ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Shadow on September 24, 2016, 09:39:10 AM
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Looking for help making it possible to moto approximately Reno to SF Bay 10am arrival 9th-Oct. I've got a 2016 Zero DSR ZF13.0 and waiting for SuperCharger to ship since June I'm still rocking only the stock slow charger.
I've been on a 380mi slow charge trip before in a couple of days to the desert and back. That was rough enough. Having to bum around in Sacramento sneaking 110vac power and sleeping on the sidewalk for a whole day sounds awful, not to mention requesting an extra day off of work just to slow charge. Help me out anyone? Should I be asking Harlan for lead times and get an Elcon anyways?
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I have an Elcon in Oakland to lend, and could likely meet you in Sacramento for that. With the 3.8kW for a single Elcon, you should be able to make 250-300 miles per day: http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Usage#Strategy (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Usage#Strategy)
I do need to figure out my commitments for that weekend, though.
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I have an Elcon in Oakland to lend...
I do need to figure out my commitments for that weekend, though.
Brian: Awesome. I'll throw some $ your way for the trouble. Lets work out a time and I can make a trip out there to pick up / drop off whenever.
Anyone else along the way?
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I am in Walnut Creek which is kind of on the way. It's 15 or 20 miles east of Oakland. I've got 110 and 220 in the garage as well as a quick charger that Zero sent me as a gift a few months ago that I have never even opened. If I am home that day, and I probably will be, and you need a jolt to make the last leg you're welcome.
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I am in Walnut Creek which is kind of on the way. It's 15 or 20 miles east of Oakland. I've got 110 and 220 in the garage as well as a quick charger that Zero sent me as a gift a few months ago that I have never even opened. If I am home that day, and I probably will be, and you need a jolt to make the last leg you're welcome.
Thanks, I'll try to stop by at least to say hello. If I borrow Brian's Elcon, then range and charging times should be alright stopping in a combination of Truckee, Boreal Resort, Cisco, Colfax, Auburn, up to and including Auburn. From Auburn with a full charge, the range could last through Sacramento, Davis, and at least as far as Vacaville.
After Vacaville-ish for a second recharge, the final leg towards SF Bay would be less than 60 miles and I'll have power at the destination.
Even a couple of full recharging stops like this is a showstopper without carrying a fast charger :)
Anybody closer to Sacramento?
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An important appointment shifted from this Saturday to next Saturday, which means I can't make a round trip to Sacramento as planned, but my Elcon is available in Oakland or in the afternoon.
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An important appointment shifted from this Saturday to next Saturday, which means I can't make a round trip to Sacramento as planned, but my Elcon is available in Oakland or in the afternoon.
Copy. Thanks B.
I'm still on the mend from a workplace accident. Broken bone (left hand middle finger) and the pin gets pulled tomorrow. Doctors are awesome! Also it is rumoured possibly that the next batch of SuperCharger orders will be fulfilled this week. I'm keeping this trip open but the alternative is to drive a fossil burner. And... it's snowing in Tahoe yesterday / today so there's that to consider. ;)
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It were 19degF this morning in Truckee CA and ice fog making frost all over the windscreen and mirrors on the DSR, ha. Finger injury is stable, got the metal pin pulled yesterday and first attempt commuting again this morning was kind of a lab rat experience to see if I want to slow charge all the way to SF and back. Also happened to get vacation approved from work 6th-13th so... it looks like I might actually do the motorcycle trip thing even if it is slow charge.
So how to plan this? I should be getting a hotel or something 100mi (80mi?) away and sleep it off while the bike charges?
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Hum. Given the constraints, I could arrange to leave my Berkeley appointment at noon-ish, which would put me in Sacramento by/before 2pm. If you received an Elcon at that point, you'd have 4kW charge rate.
Is that worthwhile? You have 100 miles to travel to Sacramento in the first place.
Traveling with the onboard charger is sluggish; an Elcon is the minimum for this kind of thing.
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You're right with a little added slow charging the range would make it to Sac, actually I'm up for any day including tomorrow Thu /Fri/Sat. That's a 2hr connection for you B which is kind of nuts, though so much appreciated.
I'll keep an ear out might find some place in Sac to sleep and slow charge, then I know my bike will make Sacramento-Oakland no problem. It'd make more all around sense if I just figure my Sacramento thing out and hit you up for a quick charge in Oakland before SF Bay and maybe again on the return. Unless, you just want to go to Sacramento for some reason... I don't know, we could "test drive" a Model X (versus a Zero. naturally) at the Tesla sales outlet.
Hey at that point, anyone want to roll up to SF Bay with me for a street party Sun 9th 11am-11pm Indiana St & 19th St? I'll be working the entrance... it's the yearly wind-down party following that gigantic crazy artist festival in the Nevada desert.
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Yeah, I might cancel if the current hint that a really important delivery completes by then. Zero-related.
The overall trip time to/from Sacramento would be 5+ hours with charging but I haven't done it before either, so it's tempting, especially if avoiding highways for sightseeing.
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Sunday post-burn is tempting but I will be following STORM Eindhoven that day. :)
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My status changed quickly: the really important thing is arriving on Saturday, so the best I can offer is the Elcon once you're in the Bay Area.
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My status changed quickly: the really important thing is arriving on Saturday, so the best I can offer is the Elcon once you're in the Bay Area.
Thanks, that's still hugely helpful. I'll be in touch tomorrow Friday later when I figure out Sacramento.
Sunday post-burn is tempting but I will be following STORM Eindhoven that day. :)
Awesome!
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First experience ever with ChargePoint rolling in to the Roseville CA station at 0% and it trips off with Ground Fault on the wall plug. Bummer. I did manage to loiter at a whole foods and later a Home Depot long enough charging on exterior outlets to make it to a ChargePoint that worked great.
Currently at a 'Dennys' diner in Fairfield attempting to order everything on the menu; the bike is slow charging from the automated irrigation timer circuit. On track to make it down to MichaelJohn's and meet up with BTR to borrow an Elcon.
Long distance EV travel sucks without at least L2 charging. Still fun though.
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Well, at least I lent him the Elcon this morning!
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I had similar issues with my 2012 XU with Chargepoint.
It would work one time, then not the next. It almost
seemed like it had to do with the time of day.
I don't think that I have had any issues with
my FX.
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A ground fault on the wall plug outlet is usually fixable by avoiding connecting the grounding prong from a Zero, using a cheater plug or by removing the ground prong.
The wiki covers this issue: http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger)
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Well, at least I lent him the Elcon this morning!
I've got the Elcon here purring away like a kitten at 3.6kW thanks Brian! I'm grumpy about lack of sleep from unmanageable planning that happens when slow charging in unfamiliar territory. After borrowing the Elcon from ya I found a nail in the rear tire.
Getting the rear tire replaced at Contra Costa Powersports was something of a bizarre experience. They were super busy by noon and with one last tire in stock that could fit did graciously offer to queue up my service order.
I requested the bike be charging while waiting and so it was plugged in for a normal slow charge. While chatting the two Charge Tank installs done by the shop were mentioned, so I asked about fast charge with the Elcon while I waited and was told it's not possible. I took a nap on the couch and after 4-5 hours the bike was said to be ready, so I paid the $224 invoice and went to pick it up.
My bike had not been worked on. The tire I paid for was mistakenly installed on another customer's bike. I was asked to wait while they took the tire(s) off both bikes and to do the work I had paid for.
While waiting I chatted with sales guy and picked out a few accessories and was given about $10 discount without asking. The sales staff was very courteous and affable, and I never asked to pay less or be given a discount.
After some more time and the shop was closing for the day service writer said my bike was making loud noises and wanted to ask me if that was normal. Of course that's not normal! I inspected the bike and found the belt to be very much over-tightened. It was well past closing and the technicians had since left. I was stuck with an unrideable bike but at least the tire I paid for had been installed on my bike.
At Contra Costa, they don't have a belt tension gauge for the Zero because they've "changed at least 40 tires on Zeroes and you're supposed to make the belt as tight as you possibly can". Does the Zero factory really tell dealers this?
So after some back-and-forth with the service writer who stayed over an hour past closing time to help me, I negotiated that we get the belt tensioned where I felt comfortable, to get the axle aligned and not just "looks okay from a distance", and to use a torque wrench on the axle nut. I was told that using a torque wrench was " antique" / "archaic" when commenting that I liked the torque wrench the guy found - it's the same sort of Precision Instruments tool I own at home. Before asking for a torque wrench the axle nut was as tight as possible using a large breaker bar and then some more.
Good people at this shop, horrible timing for me trying to get my bike done right at the "#2 Zero dealership". Given how busy they were I do appreciate that my bike was done at all (well, after I pointed out it was never worked on the first time).
I made it to a park in SF and took a dirt nap. Now I'm charging with the Elcon.
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That is a bizarre dealer interaction, for sure. I didn't get any weirdness having them (literally the same service team) setting my belt tension after they replaced my rear tire (I wanted a street-touring tire now that mine are low on tread). I confirmed it myself (partly because I feel like I need to practice using the gauge). That service department does get slammed sometimes mid-morning; they could just have been "at wit's end" for other reasons.
I'm sorry I wasn't able to help more; this weekend was really busy for me and I've had a lot on my plate in general. But at least you have the Elcon for a while! You should be able to traverse that SF-Reno home leg in a single day easily now. Just think about your charge rate as about 25-30 miles of range recovery per hour of charge so you can manage your schedule.
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At Contra Costa, they don't have a belt tension gauge for the Zero because they've "changed at least 40 tires on Zeroes and you're supposed to make the belt as tight as you possibly can". Does the Zero factory really tell dealers this?
Obviously not, they must have been bullshitting you, or (if we want to give them the most favorable view/benefit of the doubt) thinking of another bike that is like that for some reason (maybe there's a bike with a design so that you can't over tighten?). Belts get tighter from use, not looser, so it's obviously stupid to tighten the belt as much as you can. It would be like installing a chain so that it's as loose as it can be.
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@BrianTRice lending out the Elcon is plenty generous, I went for adventure and I got exactly that! :)
Rolled into Citrus Heights a couple of hours ago as the bike at 00% SoC was limiting torque and top speed. The Zero app read 01% SoC and 92V. The EV station output seems right around 3.6kW. *edit* max 4kW rate, 3h16m charge time to 85% (100%?) when power tapers off fully. *edit2* Plugged in for 03 hrs 16 mins / Energy added 11.73 kWh, according to the receipt.
I'll have a look tomorrow at all the bolts I can find. Soon I'm going to bring the bike to my dealership in Reno for a full inspection. "Tighten it by feel" aka 1000lb-ft meme is vomit-worthy to hear repeated at the three Zero dealerships I've interacted with. Until then I am just enjoying being on an adventure. :)
*edit3* I'm home again trip completed. 4kW charge rate is not that great really, it needs to be more. 1kW charge rate is just super dumb; don't do like I do!
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I'm home again trip completed. 4kW charge rate is not that great really, it needs to be more. 1kW charge rate is just super dumb; don't do like I do!
Congrats on your first electric road trip Shadow!
Hey you have to learn somehow, lol!
For a short day trip of ~250 miles, a single J plug and 6-8 kW charger is good
For a small road trip of ~400 miles/day I would say 2 J plugs and 14 kW should be considered a minimum.
For longer trips or touring (we aren't there yet) where some days might be 400, some might be 800 miles or more, I would eventually recommend a modular system where you can add additional chargers for the trip. There are routes from Vancouver Canada to San Diego along the west coast, and Montreal to Miami along the east coast where there are 6 J plugs available over 50% of the time and 4 J plugs in all but a few locations for the rest.
Since the number of charge stations going in is increasing every day, this will only become better as time goes on. A good touring rate to me would be 36 kW or using 6 J plugs at 6 kW. This would be if an 18 kW battery can be charged at a 2C charge rate. We might be years away from this still, but it's something to shoot for as someone who has gone 1000 miles in a single day on my 2012 Vetter Zero, I can tell you that with 36 kW you can "blast and go" which is appealing.
Blast and go means you can stop, plug in the 6 plugs real quick, take off your helmet, gloves, and jacket and lock them in your top case (you always plug in first and unplug last) and walk to the bathroom, grab a drink, walk back, gear up and unplug. So your charge time to regain 40-50% of your battery might be 12-15 minutes. This is highly desired for stops between meals. Meal stops will be 30-60 minutes and using only 2 or 3 J plugs is fine for those 2 stops each day.
The key is to have enough battery capacity and the aerodynamics that the battery can cool while riding from its very low C rate of discharge. Then you blast the battery hard at 2C where it would take about 15 minutes to go from 35 Celsius to 50 Celsius and where the chargers would be sized to go from 25 Celsius to 70 Celsius in that same 15 minute time frame. You could oversize and over design the charger to run at 7 kW continuous or 10 hours, but that is really silly. If the accessory charger needs to run longer than 15 minutes, just have a thermal strategy that reduces power output over 70 degrees C. It would be better to make the charger half the size and carry twice as many.
Anyway the idea that the battery can cool 10 degrees C and the charger can cool 50 degrees C while riding for an hour or so, and then heat up within the limits to allow max charging for 12-15 minutes without either hitting its thermal cutback limits. If you have to charge for longer that's ok. But either the battery will tell the chargers to cut back power at 120F/50C or the chargers will reduce power at 70C first, or ideally both at almost exactly the same time. Then you know you got it right.
But for this the aerodynamics have to improve, so at 70 mph the battery can actually cool faster. Right now pulling 15 kW out of a 10 kWh pack is a 1.5C discharge and the battery can't cool and actually heats up slightly. We need aerodynamics to allow 6 kW at 70 mph with an 18 kWh pack for a 0.3 C discharge which will allow cooling while riding, and if the internal resistance of the cells can continue to go down, the cooling only improves, as well as less heating from the lower impedance while charging rapidly.
With this strategy I see 1500 mile/2400 km days being possible in 24 hours, or more practical would be 500 mile trips in the same time you would likely do it on a gas bike because you are never waiting to charge. A good metric will be the 400 mile San Francisco to Los Angeles trip in about 6 hours which is what it takes gas bikes that ride at about 80 mph and have about 2 or 3 12-15 minute stops and 1 30 minute stop for lunch. There is no need to be able to charge any faster than this as this is the behavior from most riders where they aren't limited by anything. So it is a good metric to shoot for to be considered an equal choice for a road trip. The charging locations will improve on their own to eventually be everywhere you would want to stop along a highway to eat, pee, take a break.
Lets just say all this is many many years away, but I like where it's going as it all makes sense and works very well together. Long distance touring on an electric will make much more sense than long distance touring on a gas bike eventually. Because the cost of fuel per mile will be a lot less, and the maintenance needs will not interfere with the trip saving time and money while touring. And with battery costs slowly but surely coming down each year, the premium to own an electric motorcycle will narrow and make more financial sense overall for everyone.
For now though, a good goal to shoot for would be a dual J plug setup like Brian Rice, Ben Rich, myself, Luke Workman and others are seeing is the logical way to go to make the Zero useful to pretty much go anywhere you want within about 500 miles a day. For it being 2016 and Zero not even existing more than 10 years ago this is pretty darn good! Just imagine where we will be by 2026! My guess is something fairly close to what I described above except you would pull from one power source instead of 6.
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Great post Terry.
For those in regions that have adopted 3 phase Mennekes stations like Europe, they are in the fortunate position to have 22kW and even 43kW AC stations and don't need to have 2 or more stations available to charge just one bike.
With this amount of power, fast charging of motorcycles can be done in the normal break times required for comfortable motorcycle touring.
The stock Zero SR/S/DSR/DS tank area already include enough space for 12-18kW of charger/rectifiers and with the recent increase of the Farasis cells to 32A we'll see the 2018 if not the 2017 Zeros at the mid to upper end of that amount of capacity i.e. 14-17kWh. So two hours highway riding with a one hour break should be achievable by the end of 2017 with a stock Zero and a custom/aftermarket charger setup.
Exciting times!
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I'm home again trip completed. 4kW charge rate is not that great really, it needs to be more. 1kW charge rate is just super dumb; don't do like I do!
Congrats on your first electric road trip Shadow!
Hey you have to learn somehow, lol!
For a short day trip of ~250 miles, a single J plug and 6-8 kW charger is good
For a small road trip of ~400 miles/day I would say 2 J plugs and 14 kW should be considered a minimum.
For longer trips or touring (we aren't there yet) where some days might be 400, some might be 800 miles or more, I would eventually recommend a modular system where you can add additional chargers for the trip. There are routes from Vancouver Canada to San Diego along the west coast, and Montreal to Miami along the east coast where there are 6 J plugs available over 50% of the time and 4 J plugs in all but a few locations for the rest.
Since the number of charge stations going in is increasing every day, this will only become better as time goes on. A good touring rate to me would be 36 kW or using 6 J plugs at 6 kW. This would be if an 18 kW battery can be charged at a 2C charge rate. We might be years away from this still, but it's something to shoot for as someone who has gone 1000 miles in a single day on my 2012 Vetter Zero, I can tell you that with 36 kW you can "blast and go" which is appealing.
Blast and go means you can stop, plug in the 6 plugs real quick, take off your helmet, gloves, and jacket and lock them in your top case (you always plug in first and unplug last) and walk to the bathroom, grab a drink, walk back, gear up and unplug. So your charge time to regain 40-50% of your battery might be 12-15 minutes. This is highly desired for stops between meals. Meal stops will be 30-60 minutes and using only 2 or 3 J plugs is fine for those 2 stops each day.
The key is to have enough battery capacity and the aerodynamics that the battery can cool while riding from its very low C rate of discharge. Then you blast the battery hard at 2C where it would take about 15 minutes to go from 35 Celsius to 50 Celsius and where the chargers would be sized to go from 25 Celsius to 70 Celsius in that same 15 minute time frame. You could oversize and over design the charger to run at 7 kW continuous or 10 hours, but that is really silly. If the accessory charger needs to run longer than 15 minutes, just have a thermal strategy that reduces power output over 70 degrees C. It would be better to make the charger half the size and carry twice as many.
Anyway the idea that the battery can cool 10 degrees C and the charger can cool 50 degrees C while riding for an hour or so, and then heat up within the limits to allow max charging for 12-15 minutes without either hitting its thermal cutback limits. If you have to charge for longer that's ok. But either the battery will tell the chargers to cut back power at 120F/50C or the chargers will reduce power at 70C first, or ideally both at almost exactly the same time. Then you know you got it right.
But for this the aerodynamics have to improve, so at 70 mph the battery can actually cool faster. Right now pulling 15 kW out of a 10 kWh pack is a 1.5C discharge and the battery can't cool and actually heats up slightly. We need aerodynamics to allow 6 kW at 70 mph with an 18 kWh pack for a 0.3 C discharge which will allow cooling while riding, and if the internal resistance of the cells can continue to go down, the cooling only improves, as well as less heating from the lower impedance while charging rapidly.
With this strategy I see 1500 mile/2400 km days being possible in 24 hours, or more practical would be 500 mile trips in the same time you would likely do it on a gas bike because you are never waiting to charge. A good metric will be the 400 mile San Francisco to Los Angeles trip in about 6 hours which is what it takes gas bikes that ride at about 80 mph and have about 2 or 3 12-15 minute stops and 1 30 minute stop for lunch. There is no need to be able to charge any faster than this as this is the behavior from most riders where they aren't limited by anything. So it is a good metric to shoot for to be considered an equal choice for a road trip. The charging locations will improve on their own to eventually be everywhere you would want to stop along a highway to eat, pee, take a break.
Lets just say all this is many many years away, but I like where it's going as it all makes sense and works very well together. Long distance touring on an electric will make much more sense than long distance touring on a gas bike eventually. Because the cost of fuel per mile will be a lot less, and the maintenance needs will not interfere with the trip saving time and money while touring. And with battery costs slowly but surely coming down each year, the premium to own an electric motorcycle will narrow and make more financial sense overall for everyone.
For now though, a good goal to shoot for would be a dual J plug setup like Brian Rice, Ben Rich, myself, Luke Workman and others are seeing is the logical way to go to make the Zero useful to pretty much go anywhere you want within about 500 miles a day. For it being 2016 and Zero not even existing more than 10 years ago this is pretty darn good! Just imagine where we will be by 2026! My guess is something fairly close to what I described above except you would pull from one power source instead of 6.
This is a great write up. I'll try to digest and summarize it later once I'm back from vacation...
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It's a lot of fun taking a motorcycle on a long trip. I knew that already from my hapless jaunt through the desert on July 4th (and randomly finding an RV generator with permission to charge overnight). I was fortunate or lucky, else I might still be out there! This trip to SF Bay marks a first for me using EV charging infrastructure and not just sneaking around behind service stations and vending machines or the randomly convenient party bus generator set.
@Electric Terry: Terrific write-up. That one Elcon might be what I consider a slow and bare-minimum touring charge setup, but didn't you present and mention toting along nine(!?) of them? I can't imagine. Already digiNow has been paid on my order for a Supercharger, just haven't heard any update about my order in a solid two months.
I could afford and would be willing to strap multiple (15kW?) Supercharger units on the bike, but I must not become a fool waiting forever, and I've set a date November 1st to take delivery or begin on a refund and alternative plan. A Charge Tank plus an Elcon would allow for an anemic (better than nothing?) total 6kW rate. The plan of last resort would be to abandon fast charging and touring on the Zero, since I'm all lined up anyways for a Tesla Model 3. My personal goal in getting the Zero is an EV commuter that I pay cash for and take delivery within one month instead of waiting years for the Tesla or on a wait list for a Nissan Leaf. The Zero fulfills that job beautifully and I don't think its design (as mentioned) is in any form purpose built for touring. Until I get touring / long distance solved with an EV then I just have to keep my oil addiction alive to fuel the Subaru.
Anyways the Zero is incredible as-is and I'm open to any EV you can pay cash for and take delivery on :) I hear this category includes the Energica Evo hmm? ;)
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Edit...
Spoke to Brando tonight
He will be making an announcement soon...
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Shadow, yes he Energica Eva is available now, has CCS charging and is considerably more expensive than a Zero. Hopefully your supercharger gets there soon. Touring on a zero is indeed wonderful!
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Edit...
Spoke to Brando tonight
He will be making an announcement soon...
\o/
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By the way I am jealous. 😂 You got an Elcon! Slow charging ain't fun when riding down the west coast but it sure is an adventure!
I wanted to do it so I know full well how to travel pre-diginow. I can say with confidence, it's not that bad. However, the diginow can't come soon enough😂
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Last comment I'll make to this thread since the trip being done and all. Brandon / digiNow has gotten in touch, and assures me a refund is understandable if that's what I want to do. I'm going to hold out a while longer presuming I still qualify for the US Federal and California state tax incentives on charging station equipment.
Sorry @BrianTRice I'm going to put that Elcon through more adventures until you pry it from my hands ha-ha 8)