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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Justin Andrews on November 08, 2016, 04:34:57 AM

Title: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Justin Andrews on November 08, 2016, 04:34:57 AM
That is diesels in particular. Turning out of a junction this evening, I hit a patch and my SR spat me off as I tried to accelerate away. 

Bike is not too badly damaged, bent handlebar and smashed mirror, plus ground a good chunk of the brake lever away... ::)

My poor elbows a mess, but the bike rode on home without missing a beat.

Its a Tough little bike.


Remember everyone, dont be like me, keep the rubber side down this Winter.  ;)
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: rayivers on November 08, 2016, 04:55:50 AM
Glad you're not badly hurt!  Hey, aren't the grips rubber?  :)

Ray
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: ZeroPointZero on November 08, 2016, 05:01:52 AM
That is diesels in particular. Turning out of a junction this evening, I hit a patch and my SR spat me off as I tried to accelerate away. 

Bike is not too badly damaged, bent handlebar and smashed mirror, plus ground a good chunk of the brake lever away... ::)

My poor elbows a mess, but the bike rode on home without missing a beat.

Its a Tough little bike.


Remember everyone, dont be like me, keep the rubber side down this Winter.  ;)

Glad youre ok.  How fast were you going?  Were you wearing CE Armor?  In hindsight, was there anything you could have done to prevent it?  Were you rounding a corner when you lost and then regained traction of the rear wheel, in other words "highsided" ?
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Justin Andrews on November 08, 2016, 02:41:24 PM
I was doing about 30mph, and just starting to accelerate away out of the junction. Luckly I was wearing very good armour indeed, including an airbag motorcycle jacket with an integrated spine protector.

Not much I could have done to prevent it. I reflex closed the throttle, but the rear wheel was spinning too fast and sliding out by that point.
About the only thing that might have prevented it was coming out the junction slower. Spotting diesel on the road at night is a non-starter... ;)


Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: MajorMajor on November 08, 2016, 03:23:59 PM
Get well soon!
Never considered that one of the benefits of electric vehicles will be a lot less oil on the roads.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: vinceherman on November 09, 2016, 01:16:06 AM
And here I thought this would be a rant against petroleum fueled bikes.
Glad you are relatively OK.

Ice blows.  A few years ago I had to have my brother plow the snow so I could leave for Daytona Beach.
(http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu35/vinceherman/VinceInSnow.jpg)
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on November 09, 2016, 01:57:31 AM
I was doing about 30mph, and just starting to accelerate away out of the junction. Luckly I was wearing very good armour indeed, including an airbag motorcycle jacket with an integrated spine protector.

Not much I could have done to prevent it. I reflex closed the throttle, but the rear wheel was spinning too fast and sliding out by that point.
About the only thing that might have prevented it was coming out the junction slower. Spotting diesel on the road at night is a non-starter... ;)

Glad you had the right gear on.

What torque ramp setting were you in? Eco mode is 40%.

Dual sport geometry (suspension, bars, wheel size, tread) fairs marginally better in my experience.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Justin Andrews on November 09, 2016, 05:09:08 PM
I was in custom mode, full torque though.
I'm dialed down the torque while the roads are greasy.

I suspect the old Diversion will be coming out of storage soon though as the Winter starts to bite.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on November 09, 2016, 10:44:04 PM
Okay. Definitely take it easy and hopefully lower torque setting sorts you out.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Shadow on November 10, 2016, 09:52:26 PM
That wiggle in the center of my DSR's center-of-mass over icy roads may make a god-fearing athiest out of me yet!
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: GambitDash on November 11, 2016, 04:31:04 AM
I had the same thing happen to me on sport mode. Other people have suggested keeping it in eco mode for risky acceleration spaces just to reduce the free spin a bit.  $500 worth of new handlebars and misc repairs and shop time wiser, I guess.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Kocho on November 11, 2016, 08:30:57 AM
Two words: traction control :)

I've spun the rear a few times so far on acceleration in a straight line or coming out of a corner, causing mild tail spin. But  this was in decent dry conditions, I was alert for it happening, so not totally unexpected, and I was able to ease off the throttle and the bike fell in line quickly and without much drama. I can imagine on a slick surface I'd be doomed as I probably won't be quick enough to react.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Justin Andrews on November 11, 2016, 03:37:06 PM
Two words: traction control :)

I've spun the rear a few times so far on acceleration in a straight line or coming out of a corner, causing mild tail spin. But  this was in decent dry conditions, I was alert for it happening, so not totally unexpected, and I was able to ease off the throttle and the bike fell in line quickly and without much drama. I can imagine on a slick surface I'd be doomed as I probably won't be quick enough to react.

It's okay, coming off teaches you throttle control, the repair bill only helps to re-enforce the lesson... ;)
(I'm lucky I only raked up a £100 repair bill)
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Keith on November 11, 2016, 10:31:48 PM
I did a full 180 in a very slick muddy corner off road. It happened so fast I could not react, throttle was twisted more as I went down. The good news, no damage to me or the bike. Hand guards, drop bars, full riding gear, enduro mirror. I think even simple acceleration limiting might have prevented it. It wasn't a case of too much torque, just no traction and insane wheel spin.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on November 12, 2016, 02:00:32 AM
I did a full 180 in a very slick muddy corner off road. It happened so fast I could not react, throttle was twisted more as I went down. The good news, no damage to me or the bike. Hand guards, drop bars, full riding gear, enduro mirror.

Wow. Glad you're okay.

I think even simple acceleration limiting might have prevented it. It wasn't a case of too much torque, just no traction and insane wheel spin.

The thing about electric motors is, though, they can spin up very quickly when they lose traction. Reducing the torque ramp (Eco mode or otherwise) at least limits the downside and yields a little more feel for when traction is starting to disappear. We say that Eco mode reduces torque, but it just remaps the throttle to have a lower torque for a given throttle position or torque change per throttle adjustment (and as a result limits the top end). The point is that once traction is lost, Eco/reduced-rate modes both soften the spin-up and make it easier to recover.

Regarding traction control, I'm certainly in favor of it, but I've realistically figured out that the development cost for this will be fairly high, requiring very high frequency intervention in the motor controller (or is the throttle signal input enough? but it has to fail-safe to avoid losing throttle input signal entirely) on behalf of both ABS wheel speed sensors and a monitoring chip.

Anyway, it's understood for modern combustion engines but would require re-thinking and new engineering that'd cost a good bit of money and would divert engineers from other projects that we've also clamoured for: https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-traction-control-work (https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-traction-control-work)

Please use Eco mode or reduce your torque throttle ramp if you suspect your traction will be limited.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: MajorMajor on November 12, 2016, 02:37:27 AM
What's the minimum amount of torque that can be set by the app and will actually be used by the controller?
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: acacia1731 on November 12, 2016, 02:45:00 AM
Please use Eco mode or reduce your torque throttle ramp if you suspect your traction will be limited.

Easier said than done if you're using the bike off road.  Traction is rarely consistent and lower torque is not an option because you frequently need the max for unforeseen hills/obstacles.  It seems like traction control could offer a big advantage for such variable conditions, but it would have to be done well or it would just get turned off (like ABS typically is).
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Keith on November 12, 2016, 08:06:40 PM
I haven't given ECO mode a chance, maybe it would help. I have learned to be very careful with the throttle off road, breaking old two stroke habits takes some time. I did see that the Sevcon has settings to limit acceleration. I wonder if ECO mode changes them. I also would set the custom top speed far below 60 for off road if I could. 35-40mph is plenty fast in the woods. But I have never thought I wanted less torque.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Kocho on November 12, 2016, 09:44:25 PM
Eco mode makes the torque curve more gradual, so it requires a lot more wrist twist to get to the same level of torque that is available with only a slight movement in Sport. However, I,m pretty sure max torque is not available in Eco, the bike feels slower to accelerate at full throttle than in sport. It is certainly helful in wet street riding.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on November 14, 2016, 10:12:30 PM
Please use Eco mode or reduce your torque throttle ramp if you suspect your traction will be limited.

Easier said than done if you're using the bike off road.

Sure. I'm only talking about street safety, and this is a practical recommendation based on me riding year round in Seattle for three years.

I did just have a deeper thought about Sevcon configuration but will chew on that more.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Justin Andrews on November 25, 2016, 05:01:52 PM
For those people who like to track how quickly Zero send parts out.
Streetbike called me on the 22rd to tell me the parts had arrived (handlebar and wing mirror)  ;D
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Low On Cash on November 25, 2016, 06:14:14 PM
Glad you're OK and the bike survived - I did run into some rain here in Ga (first in many months) and found that Eco worked wonders to keep the speed and tire on the ground.

While it might not have helped you - I try to stay a bit ti the right or left of my lane because you'll find most motor oil and diesel closer to the center of the lane where the engines are located and car tire seldom ride to get it up.
Title: Re: CURSE You ICE
Post by: Low On Cash on November 25, 2016, 06:15:35 PM
Glad you're OK and the bike survived - I did run into some rain here in Ga (first in many months) and found that Eco worked wonders to keep the speed and tire on the ground.

While it might not have helped you - I try to stay a bit ti the right or left of my lane because you'll find most motor oil and diesel closer to the center of the lane where the engines are located and car tire seldom ride to get it up.