ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: tico on December 06, 2016, 04:24:44 AM
-
So yesterday afternoon I go to ride my bike, I turn on my 2014 model S, and I noticed that as
soon as I turned it on, the motor started occasionally making a noise as if
I was barely touching the throttle, even though I wasn't and it was on the kickstand.
I tried riding a little bit down the
block to try to determine what exactly was happening, and the bike would
jerk forwards and then decelerate a bit, and sometimes i would hear the
solenoid click off and then back on.
I didn't see any blink codes on the dash except that sometimes I would get
a single blink in-between the solenoid clicking off and then back on.
Turning the bike off and on made no difference. Eventually it wouldn't run
at all and I walked it back.
The battery showed 80% charge the whole time. When I returned home, I
plugged it in to charge, (with the key off) but I noticed that the whole
screen started flashing off and on, so I disconnected the charging cable
and have left it parked.
The previous day I rode it around with no apparent problems, surface streets and
freeway.
I've attached the logs, and sent off an email to Zero already but haven't heard back from them.
I tried decoding the logs with the zero_parser.py script, but I just got
"Zero MBB log
Serial number 2014_mbb_0386e1_00122
VIN 538SM5Z28ECA03405
Firmware rev. 48
Board rev. 1
Model SS
Printing 4507 of 4507 log entries..
Entry Time of Log Event Conditions
+--------+----------------------+--------------------------+----------------------------------
"
but no actual log entries.
Maybe the file is corrupt? the Zero app on my android didn't display any errors.
Anyone have any ideas what could be the matter with it?
It sucks that my bike's dead now for the second time in the handful of months since I got it. :(
-tico
-
Hi Tico,
Sounds identical to the problem I had with my 2014 Zero S.
Same symptoms: Jerky acceleration, contactor kicking in and out when trying to accelerate and also when charging, the running sounds would turn on and off when stationary.
I had the motor and controller replaced under warranty and that corrected the issue.
I did turn out an issue with the Sevcon controller but the motor assembly needed to be changed for that.
Good luck and Zero are generally excellent for support (new company).
-
Hi Fred,
yep, that sounds exactly like my symptoms ... except that today it decided to start behaving normally again, and I drove it several miles without problems.
I spoke with Zero over the phone briefly but they said that now they won't talk to me directly instead of going through a dealer ... who I'll call tomorrow, but since it's currently working I don't know if the dealer will be able to confirm the problem and replace whatever is unreliable without the bike "staying dead" :(
We'll see.
-tico
-
Sounds like the rotary encoder in the motor is acting up perhaps?
-
Perhaps, and that could certainly seem to explain it lurching forwards and backwards, but I thought that the encoder (and the motor as a whole) would be disconnected when the kill switch is in the off position?
-
Yes I would guess perhaps water got past the rubber O-ring seal and into the encoder housing and there is the beginning of corrosion perhaps on the encoder chip. Each year the waterproofing and sealing of the encoder has gotten better and better, in 2015, 2016 and again in 2017 its pretty much bullet proof now. I would suggest you take it into the dealer and have them look at it. How long ago did you get the bike? Is it under warranty?
Another option is if it is under warranty, and working (for now) is to trade it in on a 2017 model and tell them before they sell it to inspect the motor encoder and perhaps replace it before selling it to another customer. I agree depending on the dealer this could take some time. This way you wouldn't have to wait.
If you live close to the LA area and can get to Hollywood Electrics I'd bet they could have you fixed in a week or so, although I always recommend to those who rely on their Zero every day to try to upgrade to a 2015+ Zero as soon as it is financially possible to do so for about 50 reasons, with the one you listed being one of them. With the exception of the onboard charger (which is also on the 2014), reliability exponentially went up on 2015+ models on everything with in 2017 the belt strength increasing, and current sensing for SOC % reporting to become pretty much dead on with the addition of both a high and low precision current sensor for both drive traction power ranges, and low power ranges such as when charging.
-
Hi Terry -- thanks for your comments about upgrading to a > 2015 model. I just got this bike back in May of this year "new" (even though it's a 2014) by trading in my 2012 Zero under their buyback program. So this one is thankfully still under warranty.
The bike died on me again, and so I just yesterday managed to get it picked up by the dealer here in Texas. We'll see how it goes.
In your experience, when the parts that have failed due to water (encoder housing, etc) get replaced, is the part upgraded to the latest model year (or is it even compatible?) or do they end up with the same type of weatherproofing that they started out with?
While I would love to have the latest and greatest, I'm currently back to school, so I can't afford another upgrade currently, especially having just spent $7K to upgrade my previous problematic 2012 Zero to this one only a handful of months ago, but who knows, maybe I'll win the lottery :)
Thanks everyone
-tico
-
Hey Tico,
I understand your situation and realize it may not make sense to upgrade right now. Good news is the motor will likely have some better sealing as I don't believe the dealers, with the exception of Hollywood Electrics, are doing encoder chip replacements, but I could be wrong. So it will likely just have another motor sent in a box and it gets replaced and commissioned to your controller.
Good luck!
-
Hi Terry -- thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I was worried that if they replaced it with the same kind of seals that I'd be having to deal with these problems again, especially once the warranty expires.
Fingers crossed
-
Well I don't know for sure, this is just an educated guess, but lets hope so.
-
I got a call back from the dealer --
apparently when they got the bike last thursday night (the 8th) they confirmed the problem that I'd had, but then yesterday/today (the 14th) when they turned the bike on it started behaving normally again, so they can't do anymore troubleshooting until they hear back from Zero and/or look through the logs that I had emailed to Zero via the android app.
I mentioned to the tech the suspicions about the problem being related to the motor encoder, but he said that since they don't have a normal service manual they have to hook it up to a computer and depend on the Zero factory to get back to them for any troubleshooting.
I'm suspecting that I may be without a bike for a while ... :(
-
I just spoke with the dealer again -- looks like the bike is still behaving okay for them, and they haven't heard back yet from Zero regarding the logs that I sent in a week ago, so they're going to try to spray the bike down with a hose to see if they can get the motor to act up again.
This is really disappointing. Gonna try calling the Zero factory again, and beg to see if someone will do something to get this bike working again.
If you look through my post history, you'll see that I bought this bike brand new on May 21 of this year. Then the BMS board died a month later and it took them 27 days to get that repaired (June 22 - July 21). Now it's been 12 days since it died again on December 4th.
Currently out of the 209 days that I've owned this bike, on 39 of them the bike has been unusable (19%). This situation with dealers and the factory service manuals is ridiculous if it results in a bike that's undrivable 1 out of 5 days with no recourse.
-
... the bike is still at the shop, and the guys at the Zero dealer are still unable to troubleshoot the problem.
I got an email back from Aaron at the Zero factory, asking for me to confirm which dealer I had the bike in, but no further details about what they're going to do.
I'm sending off another email, hoping somebody is able to get this bike working again.
non-working bike 44 out of 214 days. 20.2%
-
I worked with Aaron too over email earlier this year when my '15 SR needed warranty service. He was very helpful. Still, it took 30 days, even though they figured what was wrong fairly quickly. The wait was for parts and Zero support to the dealer (phone tag).
-
Yeah, Aaron over at Zero has always been great to me -- he's always responded quickly and has been really helpful. I have no complaints about him. For that matter, all of the other engineers at Zero I've ever spoken with have been great too.
My whining complaint is about how the Zero company handles repairs (that is, because Zero does not release a factory service manual, dealers / mechanics must play phone tag with engineers at the Zero factory to diagnose/repair every problem with a Zero motorcycle it seems).
Since the electronics on Zero bikes seem to break more than any other component, the fact that dealer mechanics have general mechanic knowledge about the few things shared with conventional motorcycles (brakes/suspension/etc) and can fix those problems quickly without depending on the Zero factory doesn't seem to help customers have a good experience taking their bike to the dealer because those problems are so much less common than fried boards of some sort.
I just wish that this whole process back and forth with the dealer didn't take so long (and that I didn't expect that I'd probably see another month without my bike as a "normal" occurrence).
... and of course, even if the warranty covers the labor and parts, I'm still stuck with the cost of having the bike towed to the dealer every time it dies, which makes me a less than excited about the future of the Zero bike's unreliability.
-
.. Called into the dealer again, and they're still unable to troubleshoot the problem. Zero apparently asked them to re-time the motor, and now the software that the factory sends out to the dealers is unable to reconnect to my bike.
I was hoping for a christmas miracle, but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen. It's now 18 days since I first sent in logs when this problem started, and there's no diagnosis yet, so who knows when they can begin repairing it.
I went ahead and called Zero and spoke with Lydia, who promised that someone would call the dealer to help them with this, and then call me back with updates.
We'll see what turns up.
-
Well, yesterday evening I heard back from Nicholas over at Zero, who said he'd spoken with their techs and the guys at the dealership, and after running a bunch of tests, the problem came down to a loose connector under the seat that seems like it was the cause of the canbus communication errors.
The dealer left me a voicemail as they were closing last night so when I called back I couldn't speak to either of their mechanics about it, but just now when I called them again they said that my bike is ready to go again.
The dealer said that they were waiting for callbacks from Zero, and Zero was saying they were waiting on callbacks from the dealer, so I'm not sure who dropped the ball. However, it looks like despite my griping that Zero pulled through and was able to get this bike working again! :)
Lessons learned: take copious notes of every little problem with dates and times, and communicate with both the dealer *and* the factory as soon as a problem occurs *and* at every step along the way so no one drops the ball.
Problem started December 4th, getting a working bike back today, December 23rd.
-
That's good news! Good to know that eventually, it turned out to be a small problem from a technical point of view.
-
Yeah! I'm definitely glad to get my bike back :) -- I've already been riding all around running errands today before the holidays.
I haven't looked at the connector that caused the problem, but I'm hoping it's a latching type, so this problem doesn't come back from the daily vibrations of driving.
-
If you can . . . please find out a bit more regarding the problem and what they did to remedy it - maybe even an image of the problem child.
Many Thanks
-
I will tell you what I know--
I already have the bike back in my posession (and reassembled of course, so no chance to ask them to take a photo of anything while it was in non-working condition).
They said that the problem was a canbus communication problem, and one of the connectors in the path to the MBB under the seat had the weather proofing seal on it *not* remain attached to the connector when they separated the connector to run a test, and that therefore they concluded that it must have not been sealed well previously and some moisture/vibration caused the intermittent faulty connection of one or more pins.
The repair order / receipt that I got from the dealer just lists 1.25hours of labor and a description of my original problem (basically what I said at the beginning of my first forum post on this thread) and no other details.
Sorry that I couldn't be any more helpful. When I speak with Zero after the holidays, if I hear any other details I'll let you know.
Cheers!
-
I hope they got it but the "May Not" have been sealed is bothering me, it doesn't sound conclusive but for your sake I hope I'm wrong. Anyhow ride safe!
-
Yep, I agree that it's not a very satisfying conclusion since they couldn't reproduce the problem when trying to troubleshoot it (besides just observing the problem the first couple of days it was in their shop), so it's pretty hard to be *sure* that this connector was the cause of the problem and not just a *possible* cause of the problem.
Regardless, it's been nice to be riding around again, so I'll enjoy it while it lasts.
-
Just be careful in a steep lean or starting out with a bank - if that thing quits, it will take you by surprise.
Ride it like its gonna quit! LOL
Mike