is the situation, though: plotting trips between the largest AC outlet clusters already set up.
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One to add, not so many in the USA but they appear to be the bomb if you ever do coast to coast in Canada.
suncountryhighway.com
SunCountryHighway's SCH100 chargers can handle 80 amps, that's full 1C charging on any Zero from a single J-plug!
There aren't many around but you can sponsor one if you want!
https://www.suncountryhighway.com/en/Product/Sponsor-a-Charger
(you pay for a charger and they do all the regulatory and installation stuff.)
I recall there being one on the way to Reno that was sponsored by a Tesla club, and there are several near the bay area at hotels.
I just wanted to quickly vouch for how awesome the sun country network is in Canada. My experience with them on the west coast is awesome! For reference, they are just branded(front cover) Clipper Creek stations. They are usually a solo station as they are one of first EV stations installed in Canada. But a lot of little towns have them . Usually the ONLY station in the whole town minus the local RV park. Most are at least 60 amp stations with a few as high as 80amps. Though because they sell residential stations 30 amps and 15 amp stations are out there.
Charge point is the preferred network for all the reasons Terry mentioned. However, you have to watch for 3.3-6-6kw shared stations that share a total of 9.9kw or so. Common in singlular applications and in rows at the ends closest to the store front.
FLO, formerly "add energie" (french?) Is another large network in populated areas in Canada. I keep getting mixed results so 5-6kw is best guess. Faulting the station, is no big deal, just let the station reset put everything back. But annoying. I have checked CSA specs stamped on every station I have used: 30 amps... Requires a card... $10 CAD. And maybe by phone app. Otherwise find someone with a card at local facility. (I try and avoid this one).
Eaton- usually at banks... Lol. 20-30amps 4.4-6kw. Rare. Is pretty much much a plug and play but my experience has been about a 50% hit rate with the diginow. Uncertain that the Zero charger would be a different outcome. But I haven't run into one that didn't having another station a short distance away... Lol...yet!
There quick 411 on Western Canada [emoji23]
Plus Tesla's of course.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
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It just struck me, that those companies putting chargepoints in places deliver fairly low power with mixed results but a newcomer company like Tesla builds a *very* large network (Continental US, Canada, all over Europe) using a single standard and delivering loads of power... Why can't GE or EDF (Or Vattenfall using green power) build a network like this... They are orders of magnitude bigger than Tesla and already have the infra...
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The last Tesla to take on General Electric died a pauper.
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The last Tesla to take on General Electric died a pauper.
LOL.
It just struck me, that those companies putting chargepoints in places deliver fairly low power with mixed results but a newcomer company like Tesla builds a *very* large network (Continental US, Canada, all over Europe) using a single standard and delivering loads of power... Why can't GE or EDF (Or Vattenfall using green power) build a network like this... They are orders of magnitude bigger than Tesla and already have the infra...
the U.S. charging network came into being largely through a number of large U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) grants that let the network provider choose their system. Since most of the network providers were also charge station manufacturers, this served as motivation for an EV infrastructure land grab.
(stolen from here and edited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Charge_Point_Protocol )
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> I just wanted to quickly vouch for how awesome the sun country network is in Canada. My experience with them on the west coast is awesome! For reference, they are just branded(front cover) Clipper Creek stations.
Thanks! That's good to know.
https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80
I'll see if I can find high-amp clipper creek stations listed somewhere for the metamap.
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Aerovironment has a $19.99/mo *unlimited* charging plan, and good coverage along coastal Oregon and Washington, so it's a network to look into if you charge there. Their per-session price is $4, so they obviously have cars rather than motorcycles on the mind. I favor pricing that encourages people to move on and not occupy spaces. $1/hr or 15c/kw is ideal.
https://www.evsolutions.com/Upload/Evnetwork/WCEH_Map.pdf