ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Electric Terry on November 08, 2016, 12:12:24 PM
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http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/)
More Torque and Horsepower!! 116 lb/ft and 70 hp!
5 year unlimited mileage battery warranty!
Stronger belt!
200+ miles city range and 100+ miles highway at 70 mph with powertank!
Steadily getting better and better each year!
I'm very excited for more power and torque in 2017 from the 775 amp controller vs the 660 amp from 2014-2016!!!
The FX and FXS get a 550 amp controller vs the 420 amp controller for more torque and horsepower too! Wow this will be perhaps too much fun lol.
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That bump from 106 ft-lb to 116 ft-lb is a significant improvement. They changed the gearing to 20/90 from 30/130 and they aren't listing the 0-60 times but the top speed didn't change. To keep the top speed the same with the new gearing the motor needs to hit 6300 RPM. If they left the gearing at 30/130 then top speed would be 108 mph at 6300 RPM. My bet is the 2017 Zero SR beats a 2016 Zero SR in a drag. Likewise all the way down the line....2017 Zero S beats a 2016 Zero S, etc.
The new controllers are definitely the highlight of the changes for 2017!
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I think wheelie lovers are going to be happy with the 2017 FXS!! 8)
(http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/gallery-2017/zero-fxs/location/large/2017_zero-fxs_outdoors-09_777x555_gallery.jpg)
(http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/gallery-2017/zero-fxs/location/large/2017_zero-fxs_outdoors-03_777x555_gallery.jpg)
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Ouch!
In the Netherlands you pay the same price for a 2017 6.5 S as for the 2016 S with ZF 9.8!
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Ouch!
In the Netherlands you pay the same price for a 2017 6.5 S as for the 2016 S with ZF 9.8!
in the US too, but it has the more powerful controller 550 amps vs the 420 amps of the 2016, plus the 2016 9.8 didn't have the IPM motor, the 2017 6.5 does! and comes with 2 locking storage compartments too!
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2016 Zero SR 660 amp Controller 106 ft-lb torque 30/130 gear ratio = 459 ft-lb torque at the rear wheel
2017 Zero SR 775 amp Controller 116 ft-lb torque 20/90 gear ratio = 522 ft-lb torque at the rear wheel!!!
Soooo....when do we get traction control?? Maybe via firmware update through the Zero app ;) I wish
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"Completely air-cooled, the motor provides a fantastic riding experience, minus the need for any regular maintenance."
Does this mean the "Drive Motor commissioning and timing every 8,000 miles or 12 months" is no longer needed?
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Nice to see these kinds of improvements year to year! It's pretty amazing when you think about it!
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Was that a little jab at Alice's Restaurant in the DS video when they stopped to lunch/charge? ::)
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My new bike is already old :(
Doesn't look like they changed too much on the FXS
I want that thicker belt though...
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I'll probably hold off till 2018. Not because I don't want the new models, but because I might be lynched for buying a new bike after only having this one for a year... ;D
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I am wondering if the 2015 version is upgradable to a 2017 version.
Any ideas?
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I am wondering if the 2015 version is upgradable to a 2017 version.
Any ideas?
People ask this all the time. You sell the 2015 and buy a 2017. The cost difference to do this is often many times less expensive than buying all new components for an older bike. Doesn't make sense to do that.
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I am wondering if the 2015 version is upgradable to a 2017 version.
Any ideas?
People ask this all the time. You sell the 2015 and buy a 2017. The cost difference to do this is often many times less expensive than buying all new components for an older bike. Doesn't make sense to do that.
How can people ask this all the time? The 2017 news just came a few hours ago ;)
I have asked before if a DS can be converted to a DSR and that requires a exchange of both controller AND engine. But if the upgrade from a 420A controller to a 550A controller is just the exchange of the controller, I think that this is not a big change. If I compare the specs between the 2016 and 2017 models, these seem to have the same engine.
The reason that it is not interesting to sell the 2015 and buy a 2017 is that the write off of the 2015 is high and I have to pay the governmental incentives back when I sell the bike within 5 years.
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The FX and FXS get a 550 amp controller vs the 420 amp controller for more torque and horsepower too! Wow this will be perhaps too much fun lol.
The hp increases claimed for the FXS don't quite align with the figures quoted for each year. e.g. 44hp to 46 isn't a 5% increase. 70 to 78 ft-lb is about 11% more torque though. There do seen to be differences in how it's measured so maybe it's a case of wait and see what it feels like.
No news on UK pricing (with potential subsidy) but a small price drop quoted in Euros for Belgium and Luxembourg.
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Doesn't look like they changed too much on the FXS
FXS has the least change of all the bikes, for sure. But the upgrade from the 420 amp controller to 550 amp controller is a big deal. Especially for the FX/S and their light weight. Not to mention the change in gear ratio that multiplies the torque to a greater degree than in years past.
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http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/)
More Torque and Horsepower!! 116 lb/ft and 70 hp!
5 year unlimited mileage battery warranty!
Stronger belt!
200+ miles city range and 100+ miles highway at 70 mph with powertank!
Steadily getting better and better each year!
I'm very excited for more power and torque in 2017 from the 775 amp controller vs the 660 amp from 2014-2016!!!
The FX and FXS get a 550 amp controller vs the 420 amp controller for more torque and horsepower too! Wow this will be perhaps too much fun lol.
The specs say that the S 13 has the old belt 28/130
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I am wondering if the 2015 version is upgradable to a 2017 version.
Any ideas?
People ask this all the time. You sell the 2015 and buy a 2017. The cost difference to do this is often many times less expensive than buying all new components for an older bike. Doesn't make sense to do that.
How can people ask this all the time? The 2017 news just came a few hours ago ;)
I have asked before if a DS can be converted to a DSR and that requires a exchange of both controller AND engine. But if the upgrade from a 420A controller to a 550A controller is just the exchange of the controller, I think that this is not a big change. If I compare the specs between the 2016 and 2017 models, these seem to have the same engine.
The reason that it is not interesting to sell the 2015 and buy a 2017 is that the write off of the 2015 is high and I have to pay the governmental incentives back when I sell the bike within 5 years.
Of course, it's technically possible. However, it should be noted that they went to a spline shaft on the motor and the fatter belt to handle the extra torque from the new controllers. You could probably use the new controllers with the older keyed shaft with the smaller belt but may break belts frequently....especially if you are riding like a hooligan doing jumps etc.
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http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/)
More Torque and Horsepower!! 116 lb/ft and 70 hp!
5 year unlimited mileage battery warranty!
Stronger belt!
200+ miles city range and 100+ miles highway at 70 mph with powertank!
Steadily getting better and better each year!
I'm very excited for more power and torque in 2017 from the 775 amp controller vs the 660 amp from 2014-2016!!!
The FX and FXS get a 550 amp controller vs the 420 amp controller for more torque and horsepower too! Wow this will be perhaps too much fun lol.
The specs say that the S 13 has the old belt 28/130
28/130 is the number of teeth on the gears not the belt. However, it does say the S/DS ZF6.5 as well as S/DSR and FX/S use Poly Chain HTD Carbon belt vs. Poly Chain GT Carbon belt. It's curious that only the S/DS ZF13 and S/DS ZF13 w/ power tank use the older belt....I wonder if that's a typo. Looking at the pictures I can only see a S ZF6.5 and it's definitely using the new belt.
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Doesn't look like they changed too much on the FXS
FXS has the least change of all the bikes, for sure. But the upgrade from the 420 amp controller to 550 amp controller is a big deal. Especially for the FX/S and their light weight. Not to mention the change in gear ratio that multiplies the torque to a greater degree than in years past.
They also have a new integrated (not removable) double brick pack.
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I am wondering if the 2015 version is upgradable to a 2017 version.
Any ideas?
People ask this all the time. You sell the 2015 and buy a 2017. The cost difference to do this is often many times less expensive than buying all new components for an older bike. Doesn't make sense to do that.
How can people ask this all the time? The 2017 news just came a few hours ago ;)
I have asked before if a DS can be converted to a DSR and that requires a exchange of both controller AND engine. But if the upgrade from a 420A controller to a 550A controller is just the exchange of the controller, I think that this is not a big change. If I compare the specs between the 2016 and 2017 models, these seem to have the same engine.
The reason that it is not interesting to sell the 2015 and buy a 2017 is that the write off of the 2015 is high and I have to pay the governmental incentives back when I sell the bike within 5 years.
Of course, it's technically possible. However, it should be noted that they went to a spline shaft on the motor and the fatter belt to handle the extra torque from the new controllers. You could probably use the new controllers with the older keyed shaft with the smaller belt but may break belts frequently....especially if you are riding like a hooligan doing jumps etc.
How do you know the motors are the same inside? They may not be.
check out this article, still room to improve.
https://chargedevs.com/features/lord-corporation-builds-on-its-work-potting-electric-motors-reducing-hot-spots-by-up-to-40/
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http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/)
More Torque and Horsepower!! 116 lb/ft and 70 hp!
5 year unlimited mileage battery warranty!
Stronger belt!
200+ miles city range and 100+ miles highway at 70 mph with powertank!
Steadily getting better and better each year!
I'm very excited for more power and torque in 2017 from the 775 amp controller vs the 660 amp from 2014-2016!!!
The FX and FXS get a 550 amp controller vs the 420 amp controller for more torque and horsepower too! Wow this will be perhaps too much fun lol.
The specs say that the S 13 has the old belt 28/130
28/130 is the number of teeth on the gears not the belt. However, it does say the S/DS ZF6.5 as well as S/DSR and FX/S use Poly Chain HTD Carbon belt vs. Poly Chain GT Carbon belt. It's curious that only the S/DS ZF13 and S/DS ZF13 w/ power tank use the older belt....I wonder if that's a typo. Looking at the pictures I can only see a S ZF6.5 and it's definitely using the new belt.
Yes I know, it implies same old (small tooth) belt (the belt has to match the sprocket/gears). The new belt has bigger teeth.
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I got an email with this link and the specs seem a little different also there is an 11kw motor????
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/motorcycles?zmcid=2179&utm_source=zero-db&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=2017%2BLaunch%2BUK (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/motorcycles?zmcid=2179&utm_source=zero-db&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=2017%2BLaunch%2BUK)
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I got an email with this link and the specs seem a little different also there is an 11kw motor????
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/motorcycles?zmcid=2179&utm_source=zero-db&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=2017%2BLaunch%2BUK (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/motorcycles?zmcid=2179&utm_source=zero-db&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=2017%2BLaunch%2BUK)
It's the same bike but European market requires different testing methods for range.
Where did you see 11kW motor...I couldn't find it but looked kinda fast
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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It's in the model selection between S and SR. Over here we have a special category for light motorcycles, but IIRC the downgrade is made by throttling the controller.
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I got an email with this link and the specs seem a little different also there is an 11kw motor????
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/motorcycles?zmcid=2179&utm_source=zero-db&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=2017%2BLaunch%2BUK (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/motorcycles?zmcid=2179&utm_source=zero-db&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=2017%2BLaunch%2BUK)
It's the same bike but European market requires different testing methods for range.
Where did you see 11kW motor...I couldn't find it but looked kinda fast
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
In the specs tab
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It's in the model selection between S and SR. Over here we have a special category for light motorcycles, but IIRC the downgrade is made by throttling the controller.
Oh yeah...I found it. Same motor, same controller. Same bike different programming.
What would be cool is if you could pay to upgrade via firmware update using the Zero app once you are ready for full power [emoji6]
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Speaking of government incentives, I wonder what Congress is going to do this year about extending the 10% Federal electric motorcycle credit. The way the political situation is going this year in the U.S., the little electric motorcycle industry, based mostly in CA (very much a "blue" state), might get caught in the middle like it did in 2014, when Brammo was attacked in the House and the rebate killed off because a Congressman didn't like a Senator from Oregon. :(
If I thought that the 10% rebate is going away I might very well want to replace my 2014 with a 2017 before the end of the year. But if it sticks around for 2017, then I would likely wait for the 2018 models to be introduced before buying a new Zero, since my 2014 is still working really well. ??? Decisions, decisions - complicated by me helping to fund my granddaughters college education.
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I'm actually not impressed. I am not a torque chaser, and was hoping for a fundamentally different (bigger) dual-sport bike.
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I don't seek increased speed or torque, but the systems upgrades are nice to see.
One irritation: the Power Tank 3.3 is listed as compatible only with 2017 models. I was holding out for just that upgrade to my 2016 DSR. I'd mostly prefer some kind of assurance that the Power Tank interactions with the Main Pack BMS or MBB were sorted out. I guess I'll inquire separately about this, but I don't expect my dealer to even try to get such an exception from Zero.
I'll wait on finding out what the "long brick" possibilities are, since it's only described in limited form on the website. Sharing the long brick between FX/FXS and low-priced S/DS models is a good strategy, but they should allow upgrades for those S/DS owners instead of just storage space allowance.
Ref: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=239 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=239)
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I don't seek increased speed or torque, but the systems upgrades are nice to see.
One irritation: the Power Tank 3.3 is listed as compatible only with 2017 models. I was holding out for just that upgrade to my 2016 DSR. I'd mostly prefer some kind of assurance that the Power Tank interactions with the Main Pack BMS or MBB were sorted out. I guess I'll inquire separately about this, but I don't expect my dealer to even try to get such an exception from Zero.
I'll wait on finding out what the "long brick" possibilities are, since it's only described in limited form on the website. Sharing the long brick between FX/FXS and low-priced S/DS models is a good strategy, but they should allow upgrades for those S/DS owners instead of just storage space allowance.
Ref: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=239 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=239)
The specs are a bit all over the place. The european specs I read say the power tank is compatible from 2014 models onwards and the long FX/FXS battery is non removeable (like the monolith on S/SR/DS/DSR).
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I wonder if Zero is using a new model Sevcon controller or a different brand?
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What is the difference anymore between FX and FXS? Just tires and cast wheels vs spokes?
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What is the difference anymore between FX and FXS? Just tires and cast wheels vs spokes?
Suspension is different....more travel on the FX. Buy yeah....other than that just wheels and tires. IMHO that's the way it should be.
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I wonder if Zero is using a new model Sevcon controller or a different brand?
I "heard".. this is Sevcon =)
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...things I should have been taking pictures of when I was sitting on 2017 Zeros last weekend.
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Already wondering how much I would have to pay to trade in my 2016 for a 2017. Increased performance was the one thing that would make me consider trading, really curious to see what the new 0-60 is, or how significant the increase would feel overall.
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Already wondering how much I would have to pay to trade in my 2016 for a 2017. Increased performance was the one thing that would make me consider trading, really curious to see what the new 0-60 is, or how significant the increase would feel overall.
Feel free to copy, play around with this.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q5-J-v3C_hzuElEOwJzPPk1r5cL-lQkSjb6bL2D6sqQ/edit#gid=0
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwzH5HnW8AAmP7Z.jpg:large)
2017 SR should be a bit over 10% quicker than 2016, depending on rider weight. The S bikes see a larger change, 20 to 27% quicker.
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Feel free to copy, play around with this.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q5-J-v3C_hzuElEOwJzPPk1r5cL-lQkSjb6bL2D6sqQ/edit#gid=0
2017 SR should be a bit over 10% quicker than 2016, depending on rider weight. The S bikes see a larger change, 20 to 27% quicker.
thanks for that!
we finally could crack under 4s with the stock 2017 SR. I was a bit disappointed that i was not able to get unter 4.2s 0-100km/h for the ratet 3.3s SR2016. we are still not at 3.3s but it's getting better
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That locking tank, I'm interested in how the bodywork will fit with a Zero with a Power Tank. There's still plenty of room to make a compartment for your wallet and sandwiches.
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According to the spec page, the FX / FXs 6.5 DOES have the integrated battery. I wonder if you got a 3.3 if you can still add a second battery.
I wonder why they put a 1.3 charger on the 6.5 S but left the 650 on the FX / FXs? There also seems to be a significant increase in range with
the 6.5 FXs in the three lower ranges but, LESS in the two higher range specs while being similar with the FX. Disappointed that J1772 connector isn't standard.
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I wonder why they put a 1.3 charger on the 6.5 S but left the 650 on the FX / FXs?
I would guess space and the size of the charger.
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Already wondering how much I would have to pay to trade in my 2016 for a 2017. Increased performance was the one thing that would make me consider trading, really curious to see what the new 0-60 is, or how significant the increase would feel overall.
Feel free to copy, play around with this.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q5-J-v3C_hzuElEOwJzPPk1r5cL-lQkSjb6bL2D6sqQ/edit#gid=0
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwzH5HnW8AAmP7Z.jpg:large)
2017 SR should be a bit over 10% quicker than 2016, depending on rider weight. The S bikes see a larger change, 20 to 27% quicker.
Nice. I'd be interested in adding the FXS to the spreadsheet. Where does on find the gearing?
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we finally could crack under 4s with the stock 2017 SR. I was a bit disappointed that i was not able to get unter 4.2s 0-100km/h for the ratet 3.3s SR2016. we are still not at 3.3s but it's getting better
Bear in mind that the calculated 0-60s time is just that, it's a very simplified model. MCN tested a 2014 SR PT with a 109 kg rider (http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=3708) and reported 4.58s where the calculator shows 4.29s, so there are probably some additional losses or simplifications that are being made.
Using that same fudge factor, a 40 kg rider should have been able to get 3.3s 0-60 time out of the 2014 Zero SR. I've added the "fudged" 0-60 times as a check.
According to the spec page, the FX / FXs 6.5 DOES have the integrated battery. I wonder if you got a 3.3 if you can still add a second battery.
I wonder why they put a 1.3 charger on the 6.5 S but left the 650 on the FX / FXs? There also seems to be a significant increase in range with
the 6.5 FXs in the three lower ranges but, LESS in the two higher range specs while being similar with the FX. Disappointed that J1772 connector isn't standard
You should be able to purchase a second battery module and add it to the FX / FXS 3.3.
The FXS has smoother tires that roll more easily, which helps city range. At highway range power consumption for both bikes are dominated by drag, which should be similar.
Nice. I'd be interested in adding the FXS to the spreadsheet. Where does on find the gearing?
Added the FXS. Also turned on public editing for assumptions to taste. The gearing is based on the front and rear sprockets, ie a 90 tooth rear and 20 tooth front is 90/20 = 4.5 gearing.
Note the FXS should be a little slower for 2017, as the gearing is much lower. However, this SHOULD give the FXS a similar top speed to the DS ZF6.5 (98 mph top speed, 80 mph sustained) as they have the same battery, motor, gearing, and very similar tire size. Zero claims no change from the 2016 FXS, which is interesting. I would also expect the integrated battery model to be significantly lighter.
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After last night's presidential and congressional elections, I have a bad feeling that the EV credit will be fading away next year when the 2017 Federal budget is adopted. :o Already, Tesla stock has tanked this morning. :( That is not a good sign. And as you already know, electric motorcycles (and everything that affects California, for that matter) will get the short end of any funding stick. :( There goes the high-speed rail project funding, too. It is going to be an "interesting" four years. ::)
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After last night's presidential and congressional elections, I have a bad feeling that the EV credit will be fading away next year when the 2017 Federal budget is adopted. :o Already, Tesla stock has tanked this morning. :( That is not a good sign. And as you already know, electric motorcycles (and everything that affects California, for that matter) will get the short end of any funding stick. :( There goes the high-speed rail project funding, too. It is going to be an "interesting" four years. ::)
Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/) the movie if you're wondering what's coming next.
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The 2017 Zero S has 50% less range but costs the same as the 2016 Zero S?
Am I reading that wrong?
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The 2017 Zero S has 50% less range but costs the same as the 2016 Zero S?
Am I reading that wrong?
Yes.
At $11k: the 2017 S ZF6.5 has 2/3 of the range of the 2016 S ZF9.8 - 54 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php) vs 81 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/2016/specs.php) combined miles. The 2017 bike is 63 pounds lighter, about 25% quicker, and has additional locking storage .. so that's the tradeoff for the range penalty.
At $14k: the 2017 S ZF13 has the same range as the 2016 S ZF13. The 2017 bike is about 20% quicker, but otherwise similar to the 2016.
The 2016 SR is about 45% quicker than the 2016 S ZF13, so the 2017 bikes split the difference to the '16 SR.. nevermind the 2017 SR, which is likewise appreciably quicker.
All the 2017 bikes gain a stronger belt (except oddly the S/DS ZF13 - perhaps they're getting rid of parts?) and easier remote maintenance, which is appreciated.
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I was told that the battery is easily half the cost of the bike though, so it's not so much a trade off as a steep increase in price, no?
So the 2016 Zero S was a much better deal
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I was told that the battery is easily half the cost of the bike though, so it's not so much a trade off as a steep increase in price, no?
So the 2016 Zero S was a much better deal
The three-brick 2016 S has more miles per dollar than the 2017 S ZF6.5. But the four-brick ZF13 has more miles per dollar than either.
I suspect Zero ran the numbers and found that most of the people that cared about range bought the four brick bike. The people that had very limited range needs - people with short commutes, or people that can easily charge at home, work, and outside - bought the three brick bike, and would mostly have been similarly well-served by a two-brick bike.
The people that still really need range are still well-served by the ZF13 bike.
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It would really make a lot of sense if those 6.5 bikes could be upgraded later to 13 by replacing the storage area with another "long brick". That way someone who enters the market with a low range commute and then has a change of plans can just adapt. I'm certainly scratching my head at the lack of an upgrade to balance out the weird tradeoff here.
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It would really make a lot of sense if those 6.5 bikes could be upgraded later to 13 by replacing the storage area with another "long brick". That way someone who enters the market with a low range commute and then has a change of plans can just adapt. I'm certainly scratching my head at the lack of an upgrade to balance out the weird tradeoff here.
This is more difficult than replacing a three-brick monolith with a four-brick monolith. In addition to removing the storage component and replacing the long-brick monolith with a four-brick monolith, you're still left with the 46 hp 75-5 motor instead of a 60 hp 75-7 motor, which is now hauling around 95 additional pounds.
You're better off all-round to sell the two-brick bike and buy the four-brick bike, if you decide post-purchase that you do want the additional range.
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They keep improving, unlike a certain Leaf car :)
I wonder if I'll ever upgrade. This summer my bike was asleep for most of the time, I like to drive it but I also like to drive my Tesla now. I hope it won't degrade the battery too much, being at 100% all the time. I might consider selling it and maybe buy a new one in a few years.
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Curious about these numbers - my 2015 SR is supposed to go 0-60 in 3.3 sec (I don't know how to go back the the 2015 specs online, but that was what it said when I got my bike).
Is my 2015 SR quicker than a 2017 SR?
I was anxiuosly awaiting the announcement of the 2017's - also hoping for a fast-charging option, but sort of relieved that my bike isn't yet obsolete ;-)
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Is my 2015 SR quicker than a 2017 SR?
No, it shouldn't be. The 2015 uses basically the same motor but weighs a little more than a 2014 SR. I've added the 2014 SR to the sheet.
The 2017 SR should be around 3.0 seconds if measured in the same way as their previous claims - but as with the existing 3.3 second claim, most people will see slightly lower acceleration.
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Is my 2015 SR quicker than a 2017 SR?
No, it shouldn't be. The 2015 uses basically the same motor but weighs a little more than a 2014 SR. I've added the 2014 SR to the sheet.
The 2017 SR should be around 3.0 seconds if measured in the same way as their previous claims - but as with the existing 3.3 second claim, most people will see slightly lower acceleration.
As always the weight of the rider is a big factor. The specs don't lie, but do you weigh 70kg? The specs on the spread sheet are more inline with us heavier guys.
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Id be surprised if the 0-60 is 3 seconds as thats about equal to an energica ego
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As always the weight of the rider is a big factor. The specs don't lie, but do you weigh 70kg? The specs on the spread sheet are more inline with us heavier guys.
Yeah the specs did lie (0-60 times)! Exept for a calculation without driver, then it would be possible ;)
Check out this thread http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5877.msg43611#msg43611 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5877.msg43611#msg43611)
I haven't seen a anyone getting measured times under 4s with a stock SR < 2017. At 0-60 in 4.25s I was at max 85kg inkl. riding Gear&Helmet, thats 6% heavier overall weight that with a 70kg rider. You can make the calculation for yourself ;)
I think they took the 0-60 times away because they fucked up the old calculation and never actually measured it. And they cant put the same or a slower number for a stronger and shorter geared bike in, because this would show the mistake (although it would be the right thing todo).
Dont get me wrong, i love my SR. But i have a ICE-Bike for comparison that is also ratet arround 3.3s 0-100 and its a damn lot faster at a drag race. Not in everyday use though ;) Electric torque is just the thing to have
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Looking at my 2015 SR manuel specs there is no 0-60 times in it either. Only on the website specs.
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As always the weight of the rider is a big factor. The specs don't lie, but do you weigh 70kg? The specs on the spread sheet are more inline with us heavier guys.
I weigh 70kg, my FXS doesn't come close to the 3.8 seconds advertised. Really closer to 5.
I just barely go faster than some scooter, honestly a bit disappointing because I was sold on incorrect figures.
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As always the weight of the rider is a big factor. The specs don't lie, but do you weigh 70kg? The specs on the spread sheet are more inline with us heavier guys.
Yeah the specs did lie (0-60 times)! Exept for a calculation without driver, then it would be possible ;)
Check out this thread http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5877.msg43611#msg43611 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5877.msg43611#msg43611)
I haven't seen a anyone getting measured times under 4s with a stock SR < 2017. At 0-60 in 4.25s I was at max 85kg inkl. riding Gear&Helmet, thats 6% heavier overall weight that with a 70kg rider. You can make the calculation for yourself ;)
I think they took the 0-60 times away because they fucked up the old calculation and never actually measured it. And they cant put the same or a slower number for a stronger and shorter geared bike in, because this would show the mistake (although it would be the right thing todo).
Dont get me wrong, i love my SR. But i have a ICE-Bike for comparison that is also ratet arround 3.3s 0-100 and its a damn lot faster at a drag race. Not in everyday use though ;) Electric torque is just the thing to have
So the new gearing is better for 0-60 times?
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As always the weight of the rider is a big factor. The specs don't lie, but do you weigh 70kg? The specs on the spread sheet are more inline with us heavier guys.
Yeah the specs did lie (0-60 times)! Exept for a calculation without driver, then it would be possible ;)
Check out this thread http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5877.msg43611#msg43611 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5877.msg43611#msg43611)
I haven't seen a anyone getting measured times under 4s with a stock SR < 2017. At 0-60 in 4.25s I was at max 85kg inkl. riding Gear&Helmet, thats 6% heavier overall weight that with a 70kg rider. You can make the calculation for yourself ;)
I think they took the 0-60 times away because they fucked up the old calculation and never actually measured it. And they cant put the same or a slower number for a stronger and shorter geared bike in, because this would show the mistake (although it would be the right thing todo).
Dont get me wrong, i love my SR. But i have a ICE-Bike for comparison that is also ratet arround 3.3s 0-100 and its a damn lot faster at a drag race. Not in everyday use though ;) Electric torque is just the thing to have
So the new gearing is better for 0-60 times?
It must be as there is more torque at the back wheel for 2017 SR.
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It would really make a lot of sense if those 6.5 bikes could be upgraded later to 13 by replacing the storage area with another "long brick". That way someone who enters the market with a low range commute and then has a change of plans can just adapt. I'm certainly scratching my head at the lack of an upgrade to balance out the weird tradeoff here.
This is more difficult than replacing a three-brick monolith with a four-brick monolith. In addition to removing the storage component and replacing the long-brick monolith with a four-brick monolith, ...
This is not what I was suggesting. I thought that the long brick fit in the same space as the storage component, and that the bike achieved a 13 rating with two long bricks physically adjacent (yes, by removing the storage bin but probably also by removing the dividing bracket). I'm disappointed to admit that they do not seem to have achieved that.
What I'm genuinely unsure about is how the BMS relates to these changes. Each brick on an FX and each power tank has its own BMS. One monolith has a BMS. The new FX power source is a long brick - which contains a BMS, I would think? The new monoliths presumably are constructed internally with long brick construction just to simplify or consolidate parts. But does a monolith still have one BMS, then? A BMS takes up space, and it's notable that the front plate arrangement on new Zero's is a little different for unclear reasons.
This doesn't clarify to me why the ZF3.3 Power Tank is not backwards-compatible with older bikes, though, and I'm interested in this because I want to know whether various mystery issues with power tanks have been solved.
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More news on the 2017 lineup: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107457_2017-zero-electric-motorcycles-more-range-more-power-better-options
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Anyone know if '17 bodies can be retrofitted to '16 models? In particular I'm eyeballing the new lockable storage @ '17 DSR.
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I'm pretty sure the answer is "Yes" but you might be better off asking that question of Zero itself through their "Contact Us" link on their website to be sure.
You'd have to replace the entire tank, and I'm not aware of any structural differences between the 2016 and 2017 bikes that would prevent that swap. However, since you'd have to replace the entire assembly, it may be cheaper to simply get the Carbon Fiber cover sold by Hollywood Electrics instead. It was so easy to install, even *I* could do it.
Final consideration: The 2016 and earlier bikes had molded-in color plastics whereas the 2017 bikes now have painted plastics. The color match MAY look a little "different."
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The updated battery warranty is very nice, and the improved torque is nice too...
I also suspect that the switch from 3-brick to 2-brick is because not too many people bought the 3-brick models...
I further suspect that even less people will buy the 2-brickers. Noone buys a motorcycle to ride at city speeds with no acceleration -- an e-scooter or e-bicycle do a better job there. The S/DS ZF6.5 has 40-50mi realistic range the way motorcycles are usually ridden. That's is OK for many commutes, but not any kind of road trip.
I think that as Tesla (and all other BEV carmaker) eventually decided, it's enough to offer two battery sizes. At Zero's smaller volumes, I doubt there's justification for three. I expect Zero to follow suit, and within a year or two offer just the 4-brick (ZF13) and the PowerTank versions.
That aside, I'm mostly disappointed by the lineup.
IMO, at least for the way road bikes and dual-sports are ridden, Zero's #1, #2 and #3 glaring problems are range, range and range.
A compromise aerodynamic fairing (aesthetically more acceptable than Terry's record-breakers) that gives a 30% improvement in high-speed range should be possible technically, but probably requires resources Zero don't have in house. So I was just a little bit disappointed when it didn't show up a year ago.
But I don't think there was a valid reason not to offer better charging options for 2016, and even less not to make any progress for the 2017 models. Zero should have all the expertise in house to make it happen.
1.3kW on AC is completely ridiculous. 3.3kW should be the minimum, without requiring an extra accessory (ChargeTank), particularly one that removes the PowerTank option; the Energica has this as the onboard charger. More likely 6.6kW/7.2kW should be supported, which makes local-area destination charging useful (a 1-hour stop at shopping mallis enough to get you home, even if near-empty).
What's really needed, however, for day trips, is a DCFC.
This (http://insideevs.com/energica-ego-fast-charge-video/) is how the Energica Ego does it (video from 1.5 years ago): 20kW, so a charge to 80% SoC takes ~30min, and the taper to full another 20min or so (it would be a bit more with current Zeros with their larger batteries, but not by much).
Yes, I know that there have been some compatibility issues with chargers not dealing with Zero's low voltage (relative to an EV's traction battery), but that needs to be addressed -- if no Zero has DCFC, what's the charger vendors' motivation to fix it?
f the HW needed for this on the bike is expensive -- make it an option (I suspect >50% of riders, probably more like 90%, would get it), but most importantly, range is the biggest obstacle to adoption of electric motorcycles among the riders I know.
It's not a bit more torque, which was plenty good already.
Of course, I know about the DigiNow plans --but this should be OEM developed and integrated, or it won't be a mass-adopted item, and it shouldn't take away from luggage space.
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A compromise aerodynamic fairing (aesthetically more acceptable than Terry's record-breakers) that gives a 30% improvement in high-speed range should be possible technically, but probably requires resources Zero don't have in house. So I was just a little bit disappointed when it didn't show up a year ago.
I know they're interested, but they're mum about what might be going on, what they're aiming for, and why it's taking time.
They did make a big emphasis at the 10-year anniversary party about spending a lot of resources this last year clearing regulatory hurdles for more international sales, as a way of explaining and maybe warning not to expect too much from 2017.
But I don't think there was a valid reason not to offer better charging options for 2016, and even less not to make any progress for the 2017 models. Zero should have all the expertise in house to make it happen.
1.3kW on AC is completely ridiculous. 3.3kW should be the minimum, without requiring an extra accessory (ChargeTank), particularly one that removes the PowerTank option; the Energica has this as the onboard charger. More likely 6.6kW/7.2kW should be supported, which makes local-area destination charging useful (a 1-hour stop at shopping mallis enough to get you home, even if near-empty).
There's definitely room for an onboard charger in the existing space to at least take in 220V at the same amperage yielding more like 2.5kW like the Elcon 2500. I think what's limiting right now is the number of companies working on this problem that don't have compactness and vehicle-rating on their design constraints - Zero piggybacks off of the suppliers for electric forklifts and light industrial trucks, which is great when it works but only progresses because that market is bigger than this one.
And the kicker to all of this is that supplier quality levels can still be really unpredictable. Calex' charger is so conservative but it still has a failure rate that is noticeable to the community! Zero must have a sense that they want those issues shaken out before they start buying from a new supplier.
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A compromise aerodynamic fairing (aesthetically more acceptable than Terry's record-breakers) that gives a 30% improvement in high-speed range should be possible technically, but probably requires resources Zero don't have in house. So I was just a little bit disappointed when it didn't show up a year ago.
I know they're interested, but they're mum about what might be going on, what they're aiming for, and why it's taking time.
They did make a big emphasis at the 10-year anniversary party about spending a lot of resources this last year clearing regulatory hurdles for more international sales, as a way of explaining and maybe warning not to expect too much from 2017.
Interesting.
Although, my sense of an interview or two around the intro of the 2016 models a year ago was "don't expect too much technically, because we're focused on growing sales" -- which did seem to be true; they made progress particularly on fleet sales, IIUC. I'm pretty sure there are virtually no regulatory hurdles for international sales left (no emissions issues...), given they're already selling into several dozen countries, incl. all the significant markets (realistically, Zeros are too expensive to sell in China, India etc., and only snob-cache non-Japanese motorcycles get sold in Japan).
I don't like hearing the same reason the second year in a row... Esp. given basically no battery improvement.
But I don't think there was a valid reason not to offer better charging options for 2016, and even less not to make any progress for the 2017 models. Zero should have all the expertise in house to make it happen.
1.3kW on AC is completely ridiculous. 3.3kW should be the minimum, without requiring an extra accessory (ChargeTank), particularly one that removes the PowerTank option; the Energica has this as the onboard charger. More likely 6.6kW/7.2kW should be supported, which makes local-area destination charging useful (a 1-hour stop at shopping mallis enough to get you home, even if near-empty).
There's definitely room for an onboard charger in the existing space to at least take in 220V at the same amperage yielding more like 2.5kW like the Elcon 2500. I think what's limiting right now is the number of companies working on this problem that don't have compactness and vehicle-rating on their design constraints - Zero piggybacks off of the suppliers for electric forklifts and light industrial trucks, which is great when it works but only progresses because that market is bigger than this one.
makes sense. From the pics I've seen, it doesn't look like the Energica has more space available than Zero... Oh, well, we'll have to wait another year to see what transpires.
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An internal charger more than 1.3 kW may be great for the European market but don't think it would work well for the US market. Most people in the US just charge their bikes from a 110 volt outlet and a 3.3 kW charger would just blow fuses all of the time. I installed a 220 volt outlet in my garage for charging at home with my Elcons but that is not an option for many people.
When it comes to larger battery packs and longer range I think Zero is coming up against the space available in the frame they are using. Yes new battery tech will help some but it will mean small, incremental gains in battery size. The Brutus V9 can handle a 33.7 kWh battery pack. But the Brutus V9 is a large motorcycle, very close if not equal to a H-D Road King. The wheel base on a V9 is 65 inches compared to 55.5 for a Zero SR. The V9 with a 33.7 kWh battery weighs 886 lbs compared to a SR with Power Tank at 458 lbs. But if Zero designed another motorcycle and it was the size of a Brutus V9 it will also come at a much higher price. The higher price would put the bike out of range for many people. Zero designed a small motorcycle in order to keep the price down and within the budgets of more people. Everything is a compromise.
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I'm pretty sure there are virtually no regulatory hurdles for international sales left (no emissions issues...), given they're already selling into several dozen countries, incl. all the significant markets (realistically, Zeros are too expensive to sell in China, India etc., and only snob-cache non-Japanese motorcycles get sold in Japan).
The operative word, if I recall correctly, was "electromagnetic". I didn't expect that, either.
I don't like hearing the same reason the second year in a row... Esp. given basically no battery improvement.
I don't find it satisfying, either. They've clearly been working on charging solutions since/before the 2013 model came out, though, and the products they release are what survive the process of design, testing, and probably a certain amount of market research ("who's going to buy this at X price?").
Yet their bikes remain small-form-factor machines physically that don't match their 650cc+-equivalent powertrains, and don't extract enough range out of the battery at speed. They're holding back, but probably just to keep from bleeding money on R&D and incompatible platform change costs.
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The big ticket items for 2018 should be (I hope) the 32ah pouches (or better) and a faster charger to replace the current onboard charger. Optional extras :- a faring for improved range, variable regen lever where the clutch lever goes and reverse would be nice to have.
Should we start a 2018 wish list thread now?
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Anyone know if '17 bodies can be retrofitted to '16 models? In particular I'm eyeballing the new lockable storage @ '17 DSR.
Yes. Zero is replacing my '15 plastics with the new premium painted plastics with the locking storage case under warranty. 8)
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DC Fast Charge would be great. I did not think there were a lot in may area until I looked at the map.
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Yet their bikes remain small-form-factor machines physically
I really like the size of the zeros ATM
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no regulatory hurdles for international sales left
Haha.
No.
Chatting to Zero Europe this weekend, there has been some serious work regarding changes to EU regulation, on top of that they had to get the A1 Licence bikes type approved as well. Aside from other markets that alone was a ball ache for them.
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Yet their bikes remain small-form-factor machines physically
I really like the size of the zeros ATM
It's a fine form factor for what it is and I don't think they should abandon it; I think they need two.
BUT we're talking about a frame with serious size and ergonomic limitations:
- You can't glance at the dash while keeping an eye on traffic.
- Windscreens that are adequate on other bikes direct air into your chest on a Zero because the cockpit is so short.
- It has serious support anchor limitations when it comes to building a cockpit, mounting fairings, or carrying luggage. Examples: the steering head has a VIN plate on it, the shoulder of the frame is too smooth to anchor onto, the upper bolt holes for the crash bars are merely M5, and then the tail section assembly is sort of a bolt-on affair that can easily get degraded over time.
Even the way Terry mounted his Vetter fairing on the 2012S doesn't work as well on 2013 models.
Anyway, the powertrain is capable of handling much more load than the frame is rated for, and the frame isn't shaped to grow.
I understand the reasons why, but it's worth pointing out that there are bikes classified as lightweight or even middleweight touring vehicles with the same powertrain performance (aside from wheelies): the V-Strom, BMW F650GS, and Kawasaki Versys, say.
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no regulatory hurdles for international sales left
Haha.
No.
Chatting to Zero Europe this weekend, there has been some serious work regarding changes to EU regulation, on top of that they had to get the A1 Licence bikes type approved as well. Aside from other markets that alone was a ball ache for them.
Interesting.
We (Israel) adopted the European tiered-license scheme (A2/A1/A) some time back; Zero bikes are all considered A1 for licensing purposes (despite the motors' all being much above 11kW) , so I assumed that was the case in Europe as well... I guess not.
So I assume there are special, limited-motor Zero versions available, like the ICE-bike manufacturers have?
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Yes, but IIRC the limit is in the firmware. When you age and get to the next category you can just remove the limitation.
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no regulatory hurdles for international sales left
Haha.
No.
Chatting to Zero Europe this weekend, there has been some serious work regarding changes to EU regulation, on top of that they had to get the A1 Licence bikes type approved as well. Aside from other markets that alone was a ball ache for them.
Interesting.
We (Israel) adopted the European tiered-license scheme (A2/A1/A) some time back; Zero bikes are all considered A1 for licensing purposes (despite the motors' all being much above 11kW) , so I assumed that was the case in Europe as well... I guess not.
So I assume there are special, limited-motor Zero versions available, like the ICE-bike manufacturers have?
Maybe all Zero needs to do is to comply with A1 regulations is to glue the mode button to "eco" mode. ;)
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BUT we're talking about a frame with serious size and ergonomic limitations:
- You can't glance at the dash while keeping an eye on traffic.
- Windscreens that are adequate on other bikes direct air into your chest on a Zero because the cockpit is so short.
- It has serious support anchor limitations when it comes to building a cockpit, mounting fairings, or carrying luggage. Examples: the steering head has a VIN plate on it, the shoulder of the frame is too smooth to anchor onto, the upper bolt holes for the crash bars are merely M5, and then the tail section assembly is sort of a bolt-on affair that can easily get degraded over time.
Even the way Terry mounted his Vetter fairing on the 2012S doesn't work as well on 2013 models.
These are all good points. Thank you.
I wish we could solve the first with a helmet HUD...
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Finish all my intended mods to my new 2017 Zero SR I picked up 3 days ago. Windscreen, hand guards, risers, tail tiddy, top rack with top case, LED turn signal bulbs, and accessory plug. Love the last two days commuting on it to work and back. It really puts a smile on my face when I crack the throttle while going highway speeds.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1N5op-N0HIWC4u1p1E4VL8bEmfHJ-NYwDvhrgxYukcJPg1c0Bm4OGzR4hnQfjlcTUWzXav9Phw=w2400-h1350-rw-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hTjrcv7xwT2mqTnflgrXEMAkhz3-rZmE0lVHQG5I46kq_jk9FqiH3JlOgtNc6bf5o2LELFWT8w=w2400-h1350-rw-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mC8EoPz7LDaQfBkhMvMNcN77Z3QdTMJGF1R7Pm1uAEVcnIrutEZ6734JeXxZXbsiAe6Oaq79sw=w2400-h1350-rw-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PtlF-NLfq_s/WENQ6hgqSbI/AAAAAAAALn0/RgR8kZ81jW8PPbhYdkvfFkTleAiZ51KQACJoC/w663-h498-p-rw/16%2B-%2B1)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sZfg38Zji1bIjvR57QcJNN-Eo1tCPJwAoaQu8EKB9Lo9mFFLEFzGNvOCkvVRxHOBKMVT74nU1w=w2400-h1350-rw-no)
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Your favorite color is ... blue?
Red. I mean red. Obviously red.
Nice lookin' bike you got there. Did you install the accessories? Mind having a look through Zeromanual (http://zeromanual.com) and verify / comment if there are some differences to what we have there?
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Thanks for the "blue" compliments :)
I did a lot of reading on the "Unofficial Zero Service Manual" while waiting for the bike to be delivered. It was how I figured out to do some of the installs. Pretty much factory OEM stuff except for the LED's, Risers,Tail Tiddy, Hand Guards, and horn. The LED turn signals are from my sold '15 BMW R1200GS I purchased from http://dynamicmotorrad.com/. (http://dynamicmotorrad.com/.) The 2017 Zero uses RY10 bulbs on CAN bus just like my BMW and bulbs work perfectly; no flasher or resistors needed, plug-n-play. Not the cheapest solution, but the easiest to install and the brightness is superior to most.
People at work thought I was crazy to trade my BMW in for a Zero. I have no regrets so far. After buying a new dual-sport bike early Fall I was only using the BMW for commuting mostly anyway so just didn't make sense to keep it for that. Rumors are BMW is bringing a hybrid motorcycle to market for 2018 with a front wheel electric hub and keeping the ICE as the primary rear drive power. If this goes to market, I would expect Zero to offer it shortly afterwards as well. From BMW it would be better fuel range, for Zero even better acceleration.
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Thanks for the "blue" compliments :)
I did a lot of reading on the "Unofficial Zero Service Manual" while waiting for the bike to be delivered. It was how I figured out to do some of the installs. Pretty much factory OEM stuff except for the LED's, Risers,Tail Tiddy, Hand Guards, and horn. The LED turn signals are from my sold '15 BMW R1200GS I purchased from http://dynamicmotorrad.com/. (http://dynamicmotorrad.com/.) The 2017 Zero uses RY10 bulbs on CAN bus just like my BMW and bulbs work perfectly; no flasher or resistors needed, plug-n-play. Not the cheapest solution, but the easiest to install and the brightness is superior to most.
People at work thought I was crazy to trade my BMW in for a Zero. I have no regrets so far. After buying a new dual-sport bike early Fall I was only using the BMW for commuting mostly anyway so just didn't make sense to keep it for that. Rumors are BMW is bringing a hybrid motorcycle to market for 2018 with a front wheel electric hub and keeping the ICE as the primary rear drive power. If this goes to market, I would expect Zero to offer it shortly afterwards as well. From BMW it would be better fuel range, for Zero even better acceleration.
Interesting about BMW... I suspect such a 2WD bike would be most relevant for offroad however -- I can't find the reference but recall reading years ago that driving the steerable front wheel has issues, because of gyroscopic effects. There's also the unsprung weight problem, which is apparently a major part of the reason no production EV cars are using hub motors. Even the Mercedes which had 4 separate motors didn't do this.
Re Zero offering such a thing, I assume you mean with two electric motors? An interesting concept, but I suspect would need a lot more R&D than a company like Zero could afford (how do you apportion power between the two motors? That's really complex to get right).
I expect it makes more sense for them to develop a 2nd product line for larger-frame bike that could serve as a tourer / sport-tourer etc.
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-- I can't find the reference but recall reading years ago that driving the steerable front wheel has issues, because of gyroscopic effects.
I had a dual motor electric bicycle made from two different kits. The front was independently controlled by a left hand throttle. It will probably forever be the best electric bicycle I had. The front drive felt like it pulled the bike through corners, like a 4-wheel drive truck does in dirt and snow.
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Tesla gets more range from the same battery in their AWD models. I think they tune the FWD motor for efficiency and the RWD motor for acceleration. Maybe the same can be done with a 2WD electric motorcycle.
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Tesla gets more range from the same battery in their AWD models. I think they tune the FWD motor for efficiency and the RWD motor for acceleration. Maybe the same can be done with a 2WD electric motorcycle.
I believe the front motor is geared higher and the computer picks the motor thats in its sweet spot (or closest to it) to drive with, i.e. back motor for take off and front motor for higher speed cruising, and if you push the pedal to the floor far enough, both motors drive.
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Anyone know the width of the 2017 belt?
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Anyone know the width of the 2017 belt?
17mm...old belt is 14mm
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Old belt width is 14mm. new one is wider, don't know exactly how much.
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