ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Richard230 on August 30, 2016, 04:30:15 AM
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California legislators are falling all over themselves trying to come up with additional taxes to fund road repairs and maintenance in the state. Some legislators feel that electric vehicles are getting a free ride and not paying their fair share of gas taxes. Rather than increase our 36 cent per mile state tax (plus 7.5% sales tax, I believe), one legislator has introduced a bill to charge all electric vehicles a flat $165 - on top of the yearly registration fee, which is based upon the initial price of the vehicle, to fund road improvements. Naturally there appears to be no reduced fee being contemplated for electric motorcycles. This would be in addition to the $200 yearly registration fee that I pay for my Zero (as an example).
I have been riding my Zero about 4000 miles a year, which is about the same mileage that I average for my other 5 IC motorcycles. Their gas mileage ranges from 45 mpg to 70 mpg. Just to use a 50 mpg number, that would mean that I am paying about $29 per year in road taxes (I actually am paying less) to operate one of my IC motorcycles for 4K miles. So, needless to say, I am not in favor of being charged $165 a year to ride my Zero 4000 miles.
Apparently the legislator floating this funding balloon assumes that every EV owner drives an expensive Tesla and can afford to pay a generous contribution toward fixing our roads. If this proposal becomes law, it is not going to do anything to increase electric motorcycle sales, especially if the ultimate plan by manufacturers is to reduce the initial cost to make electric motorcycles more affordable to the general public. :(
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Why not just tax brakes and tires? ALL vehicles use those and it would spread it out more fairly. Or does that make too much sense??
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Paying to make the roads less rough would probably reduce my eventual bill on tire wear, so I'm okay with a tradeoff. But that is too high a proposal.
Right now I'm racking up 1200 miles per month just commuting back and forth on I-880, so that's 14k miles per year in CA without trips (and there are trips!). But I'm riding three motorcycles and no cars, which would make this tax really painful for me.
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Most road damage models don't acknowledge an ESAL (Equivalent Single Axle Load) value for motorcycles at all.
So contribution to road damage as a factor for contribution for repairs should result in no charges for motorcycles.
Legislators are only selectively "good at math".
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It seems like many states are looking into this. Most if not all appear to be using an exorbitant flat fee. It is very simple. Figure out what ever the CAFE standard is for MPG
then charge by miles driven. Every year when my ICE vehicles get a smog check, the DMV is apprised of my miles since last test.
Of course a tax for miles driven would be FAIR, so, probably not a consideration. Some of the RED states are using it as a punitive measure for being GREEN.
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When I read statements by legislators in the newspaper, it seems to me like they resent all electric vehicle owners because they can afford these "expensive" vehicles and that is not fair to the poor immigrants that have to get around while driving clapped-out 1990's Honda Civics that have to burn expensive gasoline. Therefore the legislators appear to feel that EV owners should be taxed at a higher rate as they apparently have too much money to spend on frivolous toys - and then the legislator drives off in their 400 hp, $50K, SUV gas hog. ::)
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We use convicts to pave our roads. It's cheaper and gets them out of the cage for a while. Road paving has been a corrupt over priced joke for decades. Do it cheaper don't charge me extra.
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North Carolina charges a $100.00 a year EV fee when you get your registration renewed. Welcome to the club.
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I can see a couple issues with taxing tires/brakes. One, it would encourage folks to defer purchasing new tires/brakes. That would be a safety issue for everyone. Second, it would have to be a rather large tax to match what is raised through fuel taxes. Fuel taxes are easy because folks pay a little at a time, many times. Tires/brakes last long enough that the tax would easily be hundreds of dollars.
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Yeah, it's also too easy to cross into the next State that DOESN'T tax brakes/tires and buy them there.
Here in NYS when your vehicle is inspected (which is an annual thing), they do record your odometer reading. Right now they don't do anything with that information, but I could see it becoming a potential piece of data for taxation, just as long as it's done fairly. As someone already pointed out, my 400lbs Zero isn't doing NEARLY as much damage to the road surface as a two-ton Tesla...
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Another reason that i love Texas. $30 a year per motorcycle no differentiation in EV's here.
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Another reason that i love Texas. $30 a year per motorcycle no differentiation in EV's here.
We're not talking about right now. We're talking about what MAY be coming up in the future... Infrastructure repairs aren't free, they have to be funded SOMEHOW. The only other solution would be to make EVERY road a toll road...
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Another reason that i love Texas. $30 a year per motorcycle no differentiation in EV's here.
We're not talking about right now. We're talking about what MAY be coming up in the future... Infrastructure repairs aren't free, they have to be funded SOMEHOW. The only other solution would be to make EVERY road a toll road...
I don't mind paying for road repairs, I just want a fair system that doesn't charge my motorcycles the same as a vehicle weighing 10 times as much, or traveling 10 times further in a year.
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I don't mind paying for road repairs, I just want a fair system that doesn't charge my motorcycles the same as a vehicle weighing 10 times as much, or traveling 10 times further in a year.
I think most people agree with that, and that was the logic behind a fuel tax. Larger vehicles consume more fuel, as do vehicles that put on more mileage, so the more wear you put on the roads, the more you're paying for the upkeep. Pretty elegant solution, actually. It's only a first-order approximation, but that's a lot better than the government does in many areas.
Us EV drivers do throw a monkey wrench into that elegant solution, and it's hard to know where to make it up. I guess I'm thinking the most equitable way would be to add a surcharge to the registration fee for EVs. It would be painful paying it all in a lump sum, but perhaps they could offer a pre-payment plan or something. It could be based on vehicle weight, so a Tesla driver would pay more than we would for our much lighter vehicles, which are much easier on the roads. It wouldn't account for mileage, so it would be biased against low-mileage riders in favor of people like Ben and Terry, but at least it's something.
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I don't mind paying for road repairs, I just want a fair system that doesn't charge my motorcycles the same as a vehicle weighing 10 times as much, or traveling 10 times further in a year.
I think most people agree with that, and that was the logic behind a fuel tax. Larger vehicles consume more fuel, as do vehicles that put on more mileage, so the more wear you put on the roads, the more you're paying for the upkeep. Pretty elegant solution, actually. It's only a first-order approximation, but that's a lot better than the government does in many areas.
Us EV drivers do throw a monkey wrench into that elegant solution, and it's hard to know where to make it up. I guess I'm thinking the most equitable way would be to add a surcharge to the registration fee for EVs. It would be painful paying it all in a lump sum, but perhaps they could offer a pre-payment plan or something. It could be based on vehicle weight, so a Tesla driver would pay more than we would for our much lighter vehicles, which are much easier on the roads. It wouldn't account for mileage, so it would be biased against low-mileage riders in favor of people like Ben and Terry, but at least it's something.
I think our legislators just prefer a simpler system that doesn't consider motorcycles, such as the way we get charged for crossing toll bridges and for entering state parks. >:(
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I think most people agree with that, and that was the logic behind a fuel tax. Larger vehicles consume more fuel, as do vehicles that put on more mileage, so the more wear you put on the roads, the more you're paying for the upkeep. Pretty elegant solution, actually. It's only a first-order approximation, but that's a lot better than the government does in many areas.
Except loaded trucks are well documented to do roughly 10,000 times as much damage as a car and so these 11% of the vehicles account for 98% of the road wear. Yet the trucking industry only pays 35% of of the road taxes. So the current imbalance in fuel taxes is not an elegant solution, just an elegant diversion, typical of the government in most areas. Diesel cars also pay this higher fuel tax, another inequity unadjusted in the minds of government.
Motorcycles only do an imperceptible amount of road wear, and should really be exempt from fuel road taxes based on the road wear model. Like they have non-road use diesel (which actually damages roads as little as a motorcycle when trucks cart it around for their reefers), they should have tax exempt motorcycle gasoline. BUT they don't because politician's math skills are limited to fund raising and gerrymandering - not equity.
Perhaps just a sore spot for me. But I'm not thrilled by an EV road tax.
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I'm somewhat willing to pay, just not based on mileage. If you do the calculations of gas tax per mile driven as compared to a flat rate for driving an EV, you have to drive A LOT in order to make most of those flat rates reasonable.
People who drive less, but a lot in cities would pay much more than is reasonable and should be encouraged to drive an EV, not discouraged.
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Except loaded trucks are well documented to do roughly 10,000 times as much damage as a car and so these 11% of the vehicles account for 98% of the road wear. Yet the trucking industry only pays 35% of of the road taxes. So the current imbalance in fuel taxes is not an elegant solution, just an elegant diversion, typical of the government in most areas. Diesel cars also pay this higher fuel tax, another inequity unadjusted in the minds of government.
Motorcycles only do an imperceptible amount of road wear, and should really be exempt from fuel road taxes based on the road wear model. Like they have non-road use diesel (which actually damages roads as little as a motorcycle when trucks cart it around for their reefers), they should have tax exempt motorcycle gasoline. BUT they don't because politician's math skills are limited to fund raising and gerrymandering - not equity.
Perhaps just a sore spot for me. But I'm not thrilled by an EV road tax.
The whole idea of a EV road tax is dazzling to me, on the other hand you get rebates when buying but then they charge the lot back?
Here road tax is calculated by weight and fuel type. Diesel vehicles generally travel more kilometres per year so their tax is higher, EV's are exempt for now. Nice and simple.
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Bureaucrats hate "simple". ::) It just "goes against the grain". ;)
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Legislators in Michigan have been discussing an annual fee for electric vehicles and hybrids to help make up for the lack of road funds also. The proposed price isn't bad, $75 for anything under 8,000 lbs and $200 for anything over, but what it seems to come down to is the attitude that owners of these vehicles are "cheating" the system. I'll happily pay the $75 fee knowing that it's more than made up for in never needing gas, but don't paint me as a schemer for trying to leave less of a footprint on the environment. The automakers who build these vehicles here have spoken out against the fee out of fear that it will deter consumers from purchasing their products. I guess we shall have to wait and see how it turns out.
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I don't mind paying a fee for a road tax since we don't pay gas tax....as long as they actually use it to build and maintain roads. Over the last 5-6 years the roads in the US have gotten better but there is still a lot of work to do and then keep up with the maintenance. If the trend continues I don't mind paying.
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I don't mind paying a fee for a road tax since we don't pay gas tax....as long as they actually use it to build and maintain roads. Over the last 5-6 years the roads in the US have gotten better but there is still a lot of work to do and then keep up with the maintenance. If the trend continues I don't mind paying.
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That is the problem that California has with its gas tax. The state has a reputation for using money collected for road maintenance for other things, such as dealing with social issues and other legislative pet projects, instead of using the funds to maintain roads. Since they always want to "tax the guy behind the tree", instead of raising fuel taxes (which haven't been raised for many years) they want to tax electric vehicle owners because they all drive Teslas and can afford a new tax. ::) Plus there are not all that many EV owners yet, so that cuts down on the number of complaints about a new tax that the legislators receive. :(
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Plus there are not all that many EV owners yet, so that cuts down on the number of complaints about a new tax that the legislators receive. :(
Leave it to the genius legislators to pull shenanigans to try to compensate for misspending and then implement a tax that's high enough to hurt at the individual level but small enough that it does almost nothing at the group level to close the budget gap since, as you point out, there aren't that many EV owners yet.
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As stated above, there aren't that many EV owners YET. That is why the have to get it in place now.
I have said previously that I have no problem paying my fair share. If I have a 300 lb. motorcycle
that is on the street for less than 10,000 miles a year, I should not have to pay $200.
Weight and / or miles driven easy and fair. My SV weighs more and while not really doing any damage
to the roads, would do more than my FX. Gas tax in Las Vegas is .24 per gallon. I get about 65 mpg
on it. If we figured 50 mpg, and 10,000 miles, my annual tax would be under $50. Plus, if my FX
falls over, there is no gasoline to spill and damage the road.
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As stated above, there aren't that many EV owners YET. That is why the have to get it in place now.
I have said previously that I have no problem paying my fair share. If I have a 300 lb. motorcycle
that is on the street for less than 10,000 miles a year, I should not have to pay $200.
Weight and / or miles driven easy and fair. My SV weighs more and while not really doing any damage
to the roads, would do more than my FX. Gas tax in Las Vegas is .24 per gallon. I get about 65 mpg
on it. If we figured 50 mpg, and 10,000 miles, my annual tax would be under $50. Plus, if my FX
falls over, there is no gasoline to spill and damage the road.
But, if your FX gets run over and catches on fire, it will make the national news. :o However, if the same thing happens to your SV, no one will notice. ::) It will just be another IC vehicle fire that needs to be pushed aside into the gutter on the freeway so that the commuters can get by. ;)
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True, especially when they attempt to douse it with water.