ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: ESokoloff on October 01, 2017, 08:25:07 PM
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A few days ago I managed to get the motor temperature on my 16 DSR up to 245+°f
The high temp indicator kicks in around 210° & it's my understanding that at a certain point the power will automatically be limited.
My question is should I not worry about managing temperatures & put my trust in Zero's system or actively monitor/manage the temp(s)?
Note that this over temp occurrence is a unique situation that is infrequent & involves a substantial elevation gain in a relatively short distance.
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Permanent magnets start to demagnetise at something like 85c (185f) causing permanent damage. I'm not sure what temperatures the magnets zero uses in their motors can tolerate. I wouldn't trust their systems too much though. They have already proven they don't know what they are doing with their batteries e.g.. their charging recommendation to always keep it at 100%. They have finally corrected that per the large thread in this forum..
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A few days ago I managed to get the motor temperature on my 16 DSR up to 245+°f
The high temp indicator kicks in around 210° & it's my understanding that at a certain point the power will automatically be limited.
My question is should I not worry about managing temperatures & put my trust in Zero's system or actively monitor/manage the temp(s)?
Note that this over temp occurrence is a unique situation that is infrequent & involves a substantial elevation gain in a relatively short distance.
Esokoff - Good question. With the roads I ride on, it’s easy for me to easily exceed 212f (100c). On my SR, I have about 23K on it. This past summer I exceeded 240f a few times. I haven’t noticed any degradation in the bikes performance to-date.
A review of previous threads indicate heat management is far superior on the newer models than the older models.
I do hope someone is able to provide a hard answer to your question.
I'm thinking - As you have a 16 DSR, you’ll be fine as my 14 SR will be.
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..... " They have already proven they don't know what they are doing with their batteries ....."
Primus - On your reply, I must take exception to one part of it.
As we are early adopters, guess what - we’re part of Zero’s R&D team.
Their product isn’t perfect but neither are the big automakers products. Please remind me - How long have they been in business?
Primus - I have a 14 SR, not long ago I saw a 17 SR. I was amazed at how much in such a short time they have changed. Zero is just barely 10 years old. When Zero hits 20, I'm sure my bike will look like a dinosaur.
This forum - I’m sure Zero closely monitors this platform. Because of the many items posted by our international group, good and bad, we all continue to benefit. I, for one, have benefited a tremendous amount for all the threads.
Zero in Scott’s Valley - If you haven’t been there, please go. There are real people there and those real people do care.
Side note: I did go there for the first time about 3 weeks ago and my whole perception of Zero changed. I only visited with Lydia and Nicklaus. My short visit changed everything for me.
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Permanent magnets start to demagnetise at something like 85c (185f) causing permanent damage. I'm not sure what temperatures the magnets zero uses in their motors can tolerate. I wouldn't trust their systems too much though. They have already proven they don't know what they are doing with their batteries e.g.. their charging recommendation to always keep it at 100%. They have finally corrected that per the large thread in this forum..
uhh not to be a dick dude, but practically everything you just posted was wrong.
while SOME permanent magnets have a curie temp that low, neodymium magnets come in diffrent grades, and have a curie temp range of 100C (grade M) to 200C (grade EH)... the magnets in your zero motor are not as hot as the thermocouple in the windings, AND that temp is still below the magnet rating... so its fine.
as far as telling people to not keep it plugged in 100% of the time, that depends. Do you care about the loss over time from battery degradation, or do you care that you can grab it at anytime and have full range? I only care about the latter. Like my cell phone, I keep it fully charged when I can, and if it drops too low for me to use I will just get another. That said, whats more dangerous to a lipo, being kept charged, or over-discharging, followed by recharging? If you know anything about lithium batteries, you would know that the chance of a short occuring after overdischarging is a big danger, while the staying charged isnt dangerous, it just shortens the capacity over time.
From zero's perspective, the danger is people letting the bike sit unplugged... NOT people losing a tiny bit of capacity over time. honestly if it was a major concern, instead of charging to max volts per cell, like 4.2v they would charge to something a bit lower, like 4.15v and call it 100%... oh. wait.
they are not stupid. they have guidelines because their customers dont know and are not going to learn electrical theory followed by lipo battery basics just to charge their bikes. think of the guidelines as the instructions you would give your mother or grandfather to operate it... not necessarily the cutting edge best advice, but enough that you dont have to worry about them... its simple, if in doubt, just keep it plugged in.
all this worry for loss that no one has documented happening on a zero yet.... mostly attributable to the fact they dont fully charge the battery. leaving off that last half volt per cell, extends the life considerably.
back on topic though... the monitoring system for the motor is simple, never let it go over a set amount, and then the magnet can never excced that amount. basic physics explains why that works.
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Another hoover board blew up the other day in a mall while charging and made it on national TV last night. :o On the other hand, I haven't seen a similar video of a Zero on fire for over 10 years now. ;)
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.……...........
back on topic though... the monitoring system for the motor is simple, never let it go over a set amount, and then the magnet can never excced that amount. basic physics explains why that works.
Well that didn't help me much.
Do I put my faith in the bike/Zero or do I take an active roll in this process?
And what would that "set amount" be?
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Do I put my faith in the bike/Zero or do I take an active roll in this process?
Try to ride the bike within it's limits so the protection circuitry doesn't kick in unless you're in an emergency situation. It's up to you what constitutes an emergency.
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Do I put my faith in the bike/Zero or do I take an active roll in this process?
Try to ride the bike within it's limits so the protection circuitry doesn't kick in unless you're in an emergency situation. It's up to you what constitutes an emergency.
What are it's limits?
I know that the hi temp warning kicks in at 210-212°f but that's all I know.
I'm unsure at what temperature power is automatically reduced and my question is, should I trust Zero to manage this for me?
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Page 4.5 of the 2016 S/SR/DS/DSR manual.
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Page 4.5 of the 2016 S/SR/DS/DSR manual.
Ok, here's that....
"Temperature Indicator
reduction, you can choose to slow down a bit until the indicator stops flashing.
Zero Motorcycles has developed the most advanced passively air-cooled electric powertrain for your Zero motorcycle, delivering an unsurpassed level of simplicity, power/energy density, low weight and ease of maintenance. However, this passively air-cooled powertrain cannot be operated indefinitely at high
• Stage 2, if temperature continues to build, the indicator light will go solid, letting you know that the thermal strategy is now being applied and that your motorcycle’s power will be reduced accordingly. If you encounter the strategy while trying to maintain a high vehicle speed, the effect of the strategy will be that your motorcycle will be gradually slowed down to the point that the top speed of the bike is “sustainable,†from a thermal standpoint. If you encounter the strategy due to a different sustained high power event, such as continued powering through a low traction surface, power will simply be reduced to ensure the continued safe operation of your powertrain.
power / high rpm without reaching its thermal limitations. Hence, your Zero motorcycle has a sophisticated thermal management strategy to ensure the long term performance and durability of its powertrain.
The red temperature indicator light (A) on your Zero motorcycle’s lower dash has two informational stages.
Please note that the lighting of this temperature indicator does not indicate that there’s anything malfunctioning with your Zero motorcycle; it is simply letting you know that the thermal strategy is working. If you do not moderate your speed/power, the bike’s system will reduce your speed/power until your Zero can maintain its maximum allowable thermal state; but no harm whatsoever will result from this, since this is exactly how the strategy is meant to function.
• Stage 1, is presented by flashing this indicator and advises you that the bike is about to enter its thermal strategy. To avoid encountering an enforced power"
http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/owners-manuals/2016/2016-Zero-Owners-Manual-S-SR-DS-DSR.pdf
My question still remains.
Do I trust Zero to protect the health of my machine & continue to enjoy flogging it or do I back down on the throttle & limit the thermal level myself?
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You paid for it. Do what you want.
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.……...........
back on topic though... the monitoring system for the motor is simple, never let it go over a set amount, and then the magnet can never excced that amount. basic physics explains why that works.
Well that didn't help me much.
Do I put my faith in the bike/Zero or do I take an active roll in this process?
And what would that "set amount" be?
The set amount is the set by zero. Yes you can trust it.
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Do I put my faith in the bike/Zero or do I take an active roll in this process?
Try to ride the bike within it's limits so the protection circuitry doesn't kick in unless you're in an emergency situation. It's up to you what constitutes an emergency.
What are it's limits?
I know that the hi temp warning kicks in at 210-212°f but that's all I know.
I'm unsure at what temperature power is automatically reduced and my question is, should I trust Zero to manage this for me?
Well, I personally try to adapt my riding to where I don't get overheat indicators very often.
It also helps with my speeding ticket reduction goal : - ) .
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It's not speed as much as hard acceleration followed by full regen braking up a steep and twisty road.
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And as far as battery heat is concerned, after rapid charging.
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And as far as battery heat is concerned, after rapid charging.
Not sure what your getting at???
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It's was a side comment, not a direct one. Ride fast, you heat motor and controller and battery. Charge fast, you heat battery. If you do both, battery heat becomes the bigger issue.
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Yikes someone's DSR caught fire in the Netherlands: http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/list_message/28584468#28584468
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Another hoover board blew up the other day in a mall while charging and made it on national TV last night. :o On the other hand, I haven't seen a similar video of a Zero on fire for over 10 years now. ;)
Unfortunately, it already happened to Zero: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6099.0
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Yikes someone's DSR caught fire in the Netherlands: http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/list_message/28584468#28584468
Well that is not good. Hopefully it wasn't caused by a defect in the batteries.
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I'm sure it wasn't from charging. Contactor disconnects
and charging stops past 50C/122F IIRC