ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: NEW2elec on July 06, 2016, 09:45:05 PM
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They may never be sold to the public but what are some of the stats and feel of riding a FXS with a SR motor? Is it like hoping on the back of a cheetah? Does it wheelie like a fat man on a kids bike? If you have a little mustard on your chin from a hot dog will the torque wipe it off for you?
I wish the road and weather was better for yall at Pike's Peak but still great showing for the electric bikes, and good press.
Keep those Skunk Works projects coming.
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LMAO
Needs the sr controller to actually be fast, the sr motor is just half of it....
No one even noticed the piles peak bikes battery; thats the more important part;
Unfortunantly Zero doesnt beleive in making fast bikes....
And well it wouldnt be profitable, but
Maybe once the batteries have reached 3.7 kwhs each and the fxs is 8.4 kwhs they will do the contoller and motor swap that the bike needs IMO until then... keep dreaming they save it for people like luke, ryan, arlin, stephan (doctorbass),
I guess they fail to relize that having a bike like that (sr powerplant) in r&d for 3 years plus on/with the smaller batteries might be beneficial to their knowleage of what their batteries can ACTUALLY take....
Hint hint mr drake...... Maybe you will see this and sudgest a size 6 bike :)
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I have to say I meant this to be in the race section and put it in the news section by mistake. I figured he put the SR motor and controller and best batteries he could get for the Pikes Peak bike.
Set the thing up to about drain the batteries in that 12 mile run.
I know most of this is tongue in cheek but a fast Zero is what people want.
I would be amazed if the DSR and SR sales don't blow away the DS and S sales in sheer numbers not just money.
If they can get the FX and FXS to beat the gas equivalents that could be the game changer as the electric platform is soooo superior for off road use being quieter and no hot exhaust sparks setting the fields on fire.
Harlan is a busy man but I thought I'd see if I could squeeze some info on his race bike out of him.
If not still great job at Pikes Peak.
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They may never be sold to the public but what are some of the stats and feel of riding a FXS with a SR motor? Is it like hoping on the back of a cheetah? Does it wheelie like a fat man on a kids bike? If you have a little mustard on your chin from a hot dog will the torque wipe it off for you?
I wish the road and weather was better for yall at Pike's Peak but still great showing for the electric bikes, and good press.
Keep those Skunk Works projects coming.
Thanks for posting! You can read my race report here: Pikes Peak Race Report (https://hollywoodelectrics.com/featured/race-report-ppihc-2016/)
I've included a bunch of pics and some video in the link.
I'll give you a little more technical insight since I'm sure that's what many of you come here for. Our approach was to keep the bike as light as possible and if you take a look at our practice runs, it was working out pretty well. Mark and Marcel were among the fastest bikes up the mountain, only Don Canet and a few liter bikes, beating us. Not bad for a couple of rookies! With the very limited practice we are allowed, there no doubt that a few years of experience goes a long way at Pikes Peak.
The trick with an electric race bike is sustained performance for the duration of the race. Our system was pretty well balanced allowing the motor, controller and batteries to all work together and hopefully arrive at the top with little battery in about 10 minutes. This would mean we'd be operating at about a 6C discharge, with 6.5kWh of battery, that's almost 40kW of power average. Although an SR controller would make the bikes a lot of fun, I don't think it would have benefitted us in this race because we were already operating at the limits of the batteries and motor, and it would have added a bit of weight.
In the end, the weather was not on our side. Rain the night before left water and ice on the road. Mark ended up crashing, and although he picked up the bike and kept going, he lost a lot of time and dropped a few places behind the other electric bikes. We were really aiming for the mid-10s and I think we could have hit that target so it was a bit disappointing, but we beat our previous record by a huge margin and beat the other production EV, a Tesla Model S, so all was not lost.
Maybe we'll be back next year to take another shot. That remains to be seen. It's a lot of work, time and money for 10 minutes of racing, but its a very special event.
Thanks to all of you who have enthusiastically supported our race efforts. We still have several of our limited edition 2016 Pikes Peak shirts available. Give us a ring at the shop to order one, only $30!
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Give us a ring at the shop to order one, only $30!
Sure, whats your shipping to the UK like...? :)
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Harlan thanks for reply. When I heard yall had a spill and still beat your old time by like 40 seconds I think that mid 10 min mark was there. If you really step back and think this is basically a 10 year old small company with an almost stock bike (or mix of stock) running with and beating a lot of the big boys. I hope this gets both Zero and Hollywood Electrics some much deserved buzz press. Racing success and sponsorship are like which came first the chicken or the egg they tend to grow together but you have to start somewhere. Good showing and hope yall can keep it up.
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Give us a ring at the shop to order one, only $30!
Sure, whats your shipping to the UK like...? :)
USPS Priority Mail International Small Box Flat Rate is $33.95 to the UK
Harlan thanks for reply. When I heard yall had a spill and still beat your old time by like 40 seconds I think that mid 10 min mark was there. If you really step back and think this is basically a 10 year old small company with an almost stock bike (or mix of stock) running with and beating a lot of the big boys. I hope this gets both Zero and Hollywood Electrics some much deserved buzz press. Racing success and sponsorship are like which came first the chicken or the egg they tend to grow together but you have to start somewhere. Good showing and hope yall can keep it up.
We really love showing off the existing technology and what is attainable. Although we could have removed the MBB and other Zero system components, instead we chose to keep the 2016 Zero system architecture intact. These bikes are not one-off, million dollar prototypes that will never be available to the public, we built them in our shop after hours on a relatively small budget from two production 2016 Zero FXS bikes over a period of three months.
Thanks again for the support. Hopefully we'll have some better luck in the next event and continue to turn some heads.
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Ok anyone still reading this post go to Zero's Facebook page and watch this bike KILL a supermoto track and pass ICE bikes like they are stalled. TORQUE!!!
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Ok anyone still reading this post go to Zero's Facebook page and watch this bike KILL a supermoto track and pass ICE bikes like they are stalled. TORQUE!!!
Here is a link to the video on vimeo for those that don't want to hunt through Zero's Facebook.
https://vimeo.com/175332279
Eeggcellent!! If Zero started selling this bike and stock Zero's start tearing up tracks and winning races across the country they would get a lot more mainstream attention and buy in...especially for the FX/FXS where the range is not as critical...especially when you have a system that allows you to swap packs quickly under race day conditions (if you have the $$$ for extra bricks and chargers...this is where falling battery prices could REALLY make a difference).
I'm still skeptical that we will ever see a bike like this directly from Zero (at least in the next couple years) due to the fact that they have made many public statements in the past regarding their belief that they are at a good pack voltage balancing power with safety. But I have a sliver of hope and here's why:
1. Zero collaborated with Hollywood electrics on the bike. If the custom battery pack they used to enable using the high voltage size 4 controller came from Zero that would increase the likelihood that we might see Zero up the voltage on future bikes.
2. Harlan did the size 6 controller first and then Zero followed offering an official SR. It doesn't seem like a huge stretch that they would collaborate with Hollywood Electrics to create a test bike for Pikes Peak with plans to offer higher voltage bikes in the future.
3. It wouldn't be the first time Zero increased the pack voltage on their lineup. While it may be unlikely that they would do something like double the voltage of the pack and change the motor and controller to match, switching to SEVCONs high voltage Gen4 offerings doesn't require a huge leap....current is 116V max...high voltage controllers can handle 150V max.
4. Zero started updating the monolith batteries for older Zero's under warranty and replacing them with ZF12.5 and in at least one case someone posted they got a ZF13 pack. While I trust that they may have legitimate concerns that the older packs are going to live up to the warranty they may also be taking advantage of the opportunity to clear out stock of older bricks. And the ZF13 is new for 2016 so if they are trying to clear those out then that offers more hope. That said there could be many other reasons they are trying to clear out old stock of batteries. For example, the Power Tank for 2016 is still using the ZF2.8 bricks. They may keep using the same 29Ah bricks for 2017 (i.e. ZF3.3/ZF6.5/ZF9.8/ZF13) and be planning to up the ZF13 + Power Tank from 15.9 kWh to 16.2 kWh.
5. Increasing pack voltage would allow the flexibility to keep torque at the wheel the same but change the gearing to enable a higher top end and thus make the FX/FXS a lot more competitive. (side note: Don't be fooled by spec sheets. Using the high voltage controllers offers a bigger increase in performance than may be obvious by just looking at the numbers (e.g. peak current, continuous current etc.).)
It would be really sweet to see Zero update to the high voltage controllers across the lineup. However, SEVCON is currently not yet offering a size 6 high voltage controller so if they are planning to up the voltage across the lineup they would either be one of the first customers to use it or the transition isn't planned to take place for a couple more years. I'm not sure how likely it is that they would increase the voltage on some models (i.e. everything but the SR) and not others....I wonder how a high voltage 'Zero S' with a size 4 controller and IPM motor with high temp magnets would compete against the current SR with a size 6 controller??
However, IMO, if they were to start selling this bike traction control is a must. The FXS is so light that the rear tire is already eager break loose with a quick twist of the wrist. I can't remember who said it but in one of the videos Zero posted they said that the pikes peak bike couldn't keep traction with the stock tires and they needed to go to really soft slicks to handle all the torque. I suppose they could gear to keep torque at the wheel the same as the current models and just take advantage of the higher top speed. Or they could program to keep torque tuned down when RPM is low and take advantage of the extra power when RPM is higher turning the FXS into a wheelie machine. Although traction control may or may not be all that desirable on the track, if its being used as a commuter I think even the current models could really benefit from it. I already want an FXS or an FX (or both)....if Zero offered a high voltage FX/FXS I would have a hard time keeping myself from buying one.
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Ok anyone still reading this post go to Zero's Facebook page and watch this bike KILL a supermoto track and pass ICE bikes like they are stalled. TORQUE!!!
Eeggcellent!! If Zero started selling this bike and stock Zero's start tearing up tracks and winning races across the country they would get a lot more mainstream attention and buy in...especially for the FX/FXS where the range is not as critical...especially when you have a system that allows you to swap packs quickly under race day conditions (if you have the $$$ for extra bricks and chargers...this is where falling battery prices could REALLY make a difference).
I'm still skeptical that we will ever see a bike like this directly from Zero (at least in the next couple years) due to the fact that they have made many public statements in the past regarding their belief that they are at a good pack voltage balancing power with safety. But I have a sliver of hope and here's why:
1. Zero collaborated with Hollywood electrics on the bike. If the custom battery pack they used to enable using the high voltage size 4 controller came from Zero that would increase the likelihood that we might see Zero up the voltage on future bikes.
2. Harlan did the size 6 controller first and then Zero followed offering an official SR. It doesn't seem like a huge stretch that they would collaborate with Hollywood Electrics to create a test bike for Pikes Peak with plans to offer higher voltage bikes in the future.
3. It wouldn't be the first time Zero increased the pack voltage on their lineup. While it may be unlikely that they would do something like double the voltage of the pack and change the motor and controller to match, switching to SEVCONs high voltage Gen4 offerings doesn't require a huge leap....current is 116V max...high voltage controllers can handle 150V max.
4. Zero started updating the monolith batteries for older Zero's under warranty and replacing them with ZF12.5 and in at least one case someone posted they got a ZF13 pack. While I trust that they may have legitimate concerns that the older packs are going to live up to the warranty they may also be taking advantage of the opportunity to clear out stock of older bricks. And the ZF13 is new for 2016 so if they are trying to clear those out then that offers more hope. That said there could be many other reasons they are trying to clear out old stock of batteries. For example, the Power Tank for 2016 is still using the ZF2.8 bricks. They may keep using the same 29Ah bricks for 2017 (i.e. ZF3.3/ZF6.5/ZF9.8/ZF13) and be planning to up the ZF13 + Power Tank from 15.9 kWh to 16.2 kWh.
5. Increasing pack voltage would allow the flexibility to keep torque at the wheel the same but change the gearing to enable a higher top end and thus make the FX/FXS a lot more competitive. (side note: Don't be fooled by spec sheets. Using the high voltage controllers offers a bigger increase in performance than may be obvious by just looking at the numbers (e.g. peak current, continuous current etc.).)
It would be really sweet to see Zero update to the high voltage controllers across the lineup. However, SEVCON is currently not yet offering a size 6 high voltage controller so if they are planning to up the voltage across the lineup they would either be one of the first customers to use it or the transition isn't planned to take place for a couple more years. I'm not sure how likely it is that they would increase the voltage on some models (i.e. everything but the SR) and not others....I wonder how a high voltage 'Zero S' with a size 4 controller and IPM motor with high temp magnets would compete against the current SR with a size 6 controller??
However, IMO, if they were to start selling this bike traction control is a must. The FXS is so light that the rear tire is already eager break loose with a quick twist of the wrist. I can't remember who said it but in one of the videos Zero posted they said that the pikes peak bike couldn't keep traction with the stock tires and they needed to go to really soft slicks to handle all the torque. I suppose they could gear to keep torque at the wheel the same as the current models and just take advantage of the higher top speed. Or they could program to keep torque tuned down when RPM is low and take advantage of the extra power when RPM is higher turning the FXS into a wheelie machine. Although traction control may or may not be all that desirable on the track, if its being used as a commuter I think even the current models could really benefit from it. I already want an FXS or an FX (or both)....if Zero offered a high voltage FX/FXS I would have a hard time keeping myself from buying one.
The controller we used in this bike is not a high voltage controller. It is running at the same voltage as production Zeros. As I said before, we have not deviated from the production bike much at all.
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The controller we used in this bike is not a high voltage controller. It is running at the same voltage as production Zeros. As I said before, we have not deviated from the production bike much at all.
Crap...sliver of hope gone... :'(
I misunderstood this other post of yours...
I don't think you see what you think you see. They were running a home built pack ~150V with a high voltage sevcon gen4.
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Is that a different bike and not the Hollywood electrics bike that was running ~150V with the high voltage SEVCON gen4?
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The controller we used in this bike is not a high voltage controller. It is running at the same voltage as production Zeros. As I said before, we have not deviated from the production bike much at all.
My bad...now that I go back and reread that other thread I realize that bike looks totally different than the two Hollywood Electrics bikes. Whose bike was that running the HV SECVON gen4?
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Ummm so there is this guy on Zero's face book talking about riding a FXS on the track. Then he talks about riding Harlan's FXSR. Then he says Harlan will build you one like it. Then he says THE Pikes Peak bike is for sale. You guys out in CA with a bit more of a "fun" budget should really look into this option as it simply the most fun combo you could put together.
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http://youtu.be/h4b6xrqMI4Y (http://youtu.be/h4b6xrqMI4Y)
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http://youtu.be/h4b6xrqMI4Y (http://youtu.be/h4b6xrqMI4Y)
cool video. I got worried at the 4:45 mark when he showed that rear wheel lock into the corner.. I thought he was going to end with "I binned the bike a bit" or something like that.
He is right about the engine braking though.. I adjusted easy because its like my two strokes, but as they become more mainstream guys that grew up in the 4stroke dirtbike era will have to adapt two stroke-ish technique.
I cant wait until the day they have an electric supermoto series... imagine opening up the kart tracks around the country to racing where the noise would normally make it impossible... Its the future of supermoto.
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While Higher voltage may be fun, that is what caused a lot of people early on to NOT buy the Zeros.
The first few years they were going " Bigger Stronger Faster " each yea rmaking the previous year(s) virtually
worthless. People weren't buying THIS year's bike because NEXT year's bike would be so much
better. Since they settled on a voltage, it seems to have made people feel more comfortable making such a high
dollar purchase. They still seem to be doing more "upgrades" from year to year than the ICE
bikes do, but, at least there is some consistency to the power plant / battery.
Granted, this years ICE flagship won't be as good as next year's flagship, but, 10 years down the
road, it will still be usable.
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I cant wait until the day they have an electric supermoto series... imagine opening up the kart tracks around the country to racing where the noise would normally make it impossible... Its the future of supermoto.
I totally agree! But don't forget motocross, supercross, enduro, trials and free style. Having these events in areas that wouldn't even consider it today because of the noise is gonna be awesome. Hopefully it will increase the popularity of the events once they start happening all over the place. Especially when those with a big enough back yard can practice whenever they want without pissing off the neighbors ;D
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http://youtu.be/h4b6xrqMI4Y (http://youtu.be/h4b6xrqMI4Y)
Are... you really supposed to stick your leg out like that? Every time he did I kept wincing, but I know nothing about track racing besides what I have seen on the telly occasionally.
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http://youtu.be/h4b6xrqMI4Y (http://youtu.be/h4b6xrqMI4Y)
Are... you really supposed to stick your leg out like that? Every time he did I kept wincing, but I know nothing about track racing besides what I have seen on the telly occasionally.
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Theres two types of supermoto hanging off technique.. leg off and knee down. Some people prefer one over the other, others (myself included) swap between the two depending on the bike and the corner.
Watch some supermoto videos on youtube and you'll see both, but it seems like 70% prefer leg out over knee down.. I think its because most are from a MX background.
Some guys swear that leg out lets you move faster for technical bits and that knee down reduces lean angle... but honestly I do whatever makes me feel comfortable. I dont have any real reasoning behind it.