ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jdub1970 on December 26, 2016, 12:23:48 AM
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Hi
My son has a Kuberg Cross. Great little bike, tons of torque and great fun. Only thing that could make it better would be better batteries.
Lithium batteries would be much better.
Has any ever done a lithium conversation or know of one being done?
Cheers
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It uses a 36v battery just like the razor mx500.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5353.0
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Hi
Thank you for that. Yes I know but I wondered if there was a lithium battery upgrade in the market for it or had anyone ever one it.
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Just read that post. Thank you for that good post
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Just read that post. Thank you for that good post
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Hi,
I found this post by googling "kuberg cross battery". I've recently purchased 2 2015 Kuberg bikes, the Cross and Trial E and both are due for a battery replacement (individual SLA batteries range from 11.6v to 12.7v fully charged w/stock charger).
The Luna Cycles battery pack referenced in the Razor MX500 post doesn't appear to be available and I'm curious what others have done since this thread was last updated.
Thanks,
Joel
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Following as well.
I am about to just purchase a prebuilt 36V LiPo with BMS off of ebay, but like the idea of supporting Luna. especially since it would not be a case of reinventing the wheel.
If I get some time tomorrow, perhaps I can try to call them...But then I might be tempted into looking at the SurRon.
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Keeping this alive in hopes that someone has found a compatible pack and is willing to share the details, or a battery expert is willing to give advice.
I'm not a battery expert, but here's what I've gathered so far:
- Stock batteries: 3x 12v SLA (NT12-12)
- Motor: 750w
- POWER: 3000 watts, 36 V
- CONTROLLER: PWM, 40 amp
- Rule: Battery should be rated for more current/amps than controller - motor and controller will draw what they need
- Peak power(3000W) = Voltage(36V) X Max Current(83A)
So, does this mean we need a BMS with a continuous discharge > 40A and max discharge > 83A? If so, this seems to rule out most of the 36V packs that are readily available.
Any help much appreciated.
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A few I’ve found that might work:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303208792815 ($254- almost 6” wide, vs 4” Kuberg tray)
https://www.pingbattery.com/ (Traded emails, said he could build one that fits perfectly But didnt give a price - similar packs on website run around $450)
https://www.boost-bikes.co.uk/pages/oset-battery-kits (Traded emails, said they have a design ready for kuberg for $513). Found them per this article: https://www.juniormoto.com/2019/01/23/switch-to-lithium-battery/?lang=en
Kuberg OEM:
https://store.kuberg.com/part/battery-trial-and-cross-li-on-36v/UN-0235. (767 Euro)
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Well, I had forgotten about this posting...and what do you know? I went and purchased a SurRon Black.
But I did order a LiPo battery for the Kuberg Cross. This is what I purchased.
"https://www.ebay.com/itm/293314294162"
Now, I know even less, but apparently enough to get into some trouble, but the good news is that nothing dangerous. This battery will shut down if you pull too much current, and it has done so multiple times. (It also does so when voltage is too low...which is a good thing).
In order to reset the BMS, I need to disconnect the battery leads (I am using XT60 connectors, lengthened just enough to be able to reach from the back without removing bodywork). Then we are back on the road.
The SLA batteries that came with the bike were "supposed" to be fairly new, but we would be lucky to get 5 miles out of them. So the LiPo's are great in that have seen 15 miles on the bike...but the power has to be reduced in order to avoid tripping the BMS.
The Cross also has other issues, such as no LED indicators on the throttle...but replacing the throttle requires replacing the entire wiring harness and controller as the bike is a 2015 and has early release parts on it, and I have not had much luck contacting Kuberg over the phone, but did get an estimate of $400 for the parts I assume that I need. It would be much easier to simply add a voltage indicator on the bike, but again, I am not sure what to look for.
My daughter is 9, so the bike is close to getting too small for her, but I LOVE the bike as it is so quiet. She loves it as well...we also have a CRF50 and she prefers that Kuberg every time...It is lighter, and no shifting...quiet, not kick starting, etc. At $700 I feel like I got a great deal, although I COULD nitpik the bike quite a bit as well. -Basically spares pricing is insane, and new bike pricing not much better.
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acacia1731 -you are a wealth of knowledge. you found articles that I never found, and it was not because I wasn't looking either. But you did find the Kuberg site and now you know why I went my own route. That is almost a grand for a 12AH battery!
The article in juniormoto.com also did not mention what the battery rating was, only stating 5x the battery life? And what i found interesting is that they also has the bike's power turned down as well. But they appeared to be half the price of Kuberg!
I still cannot get over Kuberg pricing. The bikes, as new, are expensive for what they are, and spares seem equally pricey. Hence, why I am really taking a liking to the SurRon. PLUS the SurRon has off the shelf parts for chains, suspension, etc. Plus no bodywork...
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@MDW195 - The battery pack you ordered has some concerning and inconsistent specs:
Regarding the cell configuration, in some place it indicates 10s7p, in others it's 10s8p.
The weight at 8.4lb suggests it's 10s8P.
The dimensions seem like they won't fit into the Kuberg's frame. I found a 10s6p will fit but only with the cells staggered. Using pre-built cell holders, my 10s6p was too wide.
The peak discharge current is 30A and the *Continuous Charge/Discharge* is higher at 50A. I'm guessing they got these two mixed up.
If true, 30A seems too low for a bike with a 40A controller.
The pack I intend to build has these specs:
PANASONIC/SANYO NCR18650GA
Cell Specs:
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mAh: 3500
Discharge: 10A
Charge (normal): 1.675
Charge (fast) ??
Cell weight: 48.0
Pack Specs
====================
Configuration: 10s6p
Pack Capacity (Ah): 21.0
Pack discharge (A): 60
Pack charge (normal): ??
Pack charge (fast): ??
Pack charge (not clear if fast or slow): 10.05 ??
Pack weight (g) 2880
Pack weight (lb) 6.34
cell cost (ea) $4.60 (but I found nearly new salvaged cells for $3.10ea)
cell cost (pack) $276.00
BMS: https://www.ebay.com/itm/10S-36V-15A-60A-Li-ion-Lipo-Lithium-Battery-Protection-Board-BMS-Balance-ebike/322539980221
(waterproof 60A version)
Charger: https://lunacycle.com/luna-charger-36v-advanced-210w-ebike-charger/
I was planning to build the pack with a friend that has a spot welder but got too busy and now the COVID-19 issue is discouraging us from meeting up to do so. I might just borrow his welder and see if I can built it myself. The old, tired lead-acid cells are becoming a real pain and limit our riding a lot.
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A few I’ve found that might work:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303208792815 ($254- almost 6” wide, vs 4” Kuberg tray)
https://www.pingbattery.com/ (Traded emails, said he could build one that fits perfectly But didnt give a price - similar packs on website run around $450)
https://www.boost-bikes.co.uk/pages/oset-battery-kits (Traded emails, said they have a design ready for kuberg for $513). Found them per this article: https://www.juniormoto.com/2019/01/23/switch-to-lithium-battery/?lang=en
Notice the weight of the pack in the first link (26lbs). The 3 SLAs in the Kuberg weigh about 28.8lbs. A 10s6p 20Ah lithium ion battery with BMS weighs about 7lbs. My son's Kuberg Cross E has a 10s4p 13.6Ah that weighs under 5lbs which totally transforms how the bike feels to ride and handle.
If hadn't already purchased everything for my daughter's bike, the $513 pack at Boost Bikes seems like a really good deal (I've logged WAY too much time researching by DIY solution but have enjoyed the learning process.)
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I stumbled across this bike when searching for batteries, and it spurred a couple questions:
MotoTec 36v Pro Kids Electric Dirt Bike 1000w Lithium
https://www.walmart.com/ip/MotoTec-36v-Pro-Kids-Electric-Dirt-Bike-1000w-Lithium-Green/184498868
Q1 - Would the 10Ah lithium battery for this Mototec bike work with a Kuberg Cross? If it's 36V, and has a 1000W motor and up to 35A controller, then it seems like it would provide all the power that the Kuberg needs? That said, I can't find a battery for this 2020 model yet, but if the whole bike is $700, the battery must be pretty cheap. It would reduce significant weight from a Kuberg, and maybe could buy multiples.
Q2 - Is this bike as good as the Kuberg Cross, at 1/3 the price? It's Chinese, vs Czech, but I don't see many things to criticize that I couldn't also say about the Kuberg.
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The Mototec's best feature is its looks. My friend and fellow Sur Ron owner bought one for his daughter. It has no front suspension, just lookalike suspension forks. Its battery is indeed lithium but doesn't have enough capacity to be practical. On a ride with 1 Kuberg Cross on old, tired SLAs, 1 Kuberg Trial E on a 13.6Ah eBay lithium ion pack and 1 Mototec, the Mototec died first. My friend hauled the little Mototec out of the woods ON his Sur Ron. Not recommended but he pulled it off!
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I have that exact bike, although under a different brand. It's a good quality little bike and performs well with me on it at around 150 pounds (max recommended by that seller). I managed to get 17mph out of it on flat ground, it'll climb fairly well with a decent charge, and the run time isn't too bad. It does have actual suspension up front too, rear is a little soft and the preload adjustment is hard to reach so I haven't bothered with it. Adjustable speed and power is nice if you want to let a child ride it (throttle response is also adjustable but pointless slowing it down). It'll even wheelie with a bit of practice and a good tug.
I do want to add a second battery to it to extend the run time, there's plenty of space inside (might even be able to fit a third) and the seller I got it from sells spares at a not unreasonable £200. Unfortunately they're not selling at the moment due to the virus.
https://www.xtreme-toys.co.uk/spare-parts/spares-type/chargers-batteries/batteries/xtreme-electric-xtm-mx-pro-36v-1100w-lithium-replacement-battery.html
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Good to know they also make a better version of this. I wouldn't have even suspected a solid front fork until my friend explained.
This is a promising idea. I'd like to see more specs on the battery. The 13.6Ah battery I added onto one of our Kubergs was only $150 shipped w/tax.
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Had a quick look and found this sticker on the top of the battery, haven't done any searching yet but it may be of use in finding a cheaper alternative. Also a photo of the battery compartment, didn't do any measuring to see if a second battery would fit flat on top of the original one but there's certainly enough room to put it in there at an angle.
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I did a bit of research and it appears these are a bit different bikes. The Moto Tec 500 and 1000 w/lithium battery appear to have a battery like this that slides in/out the rear of the bike: https://davesbigtoysusa.com/mototec-dirt-bike-36v-lithium-battery-pack/
As shown on this site, the capacity is 8Ah (500w) or 10Ah (1000w) https://www.urbanscooters.com/products/mototec-36v-pro-electric-dirt-bike-1000w-lithium
Current draw is adjustable from 10A to 35A on the 1000w version. A Kuberg needs a higher current battery (seems like 40A minimum).
I think a decent eBay lithium ion pack would be easier to find with the right specs and I've been very happy so far w/the one conversion I've done.
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I don't see how that type of battery pack would slide out of the bike, I think it would be too long to even fit inside it. I can even see the rubber hold down straps in one of the photos on the Walmart site.
I'm wondering if that battery is for some older model, the one you have experience with that had fake suspension up front. Possibly similar to this 24v Mototec that I found on Alibaba, the stanchions on the fork look suspiciously long.
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This battery looks promising: https://www.ebay.com/itm/laudation-36V-20ah-1000W-E-bicycle-battery-10S6P-Built-in-Panasonic-NCR-18650BD/254369765764
Panasonic cells, 20Ah capacity, 40A rated discharge, 60A peak. A key aspect to fit into the Kuberg frame in the lower battery position is the length and at 190mm, this is cutting it close (I'll confirm this later). I first built a pack using plastic cell holders that space the cells a bit apart and a 10s6p pack _did_not_fit_. When I revised the design to stagger the cells without cell holders (the old skool hot glue pack method) it *did* fit.
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I was able to fit 200*140*70mm in the bike, but I have it standing up, so I should think that the 190*120*70 should work...if you are willing to have it situated vertically.
I did add a plastic box for it to sit in that I lined with some thin foam. I will try to get a picture one of these days.
I really like the look of that MotoTec 1000W bike, looks like an easy bike to work on and even upgrade...like replacing the battery with something better...
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Hello everyone, I have a cross hero kuberg, I'm also looking to switch to the lithium battery. the one I have installed goes into safety as soon as you force the engine.
I found this one may be that it will be more suitable.
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32896713412.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.13ce3c00g65SZ9&mp=1
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Wow! Nice find on a Kuberg-specific pack!! In my opinion, that pack is overkill and too expensive compared to this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/laudation-36V-20ah-1000W-E-bicycle-battery-10S6P-Built-in-Panasonic-NCR-18650BD/254369765764
A 10s6p 20Ah pack weighs under 7lb. My son's 13.6Ah pack is under 5lbs and has *never* left us stranded; my son runs out of energy way before his bike does (so far). This pack is over 12 lbs, cost nearly 2x more and has cells of unknown brand.
That said, I'd *love* to hear from someone who owns that T-shaped pack to see how it performs.
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I was able to fit 200*140*70mm in the bike, but I have it standing up, so I should think that the 190*120*70 should work...if you are willing to have it situated vertically.
I did add a plastic box for it to sit in that I lined with some thin foam. I will try to get a picture one of these days.
I really like the look of that MotoTec 1000W bike, looks like an easy bike to work on and even upgrade...like replacing the battery with something better...
I'd really like to see the pictures of your battery pack. I'm obsessed (perhaps irrationally) with putting the new battery in the lowest possible position so I haven't considered any solution that uses the larger upper section.
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Forgive the unprofessional look, but the bike has sustained rollovers and the battery has not budged. The tray that I used had to be hacked in order to serve my purpose, but it holds it securely with no movement.
With that being said, the find above with the Kuberg specific fitment and huge capacity looks to be the ticket for this bike.
In case I did not mention, I am using the cycle satiator for charging duties, and the bike is typically charged back up in around an hour.
Question: Anyone have a recommendation for a voltage indicator that would be small and easy to install on this 36V bike? (max 42V)
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Another view
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Awesome, thank you for sharing! That's a BIG battery! :-) I'm curious, what is the cluster of wires on top of the battery? I can't see enough to make it out but there's a lot going on there that I don't have on ours (2015 Cross and 2015 Trial E).
Nice choice on the Cycle Satiator for a charger. I went with Luna's Advanced 36v charger primarily because it was 1/3 the price. I like that Grin's Cycle Satiator is multi-purpose.
For a voltage meter, I have a NON-recommendation: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ST8MQVL
The above meter consistently read 2v low when I tried using it during a battery capacity test. I've had decent luck with similar gauges so maybe I just got a dud or maybe had it wired up incorrectly (I'll double-check).
Regarding my pack build, I learned that my friend w/the spot welder thinks he might have been exposed to COVID-19 so the thought of trying to build a battery wearing masks and gloves feels...yikes, not comfortable! :-[
In better news, it appears the circuit board for the emergency charger will arrive today so I'll probably focus on testing that out soon.
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@MDW195 I'm curious if you had to modify the OEM battery mounting rails to get your battery to fit as you have shown? Today I tried an experiment to fit my 10s6p pack vertically like yours and the space between the rails isn't wide enough--it's almost exactly the same size as the cells before welding, spacers, shrink wrap, etc.
Since my battery cells are currently hot-glued together (sort of, they're falling apart somewhat, maybe didn't use the right kind of glue sticks), to simplify alternative pack designs, dimensions, etc., I made a prototype pack using the spacers for a 10s6p pack but only added 5 cells and some masking tape to give it the right shape. With this, I was able to quickly see that mounting the battery in the rear upper location has a few advantages:
1. The battery is right in the middle of the wheelbase (about 21" from each axle to the battery)
2. Access to this location is really, really easy. Maybe even enough to allow for a hot-swap pack some day.
3. Out of the choices of low & forward, high & forward, and high & rearward, the high & rearward position could give a slight advantage in rear traction which might help on occasions when the bike gets a little stuck pulling a hill, etc.
So, while I ponder my spot welder solution a bit more, I'm going to unglue the cells I have and go back to using the plastic spacers.
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Yesterday I reassembled the pack using cell spacers. I like these way more than the hot glue. That said, they're a bit of a pain to work with and they do break very easily so always buy extra (maybe 30% more than you need to play it safe).
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Here's a pic of the pack with its BMS, 60 amp, waterproof, 3-wire (separate charge and discharge ports). I'm in line to get a kWeld battery spot welder next week when they get more in stock in the US. https://www.keenlab.de/index.php/portfolio-item/kweld/ (https://www.keenlab.de/index.php/portfolio-item/kweld/)
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impressive start...
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My bad. I though that I answered some of JoelR's questions...maybe I failed to hit submit?
Anyway, the cluster of wires is the wiring loom as it came on the bike when I got it. The controller has no mount, so I have it secured to the velcro used to tied down the battery.
I did add some XT60 connectors, as well as spliced in a jack connector for the satiator, onto the same mount that came with the bike.
I did not have to do anything to the trays on the bike. It all fit fine.
I will try to take some better pictures and post them to clear things up a bit regarding the mess of wires, and maybe I will get motivated for some spring cleaning...but I am still considering many ideas...for instance, I would like to lose the Kuberg throttle, but need to do some homework to see if a Domino or other electric throttle will work...
I am worried that the controller could go bad sometime in the future, and like I said before, just to replace the throttle in order to get the indicators to work will cost about $500 as I will need a new wiring harness, throttle and controller. So far, piecemealing the battery has been the best mod yet. Then I drilled new mounting holes for the lower shock to level out the bike, and that has helped as well.
I hate the chain on the bike, it is so small, and already shows signs of age. But I do not typically replace chains without also changing out sprockets, and the rear sprocket looks integrated into the rear wheel (though I have not pulled it to confirm)...
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Thanks @MDW195 for the reply
I don't know all the benefits but I did have a good conversation with Marllon @ Kuberg Florida https://kubergflorida.com/ about upgrading the controller and all wiring to the latest version. In my recollection, it wasn't that expensive (less than $300 I thought). He's a great resource and handles most US tech inquiries. It's possible the Kuberg throttle isn't specially made, looks like an e-Bike part to me.
I'm really surprised that your pack fits right between the rails. Mine are too close to fit an 18650 battery sideways so a whole pack would require the rails to be cut/ground to make room.
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Here's a USA-based distributor for the Mototec 10Ah Lithium Battery (and a few other parts) that may fit the Kuberg.
https://bigtoysusa.com/mototec36vprodirtbikeparts.aspx
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I got the 20.7 Ah capacity, 60A continuous discharge battery done and my daughter is riding it as I type this! So far, so good. It works, isn't getting hot, has tons of power and really improves how the bike rides compared to the tired lead acid batteries it replaced. Pics later.
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Couple more options < $300 on ebay, which have plenty of current (50A / 100A max) and include a 5A charger:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-20Ah-Li-ion-Lithium-Battery-Pack-For-Electric-Bike-With-5A-Charger-50A-BMS/163711527429?hash=item261df7aa05:g:Mt4AAOSwNQNc5jmV
Would fit vertically, spanning top and bottom compartments after removing a small amount of material from the battery support channels.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-20Ah-LiFePO4-Lithium-Rechargable-Battery-For-500W-Ebike-Scooter-5A-Charger/162323380088?hash=item25cb3a3778:g:xmYAAOSww8ldPqfC
Would fit in top compartment, coming very close to the controller.
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-20Ah-Li-ion-Lithium-Battery-Pack-For-Electric-Bike-With-5A-Charger-50A-BMS/163711527429?hash=item261df7aa05:g:Mt4AAOSwNQNc5jmV
Would fit vertically, spanning top and bottom compartments after removing a small amount of material from the battery support channels.
This is definitely interesting. It appears to be based on pouch-type cells vs. 18650 cells. I know very little about these. The weight is surprisingly heavy at 13.2lbs (my custom 20Ah 18650-based battery is around 6lbs (I''ll measure it exactly one of these days). Still, 13.2 lbs for 20Ah is less than half the stock SLA weight and ride time is probably triple.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-20Ah-LiFePO4-Lithium-Rechargable-Battery-For-500W-Ebike-Scooter-5A-Charger/162323380088?hash=item25cb3a3778:g:xmYAAOSww8ldPqfC
Would fit in top compartment, coming very close to the controller.
This one I'm less excited about but still intrigued. At 17.2lbs, it's pretty heavy for a lithium battery but being LiFePO4, my understanding is it will last a long time and has a safer chemistry than LiPo. I converted 2 of our Razor Ground Force Drifter karts to use 24v LiFePO4 batteries I bought used on eBay and they've been absolutely great. The run time is plenty long to overheat the motor so I have to remind the kids to give their karts a break. :-)
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Finally received and installed this 30.6Ah battery:
https://booant.com/products/booant-36v-electric-bike-battery-10s-30ah-1500w-lg-lithium-ion-battery-pack-18650-with-5a-charger-1?fbclid=IwAR0DLdMHkNfI8CoPVlinTAc7-HwcevgyXjz-kjDdpOmE5M9D4Z3MydKpn9Q
I put the battery into this bag, for waterproofing, fire mitigation, and some padding protection.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083S75JGY/
The width was line-to-line with the frame rails, so I had to remove 1/16 inch from each rail. I also used a 1 inch block to hold the battery above the lower compartment brackets and some closed-cell foam to protect the lower front corner. I used the stock velcro straps to secure everything in place.
It came with an XC90 connector for the power output. For now, I'm using another small adapter to convert the spade connectors on the controller to the XC90 connector on the battery.
It came with an XC60 connector for the charger input, and I was able to use the same body panel opening to hook up the charge cable.
Everything seemed to work well on a first ride around the yard. It pulled me (170lbs) up a decent slope with full throttle on level 3 with no problems.
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Very nice. Thanks for updating.
That looks like the Kuberg Start...judging by the front wheel looks smallish.
But you got the right battery in there. You should see serious range with that setup, plus you wont have the issues with the BMS shutting down like me.
Way to go.
-MW
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Hi,
This is a very nice setup with the LG batteries! I've 2 kids one, with a Hero Cross and the other with a Hero Trial. So I'm interested in this setup so they kan drive longer on the circuit. Have you connected the battery to the Kuberg controller or only to the engine? So you don't charge the battery through the controller I think?
I'm looking forward in this topic its very interesting.
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That looks like the Kuberg Start...judging by the front wheel looks smallish.
2016 Cross with Hero controller and rear shock (installed by previous owner). The older models came with some really odd custom tires, which are almost square (flat across the knobs).
Have you connected the battery to the Kuberg controller or only to the engine? So you don't charge the battery through the controller I think?
The Li-ion battery has two cables - charging and discharge. Discharge cable is plugged into the controller. Charging cable is left hanging under the shrouds, and I plug the Li-ion charger directly into it.
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Thnx I ordered two 20Ah 1500w Batteries with Samsung 30Q Cell. Hopefully My Sons like it and get an extended Range compare to the 12ah lead acid batteries.
What’s your experience? No safety loop from the electric engine because of the amps?
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Update on the Booant battery install… This little bike did 20 miles of trails on a single charge last weekend, keeping up just fine with kids on 70 and 110cc gas bikes. The throttle battery meter still wasn't down to the last bar when we stopped, so it could have gone farther for sure. Towards the end my son (80lbs) did say that it was getting weaker on long uphills (100+ meters long), but I’m not sure if that was due to heat build up or battery voltage dropping. Overall very happy so far.
https://booant.com/collections/36v-battery/products/booant-36v-electric-bike-battery-10s-30ah-1500w-lg-lithium-ion-battery-pack-18650-with-5a-charger?variant=30262153871423
Update - i think the original link is dead, but this is equivalent: This one I believe: https://booant.com/collections/36v-battery/products/booant-36v-electric-bike-battery-10s-30ah-1500w-lg-lithium-ion-battery-pack-18650-with-5a-charger?variant=30262153871423
Update - they keep killing the links. Will add my order detail below, in case anyone wants to search for a current equivalent.
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Order details per above