ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: tamjam on September 29, 2016, 09:08:29 PM
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I've always been intrigued by Zero motorcycles and finally had an opportunity to test ride one last weekend, and of course now I am completely hooked. I rode a 2016 DSR at my local dealer. Initially I kept it in ECO mode but quickly switched to SPORT once I got a feel for the throttle control. Loved it. Incredible sensation compared to riding my ICE bike (2011 Triumph Tiger 800). Now I am just trying to figure out whether to buy the DSR demo or a 2015 DS that's never been titled. The Tiger will need to go either way so the Zero will be my only bike.
The dealer worked up two quotes for me and the delta between the two is nearly $4k. I don't think he can do any better on either one. Both are eligible for the Federal tax credit as well as my local CA rebate. I haven't ridden the DS yet, but aside from less power and torque and slightly lower range (90 combined vs 95 combined @ 70mph highway), the only difference on the spec sheets between the two models and model years is the 660 amp controller vs the 420 amp controller. I am not sure I "need" the extra power the DSR offers, but it sure was fun.
I know that whether the extra power the DSR has is worth it is only something I can answer for myself, so I guess what I'm looking for input on is are there any real world differences between the two models or model years that I should be considering? Are the ranges that Zero lists on the spec sheets equally accurate for each model? It seems the changes between the two model years were evolutionary, not revolutionary.
Or do I wait and see what they come up with for 2017....
Thanks for your time everyone, and I hope to join your ranks soon with my own Zero.
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IMO, get the 2016 or, if you can wait, see what comes out for next year. How much of a deal are you getting over a retail 2016 DSR? Maybe you don't want to pass that up, no matter what 2017 offers. I suggest the 2016 because I read less about them on this forum, which is a good thing. You will want the significantly extra power and torque the DSR offers to wean you from the Triumph.
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4K is a big delta, but I think the new motor and controller in the '16 may be worth it. I have a 16 DSR and really love it. The older motors would get hot at highway speed in some cases (>70 in hot weather). The new motors seem to stay much cooler (in my case anyway). Hopefully a 15 DS owner can chime in. For me I picked the DSR since it "fit" my body and riding style better (more upright and a little wider than the DS).
Good luck in your decision. Either way, you'll like it!
Steve
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Thanks for the replies so far folks. I have read about the overheating issues but wasn't aware that the 2015 models experienced that, I thought it was mostly 2014 and earlier.
I can get the DSR for $13.4k plus TTL and "set-up fee" which brings it to $15.5k out the door. The DS is $11.6k out the door. Since this will be my only bike, one of my main concerns going electric is, of course, range....wondering if I can still do spirited weekend rides of 80 miles which often include stretches of 75mph freeway and some hills...so some of that $4k I "save" with the DS could be spent on a quick charger or two (I assume one or both can be mounted on the side racks?) so I can extend my rides if I am willing to stop for a while to top up the battery.
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I can get the DSR for $13.4k plus TTL and "set-up fee" which brings it to $15.5k out the door.
I paid $15k for '14 DS, and it doesn't qualify for any tax benefits. I would snatch a DSR for the same amount in no time :)
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Why not the 2016 DS? Much less of a "price hit."
I went with the 2016 "S" for the same reason. Also, check with your insurer because the cost of insuring an "R" model over the standard version was nearly TRIPLE here in New York State. I didn't find the extra torque worth both the initial purchase price AND the ongoing insurance cost.
YMMV. Some people just GOTTA have the most powerful version available.
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Also, check with your insurer because the cost of insuring an "R" model over the standard version was nearly TRIPLE here in New York State.
Wow, that's a good point.
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Someone said the DSR has a different riding position/with than the DS - probably a typo, as the two are exactly the same in those respects. The DS/R are wider and taller than the S/R.
The difference b/w DSR and a '15 DS is the controller and the motor (IPM on some of the '16 models). There was also a recent recall on certain '15 models, including the DS, so check if "yours" is subject to that recall as you don't want to get it then have it spent weeks in the shop. Or maybe you do, if they lower the price...
Where do you live? I have a '15 SR and I've only got close to overheating it once - I was riding on 90F day as fast as I could pretty much, maintaining around 80 with bursts to near max speed often. And it took a few miles to get the warning light to come on, but I did not get to experience the power loss as I slowed down to normal speeds, in the 65-75mph.
I've never had am issue in my daily commute. You will only see it in sustained near 80mph on very hot days. If your commute includes that, get the '16 with IPM (not all '16 bikes have that motor, only the ones with the large battery).
As for R vs. non-R, that's up to you. I like the R much better and the non-R feels underpowered to me. If you rode the R in Sport mode and liked it, you should try the non-R too to see if it satisfies you. That's a lot of money so spend it wisely ;)
Lastly, demo bikes have shorter warranty - check carefully with Zero. Their warranty starts not on the day you buy them, but on the day they got on the floor as a demo. Or something like that - mine is a demo and I did not get the full 2 year warranty but something closer to 1.5 years.
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Also, check with your insurer because the cost of insuring an "R" model over the standard version was nearly TRIPLE here in New York State. I didn't find the extra torque worth both the initial purchase price AND the ongoing insurance cost.
Good suggestion, thanks. Just ran the numbers on my Geico account and it's $704/yr for the DSR and $617 for the DS (vs $625 currently for my Tiger). In other words, not an issue. I don't feel I "need" to have the most powerful available, but the year-end deal available which knocks $2,600 off the MSRP makes it that much more compelling. Plus it was a whole lot of fun.
The difference b/w DSR and a '15 DS is the controller and the motor (IPM on some of the '16 models). There was also a recent recall on certain '15 models, including the DS, so check if "yours" is subject to that recall as you don't want to get it then have it spent weeks in the shop. Or maybe you do, if they lower the price...
I read about the latest recall notice and will make a point to check that this 2015 DS is not subject to it or has been addressed already.
Where do you live?
I live in the SF Bay Area, and my commute takes me from Marin into SF and back. Generally our temps are very mild but we do get the occasional heat wave. Good to know that you only experience the warning light only under the combination of high speeds and temps. I doubt I will encounter that issue often, if at all then.
Lastly, demo bikes have shorter warranty - check carefully with Zero. Their warranty starts not on the day you buy them, but on the day they got on the floor as a demo. Or something like that - mine is a demo and I did not get the full 2 year warranty but something closer to 1.5 years.
The DSR only has 89 miles on it and I believe the warranty has most if not all of its 2 years left. This dealer hasn't had it very long. The 2015 DS has one year of warranty left w/114 miles.
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Lastly, demo bikes have shorter warranty - check carefully with Zero. Their warranty starts not on the day you buy them, but on the day they got on the floor as a demo. Or something like that - mine is a demo and I did not get the full 2 year warranty but something closer to 1.5 years.
I bought a 2015 demo, and my understanding was that I still got the full warranty time period. Based on some quick reading, that seems to be the norm, as long as the dealer hadn't registered it yet. If they did register it, then you'd have a shorter warranty, and you wouldn't be able to get the tax credits.
Mileage warranties (as opposed to time-based) would get shortened based on the number of miles used up during the demo period.
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This is what I got from Zero about the warranty of my demo bike:
"The motorcycle was a Demo motorcycle owned by one of our dealers. The warranty started on xx/yy/2015, but goes for a period of 2 years and 90 days based on the shipment date."
I don't know what "owned by a dealer" means in my case. It has not been registered before the person from whom I bought it bought it from the dealer, as far as I know. That's what a "demo bike" usually means. If it has been registered, it is "used". If someone has a free carfax or similar service and wants to send me a report, I can give you the VIN to check the history to be sure.
Lastly, demo bikes have shorter warranty - check carefully with Zero. Their warranty starts not on the day you buy them, but on the day they got on the floor as a demo. Or something like that - mine is a demo and I did not get the full 2 year warranty but something closer to 1.5 years.
I bought a 2015 demo, and my understanding was that I still got the full warranty time period. Based on some quick reading, that seems to be the norm, as long as the dealer hadn't registered it yet. If they did register it, then you'd have a shorter warranty, and you wouldn't be able to get the tax credits.
Mileage warranties (as opposed to time-based) would get shortened based on the number of miles used up during the demo period.
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Both are great bikes. If you are ok with trading in and upgrading bikes every 2 years or so I would say take the deal on the 2015. You might actually want more power sooner, and upgrade as early as next year. If you like to keep bikes for 2-3 years or longer than I would definitely suggest getting the 2016 DSR. It has more power dense and energy dense batteries that handle heat better, as well as a motor that can do the same. Once you get used to the power curve of the Zero bikes, you will appreciate the additional power being available to get out of sticky situations where a driver near you starts to make erratic movements. I would always recommend an experienced rider get a bike with more power vs not for fun yes, but also as an insurance policy to have all the tools available to use at your disposal to be safe.
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I own a 2014 DS, which I love. I use it for my daily 50 mile commute and it does the job admirably. However, if you are already used to the power of a Tiger 800, I strongly recommend going for the DSR. You also want the DSR to avoid overheating issues with the motor. It's not a problem most of the time, but if you're out to have some fun and range isn't a factor, then you want the IPM motor.
The DS is still a fun bike to ride, but if I could afford it I'd have an SR our DSR in a heartbeat.
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All of the 2016s with the 13kWh battery pack have the IPM motor.
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Someone said the DSR has a different riding position/with than the DS - probably a typo, as the two are exactly the same in those respects. The DS/R are wider and taller than the S/R.
The difference b/w DSR and a '15 DS is the controller and the motor (IPM on some of the '16 models). There was also a recent recall on certain '15 models, including the DS, so check if "yours" is subject to that recall as you don't want to get it then have it spent weeks in the shop. Or maybe you do, if they lower the price...
Where do you live? I have a '15 SR and I've only got close to overheating it once - I was riding on 90F day as fast as I could pretty much, maintaining around 80 with bursts to near max speed often. And it took a few miles to get the warning light to come on, but I did not get to experience the power loss as I slowed down to normal speeds, in the 65-75mph.
I've never had am issue in my daily commute. You will only see it in sustained near 80mph on very hot days. If your commute includes that, get the '16 with IPM (not all '16 bikes have that motor, only the ones with the large battery).
As for R vs. non-R, that's up to you. I like the R much better and the non-R feels underpowered to me. If you rode the R in Sport mode and liked it, you should try the non-R too to see if it satisfies you. That's a lot of money so spend it wisely ;)
Lastly, demo bikes have shorter warranty - check carefully with Zero. Their warranty starts not on the day you buy them, but on the day they got on the floor as a demo. Or something like that - mine is a demo and I did not get the full 2 year warranty but something closer to 1.5 years.
You are right, sorry, I got mixed up between the DS and the SR. The DS and DSR do have the same riding position. My decision was between the '16 DSR and the '16 SR, I liked the DSR better.
Sorry for my confusion!
Steve
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Ended up going with the DSR. If the wife had allowed be to hang onto the Tiger as well, I probably would have gone with the DS, but I spent the extra money knowing it would be my only bike. Looking forward to many miles on it!
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Good choice. Once you've had the DSR for a while, you can get hold of a cheap second hand ICE bike for the longer trips. That's if you feel the need, of course.
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I'm fairly certain that all bikes sold as new are required to have a 2yr warranty by law, at least in CA.
Good choice going with the 2016, although I think I would have gone with the DS over the DSR if you don't need a performance bike.
If range is a concern the biggest controllable factors seem to be speed and riding position. So if you stick to 60-65 for long trips, and tuck as much as you can, you should be getting 125+ miles out of a charge (so ~65 miles each way, without charging). I lay on a tank bag I put on top of the false tank bag, and if you really want you can buy some tank grips (zero sells them now) and flip the handlebars (or buy new ones) to make it more comfortable.
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With fast charging, there is no need to have an ICE bike for long trips anymore. Also while riding slower and in a tuck is definitely good to extend range, it's not needed if you don't want to. Just find a charge station on your route, plug in, grab a drink and a quick bite, and keep going as long and as far as you want. Ben Rich and myself have gone over 500 miles a day on our Zero's. So going 200-300 miles is a piece of cake at any speed, especially with the 2016 bikes with the more energy dense battery.
Contact Hollywood Electrics about the full line of chargers they can get for your Zero: Delta Q Quiq, Elcon, ChargeTank and SuperCharger. A solution for everyone.
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With fast charging, there is no need to have an ICE bike for long trips anymore...Just find a charge station on your route, plug in, grab a drink and a quick bite, and keep going as long and as far as you want. Ben Rich and myself have gone over 500 miles a day on our Zero's. So going 200-300 miles is a piece of cake at any speed, especially with the 2016 bikes with the more energy dense battery... A solution for everyone.
Terry, as amazing as that all is, and it is amazing (although maybe a bit crazy too, but that never hurt!), what you and Ben do is not yet practical. You are still tied to just a few charging stations in most places (which could be in use or inoperative), and it still takes much longer to charge than to fill a tank of gas, and the charging equipment is still expensive.
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Well I will say it requires planning using an app on your phone, but if you time your charging with meals on the road, or bathroom stops, you really don't spend any time waiting to charge. It just takes learning how to do it. In remote areas it does mean your choice of restaurants is limited to those near the few charging stations, but I've never found it hard to go anywhere I want to go. And its so easy today. I've been all electric for almost 5 years now and there are an order of magnitude more charge stations than there were 5 years ago if not more. And it will only get better from here. Give it a try and see WoadRaider. I think you're thinking its a lot harder than it really is.
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I'm not saying you can't make it work (obviously you can) and I'm not even saying it's hard. I'm saying it's impractical for most people (because of high cost and added effort). Most people would rather use the ICE bike they already have (and are familiar with), for practical reasons. ICE bikes have virtually limitless versatility; there really aren't any fuel or range/destination concerns on most bikes, they can go anywhere, anytime, without any hassle. And given the current state of inexpensive gasoline..... Whereas you have to stop for hours at a time, at specific points in your journey's. I looked up charge stations just a few months ago, they are quite scarce in some places, so you really are tied to them, and are hoping that they won't be inoperable or otherwise inaccessible. I've also heard Ben talk about his journey's, I know that there are difficulties that wouldn't exist with an ICE bike. And then there is the cost... how much do the superchargers run? It's $750+ for an elcon, so I'm guessing it's 3k for a supercharger?
Personally, I'm not adverse to a little effort and expense (so long as it is comparable to the alternatives). I'll consider upgrading to a supercharger in a few years (assuming there's one compatible with the monolith upgraded 2013). But if gas is cheap (and looks like it will stay that way) I'd be better off, financially, getting a cheap ICE bike (or using a car or trike).
But there's also new technologies to consider... Batteries might not even be the future of electric transportation. There are folks working on super-capacitors that can store energy as we speak, and we already have spark plugs that convert gas powered vehicles into water powered.
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Once you get used to the power curve of the Zero bikes, you will appreciate the additional power being available to get out of sticky situations where a driver near you starts to make erratic movements. I would always recommend an experienced rider get a bike with more power vs not for fun yes, but also as an insurance policy to have all the tools available to use at your disposal to be safe.
^this a million times this!!!
I had a close call coming through Wolf Creek park on the I5. Long story short, pissing rain car bounce off the barrier, does a couple spins, I slow and avoid. The semi behind me does the same but his trailer starts to wag as he's coming up to me. That DSR power saved my bacon!
So tamjam, congratulations, good call on the DSR and welcome to the good life[emoji23]
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I'm not saying you can't make it work (obviously you can) and I'm not even saying it's hard. I'm saying it's impractical for most people (because of high cost and added effort). Most people would rather use the ICE bike they already have (and are familiar with), for practical reasons.
Hey friend!
I don't think you will find many people who will disagree with your points. And one day lithium - air or some other technology will make it an obvious choice economically and practically to ride an electric.
But I fear you might be missing the point. Our electric bikes aren't going to save the world. It not going to stop climate change! And frankly it's probably not for most people. Most people would just drive a car! Most people just ride their bikes on the weekend and when it's sunny out. Understand, Terry and Ben are NOT most people. In fact if you described me as like most people I would be insulted. Haha.
All we got is right now! And right now we got Zero and they make amazing bikes. We have people like Brandon that can allow us to do amazing things with our bikes. I get that economics is a barrier for most people. It's a barrier for me as well. But it comes back to the moment. How much is the perfect riding experience on an electric motorcycle worth to you? That moment where you can't stop grinning and you don't want the road to end!
I know what it's worth to me! And Terry knows what it worth to him. Everyone has a different answer. All I can say is for me, there isn't a gas bike that can replace my zero not for any purpose! And yes slow charging is a PITA but it's also part of the adventure. Just maybe not for you and that's OK friend! We don't have to like the same things:)
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