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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Hansi on April 10, 2016, 03:43:33 PM
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No thread about this yet? What do you hope/think will be changed in the upcoming 2017 models?
I hope for the possibility of faster charging, something like the DigiNow charger as an option instead of/as an upgrade to the current Charge Tank. This is my main hope and the reason I haven't bought a Zero yet. I also hope they will continue to provide a small increase in battery capacity like earlier model years has gotten.
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My hopes for 2017:
a. new sports performance model featuring:
- liquid-cooled battery
- more powerful, liquid-cooled motor
- fairing, raised/rearward rearsets and sports seat
b. wider 4.25" rear wheel for SR/S/DSR/DS/FXS
c. lighter and/or more powerful onboard charger
d. left hand rear brake option
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Traction control. I have almost been high sided twice.
3 phase charging at 11 or 22 kW
CCS fast charging @ 25-50 kW
Graphene battery
Progressive egen throttle, I mean: when pushing the throttle back, it will progessively regen
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Definitely fairings for me. Not race replica fairings (unless on a model like that described above), but more upright middleweight sport-touring type fairings like a Ninja 650R or the like (with different styling of course). I think that those on an SR would make for a nice highway commuter compared to a naked, as weather protection and range would both be improved.
I don't think a full Vetter style fairing would be very marketable except to the hardcore E-enthusiasts. Electric motorcycles are already a niche within a niche, and that would be a niche within a niche within a niche. I do think a modest conventional fairing would be more palatable to more people. A good middle ground. I would certainly pay more for this. Of course, the naked could still be offered for those who don't want fairings.
Zero... please do this. I see a lot of customers and potential customers asking for it.
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---new headlight style for fx/fxs...possibly update the headlights on the other models as well.
---+1 for a more powerful onboard charger, maybe something similar to the quick charger integrated on the bike as standard.
---keep upping the torque/hp specs(faster is always better). Some of those other E-bikes got some crazy specs.
---lower price
---Graphene battery (I wish...)
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I'd like to see:
- optional onboard 3phase charger 11kW with Type2 inlet
- variable regen via clutch lever
- reverse switch
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A fairing that improves range at speed and provides weather protection. It's a great opportunity to design something distinctive but cool. Something that makes Zeros stand out. Something for people to admire and talk about.
If that isn't feasible, then Zero could work with a third party to get it done.
Next on my list is to build the Diginow charger into the bike as standard. Get rid of the current on-board charger that is underpowered and unreliable. Failing that, a 3kW on-board charger that can be dialed down for the U.S. market and their 110V wall sockets.
I'd really like to see Zero forge a strong alliance with Diginow and use the super charger in a new charge tank as an option.
Next on my list is traction control as standard. People coming off ice bikes have no real concept of what instant torque of such magnitude can do. I broke my wrist finding out and it's only a matter of time before someone has a more serious accident. Even on my DS I've lost my rear wheel a couple of times in the wet without trying very hard.
I'd like to see the significant price drop in Li-ion cells over the last year or so to be reflected in the cost of the 2017 bikes. Fairings and fast chargers can be sold as options really. It's really important to get the price down to appeal to commuters. Perhaps the Zero S could be rebadged as the commuter. Give it a decent screen as standard.
Reliability is another really important aspect. I'm sure it has improved but it has to exceed the expectations of those riding Hondas.
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Reliability is another really important aspect. I'm sure it has improved but it has to exceed the expectations of those riding Hondas.
Oh yes, definitely this. I'm still hesitant on buying a Zero because of the many posted reliability issues combined with sometimes LONG waits for repair.
Maybe they haved fixed the reliability issues already because I haven't seen anyone post problems with 2016's, but it doesn't seem that there are very many 2016's around yet, period. Either way, they need to make sure issues are rare and when they do occur... jump ALL OVER them to get customers back on the road ASAP. Follow Tesla's lead in this regard... they know how important that is especially in this early-adopter phase, and they are almost always right on top of issues. A premium price deserves premium service, and it would be nice to know they have your back since you ventured out a little into uncharted territory to support them on something new.
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I'd like to see:
- variable regen via clutch lever
I think this would be a bad idea to offer from the factory simply because it is almost universal among motorcycles to use that lever to decouple the drivetrain from the wheel, not to provide back-torque to it. One thing every reviewer and every demo rider has seemed to do is go for the clutch lever repeatedly. That could get dangerous real quick in the wrong situation. Also, many riders have multiple bikes and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that many still try to grab a handful of clutch after switching back to the Zero. I just think it is not worth the potential safety issues and the lever is better left gone. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling.
However, I'm not against individuals adding one themselves as some have. They bear full responsibility for that and it could be a useful feature at times.
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I'd like to see:
- variable regen via clutch lever
I think this would be a bad idea to offer from the factory simply because it is almost universal among motorcycles to use that lever to decouple the drivetrain from the wheel, not to provide back-torque to it. One thing every reviewer and every demo rider has seemed to do is go for the clutch lever repeatedly. That could get dangerous real quick in the wrong situation. Also, many riders have multiple bikes and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that many still try to grab a handful of clutch after switching back to the Zero. I just think it is not worth the potential safety issues and the lever is better left gone. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling.
However, I'm not against individuals adding one themselves as some have. They bear full responsibility for that and it could be a useful feature at times.
It's not hard to make it so that you get 'full' regen with the lever in neutral position and get a decreasing amount of regen as the lever is engaged up to 'zero' regen with the lever fully engaged. It would effectively be just like a clutch at that point.
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I prefer the idea of being able twist the throttle forward to get an increasing rate of regen. It could double up as reverse if the bike is at a standstill.
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I'd like to see:
- variable regen via clutch lever
I think this would be a bad idea to offer from the factory simply because it is almost universal among motorcycles to use that lever to decouple the drivetrain from the wheel, not to provide back-torque to it. One thing every reviewer and every demo rider has seemed to do is go for the clutch lever repeatedly. That could get dangerous real quick in the wrong situation. Also, many riders have multiple bikes and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that many still try to grab a handful of clutch after switching back to the Zero. I just think it is not worth the potential safety issues and the lever is better left gone. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling.
However, I'm not against individuals adding one themselves as some have. They bear full responsibility for that and it could be a useful feature at times.
Don,t agree! Scooters have a rear brake left hand brake lever. Takes no time to get used to. Also the Lighting LS218 has it too. It's one way of several to get variable regen.
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It's not hard to make it so that you get 'full' regen with the lever in neutral position and get a decreasing amount of regen as the lever is engaged up to 'zero' regen with the lever fully engaged. It would effectively be just like a clutch at that point.
Although it's not hard to do, I think its a really bad idea because it's counter intuitive to everything we do now. Either have it like a normal brake or not at all.
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I would like to see a larger and longer chassis and a larger and softer seat. It would also be nice if the on-board charger could be upped to around 15 amps for faster at-home 120V charging, as I think most homes have 20 amp circuit breakers.
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I prefer the idea of being able twist the throttle forward to get an increasing rate of regen. It could double up as reverse if the bike is at a standstill.
Now this IS a good idea! I had a test ride on a vetrix (however its spelt) scooter that has this feature and I really liked it, and its also intuitive. I also like the reverse idea.
If moving forwards when applied it should bring you to a stop.
If stationary when applied it should reverse you.
For my attainable wish list...
1) above regen/reverse
2) optional fairing (for commuting not racing.
3) consolidate reliability.
Zero will put the biggest available battery without needing to ask. Its a stated goal.
Zero have just developed a new motor, so there won't be a bigger one or water cooled anything as this is against there motto, so why ask?
If you want something like an LS218 then buy it not a zero, but don't expect it to be cheap!
Zero are aiming at an affordable electric bike - so its got to be simple.
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1. Fairing + Windshield - Comport from the wind, cold, rain and more aerodynamic for better range.
2. Aero tail - Better range maybe storage.
3. Better use of regen, more one handed control, less touching the brake. Like the ventrix
4. Charge Tank, but fast as the Diginow. Always good to have options.
5. More color options per model
6. Brighter LED headlight
7. LED turn and running light
8. Left hand brake options that delete the foot brake
9. Update the App - Custom mode on the bike should be custom mode on the app, not Eco on the app
10. Faster On board charger that does not blow breakers near full charge. Adjustable charge rate via app or bike in case you are only on a 120VAC 15 amp circuit.
11. Better fork spring options - I had to cut mine to get the sag right.
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we need fun
FXSR
one FX supermotard with the motor of the SR
program : weeling and stoppy
FX with a good battery graphene batterie 15 kwh
power 50kw torque 150nm
wight 120kg max
tire 150/60 at the back to have choise to put what we want
wheel 4.25 and 3.50
good break 4 cylinder radial
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we need fun
FXSR
one FX supermotard with the motor of the SR
program : weeling and stoppy
FX with a good battery graphene batterie 15 kwh
power 50kw torque 150nm
wight 120kg max
tire 150/60 at the back to have choise to put what we want
wheel 4.25 and 3.50
good break 4 cylinder radial
With a graphene battery (like on the other post) then 15kwh is only 14.4kg - thats less than with one current battery! It would put the FX at about 108 kg.
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Aren't Graphene batteries a long way into the future? If they can make them work at all that is? I think the general consensus on this forum is to admire the research but not get too excited about it until it's in production. That could easily be ten years away.
I'm probably guilty of wishing too much by way of developments. It's remarkable what Zero have achieved with their limited resources over the last few years. None of this stuff is easy, just look at all those that have tried and failed.
I really enjoy riding my Zero, which is a 2014 model. Even if Zero only manage a bit of extra spit and polish for next year's model, I feel it's a great product as it stands. Perhaps we should try and tame our expectations. Development can include better reliability and better customer service. :-)
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Aren't Graphene batteries a long way into the future? If they can make them work at all that is? I think the general consensus on this forum is to admire the research but not get too excited about it until it's in production. That could easily be ten years away.
Yeah. We dont even have a way of mass producing graphene sheets yet.
In the near future, we can expect to see more C rating (both charging and discharging) from carbon coating in Lipo batteries, but nothing extreme. Just a small advancement from the lower internal resistance due to the larger surface area from the carbon.
This is more helpful though to those of us that want more power. Just get a larger controller (not cheap or easy) and program it for more amps(not easy)... but then more "snap".
Clearly if Zero did this, it would have to be in a performance model though. Some people have trouble with the S as it is.
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we need fun
FXSR
one FX supermotard with the motor of the SR
program : weeling and stoppy
FX with a good battery graphene batterie 15 kwh
power 50kw torque 150nm
wight 120kg max
tire 150/60 at the back to have choise to put what we want
wheel 4.25 and 3.50
good break 4 cylinder radial
So you want an FXS with 3x the battery capacity, twice the torque and you want it to weigh less than what it currently does. If such a bike does exist, how much would you be willing to pay for it?
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+1 on the fairing. The bike I secretly really want is this http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/Honda-RC-E-Concept-Bike-2011.jpg (http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/Honda-RC-E-Concept-Bike-2011.jpg) ;D
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we need fun
FXSR
one FX supermotard with the motor of the SR
program : weeling and stoppy
FX with a good battery graphene batterie 15 kwh
power 50kw torque 150nm
wight 120kg max
tire 150/60 at the back to have choise to put what we want
wheel 4.25 and 3.50
good break 4 cylinder radial
So you want an FXS with 3x the battery capacity, twice the torque and you want it to weigh less than what it currently does. If such a bike does exist, how much would you be willing to pay for it?
The same as a top dollar ICE offroad bike of course.
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Those interested in Zero's up and coming features and fairings may be interested in this article http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/ (http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/)
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Those interested in Zero's up and coming features and fairings may be interested in this article http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/ (http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/)
To be clear, it's an Indonesian dealer offering a customization, quoted at 23000 USD:
http://www.trussty.com/2016/04/here-she-is-zero-electric-motorcycle.html?m=1 (http://www.trussty.com/2016/04/here-she-is-zero-electric-motorcycle.html?m=1)
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Hmm, realistic for 2017.
What we probably won't see
1. Factory supported aerodynamic option. We all know improved aero has huge advantages. Zero's engineering team knows (http://www.electricracenews.com/2013_07_01_archive.html). Either the engineering and styling folks haven't completed the aero fairings - possible, good aero is hard - or the business folks haven't figured out how to sell it.
I also suspect they may be waiting for a viable DCQC option to really focus on a touring bike. Without DCQC, aero improvements would really only offer a very small benefit to existing customers that are already buying their bikes.
In order to see huge growth, Zero needs to attract the tech-curious mainstream biker. A debatably goofy-looking aero shell ($2000?) and $3000 in aftermarket, heavy equipment to charge at RV parks is cool to us, but it's not going to pull in the mainstream biker.
Time to charge 1 hour of highway riding @ 70 mph, or highway miles charged per minute (mpm):
Tesla Model S 90D @ 310 Wh/mile, 100 kW 1.1C charge 0% to 50%: 14.0 minutes, 5 mpm
Zero 6 brick 29 Ah, moderate aero @ 120 Wh/mile, 34 kW 2C charge to 80%: 14.9 minutes, 4.7 mpm
Tesla Model S 70 @ 310 Wh/mile, 80 kW 1.1C charge 0% to 50%: 16.3 minutes, 4.3 mpm
Zero 5 brick 29 Ah, moderate aero @ 120 Wh/mile, 28 kW 2C charge to 80%: 18.4 minutes, 3.8 mpm
Nissan LEAF @ 50 kW CHAdeMO: 35 minutes, 2 mpm
Zero, Vetter streamliner @ 100 Wh/mile, DigiNow 10kW from 14-50: 44 minutes, 1.6 mpm
Zero, moderate aero @ 120 Wh/mile, DigiNow 7kW from 32A J1772: 70 minutes, 1 mpm
Stock 2016 @ 140 Wh/mile, 3.8 kW Charge Tank: 140 minutes, 0.5 mpm
Note that the six-brick Zero S is five times as fast (!) as the DigiNow bike, assuming the same level of aero treatment.
I think the magic number is somewhere around 4 minutes of riding / driving per minute spent charging .. and I think we'll see a real tipping point once this can be done affordably (ie not the $30k price points Lightning and Energica sell at).
2. More power. Zero just introduced the IPM motors. Don't expect to see a change here.
3. Significantly more energy. Zero could build a 17-18 kWh 6 brick bike today, which would boost range by about 25% vs a 2016 PT bike with only a very small weight penalty. Like the aero tweaks, I think this may wait until the DCQC wars settle out.
Realistic Wishlist
1. Power Tank using the same cells as the rest of the bike. Obvious. Small improvement in energy - would push the city range over 200 miles for a big marketing win - but also I think improve reliability re: mismatched cell chemistries.
2. Possibly a higher energy density, lower power density cell. The 29Ah cell (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314.0) seems to be an amazing cell, but even for the SR has far more power density than required. I wonder if Farasis could apply a similar set of refinements to the 29 Ah cell and produce a 30-31 Ah cell in the same form factor. A 4 brick 31 Ah bike would have about 7% more energy, and a 5 brick 31 Ah bike would have about 10% more energy (15.5 kWh nominal).
Zero has increased capacity every year from 2010 to 2016, save 2014. To do so in 2017 they will need a more energy-dense chemistry or to significantly reconfigure the bike architecture, and all the indicators they're sending are that they're not ready to reconfigure yet.
3. Full LED lighting. Something as advanced as the Zero should have similarly advanced lighting. These are expensive bikes, let's give them appropriate headlights :)
4. Ditch the ridiculously heavy, failure-prone on-board charger. Integrate the 2.5 kW charger and J1772 from the Charge Tank as standard. This will be a big win for those with 240V domestic circuits, and help keep charge times from further inflating.
5. Offer a low-cost 5 year extended warranty. Either the bikes are reliable and this is easy money for Zero or they're not, and it isn't. Zero has been very good about "making it right" for owners even out of warranty (see MY13 power pack replacement), but I think we'd all like to hope that's the last major recall Zero has to do.
6. Further price cuts. I would not be surprised to see the $1000 April promotion become permanent.
7. The 3 brick 2016 S has about 90% as much range as the 4 brick 2013 .. and the 2016 cell chemistry has a lot of power. What about a 3 brick SR? It'd cost Zero almost no engineering time to make, it'd make splashy headlines (< 3s 0-60? race a Zero vs P90DL?), and I think it'd draw a lot of interest from people that eventually buy 4 brick bikes anyways.
My secret wish
Validate the existing 29 Ah cell technology for 2C charging, add some thermal transfer material or whatnot for better cooling, and partner with Tesla for Supercharger network access. Then we can go full-steam ahead on a six-brick aero-tweaked bike.. 150 miles of highway range will make the 100 mile hops between Superchargers easy, and it'll take only 30 minutes to get enough range for 90 minutes of riding.
This is great for Zero. The Tesla superchargers claim to go down as low as 60V, and can push a couple hundred amps. Perfect for the ~100V technology Zero uses today. Even if CCS eventually beats CHAdEMO in the US and the EU, the higher voltage and 100-125A maximum limitation reduce the effectiveness.
This is great for Tesla. It validates their strategy of openness to other manufacturers. Zeros will sip electricity compared to cars, so Tesla's electricity bill will barely budge. Good publicity for both Tesla and Zero.
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Great post promo, as always. Thanks. Some great thinking there.
Another advantage to Tesla opening up to Zero is the fact that there aren't so many of us yet, so less chance of us hogging their chargers and upsetting Tesla owners. I wouldn't be surprised to see a time limit for charging to make sure people don't leave their bikes plugged in too long.
I've got a really easy suggestion for the 2017 models: Put a belt tension guage in the faux tank bag along with the charge cable.
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Great post proto, as always. Thanks. Some great thinking there.
Another advantage to Tesla opening up to Zero is the fact that there aren't so many of us yet, so less chance of us hogging their chargers and upsetting Tesla owners. I wouldn't be surprised to see a time limit for charging to make sure people don't leave their bikes plugged in too long.
Maybe Zero is hinting at something .. we can dream :)
https://twitter.com/zeromc/status/719589421897494528
As far as leaving the bike plugged in is concerned.. the inlet could be set to unlock after a full charge, and perhaps the bike wouldn't even block a car from charging. The Zero battery doesn't seem to need as much taper as the Tesla battery, so realistically a 20-80% charge (charge 90 miles for a six brick mild aero S) would take less than 20 minutes at 2C.
The average miles per minute charge rate is similar, but even a larger Zero battery with mild aero doesn't have the outright range that a Tesla would have ... so the bikes simply won't spend as long in the typical case on the charger.
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There's another potential objection flattened! :-)
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Tesla just launched their Model 3 with huge interest. Plans are to double the SuperCharger network this year. Given there are already usage issues (lines forming, valet service required to keep irritation down) in some areas, I really do not see Tesla providing SC services to anyone else given the demands Model 3 will put on the network.
In addition, it sees silly to use 135 KW fast DC charging capability for something that could just as easily be accomplished using 80 amp 220V service although you would have to have a charger to get the job done.
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Tesla just launched their Model 3 with huge interest. Plans are to double the SuperCharger network this year. Given there are already usage issues (lines forming, valet service required to keep irritation down) in some areas, I really do not see Tesla providing SC services to anyone else given the demands Model 3 will put on the network.
In addition, it sees silly to use 135 KW fast DC charging capability for something that could just as easily be accomplished using 80 amp 220V service although you would have to have a charger to get the job done.
A few high pressure areas will always exist in the system that is sized for the 95% use case.
Tesla's job is to plan ahead and expand the network as additional users are brought onto the system, and to identify those high-pressure areas and mitigate the pressure.
Tesla thus far has shown themselves to be responsible stewards of this network, which is part of why I'd like to see Zero adopt their standard.
This expansion will be paid for by all users of the network, including Zero. This won't be free to Zero riders (whether paid up front or annual billing or whatever Tesla decides on for the M 3). And remember that Tesla's oft-stated objective is to accelerate the advent of sustainable transportation; this is consistent with their decisions to release patents as well as their stated intention to welcome other well-behaving users onto their network.
240V 80 amp delivers 20 kW only, which is about 60% as fast as the 34 kW charge rate that a 17 kWh 2C bike could accept. Further, 20 kW EVSEs are few and far between, never mind the size of a 20 kW onboard charger (if not using a controller-based rectifier).
And regardless of the charge power used, a hypothetical Zero capable of 2C to 80% would charge faster than some Model S vehicles in terms of miles per minute, particularly a Model S at high SOC.
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- Reverse mode to walk the bike back uphill or over bumps.
- Fairings and windscreen to improve rider comfort in all weather.
- 10kW J1772 charging.
For beyond 2017:
- WiFi connectivity and a color screen for traffic alerts, navigation, and bike tracking.
- Proximity key operation.
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With the full knowledge that innovation comes in discrete, tiny packages... here is what I would like to see for 2017 model year.
- Integrated J1772 charging, standard.
- Full LED lighting all around
- The ability to update the bike firmware through the mobile app.
I think that's pretty good for a year of development & refinement. As the years progress, we all want the usual stuff: better, faster, farther, cheaper.
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My wishlist -
- Reverse switch (advantage only electrics can have)
- Belt repair emergency kit
- RTR off road Zero (better shocks, seat, tires...)
- Quick detachment of the rear lights and fender.
Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
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I do not like the idea of reverse being accomplished by simply pushing the throttle forward while stopped.
Imagine if you come up to a stop light and get stuck for a while so you sit back a bit and crack your fingers then when it finally goes green you quickly reach forward, twist it the wrong way and crash into the car behind you. It should definitely be at least a 2 step process...maybe even more 1) Full stop, 2) Hold reversing button for 2 seconds, 3) Twist throttle. Having a lengthy process like that makes it difficult to activate it accidentally and how often do you need to go into reverse immediately?
Zero should definitely reintroduce DCQC, Tesla SC, ChaDeMo, CCS, it doesn't matter, but it needs to be available. Maybe even offer the adapters as a loan, like You're charged the full price for a new one from your dealer, and can walk out with it, then when you return it you get all but $20 back unless you buy one and you get a brand new one...basically meaning a free rental if you buy afterwards. That way people can know which chargers they can use and which they can't.
Larger battery would be nice, but I wouldn't expect much improvement, if any.
I think the biggest thing is price. You can get a used Leaf for less than a used Zero S with the large battery, that's a tough sell particularly given the limited usability of a motorcycle versus a car.
Aerodynamics are fairly cheap all things considered, but Zero is probably avoiding them just for the cost savings, however it should certainly be available.
Lighting changes are minor so if people voice their desire for it, LED could come around for next year.
Charging updates would be great, but as it stands they expect the average person to use the bike for daily commuting rather than long distance so a larger battery is more important to them than faster charging (easier round trip for long distancds and always charged overnight).
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The Leaf comment is especially interesting........
My sister in law just bought a 2013 off lease Leaf with 22K miles for $10K. That is a fantastic value provided you only drive 60 miles in a day.
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I think the biggest thing is price. You can get a used Leaf for less than a used Zero S with the large battery, that's a tough sell particularly given the limited usability of a motorcycle versus a car.
I think that most motorcycle riders are not "utilitarian" riders. They care about price, don't get me wrong, but they care way way way more about having a cool bike - if that means the roar/chrome of a Harley or the ultimate performance of a Sport bike. A used Leaf just doesn't have that cool factor, no matter how much more useful (or cheaply priced) it may be.
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I think the biggest thing is price. You can get a used Leaf for less than a used Zero S with the large battery, that's a tough sell particularly given the limited usability of a motorcycle versus a car.
I think that most motorcycle riders are not "utilitarian" riders. They care about price, don't get me wrong, but they care way way way more about having a cool bike - if that means the roar/chrome of a Harley or the ultimate performance of a Sport bike. A used Leaf just doesn't have that cool factor, no matter how much more useful (or cheaply priced) it may be.
I use my Zero almost exclusively to replace trips that I would have taken in my car. I have a tank bag, top box, seat pack. saddlebags and a backpack that will allow me to carry just about anything other than a ladder or bookcase. I just hate driving a car and have done my best to avoid driving a car for the past 54 years. So for me, I am looking for utility, the largest battery I can get and 120V overnight charging. But a softer seat would be nice too, to go with longer range. ;) Except for the softer seat, so far Zero has been giving me everything that I want. I will be happy if they continue in their current development direction. :)
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1. 120MPH
2. Fairings
3. Reverse
4. 3kW on board charging standard
5. Tank with a solid hinged lid no zipper
6. USB upgrade/charging port standard
7. Seat options Gel/width/firmness
8. Custom settings adjustable on the bike (no app)
9. Larger or separate color screen for nav/charge station info
10.LED lights all around.
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5,6, and 10 seem like easy wins and I would agree they would be nice to have. (I like some of the others too, but they probably cost more to implement).
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for the first one it already existe a option
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=181&zenid=vr6h3a98l4bt4su7rtp7d4mi34 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=181&zenid=vr6h3a98l4bt4su7rtp7d4mi34)
a different transmission, but it is against le acceleration
for mie part i prefere acceleration than top speed
still hoping on a FXSR, a FXS with a SR motorisation
;-)
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The only problem with some of these suggestions is the added weight. These are not touring bikes and won't be for the foreseeable future. I would want my new Zero to be lighter in fact. That and a modest increase in range. Sustained 75 mph with a 120 mile range at that speed, max weight of 340 lbs., and max seat ht. of 31.5 in. for an S or SR model and I'm in.
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Tank with a solid hinged lid no zipper
Custom settings adjustable on the bike (no app)
Left hand rear break
All good suggestions, I would also add:
1. Service manual
2. Integrated charging timer
3. Option to turn headlight off when the kill switch is activated. Realized you can just pull out the connection at the back of the light.
4. Some feature to keep the bike from rolling when upright (other than pulling break levers).
5. The break light should come on with heavy regenerative breaking. I believe this is actually a safety issue; if you want to notify the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration you can call 888-327-4236 or go to www.safercar.gov (http://www.safercar.gov). In the meantime you can adjust the front break so that you can pull that lever to activate the break light without activating the break.
6. Option to customize the lower speed limit for regenerative breaking; it's set at 12mph. Someone might want to coast any time the bike is going slower than 20mph, for example, but I actually want it at about 4mph so I can come to a stop in most circumstances using only the regenerative breaking and go slower downhill without hitting the breaks.
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Best improvements to us would be:
-Another 4/5% battery increase
-All LED lighting
- More colours, more readable dashboard
-Waterproof, solid and bigger compartment locked when key is removed, no more soft pouch
-150 Rear tire
- Better rear brake
- Wider, tougher belt, with better protection, specially on DS/DSR (Check T-Max casing)
- 10° more on direction for easier turn at slow speed
- Change the Handlebar for S/SR, so oldy bending.
- Softer seat
- More efficient Rear Fender
- Return of the MMX with MX supension
To widen the targets the development of an e-Scooter capable of 100Km/H / 100km range/ with enough storage under the seat for 2 small helmets is a real path. Equivallent 125cc is the key in most countries to get the car drivers license on 2 wheels!
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The only problem with some of these suggestions is the added weight. These are not touring bikes and won't be for the foreseeable future. I would want my new Zero to be lighter in fact. That and a modest increase in range. Sustained 75 mph with a 120 mile range at that speed, max weight of 340 lbs., and max seat ht. of 31.5 in. for an S or SR model and I'm in.
If you want to go 75 MPH and 120 miles range, fairings and windsheild are a must. Electric Terry has already proven that.
The fairings are a modest increase in weight, more comfy and better for all weather commuting. I don't know wants to deal with a 75 MPH head wind with no protection from the wind. Fairings should be a option.
Max seat height also hurts range, but I get why some people would want that.
The standard SR is actually lighter or as light as most 600 cc sport bikes.
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My wishlist -
- Reverse switch (advantage only electrics can have)
- Belt repair emergency kit
- RTR off road Zero (better shocks, seat, tires...)
- Quick detachment of the rear lights and fender.
Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
Goldwing's have had reverse for a while now. Works well for them, almost a necessity on a giant bike like that. It wouldn't matter much to me on something as light as a Zero.
Clay
DoD #2160,6
currently riding '02 FSC600.
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My wishlist -
- Reverse switch (advantage only electrics can have)
Goldwing's have had reverse for a while now. Works well for them, almost a necessity on a giant bike like that. It wouldn't matter much to me on something as light as a Zero.
I'm specifically interested in making sure I can back up while facing downhill (mud or gravel too). Someone could market it as an extra, if the firmware mapping were easier to apply.
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My wishlist.
Move the bloody BMS to a more water proof location! >:(
Sort out the blasted isolation problems while they are at it.
(Ok, my SR is in for fixing after water ingress possibly may have killed the BMS, so I'm little biased right now)
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I'm surprised no one mentioned my one thought: PARKING BRAKE!! Unlike most ICE bikes, which you can leave in gear to keep it from rolling, there is nothing to prevent the Zero (or any electric bike I can think of) from rolling off the sidestand if parked on a decline. Even CVT-equipped scooters have a parking brake to prevent that from happening.
Best solution would be to copy BMW's idea of integrating the parking brake into the sidestand. With my C650GT, once the sidestand is down, you can't roll the scooter anywhere. Unlike my old TMAX (where you had to remember to set the parking brake), it's all "automatic."
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I'm surprised no one mentioned my one thought: PARKING BRAKE!! Unlike most ICE bikes, which you can leave in gear to keep it from rolling, there is nothing to prevent the Zero (or any electric bike I can think of) from rolling off the sidestand if parked on a decline. Even CVT-equipped scooters have a parking brake to prevent that from happening.
Best solution would be to copy BMW's idea of integrating the parking brake into the sidestand. With my C650GT, once the sidestand is down, you can't roll the scooter anywhere. Unlike my old TMAX (where you had to remember to set the parking brake), it's all "automatic."
its a bit of a pain to put on every time, but there are locks that squeeze the front brake on. They work pretty well for this, although they're not as convenient.
I recall there is a way to lock a hubmotor.. I think it was just shorting the phases together or something like that. some controller I used to have had the feature. That could work too.
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When parked on a hill, I strap a Velcro strip, that I carry in my tank bag, around my front brake lever. Very light, cheap and seems to work just fine. :)
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Unlike my old TMAX (where you had to remember to set the parking brake), it's all "automatic."
On my Silverwing it's remembering to release the brake that's the problem. Doh!
Clay
DoD #2160,6
currently riding '02 FSC600.
http://www.gofundme.com/xetw4y35
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My wishlist -
- Reverse switch (advantage only electrics can have)
Goldwing's have had reverse for a while now. Works well for them, almost a necessity on a giant bike like that. It wouldn't matter much to me on something as light as a Zero.
I'm specifically interested in making sure I can back up while facing downhill (mud or gravel too). Someone could market it as an extra, if the firmware mapping were easier to apply.
Just remember my parking on a hill rule: back downhill, forward uphill. [emoji6]
Seriously though, I don't think it would be that easy. You might have to reverse the polarity to the motor. Sounds like invasive low level stuff to me.
Clay
DoD #2160,6
currently riding '02 FSC600.
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One of the features that I liked about the Vectrix that I tested years ago was its back-up "gear". My recollection is that when at a stop you turned the throttle forward, beyond closed, and the motor would back the scooter up slowly. A very handy idea. Vectrix had a lot of good ideas. Too bad they couldn't sell enough product to make a long-term go of it. :(
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Seriously though, I don't think it would be that easy. You might have to reverse the polarity to the motor. Sounds like invasive low level stuff to me.
Nah, couldn't be more trivial. I'd be amazed if the firmware isn't resident in the motor controller already. All it would need is the right commands on the CAN bus from the MBB. That's a hardcore, highly intelligent, multi-phase motor controller.
Cruise control would be a trivial exercise too. I'm surprised Zero hasn't made those two features available. I'd find them both useful and safe.
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I'm surprised no one mentioned my one thought: PARKING BRAKE!! Unlike most ICE bikes, which you can leave in gear to keep it from rolling, there is nothing to prevent the Zero (or any electric bike I can think of) from rolling off the sidestand if parked on a decline. Even CVT-equipped scooters have a parking brake to prevent that from happening.
Best solution would be to copy BMW's idea of integrating the parking brake into the sidestand. With my C650GT, once the sidestand is down, you can't roll the scooter anywhere. Unlike my old TMAX (where you had to remember to set the parking brake), it's all "automatic."
I had a CB750A for years, it had a parking brake. I never used it, didn't need it, bike never moved once parked.
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I'm surprised no one mentioned my one thought: PARKING BRAKE!! Unlike most ICE bikes, which you can leave in gear to keep it from rolling, there is nothing to prevent the Zero (or any electric bike I can think of) from rolling off the sidestand if parked on a decline
I did mention that :'(
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1. Heated grips
2. Helmet lock.
Otherwise she is purrfect!
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1. Heated grips
2. Helmet lock.
Otherwise she is purrfect!
in that case, you're in luck.
You can add both of those easily.
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1. Heated grips
2. Helmet lock.
Otherwise she is purrfect!
I was told to lock my helmet by putting the d-rings in the clasp that holds the storage bag.
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1. Heated grips
2. Helmet lock.
Otherwise she is purrfect!
I was told to lock my helmet by putting the d-rings in the clasp that holds the storage bag.
That does not fit my helmet, so I have a small cable that I loop. Zero could relocate.
1. How about make the storage bag, just a trunk with a plastic hatch that locks.
2. Or make a larger version of the storage bag, that is like a traditional tank bag.
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One of the features that I liked about the Vectrix that I tested years ago was its back-up "gear". My recollection is that when at a stop you turned the throttle forward, beyond closed, and the motor would back the scooter up slowly. A very handy idea. Vectrix had a lot of good ideas. Too bad they couldn't sell enough product to make a long-term go of it. :(
I wish Zero would copy the Vectrix 'throttle'. The regen and reverse is great.
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One of the features that I liked about the Vectrix that I tested years ago was its back-up "gear". My recollection is that when at a stop you turned the throttle forward, beyond closed, and the motor would back the scooter up slowly. A very handy idea. Vectrix had a lot of good ideas. Too bad they couldn't sell enough product to make a long-term go of it. :(
I wish Zero would copy the Vectrix 'throttle'. The regen and reverse is great.
I think Vetrix has a patent.
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They are available for RC hobby use, http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/catalog/89613.jpg at least I think these are the real deal.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Sorry, that was supposed to go into the post about Graphene batteries
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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One of the features that I liked about the Vectrix that I tested years ago was its back-up "gear". My recollection is that when at a stop you turned the throttle forward, beyond closed, and the motor would back the scooter up slowly. A very handy idea. Vectrix had a lot of good ideas. Too bad they couldn't sell enough product to make a long-term go of it. :(
I wish Zero would copy the Vectrix 'throttle'. The regen and reverse is great.
I think Vetrix has a patent.
That shouldn't stop Zero. Hopefully they could license it, although I'm surprised you can patent such a simple feature. Has Vetrix gone bust? If so, can the patent just be ignored?
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One of the features that I liked about the Vectrix that I tested years ago was its back-up "gear". My recollection is that when at a stop you turned the throttle forward, beyond closed, and the motor would back the scooter up slowly. A very handy idea. Vectrix had a lot of good ideas. Too bad they couldn't sell enough product to make a long-term go of it. :(
I wish Zero would copy the Vectrix 'throttle'. The regen and reverse is great.
I think Vetrix has a patent.
That shouldn't stop Zero. Hopefully they could license it, although I'm surprised you can patent such a simple feature. Has Vetrix gone bust? If so, can the patent just be ignored?
The Vectrix IP (lot 1C) was not sold during the chapter 7 auction.
But the patent still shows as paid for
http://www.google.com/patents/US6724165
In fact the latest payment shows October 2015!
Perhaps the patents transferred to the primary investor (Gold Peak)?
And that's probably the reason we didn't see it on any other bike...
Pity because it is simply the best solution.
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A little more Google work seems to support my theory:
http://www.bloomberg.com/Research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapid=183598036
Vectrix International Limited designs and manufactures electric scooters. The company is based in Kwai Chung, Hong Kong. As of July 8, 2015, Vectrix International Limited operates as a subsidiary of GP Battery Technology (HK) Limited.
Please note that the Vectrix chapter 7 was March 2014
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1. Heated grips
2. Helmet lock.
Otherwise she is purrfect!
in that case, you're in luck.
You can add both of those easily.
I have a work around for the helmet lock.
How do you add heated grips? Do tell.
Thank you for any information that will keep my hands warm.
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1. Heated grips
2. Helmet lock.
Otherwise she is purrfect!
in that case, you're in luck.
You can add both of those easily.
I have a work around for the helmet lock.
How do you add heated grips? Do tell.
Thank you for any information that will keep my hands warm.
Oxford heaterz work great. Wire up to an SAE connector and plug in to the SAE accessory connector found in a wire bundle under the tank plastic. The tank plastic will have to be removed to find the accessory connector.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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1. Heated grips
2. Helmet lock.
Otherwise she is purrfect!
in that case, you're in luck.
You can add both of those easily.
I have a work around for the helmet lock.
How do you add heated grips? Do tell.
Thank you for any information that will keep my hands warm.
You add heated grips exactly like you add them to every other motorcycle.
You replace the grips with ones that have heating elements in them, then wire them up.
The only difference is instead of connecting it to a battery, you connect them to the accessory power.. the SAE connector or tap a fused connection off the fuse box.
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For 2017 I'd like to see:
-Lower prices for all models
-Extend the warranty time which shows confidence in your own product and helps reassure customers
-Establish a Zero dealership/warehouse/repair center in the east coast so people from the east don't always have to wait for shipping from the west coast for parts/repairs.
-Extended range/capacity/more power
-Faster charging times standard
-Louder horn
-Throw in a "freebie" with every purchase, giving the customer an option between a free helmet (perhaps with the Zero name on it?), free windscreen, free gloves, or free grips, etc...
-Better quality tires on all models or at least an upgrade option for more premium quality tires
-Offer all models in various color schemes without having to pay a premium for it
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A Li-ion 12V battery that keeps accessories running and boots charging circuits when main power is off. Charging circuits for the Charge Tank could run through a switch (but not require the main key) if the standby current is too large. Bluetooth could be available continuously, and maybe WiFi could be added.
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What about hiding a momentary switch bypassing the ignition to on? you could keep the forks locked and it would not be rideable
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A more futuristic design. We ride a futuristic bike looking bland and uninspiring IMHO. I'd like a "wow!" inducing design, that people will know how cool is the bike even before realizing it's even cooler.
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A more futuristic design. We ride a futuristic bike looking bland and uninspiring IMHO. I'd like a "wow!" inducing design, that people will know how cool is the bike even before realizing it's even cooler.
Depends on what WOW is to you.
If you make it look like Tron. I sure as hell wouldnt buy it.
If you made it glow blue or have a flashy paint job.. I wouldnt buy it.
If you made it look like every other ICE motorcycle, I would judge it on its merits.. not its looks.
If you made it refined enough to look like an ICE at first glance, but very different when you look closer... its how it looks now.
I love the balance they have. I wish it didnt have the "dirtbike radiator scoops" that keeps me from using clipons, but otherwise its pretty good.
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Loud colors save lives. Since our bikes are so quiet, I think brighter, more eye-catching colors would be nice. My S is a nice shade of yellow, and the SR is red... but the other bikes are all BLACK, what's up with that??
We need to be able to stand out in traffic and be much easier to see. I don't care that the most popular color for ICE bikes is flat black. I want to be SEEN.
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Loud colors save lives. Since our bikes are so quiet, I think brighter, more eye-catching colors would be nice. My S is a nice shade of yellow, and the SR is red... but the other bikes are all BLACK, what's up with that??
We need to be able to stand out in traffic and be much easier to see. I don't care that the most popular color for ICE bikes is flat black. I want to be SEEN.
In that case, paint your helmet an obnoxious color. It is far more visible than the bike is.
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Loud colors save lives.
That's no more true than "loud pipes save lives", which is to say, only the tiniest bit true.
Since our bikes are so quiet, I think brighter, more eye-catching colors would be nice. My S is a nice shade of yellow, and the SR is red... but the other bikes are all BLACK, what's up with that?? We need to be able to stand out in traffic and be much easier to see. I don't care that the most popular color for ICE bikes is flat black. I want to be SEEN.
That's a perfectly valid opinion. It isn't one I share. As far as color and styling go, I'm with MrDude, I think Zero hit the nail right on the head. Make it look quite normal, just enough different to catch someone's eye if they look right at it. Otherwise we'd wind up with a two-wheeled Leaf, which looks like a damn toy, or a wannabe crotch rocket, or a wannabe hawg. It's a great motorcycle which happens to be electric, so make it look like a motorcycle, not some electric toy.
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My helmet is already a bright yellow. But more obvious than the bike? Exactly how BIG do you think my head is, anyway???
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A more futuristic design. We ride a futuristic bike looking bland and uninspiring IMHO. I'd like a "wow!" inducing design, that people will know how cool is the bike even before realizing it's even cooler.
Not my taste. I don't like the transformer/ 1 million facets / bolbus look of many modern motorcycles.
I would like to see the air scoop/ wana-be dirt bike fairing design on the Zero, but Zero is not that bad.
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My helmet is already a bright yellow. But more obvious than the bike? Exactly how BIG do you think my head is, anyway???
It's higher than the rest so it stands out in that way. I have a black helmet but and with my current knowledge I would have probably gotten a bright one.
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My helmet is already a bright yellow. But more obvious than the bike? Exactly how BIG do you think my head is, anyway???
Your bike is low, and mostly obscured by the cars around it.
Your helmet is often higher than cars, atleast as high as the sightline of SUV drivers, and is visible from 360*
From the front of the bike, you see mostly headlight... but a bright helmet is visible.
From the rear of the bike, you see mostly tire and taillight... but a bright helmet is visible.
From a side angle of the bike, the bike is often 100% obscured by traffic in other lanes around you... but a bright helmet is visible over and through cars.
In any kind of urban environment, you're better off with a brighter helmet to increase visibility.
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Loud colors save lives.
That's no more true than "loud pipes save lives", which is to say, only the tiniest bit true.
Actually, a study showed that bright colored clothing can reduce risk of injury by 37%. This fact is much less controversial then whether it's better to be loud or quiet.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387473/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387473/)
The same study found that the color of the motorcycle did not have an impact.
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How about this for a new concept: an electric bike that will compete with the Honda Grom (125cc) market. Maybe 20 HP, 40 mile range, 60+ mph top speed, low weight and low seat height for new/short riders. MSRP about $4000 USD. It will of course also compete with the scooter market since it'll be easy to ride and light.
This idea comes from recent events in my life: my Zero S (with PT) dropped on my girlfriend's leg and pinned her to the curb yesterday while she was practicing on it (alone). It took someone else to lift it off her before I ran to the scene. She's just bruised thankfully, the handlebar must have broken the fall of the bike on her leg or I imagine her leg would have been broken. But on a slight slope I wasn't able to lift the bike up alone and had to get a second hand, and embarassingly I am 5'9" 180 pounds and I like to think I am not totally out of shape. I know I have been able to push up other bikes that are 450+ pounds, so maybe the high center of gravity makes the zero hard to get upright? Anyways, she is 5'0" and petite, so little chance she could upright it...
So the trade-offs between bike weight, range, power and MSRP have the Zero S competing with 'real' motorcycles, but what about the market for something lighter, smaller, cheaper and less intimidating, that eco-friendly non-motorcyclists would flock to?
Are there other electric motorcycles that meet the above description? I know electric scooters are getting popular, but the ones I've seen are a just too underpowered in terms of top speed and range.
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On a side note, the best way to lift ANY motorcycle is with your back to the bike and straight, and let your legs do the work. I was similar to your build when I dropped my 850 lbs BMW K1200LT up in Nova Scotia, still packed up with my wife and my belongings for a two week trip, and I was able to lift it using that technique without any help. I also saw a woman about half my size lift a dropped GL1500 Gold Wing using that technique; she had it up and on the sidestand before all the "big strong men" had a chance to put down their sidestands and come to her rescue.
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How about this for a new concept: an electric bike that will compete with the Honda Grom (125cc) market. Maybe 20 HP, 40 mile range, 60+ mph top speed, low weight and low seat height for new/short riders. MSRP about $4000 USD. It will of course also compete with the scooter market since it'll be easy to ride and light.
This range ( at city speeds) and specs are the FX3.3 to the T ... it cost twice what you are suggesting for MSRP new. I don't think it is possible to do what is being requested with only $4k
If you wanted that range at 55mph then your looking at the FX6.5 which is $2k more (cost of extra battery pack)
I wonder if it is possible to significantly lower the FX for a shorter rider given the seat height is 24.7" stock.
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How about this for a new concept: an electric bike that will compete with the Honda Grom (125cc) market. Maybe 20 HP, 40 mile range, 60+ mph top speed, low weight and low seat height for new/short riders. MSRP about $4000 USD. It will of course also compete with the scooter market since it'll be easy to ride and light.
Are there other electric motorcycles that meet the above description? I know electric scooters are getting popular, but the ones I've seen are a just too underpowered in terms of top speed and range.
Maybe something like this?
Suzuki’s Electric “Grom Killer†Coming to Market? (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/suzuki-working-electric-grom-killer/)
(http://i1.wp.com/www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Suzuki-Extrigger-electric-concept-02.jpg)
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I wonder if it is possible to significantly lower the FX for a shorter rider given the seat height is 24.7" stock.
According to the Zero site, the seat height is 32.9 inches. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/specs.php)
Where do you get 24.7" ????
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But it does seem like they could fit that battery pack into a much smaller frame with a lower seat height. The only reason the seat is so high is because they want the suspension travel of a dirt bike.
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According to the Zero site, the seat height is 32.9 inches. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/specs.php)
Where do you get 24.7" ????
34.7 ... my finger missed its target key and I didn't check ;)
And I was looking at the FX not FXS since it would be more powerful than the FX and likely scarier for a beginner.
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According to the Zero site, the seat height is 32.9 inches. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/specs.php)
Where do you get 24.7" ????
34.7 ... my finger missed its target key and I didn't check ;)
And I was looking at the FX not FXS since it would be more powerful than the FX and likely scarier for a beginner.
they have the same power... the FX will just overheat faster.
The FX has offroad tires on it. The FXS has street tires... so the FX is "scarier" onroad than the FXS, and the FXS is "scarier" offroad than the FX..
A beginner shouldnt have a problem with either one, but if they're riding primarily on the street I would recommend the FXS over the FX.
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they have the same power... the FX will just overheat faster.
The FX has offroad tires on it. The FXS has street tires... so the FX is "scarier" onroad than the FXS, and the FXS is "scarier" offroad than the FX..
A beginner shouldnt have a problem with either one, but if they're riding primarily on the street I would recommend the FXS over the FX.
If the only difference is the tires, why do you say the FX will overheat faster??
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If the only difference is the tires, why do you say the FX will overheat faster??
The FXS has the IPM motor. It's designed for better heat transfer.
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Are there other electric motorcycles that meet the above description? I know electric scooters are getting popular, but the ones I've seen are a just too underpowered in terms of top speed and range.
Hi Performance E-Bicycles are doing what you are looking for. Still a niche market, but you can start hitting decent prices with European models sold directly.
Check the ones below :)
http://vectorebike.com/ (http://vectorebike.com/)
http://www.qulbix.com/ (http://www.qulbix.com/)
http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/ (http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/) (Sadly heavily marked up internationally)
The weight to power ratio (bike plus rider) of a Vector Typhoon, is basically the same as the Zero FX, but on a bike that weights less than 50kg
The only catch is that these are not legal at full power on the street. On the street you need to stay in Eco mode respecting whatever local electric bicycle laws are, like 1000W and 28mph in California.
The ones I really wish would become a reality are
http://www.tuvie.com/ktm-delta-electric-motorcycle-for-hipsters-just-like-riding-a-single-speed-bike/ (http://www.tuvie.com/ktm-delta-electric-motorcycle-for-hipsters-just-like-riding-a-single-speed-bike/)
http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/husqvarna-e-go-concept-electric-motorcycle-ar127835.html (http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/husqvarna-e-go-concept-electric-motorcycle-ar127835.html)
But that does not seem to be in the cards so far...
EDIT: There is the Escape from Electric Motion that would make a great contender if they make it street legal.
May be if enough people ask them too they will consider it :)
http://electricmotioncanada.ca/escape/ (http://electricmotioncanada.ca/escape/)
12kW for 78kg
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How about this for a new concept: an electric bike that will compete with the Honda Grom (125cc) market. Maybe 20 HP, 40 mile range, 60+ mph top speed, low weight and low seat height for new/short riders. MSRP about $4000 USD. It will of course also compete with the scooter market since it'll be easy to ride and light.
This idea comes from recent events in my life: my Zero S (with PT) dropped on my girlfriend's leg and pinned her to the curb yesterday while she was practicing on it (alone). It took someone else to lift it off her before I ran to the scene. She's just bruised thankfully, the handlebar must have broken the fall of the bike on her leg or I imagine her leg would have been broken. But on a slight slope I wasn't able to lift the bike up alone and had to get a second hand, and embarassingly I am 5'9" 180 pounds and I like to think I am not totally out of shape. I know I have been able to push up other bikes that are 450+ pounds, so maybe the high center of gravity makes the zero hard to get upright? Anyways, she is 5'0" and petite, so little chance she could upright it...
So the trade-offs between bike weight, range, power and MSRP have the Zero S competing with 'real' motorcycles, but what about the market for something lighter, smaller, cheaper and less intimidating, that eco-friendly non-motorcyclists would flock to?
Are there other electric motorcycles that meet the above description? I know electric scooters are getting popular, but the ones I've seen are a just too underpowered in terms of top speed and range.
that sounds exactly like my electric bicycle.
commercial ebikes are slow and/or short range with few exceptions... but if you're making one at home, you can easily hit those numbers.
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This bike may be close to your requirements. The seat may be a bit high than a Grom (31.7 Inch) but still good for shorter legs.
It's already on the road in some countries so not sure why the website still shows pre-order.
http://www.voltamotorbikes.com/
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For a 2017 Zero sr i would like:
centerstand,
immobilizer,
Speedpilot, or possibility to set max speed all the way down to 40 or 50 km/h
Integrated gps
Integrated usb charge socket
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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For a 2017 Zero sr i would like:
centerstand,
immobilizer,
Speedpilot, or possibility to set max speed all the way down to 40 or 50 km/h
Integrated gps
Integrated usb charge socket
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this list seems odd to me. I understand the immobilizer for insurance and theft.. but why do you feel the need for a centerstand, a lower max speed or the GPS?
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For a 2017 Zero sr i would like:
centerstand,
immobilizer,
Speedpilot, or possibility to set max speed all the way down to 40 or 50 km/h
Integrated gps
Integrated usb charge socket
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this list seems odd to me. I understand the immobilizer for insurance and theft.. but why do you feel the need for a centerstand, a lower max speed or the GPS?
Regarding a centerstand, if you weren't so obsessed with liter-bike performance as "normal", you'd appreciate the ability to maintain one's own bike in remote areas with a minimal set of tools or dealer support. A bike without a centerstand to me is a bike dependent on a random mechanic I can't trust. That's worth more to me than liter-bike performance.
On the other hand, inbuilt immobilizer and GPS to me signal that someone is overly sensitive to theft; the black market for Zero motorcycles is basically nil. This is placebo protection against idiots, which unfortunately is a losing proposition, because idiots can ruin your bike trying to steal it anyway. Most motorcycle manufacturers don't include these (rightly) because they're technology that gets outdated very easily compared to the price. They're fine as accessories.
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The Zombie 2011 bike Jim did used a little box with a 9 volt battery that he had set up to activate the contactor that bypassed the bike's key.
So if you take the little box that bike aint running.
+1 vote for center stand at least for the DS and FX
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For a 2017 Zero sr i would like:
centerstand,
immobilizer,
Speedpilot, or possibility to set max speed all the way down to 40 or 50 km/h
Integrated gps
Integrated usb charge socket
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this list seems odd to me. I understand the immobilizer for insurance and theft.. but why do you feel the need for a centerstand, a lower max speed or the GPS?
Regarding a centerstand, if you weren't so obsessed with liter-bike performance as "normal", you'd appreciate the ability to maintain one's own bike in remote areas with a minimal set of tools or dealer support. A bike without a centerstand to me is a bike dependent on a random mechanic I can't trust. That's worth more to me than liter-bike performance.
On the other hand, inbuilt immobilizer and GPS to me signal that someone is overly sensitive to theft; the black market for Zero motorcycles is basically nil. This is placebo protection against idiots, which unfortunately is a losing proposition, because idiots can ruin your bike trying to steal it anyway. Most motorcycle manufacturers don't include these (rightly) because they're technology that gets outdated very easily compared to the price. They're fine as accessories.
By gps i mean a gps wayfinder, not a trackingdevice.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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By gps i mean a gps wayfinder, not a trackingdevice.
I would be embarrassed for Zero if they did this. Any attempt at including way finding software on cars has been inherently embarrassing and easily dated.
I develop software professionally so I'm too aware of the costs and risks of this. Zero should stick with a more configurable dash and data and basic control APIs over Bluetooth or CAN that they can expose securely.
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I am waiting to buy a zero until I can go to any fast charge station that cars use and charge rapidly. I'm shocked this can't be done yet. That and traction control and I'm buying
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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For a 2017 Zero sr i would like:
centerstand,
immobilizer,
Speedpilot, or possibility to set max speed all the way down to 40 or 50 km/h
Integrated gps
Integrated usb charge socket
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this list seems odd to me. I understand the immobilizer for insurance and theft.. but why do you feel the need for a centerstand, a lower max speed or the GPS?
Regarding a centerstand, if you weren't so obsessed with liter-bike performance as "normal", you'd appreciate the ability to maintain one's own bike in remote areas with a minimal set of tools or dealer support. A bike without a centerstand to me is a bike dependent on a random mechanic I can't trust. That's worth more to me than liter-bike performance.
On the other hand, inbuilt immobilizer and GPS to me signal that someone is overly sensitive to theft; the black market for Zero motorcycles is basically nil. This is placebo protection against idiots, which unfortunately is a losing proposition, because idiots can ruin your bike trying to steal it anyway. Most motorcycle manufacturers don't include these (rightly) because they're technology that gets outdated very easily compared to the price. They're fine as accessories.
you're not skoleskibe.
Centerstand is useful on some bikes... but I dont see it as useful for the zero S/SR.
Its not like you're going to be changing tires on this thing, nor can it really go out of range of a tow.
You dont need to remove the tire to plug it. It doesnt have tubes. The belt isnt a roadside change.
Shock adjustment is a possibility, but you can do that with a sidestand by lifting the bike onto it. you know.. like on a sportbike... where you have to (or atleast should) be changing spring preload for a passenger.
so without knowing a good reason... I asked.
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For a 2017 Zero sr i would like:
centerstand,
immobilizer,
Speedpilot, or possibility to set max speed all the way down to 40 or 50 km/h
Integrated gps
Integrated usb charge socket
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this list seems odd to me. I understand the immobilizer for insurance and theft.. but why do you feel the need for a centerstand, a lower max speed or the GPS?
Regarding a centerstand, if you weren't so obsessed with liter-bike performance as "normal", you'd appreciate the ability to maintain one's own bike in remote areas with a minimal set of tools or dealer support. A bike without a centerstand to me is a bike dependent on a random mechanic I can't trust. That's worth more to me than liter-bike performance.
On the other hand, inbuilt immobilizer and GPS to me signal that someone is overly sensitive to theft; the black market for Zero motorcycles is basically nil. This is placebo protection against idiots, which unfortunately is a losing proposition, because idiots can ruin your bike trying to steal it anyway. Most motorcycle manufacturers don't include these (rightly) because they're technology that gets outdated very easily compared to the price. They're fine as accessories.
you're not skoleskibe.
Centerstand is useful on some bikes... but I dont see it as useful for the zero S/SR.
Its not like you're going to be changing tires on this thing, nor can it really go out of range of a tow.
You dont need to remove the tire to plug it. It doesnt have tubes. The belt isnt a roadside change.
Shock adjustment is a possibility, but you can do that with a sidestand by lifting the bike onto it. you know.. like on a sportbike... where you have to (or atleast should) be changing spring preload for a passenger.
so without knowing a good reason... I asked.
But i am skoleskibe, and i would like a centerstand, for easy maintenance, eg finding that illusive hole in the tire, to clean the rim's occasionally, to easy check the belt and so on.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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By gps i mean a gps wayfinder, not a trackingdevice.
I would be embarrassed for Zero if they did this. Any attempt at including way finding software on cars has been inherently embarrassing and easily dated.
I develop software professionally so I'm too aware of the costs and risks of this. Zero should stick with a more configurable dash and data and basic control APIs over Bluetooth or CAN that they can expose securely.
I agree...they shouldn't put in any way finding software. But they should update the display to support Android Auto and Apple Car Play. Then you can just use your phone and project Google maps to the bike display. It could also be used for things like changing tracks while listening to music and could offer a simpler solution for customizing the display (I.e. just customize the display you want in the app and then project it). Unfortunately, this is not likely something Zero will do themselves. They will wait until some display vendor offers the capability and then maybe new bikes would get it.
Yes, you can just mount your phone....I've done that using the RAM mount and I have the busted up phone that flew off...and was then run over by cars... when I hit a large pot hole [emoji22]
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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For a 2017 Zero sr i would like:
centerstand,
immobilizer,
Speedpilot, or possibility to set max speed all the way down to 40 or 50 km/h
Integrated gps
Integrated usb charge socket
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this list seems odd to me. I understand the immobilizer for insurance and theft.. but why do you feel the need for a centerstand, a lower max speed or the GPS?
Regarding a centerstand, if you weren't so obsessed with liter-bike performance as "normal", you'd appreciate the ability to maintain one's own bike in remote areas with a minimal set of tools or dealer support. A bike without a centerstand to me is a bike dependent on a random mechanic I can't trust. That's worth more to me than liter-bike performance.
On the other hand, inbuilt immobilizer and GPS to me signal that someone is overly sensitive to theft; the black market for Zero motorcycles is basically nil. This is placebo protection against idiots, which unfortunately is a losing proposition, because idiots can ruin your bike trying to steal it anyway. Most motorcycle manufacturers don't include these (rightly) because they're technology that gets outdated very easily compared to the price. They're fine as accessories.
you're not skoleskibe.
Centerstand is useful on some bikes... but I dont see it as useful for the zero S/SR.
Its not like you're going to be changing tires on this thing, nor can it really go out of range of a tow.
You dont need to remove the tire to plug it. It doesnt have tubes. The belt isnt a roadside change.
Shock adjustment is a possibility, but you can do that with a sidestand by lifting the bike onto it. you know.. like on a sportbike... where you have to (or atleast should) be changing spring preload for a passenger.
so without knowing a good reason... I asked.
But i am skoleskibe, and i would like a centerstand, for easy maintenance, eg finding that illusive hole in the tire, to clean the rim's occasionally, to easy check the belt and so on.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
in that case, check this out: http://www.endurostar.com/ (http://www.endurostar.com/)
I keep something similar when I go touring on my sportbikes.
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By gps i mean a gps wayfinder, not a trackingdevice.
I would be embarrassed for Zero if they did this. Any attempt at including way finding software on cars has been inherently embarrassing and easily dated.
I develop software professionally so I'm too aware of the costs and risks of this. Zero should stick with a more configurable dash and data and basic control APIs over Bluetooth or CAN that they can expose securely.
++
I'm also a SW engineer by background, and fully agreed.
The vast majority of people I know, riders included, use one of the many smartphone-based Nav apps anyway... Free, realtime-traffic aware and do dynamic routing. They're not great for finding the twisties in an unfamiliar locale, but that kind of stuff could be an overlay. Certainly not something a tiny company like Zero should get involved in.
Now if Zero had standard DC charging, then integrating charging stops into routing makes sense... But again, it's not Zeor specific.
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How about this for a new concept: an electric bike that will compete with the Honda Grom (125cc) market. Maybe 20 HP, 40 mile range, 60+ mph top speed, low weight and low seat height for new/short riders. MSRP about $4000 USD. It will of course also compete with the scooter market since it'll be easy to ride and light.
That's a tiny market.
People interested in a low-range, slow-ish bike are usually looking for lowest-cost personal transportation. At the higher end, that's (some) scooters, electric or not, at the lower end, an electric bicycle can be used for pretty much all <10mi one-way trips (*) much more cheaply (**). Also, 60mph isn't needed -- 40mph is plenty for this everywhere I've seen (I'm in country where scooters outnumber motorcycles 10:1, the reverse ratio from Europe or the US), and in many places reduces the licensing/registration requirements.
Recall that any vehicle classified as motorcycle already has basic barriers to entry: You need an appropriate driver's license (not trivial to get in many regions), insurance, extra gear (most countries/regions require helmets at least) which many people regard as a hassle. People willing to go through that will mostly want a bigger/faster bike; the gateway drug to e-motorcycles will be 250cc ICE singles (in the wacky US, even 600 twins), as they are for standard ICE bikes.
Also, the cost you're suggesting is only possible with high volume manufacturing & thin margins. Zero won't get there for 3-4 years at least. Only one of the Big 4 could make such a bike work commercially.
(*) Unless you can't use bike paths or sidewalks & the only riding route is sharing crowded roads with much faster cars -- the danger outweighs the benefit in that case.
(**) For example, the RadPower RadWagon is a 750W electric cargo bicycle capable of hauling a couple of kids or ~200lbs of cargo, for $1500.
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in that case, check this out: http://www.endurostar.com/ (http://www.endurostar.com/)
I keep something similar when I go touring on my sportbikes.
That's intriguing. If you have it on hand, could you take a photo of it in use on your Zero? The belly pan of the Zero is a little odd, and I'm not sure exactly how sturdily it would hook into it without drilling a hole.
"beware of high winds" on the instructions page is not something one usually hears about a centerstand, but as a cheap compromise it seems workable.
Honestly, for road-side work, I'd really be focused on checking the belt and cleaning road debris off of the rear sprocket, and probably adjusting for alignment and belt tension.
And aside from road-side work, I'd trust a well-designed centerstand over Zero's DS/R kickstand geometry! I think they screwed that up, honestly - the balance of the bike over the pressure points it makes with the tires is too narrow. Every time I notice an S/SR kickstand, I'm annoyed that it actually is better-poised.
I've noticed in some travel stories, that the easiest way to recover from a tire blowout is to take the wheel off at the side of the road, hitch a ride to a town to get a repair, then recovering the bike later. For that scenario, there's no way to leave the bike alone on this kind of stand. But it definitely works for the basic case of getting the tire off the ground to spin.
For garage work, a centerstand just makes maintenance easier, because the front fork can swing more easily, lateral forces are balanced, the headlamp shines straight ahead instead of at an angle, and every horizontal surface inside the bike lays flat instead of at an angle.
For the DS/DSR, getting the wheel off is best done with a center lift, unlike my V-Strom with its sportbike-style front fender and irregular belly shape (without a specifically chosen sturdy bash guard). But a centerstand typically provides just enough clearance to do it with less hassle. This makes a difference.
And yes, I can go outside the range of a (convenient) tow. That's kind of my focus.
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My wish list:
- new design that includes an OEM fairing (would probably increase the range as well)
- high tech forks/brakes with real stopping power
- traction control
- corner ABS
- LED lighting
- color dash display with the option to modify the layout - or even better like suggested above: Android Auto/Apple Car Play
- quick charge option so that you can quick charge at any car charger (thanks to @Pprior for that suggestion)
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For a 2017 Zero sr i would like:
centerstand,
immobilizer,
Speedpilot, or possibility to set max speed all the way down to 40 or 50 km/h
Integrated gps
Integrated usb charge socket
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this list seems odd to me. I understand the immobilizer for insurance and theft.. but why do you feel the need for a centerstand, a lower max speed or the GPS?
Regarding a centerstand, if you weren't so obsessed with liter-bike performance as "normal", you'd appreciate the ability to maintain one's own bike in remote areas with a minimal set of tools or dealer support. A bike without a centerstand to me is a bike dependent on a random mechanic I can't trust. That's worth more to me than liter-bike performance.
On the other hand, inbuilt immobilizer and GPS to me signal that someone is overly sensitive to theft; the black market for Zero motorcycles is basically nil. This is placebo protection against idiots, which unfortunately is a losing proposition, because idiots can ruin your bike trying to steal it anyway. Most motorcycle manufacturers don't include these (rightly) because they're technology that gets outdated very easily compared to the price. They're fine as accessories.
you're not skoleskibe.
Centerstand is useful on some bikes... but I dont see it as useful for the zero S/SR.
Its not like you're going to be changing tires on this thing, nor can it really go out of range of a tow.
You dont need to remove the tire to plug it. It doesnt have tubes. The belt isnt a roadside change.
Shock adjustment is a possibility, but you can do that with a sidestand by lifting the bike onto it. you know.. like on a sportbike... where you have to (or atleast should) be changing spring preload for a passenger.
so without knowing a good reason... I asked.
But i am skoleskibe, and i would like a centerstand, for easy maintenance, eg finding that illusive hole in the tire, to clean the rim's occasionally, to easy check the belt and so on.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
in that case, check this out: http://www.endurostar.com/ (http://www.endurostar.com/)
I keep something similar when I go touring on my sportbikes.
I see that it'll do the job, but catering that with you on Daily basis, might just as Well have that centerstand. ;-)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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1) functional fenders
2) "gas tank" that isn't so wide (so that clip-on handlebars can be attached)
3) belt protection
4) fairing
5) styling that is less angular and more curvy
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LED Taillight that will fit older FX bikes.
Traction Control
Motor Options from the Factory
Added Connection and Place for a 3rd or 4th Battery on the FX - Maybe saddle bags that can hold Batteries Safe and Secure.
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---new headlight style for fx/fxs...possibly update the headlights on the other models as well.
---+1 for a more powerful onboard charger, maybe something similar to the quick charger integrated on the bike as standard.
---keep upping the torque/hp specs(faster is always better). Some of those other E-bikes got some crazy specs.
---lower price
---Graphene battery (I wish...)
Yes LED Headlight for he FX
The only way to get a lower price is to sell more bikes and decrease cost to build. Get some good video Reviews on YouTube not like motorcycle.com and the others that say it's good enough and it's ok. More videos of people's first reaction, those are awesome because we have all been there and can't help but smile.
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still not news about the 2017 models?
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still not news about the 2017 models?
The only things about the 2017 models that I have gleaned from my factory tour is that they will be using the same (H4?) headlight bulb and will look pretty much the same. Still no word on the planned 2017 model introduction date. I think Zero just concentrated on cleaning up any bugs in their system and making the Zero comply with the applicable Euro 4 and other worldwide vehicle regulations that go into effect next year - which probably consists of a lot of governmental paperwork and testing laboratory certifications. ???
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What month have they announced new models in previous years? (I can't seem to find a way to phrase that more clearly, but you know what I mean!)
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I think Zero just concentrated on cleaning up any bugs in their system and making the Zero comply with the applicable Euro 4 and other worldwide vehicle regulations that go into effect next year - which probably consists of a lot of governmental paperwork and testing laboratory certifications. ???
I wonder how many times they got trapped in governmental loops that they cant comply with because they're electric... something like "you must have emissions PPM proof from X"... but X wont write it since theres no emissions to test.
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What month have they announced new models in previous years? (I can't seem to find a way to phrase that more clearly, but you know what I mean!)
Traditionally, they introduce the new models at some motorcycle show in Europe...I think Intermot? If it is Intermot, this year it's October 5-9.
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I think I can say based on what I saw that the 2017 models will try to solve the list price commitment in a reasonable way, and also seems to work hard on some very important quality issues that people rightly note here (I think I know which but shouldn't say until it's out/confirmed). But mainly they made a point that they're trying to broaden sales and make sure they can sell everywhere. They do sound like they're aiming for larger scale for now, which means that the existing platform will just get tweaks for a little while.
For what it's worth, larger scale is strategically important to our concerns, since both parts are cheaper to order in bulk (meaning we should get better parts), and a technology investment is more justified with a larger sales base, and just like the ABS adoption, there was a large fixed cost and development time to bring something out. But it does mean that probably two more years will not feel revolutionary each time.
Naturally, they vaguely alluded to projects that spoke to many concerns on the forum, including mine. Hell, someone referred to me as "Mr. Rice" in the third person while talking to me before realizing I was that person! Spooky. Someone also said "Brian Trice", which always amuses me and is one reason I put the middle initial in. :)
I strongly suspect that just about anything we have touched on has had some kind of mockup/feasibility test; the question is how much bandwidth they have to carry those projects to market and of course which ones won't feel risky / unprofitable.
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From what I saw, I am guessing a return to an even smaller S bike to fit into the entry level commuter range.
Given what they were saying about trying to address, entry level riders I wouldn't be surprised to see a $7,999 or even
$6,999 price Model S
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Hey all. First post here, but I've been lurking around for awhile. I work for a Zero dealer, and am our resident "Zero Hero" here.
My rep keeps telling me there is some exciting stuff happening with the '17 model, but he can't tell me what. We should know more in late Oct i think.
I did manage to find a link to what appears to be someone doing some web design for Zero on their '17 models. Either they didn't change a whole lot, or they didn't give out the new specs...
https://dribbble.com/shots/2947603-Zero-Motorcycles-Jason-Kirtley-Dribbb/attachments/612472
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Since Zero reads this forum, according to Mr. Trice ;D, I hope they are working on a bike with a little more range and more storage. Looking around our parking lot at work, I think I have the shortest bike. Some of these riders have long freeway commutes, and at least one would buy a Zero today if it went 120 to 150 miles at high speed on a single charge, so 20% more than a ZF13+PT. The bikes with storage here have larger cases than I have. Some of those without cases have a bundle of stuff tied down to the seat. I think Zero has the shorter range commutes covered, but needs something to cover a county with a lot of bedroom communities spread far and wide like San Diego.
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Some of these riders have long freeway commutes, and at least one would buy a Zero today if it went 120 to 150 miles at high speed on a single charge...
I've been saying since I got my bike (end of January 2014) that I wished I'd had the option to buy a larger bike, either a naked bike or a cruiser style, that had twice the battery capacity. Yes, it would be a lot more expensive, and a bigger, heavier machine, but I'd have at least been interested, and may have sprung for a few thousand bucks more.
I realize the electric motorcycle niche is already pretty small, but I think there's room for the bike I describe.
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Some of these riders have long freeway commutes, and at least one would buy a Zero today if it went 120 to 150 miles at high speed on a single charge...
I've been saying since I got my bike (end of January 2014) that I wished I'd had the option to buy a larger bike, either a naked bike or a cruiser style, that had twice the battery capacity. Yes, it would be a lot more expensive, and a bigger, heavier machine, but I'd have at least been interested, and may have sprung for a few thousand bucks more.
I realize the electric motorcycle niche is already pretty small, but I think there's room for the bike I describe.
Me too. But I am not holding my breath for that to happen. I think both KrazyEd and Brian are likely going in the right direction. Zero definitely wants to increase unit sales and a smaller, less expensive, city bike would be one way to do that. I also suspect that Zero has their eye on CA's "carbon credit" market boondoggle and would likely be able to sell these credits for a nice bundle of cash. The more units sold, the more cash comes rolling in from the big rich polluters. ;)
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They have been announcing at the AIMExpo in Orlando recently.
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When I took the Zero factory tour, I saw a bunch of tank plastics with hard lockable storage compartments.
So, probably no more small zipper bags.
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Some of these riders have long freeway commutes, and at least one would buy a Zero today if it went 120 to 150 miles at high speed on a single charge...
I've been saying since I got my bike (end of January 2014) that I wished I'd had the option to buy a larger bike, either a naked bike or a cruiser style, that had twice the battery capacity. Yes, it would be a lot more expensive, and a bigger, heavier machine, but I'd have at least been interested, and may have sprung for a few thousand bucks more.
I realize the electric motorcycle niche is already pretty small, but I think there's room for the bike I describe.
Me too. But I am not holding my breath for that to happen. I think both KrazyEd and Brian are likely going in the right direction. Zero definitely wants to increase unit sales and a smaller, less expensive, city bike would be one way to do that. I also suspect that Zero has their eye on CA's "carbon credit" market boondoggle and would likely be able to sell these credits for a nice bundle of cash. The more units sold, the more cash comes rolling in from the big rich polluters. ;)
How do the CA carbon credits work? How many credits does Zero get for selling a Zero? What is that worth?
You are not talking about ZEV Credits right? Do they give those to motorcycles? Those credits are not really worth that much today. Maybe a 4 years ago.
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still not news about the 2017 models?
Since I was curious and I wanted a direct answer, I emailed Zero yesterday when you asked.
According to Zero, they announce all the specs for the 2017 models at the EICMA event in Milan Italy, November 10-13.
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Some of these riders have long freeway commutes, and at least one would buy a Zero today if it went 120 to 150 miles at high speed on a single charge...
I've been saying since I got my bike (end of January 2014) that I wished I'd had the option to buy a larger bike, either a naked bike or a cruiser style, that had twice the battery capacity. Yes, it would be a lot more expensive, and a bigger, heavier machine, but I'd have at least been interested, and may have sprung for a few thousand bucks more.
I realize the electric motorcycle niche is already pretty small, but I think there's room for the bike I describe.
Me too. But I am not holding my breath for that to happen. I think both KrazyEd and Brian are likely going in the right direction. Zero definitely wants to increase unit sales and a smaller, less expensive, city bike would be one way to do that. I also suspect that Zero has their eye on CA's "carbon credit" market boondoggle and would likely be able to sell these credits for a nice bundle of cash. The more units sold, the more cash comes rolling in from the big rich polluters. ;)
How do the CA carbon credits work? How many credits does Zero get for selling a Zero? What is that worth?
You are not talking about ZEV Credits right? Do they give those to motorcycles? Those credits are not really worth that much today. Maybe a 4 years ago.
California has its own system of selling "carbon credits" (that they hope the rest of the world will emulate). The system is pretty confusing to me, but from what I read in the newspaper, companies who don't pollute (or pollute very little) can sell their good deeds at a yearly auction to big polluters who then can used those "carbon credits" to offset their polluting contribution to the environment. Apparently the state splits the money with the non-polluters (I think) and then they can use those funds to do "environmental friendly" projects such as building a $100 billion high-speed rail system between SF and LA that no one will ride because the cost and travel time will be much more than flying. No doubt some of the money will also be spent on pet projects with an environment friendly spin. ::)
Personally, having large companies paying to pollute instead of having to clean up their act kind of rubs me the wrong way. >:(
And you are correct that this year the money generated by the auction kind of tanked, but the state regulators are hoping that is only temporary. ::)
I have no idea if Zero has jumped on the bandwagon, but I am pretty sure that any credits that come from their meager sales would be pretty minimal, compared with something like a solar or windmill farm , and the overhead costs of joining the game might not be worth the effort, but their credits could be of interest to a motorcycle company in the future that gets caught not meeting pollution standards on one of their models. ???
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My rep keeps telling me there is some exciting stuff happening with the '17 model, but he can't tell me what. We should know more in late Oct i think.
I did manage to find a link to what appears to be someone doing some web design for Zero on their '17 models. Either they didn't change a whole lot, or they didn't give out the new specs...
https://dribbble.com/shots/2947603-Zero-Motorcycles-Jason-Kirtley-Dribbb/attachments/612472
If that link is correct then the FX has a new frame, note no adjustment on the new rear swing arm.
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pretty sure that frame is from the 2011 Zero XU. I think that page must have been from someone's school project to design a webpage or something and has no connection to Zero at all.
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pretty sure that frame is from the 2011 Zero XU. I think that page must have been from someone's school project to design a webpage or something and has no connection to Zero at all.
That would make sense, why would zero design a new FX frame now.
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Zero is adding a CHAdeMO receiver
I was at the "Drive Electric" event over the weekend in Cupertino and there was a lot of industry there. A charger maker, I forget who, told me that Zero is buying one of there CHAdeMo receiver for DC fast charging. ;D
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Zero is adding a CHAdeMO receiver
I was at the "Drive Electric" event over the weekend in Cupertino and there was a lot of industry there. A charger maker, I forget who, told me that Zero is buying one of there CHAdeMo receiver for DC fast charging. ;D
Are you sure they weren't talking about Tony Williams at QuickChargePower.com who has been working on CHAdeMO for Zero this past winter?
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Zero is adding a CHAdeMO receiver
I was at the "Drive Electric" event over the weekend in Cupertino and there was a lot of industry there. A charger maker, I forget who, told me that Zero is buying one of there CHAdeMo receiver for DC fast charging. ;D
Are you sure they weren't talking about Tony Williams at QuickChargePower.com who has been working on CHAdeMO for Zero this past winter?
I was there, and I'm sure that's who he was talking to. Zero had no official representatives there.
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How about this for a new concept: an electric bike that will compete with the Honda Grom (125cc) market. Maybe 20 HP, 40 mile range, 60+ mph top speed, low weight and low seat height for new/short riders. MSRP about $4000 USD. It will of course also compete with the scooter market since it'll be easy to ride and light.
That's a tiny market.
People interested in a low-range, slow-ish bike are usually looking for lowest-cost personal transportation. At the higher end, that's (some) scooters, electric or not, at the lower end, an electric bicycle can be used for pretty much all <10mi one-way trips (*) much more cheaply (**). Also, 60mph isn't needed -- 40mph is plenty for this everywhere I've seen (I'm in country where scooters outnumber motorcycles 10:1, the reverse ratio from Europe or the US), and in many places reduces the licensing/registration requirements.
Recall that any vehicle classified as motorcycle already has basic barriers to entry: You need an appropriate driver's license (not trivial to get in many regions), insurance, extra gear (most countries/regions require helmets at least) which many people regard as a hassle. People willing to go through that will mostly want a bigger/faster bike; the gateway drug to e-motorcycles will be 250cc ICE singles (in the wacky US, even 600 twins), as they are for standard ICE bikes.
Also, the cost you're suggesting is only possible with high volume manufacturing & thin margins. Zero won't get there for 3-4 years at least. Only one of the Big 4 could make such a bike work commercially.
(*) Unless you can't use bike paths or sidewalks & the only riding route is sharing crowded roads with much faster cars -- the danger outweighs the benefit in that case.
(**) For example, the RadPower RadWagon is a 750W electric cargo bicycle capable of hauling a couple of kids or ~200lbs of cargo, for $1500.
Well the average 125-150cc scooter only has ~10 HP, so 20 HP is not low power, it is high-power in that marketplace. So really this is a high-end scooter (and people do pay $4-5k USD for scooters here). It differs signficantly from the Zero dirt lineup in that it is friendly to shorter and less experienced people (but similarly light weight). And just like the Grom and Z125 attract a male crowd that would never want to be seen on a scooter, so will this bike. Friendly, fast enough for short distances on the freeway and enough range for many commuters. With a cost of $6k for example, that is a big psychological difference from 12-15k. Maybe this concept doesn't work in other countries, but I like it. They have the battery and motor technology, and they need a model with a lower entry price-point.
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From what I saw, I am guessing a return to an even smaller S bike to fit into the entry level commuter range.
Given what they were saying about trying to address, entry level riders I wouldn't be surprised to see a $7,999 or even
$6,999 price Model S
I can't see the point of this. You can buy a 1 brick, a 2 brick, a 3 brick, a 4 brick and a 5 brick bike already. If you want a 1 or 2 brick bike for commuting then buy the FXS, why make a 2 brick S (or DS). To drive the S motor you need the 3 bricks.
Given the choice between a 2 brick S or an FXS, I'd get the FXS.
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Just saw this on the Zero users facebook page.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-farasis-pouch-cell-balances-power-and-energy-density/
Could we get a 10 or 20% increase in battery for 2017?
14.3 or 15.6 for a S/DS/SR/DSR and 7.3 or 7.9 for FX/FXS.
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Some speculation on the above.
If the pouches are 25% thinner then the monolith could be 5 bricks.
4 bricks are 13kw/h add the 10% in extra power and we have 14.3kw/h plus an extra brick at 3.575 = 17.875 (17.9) kw/h.
But I have no idea if they are thinner or not. I live in hope!
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Hey all. First post here, but I've been lurking around for awhile. I work for a Zero dealer, and am our resident "Zero Hero" here.
Welcome :) Champions are very important at dealers, it seems like many dealers aren't lucky enough to have one..
I did manage to find a link to what appears to be someone doing some web design for Zero on their '17 models. Either they didn't change a whole lot, or they didn't give out the new specs...
https://dribbble.com/shots/2947603-Zero-Motorcycles-Jason-Kirtley-Dribbb/attachments/612472
Looks like mostly existing ad copy, and a design concept. Don't think it has any actual 2017 info.
https://dribbble.com/shots/2947603-Zero-Electric-Motorcycles
Recent design concept for Zero Motorcycles. Zero Motorcycles is making the next steps in motorcycle evolution. They take traditional style motorcycles, put some really technological advancements into them, and out comes some amazing electric high performance bikes that are crafted in California. Had a lot of fun working on this one (especially the hero area). The model shown on this product page is the Zero FX which is a dual mode enduro bike. This allowed me to play off the idea of city and off-road trail riding throughout the design.
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Re: Farasis 32 Ah cells
I think the "25% smaller" quote refers to an older battery system that was replaced by the new cells. The 32 Ah cells are probably the same dimensions as the 2016 29 Ah cells.
A 3 brick 29 Ah bike would have similar capacity to a 4 brick 2013-2014 bike, and a 4 brick 32 Ah bike would have more capacity than a 2014 Power Tank bike. Neat!
If Zero already has samples and these can be produced in volume - Zero probably needs a couple thousand cells a day when building up for a product launch - then they might show up in the 2017 bikes. Seems a little unlikely this late in the year, but Farasis and Zero have a good relationship so who knows.
Could we get a 10 or 20% increase in battery for 2017?
10% if Zero selects the 32 Ah cells for 2017. 20% not without a larger enclosure. Six brick anyone? And then a 15 hour L1 charge? :o
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If Zero already has samples and these can be produced in volume - Zero probably needs a couple thousand cells a day when building up for a product launch - then they might show up in the 2017 bikes. Seems a little unlikely this late in the year, but Farasis and Zero have a good relationship so who knows.
10% if Zero selects the 32 Ah cells for 2017. 20% not without a larger enclosure. Six brick anyone? And then a 15 hour L1 charge? :o
How long had the 29ah cells been out for before Zero upgraded from 25ah to 29ah?
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Not sure. I don't think the 29 Ah cells had been spotted on the forum before Zero announced the 2016 bikes.
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Not sure. I don't think the 29 Ah cells had been spotted on the forum before Zero announced the 2016 bikes.
Gives us hope then.
Just shows the pressure battery companies are under to improve each year.
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Came in here to +1 the electric grom style bike. I would love a 40 mile 65MPH monkey bike with swappable batteries, and would be happy to drop $5-6K on a Zero. I can get an e-grom for $1,200 but it uses SLA batteries and...well I'd rather support Zero. With that being said my $$$ is gonna go somewhere in December - perhaps BOLT/Monday if they come up with a more ergonomic bike or GoGoro if they finally launch in the USA...not holding out on the Extrigger from Suzuki this year...maybe next.
Reasoning: Quick commute/city bike with limited highway capability that replaces the need for gas scooters, gets new riders/younger ones into the game at a lower price-point.
Ultra easy to store, bring into an elevator etc...
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Wishlist items
- Cruise Control
- Fairing/Windscreen to make highway use bearable
- Reverse
- Optional Aero based tail with storage
I don't get the drive for super fast charging. If plugging it in overnight is enough for my daily commute, then why the push for more?
My view here could be colored by the lack of quick charging stations on my typical routes.
How can cruise control not be included?
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Wishlist items
- Cruise Control
- Fairing/Windscreen to make highway use bearable
- Reverse
- Optional Aero based tail with storage
I don't get the drive for super fast charging. If plugging it in overnight is enough for my daily commute, then why the push for more?
My view here could be colored by the lack of quick charging stations on my typical routes.
How can cruise control not be included?
Throttle lock accessories are available. I've installed an Atlas.
Making a cruise control is a systems integration problem with the Sevcon, which was designed for forklifts and trucks. It has some relevant capabilities, but making a simple reliable motorcycle solution takes engineering man-years. It'll happen.
Super fast charging is amazing when you can use it. It transforms electric motorcycling from commuting to something very close to touring.
Reverse is tricky, the controller can do it at least but I chalk this up to development priorities. It would be a nice aftermarket option. I'm hoping to visit Harlan for the setup.
Everything about aerodynamics can be an option. Maybe it will be for a while.
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Reverse is tricky, the controller can do it at least but I chalk this up to development priorities. It would be a nice aftermarket option. I'm hoping to visit Harlan for the setup.
Everything about aerodynamics can be an option. Maybe it will be for a while.
Yes, yes, options please!
You could have a faring like a sports bike (where you tuck down) and a faring for commuting (where you sit upright) and backwards compatible to 2014.
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Just don't think reverse is necessary on a bike as light as a Zero. Rather any new development is geared towards aerodynamics which will give you the most "bang for the buck" in terms of range. Current Zeros are about as aerodynamic as a cinder block.
A nice, lightweight sport-touring type fairing would be perfect. It wouldn't even have to be completely filled in and full of "stuff" like on the current bikes on the market. Just something to smooth the airflow around our legs and torso would be sufficient.
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Reverse does make sense to me. I've lived for years in cities with steep hills, and also gone on gravel roads on hills, and reverse helps both situations.
Even just being able to back out of my downsloped driveway would make my daily life easier - I always perform a Y turn to back down into my driveway so I can easily get out in the morning, and I use low-speed regen and throttle to ease my way down. Being able to aim into the garage and then back out in the morning would be much more straightforward.
It's a reasonable option, just not for everybody's needs.
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Reverse is tricky, the controller can do it at least but I chalk this up to development priorities. It would be a nice aftermarket option. I'm hoping to visit Harlan for the setup.
Everything about aerodynamics can be an option. Maybe it will be for a while.
Yes, yes, options please!
You could have a faring like a sports bike (where you tuck down) and a faring for commuting (where you sit upright) and backwards compatible to 2014.
+1 There must be a lot of folks out there now with 2014+ models. Giving them some decent aero would give them a new lease of life and feel like a decent upgrade.
Due to all my bike swapping last year, I'm under strict orders that I have to keep my 2014 DS for at least two years. Almost nine months in and I'm still happy with that. My penalty for getting a 2017 model would be to write my brother-in-law's upcoming dissertation and suffer a very angry wife. An aero upgrade would circumvent that deal and give me a good boost to my range at speed. Nice! :-)
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Reverse does make sense to me. I've lived for years in cities with steep hills, and also gone on gravel roads on hills, and reverse helps both situations.
Even just being able to back out of my downsloped driveway would make my daily life easier - I always perform a Y turn to back down into my driveway so I can easily get out in the morning, and I use low-speed regen and throttle to ease my way down. Being able to aim into the garage and then back out in the morning would be much more straightforward.
It's a reasonable option, just not for everybody's needs.
This. I live in San Francisco, and I know there are a bunch of Zeros (and Zero dealers) in the area. Reverse would make my life significantly better.
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Reverse would make my life easier too. But I would put the aero dynamic faring top of the list.
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I wonder how powerful a charger you could get to fit where the current on-board charger goes. Even 2.5kw/h charger would be a big improvement.
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are there any definite known updates for 2017? i was trying to order a new Zero S and was told they're sold out.
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are there any definite known updates for 2017? i was trying to order a new Zero S and was told they're sold out.
Not that I have heard. The factory is very secretive about their new models until they are officially announced, which usually occurs at a major motorcycle show in Europe. When I visited the factory last month, it was mentioned that Zero is already road testing the pre-production 2017 models and setting up their assembly line. So I suspect that the 2017 models will be announced pretty soon, probably by the end of this month, and it is likely that shipping to dealers will commence in December, if not earlier - just in case someone needs a Christmas present. ;)
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They are definitely building the 2017 right now. I was at the factory this past Wednesday for a charger replacement on my 2014S and they said the couldn't give me a factory tour since they were building the 2017 model. There was brown paper taped up on some of the windows as well. The people I talked to were unsure of a release date.
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I could've sworn I saw someone on Facebook say something about October 19th.
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I could've sworn I saw someone on Facebook say something about October 19th.
A couple of pages back...
According to Zero, they announce all the specs for the 2017 models at the EICMA event in Milan Italy, November 10-13.
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Last year Zero announced the 2016 lineup at AIMEXPO. This year AIMEXPO starts 13 October. The word on the street is that they will announce the 2017 lineup at EICMA in Milan Italy which starts on 8 November.
It seems unlikely that Zero would skip AIMEXPO which is in Florida to travel to Europe to make an announcement at the biggest motorcycle convention of the year just to say "check out the 2017 bikes which are mostly the same as last year but with a little more range!". Not trying to set expectations too high...just sayin.
I predict the look of the bikes will be mostly unchanged (maybe a new color...@Killroy mentioned lockable storage tank) but there will be more improvements under the hood.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Oct 19 is when the USA dealers find out about the 2017s.
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In 2012 and 2014 they used Intermot to show the next year's line up. I went to see them both times.
This year Zero are not at Intermot. I guess that show didn't have the right marketing effect.
It seems EICMA is still interesting enough though. Maybe also because EICMA is annual and Intermot is bi-annual.
Next year I will be able to go to EICMA and see the new Zero models again as I am moving to Milan in January '17 :)
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Looks like I'll be in town for AIMExpo next Saturday so I think I'll take a look around. Hope Zero is there with SOMETHING...
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Zero is not listed as an exhibitor on the AIMExpo 2016 website. They've been doing a LOT of web advertising this year. Maybe they're going that route for the announcement.
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I hope they'll update the styling. I think the new Tork motorcycle from India is very nicely styled.
http://torkmotorcycles.com/ (http://torkmotorcycles.com/)
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I hope they'll update the styling. I think the new Tork motorcycle from India is very nicely styled.
http://torkmotorcycles.com/ (http://torkmotorcycles.com/)
I just followed the link and I don't think I've ever seen a progress bar just to load a web page. At first I thought it was a good idea, after all a lot of pages take longer than they should to load. After waiting for what seemed like at least a minute, I realised it was just to try and stop the user from giving up.
If their bikes have been developed like their website, then I've lost interest already.
Going back to Zero, I think the 2017 model year announcement will be very revealing. Not just in the sense of showcasing what Zero have managed to bring to market, but also what they have been able to invest in development. That will give us some idea of how strong the market is.
There are some consistent themes when it comes to what people would like to see in the future. We also know that Zero listens - developments like the touring screen, for example. If Zero are still listening, I'm hopeful we'll continue to see the things we'd like becoming a reality. Maybe not this year, but when time, money and resources allow.
I'm really looking forward to the announcement despite the fact I have no intention to buy a 2017 model. If all goes well, my 2014 will continue it's good reliability record and I'll happily keep it when it goes out of warranty. Then I'll be laughing because I'll have an extremely low cost means of getting to work. :-)
The only problem with that plan is that the DSR and SR models will keep beckoning me... I want one of those!
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I was only referring to the styling of the Tork bike. The bike itself is only good for 60 mph and 60 miles, both non-starters. I like the more rounded look and the clear visual separation of the battery from the rest. To me the Zero S/SR doesn't look bad, but it does look kind of angular, has lots of obvious plastic and attempts to disguise the battery.
I'm probably buying a 2017 Zero SR, but of course that depends on what they and others announce in the next few months.
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I was only referring to the styling of the Tork bike. The bike itself is only good for 60 mph and 60 miles, both non-starters
And cheap (125000 rupees about 1700 usd). Those combined, could be just the thing for those considering the Grom or similar. First time riders, those wanting a small second bike for goofing around, local commuters who want something more than a 49cc scooter. Throw in the minimal maintenance and easy riding of electric. Motorcycle for the masses? If that were available to me I might have gone for it instead of the FX.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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I hope they'll update the styling. I think the new Tork motorcycle from India is very nicely styled.
http://torkmotorcycles.com/ (http://torkmotorcycles.com/)
the front looks okay, but the seat and back are aweful ;D just my taste ;)
but zero could make an better looking bike, or some nice aero-parts, i would buy them
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hope a 10kwh battery for the fxs
hope a fxsR withe the same engine that on the SR
that will be fun
ABS diconnecteable to be able to do stoping and weeling :-)
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hope a 10kwh battery for the fxs
hope a fxsR withe the same engine that on the SR
that will be fun
ABS diconnecteable to be able to do stoping and weeling :-)
I doubt there will be a 2017 10kWh FXS.
That would require a 5kWh brick, which would lead to a 20kWh monolith.
However a 7.5kWh FXS might be possible if rumors about a 15kWh monolith are true.
I think we are a good few years away from a 5kWh brick though...
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hope a 10kwh battery for the fxs
hope a fxsR withe the same engine that on the SR
that will be fun
ABS diconnecteable to be able to do stoping and weeling :-)
You can disconnect the ABS. Per ride, it can be done on the console. Longer term, pull the fuse.
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I was only referring to the styling of the Tork bike. The bike itself is only good for 60 mph and 60 miles, both non-starters
And cheap (125000 rupees about 1700 usd). Those combined, could be just the thing for those considering the Grom or similar. First time riders, those wanting a small second bike for goofing around, local commuters who want something more than a 49cc scooter. Throw in the minimal maintenance and easy riding of electric. Motorcycle for the masses? If that were available to me I might have gone for it instead of the FX.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
Why are 60 mph and 60 mile range non-starters? Certainly for a $12k USD bike, but the average commute time of 25 minutes in the US puts this range within the range of the 'average' commuter. Now a bike with 20 HP could hit 70+ MPH, which I think would be needed to get on to the freeway safely, so this particular bike would be underpowered for the US (India has very few high speed highways from what I understand). The other thing that came to mind thinking about a grom-like concept bike was that less battery weight could put the center of gravity of the bike much lower in the frame (versus a Zero S), making the bike more nimble and feel even lighter. It would have awesome handling.
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I hope they'll update the styling. I think the new Tork motorcycle from India is very nicely styled.
http://torkmotorcycles.com/ (http://torkmotorcycles.com/)
Looks like it runs a 3.4kW battery at almost 300lb, I highly doubt it can do claimed 60 miles on a charge even in the city.
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Why are 60 mph and 60 mile range non-starters? Certainly for a $12k USD bike, but the average commute time of 25 minutes in the US puts this range within the range of the 'average' commuter. Now a bike with 20 HP could hit 70+ MPH, which I think would be needed to get on to the freeway safely, so this particular bike would be underpowered for the US (India has very few high speed highways from what I understand). The other thing that came to mind thinking about a grom-like concept bike was that less battery weight could put the center of gravity of the bike much lower in the frame (versus a Zero S), making the bike more nimble and feel even lighter. It would have awesome handling.
For me. I want to be able to ride for a couple hours on country roads at 55-65 mph.
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Looks like it runs a 3.4kW battery at almost 300lb, I highly doubt it can do claimed 60 miles on a charge even in the city.
Range specs from all manufacturers besides Zero (and possibly Tesla) are highly suspect.
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Any chance of another thread for the Tork discussion? I see updates to this and get overexcited thinking there's some Zero 2017 news.
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Zero is not listed as an exhibitor on the AIMExpo 2016 website. They've been doing a LOT of web advertising this year. Maybe they're going that route for the announcement.
It may not be very up to date.
I note that H/D and Kawasaki are also not listed. Which would be notable exceptions...
Though I can't see Zero on the floor plan either...
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I asked Zero on Facebook if they are attending this year "INTERMIT" fair in cologne germany, but so far received no answer.
I really hope the new 2017 models will have a more faster charging system installed and that the ABS system gets improved.
If all things go well, i will receive my motorbike drivers license by the end of next week. Fingers crossed that i pass the practical tests. 8)
Can´t wait to order a 2017 Zero then.
Greetings from germany
Scorpion
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I suppose you mean Intermot? That has already passed ;)
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Yup, it was the Intermot not the Intermit (Typo).
Yes its passed, and without zero. But not sure if the Intermot is that important or not.
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With 220.000 visitors it isn't a small player and the EU HQ isn't that far. I'm surprised that they didn't attend.
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Douglas Motorcycles in San Bernardino, CA, told me today that the 2017 Zero models will be revealed on October 19, 2016. Can anyone confirm?
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Douglas Motorcycles in San Bernardino, CA, told me today that the 2017 Zero models will be revealed on October 19, 2016. Can anyone confirm?
That's the date they tell dealers when they can order 2017s and the prices. Dealers may also find out specs.
The 2017 models won't be announced to the public until EICMA.
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Ok, today i passed the practical driving test for the big motorcycles. 8) (In germany it´s called class "A")
Indeed i only decided to get this license due to Zero motorcycles. Usually i don´t like machines that make big noises and produce gasoline smell.
With Zero i now see these machines in a completely different way.
Can´t wait for the 2017 lineup.
I really hope they make the cableways cleaner, since on the DS they really could block the view to the display.
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Ok, today i passed the practical driving test for the big motorcycles. 8) (In germany it´s called class "A")
Can´t wait for the 2017 lineup.
Congratulations on passing your driving test, I'm sure that feels great!
I too can't wait for the 2017 lineup and see what Zero has in store for us. I take it you are interested in the DS?
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I am currently more interested in the SR. But this is only based on the youtube reviews i have seen so far. The sitting position and the seat is often reviewed as more comfy on the SR. From design my feeling is that the DS looks more "agressive" than the "harmless" SR.
If the weather is good this friday i probably can test-drive a DS and a SR to make a decision based on my preferences.
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I took a ZERO S for a test ride the other day in Sydney. They would have given me the SR but only had an S available. Well... even the S is awesome! I sooo want one.
I'm happy with the range and power of 2016... though I'd really like to see LED headlights for 2017. Seems a shame to have a bike focused on efficiency just to 'waste' power through old fashioned incandescent globes (even though it probably wouldn't make much difference to range, it would just be cooler!)
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I am currently more interested in the SR. But this is only based on the youtube reviews i have seen so far. The sitting position and the seat is often reviewed as more comfy on the SR. From design my feeling is that the DS looks more "agressive" than the "harmless" SR.
If the weather is good this friday i probably can test-drive a DS and a SR to make a decision based on my preferences.
I too am interested in the SR. Got to demo one a year ago and loved it. The DS is not my style but even if it was the seat height is just too high for me.
Let us know how you liked the DS and the SR, after you take them for a spin.
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I took a ZERO S for a test ride the other day in Sydney. They would have given me the SR but only had an S available. Well... even the S is awesome! I sooo want one.
I'm happy with the range and power of 2016... though I'd really like to see LED headlights for 2017. Seems a shame to have a bike focused on efficiency just to 'waste' power through old fashioned incandescent globes (even though it probably wouldn't make much difference to range, it would just be cooler!)
There is no describing the feeling of riding one of these bikes. Awesome is definitely a word I would use also. I'd also like to see LED headlights.
A few more weeks and then we get to see what the 2017's are all about!
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I too would like to see an LED light stock. As the bikes go further on a charge, it actually makes more sense than it did before. When the range was short, the run time wasn't long enough to have any noticeable impact. And it isn't highway travel you will see a difference. It's slow city riding. Because its a factor of time. For 200 miles city riding at 35 mph, that's 6 hours of riding you can do now with a power tank. (I've actually gone 237 miles on a single charge on my 2015 around the Bay Area on beach frontal surface streets)
6 hours of a headlight using 30 watts instead of 60 watts saves 30 watts. Over 6 hours that is 180 watt hours. At slow speeds getting 60 watt hours per mile that is actually 3 miles!! So instead of 200 miles range you would have 203 miles range!
However with the highway scenario of going 70 mph for 70 miles, or 1 hour of travel you would save 30 watt hours with an LED headlight. At those speeds you are getting about 120 watt hours per mile. 30 watt hours would get you another 1/4 mile, or instead of 70 miles, you could go 70.25 miles.
Is that worth it? I think so at this point. Plus it is the coolness factor that is important. A high end bike should have LED lights. And for certain an electric motorcycle should. But who knows if it will come for 2017 or not. We have about 3 weeks to go to find out. If it doesn't happen, remember you can always buy a $35 bulb from Amazon and replace it yourself of you want that extra quarter mile of range! :)
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Anyone successfully chew the ear off some dealers who may/may not have gotten some '17 info yesterday? :)
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I'm calling mine tomorrow for a possible trade in. Who knows what a 2017 will bring..
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Ugh, the announcement is killing me :o. Last year it was October 15th to announce the 2016s. Funny thing is, I probably won't buy a 2017 cause I'm happy with my 2014. But I'm liking my bike so much, I am super excited to see what is next ;D. Can't remember a time I was so happy about something since I was a kid waiting to open a Christmas present!
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i like so much you comment, we are all the same impatient to see the new model, we are all big kids ;-)
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maybe they are waitting for thsi battery ?
https://checkthescience.com/news/1649388-spanish-company-graphenano-claims-graphene-polymer-batteries-triple-energy-density-lithium-ion-and-commercialization-end-2016
do someone know where we can buy some?
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Same here! I've been following this thread every single day for a few weeks just to see you guys talking about it, and I made an account just for this comment ;D
I probably won't even get one because I can't really afford it, but I'm excited for the 2017 update!
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Post #130 in this thread:
still not news about the 2017 models?
Since I was curious and I wanted a direct answer, I emailed Zero yesterday when you asked.
According to Zero, they announce all the specs for the 2017 models at the EICMA event in Milan Italy, November 10-13.
Just have to wait until November 10th or so.
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Same here! I've been following this thread every single day for a few weeks just to see you guys talking about it, and I made an account just for this comment ;D
I probably won't even get one because I can't really afford it, but I'm excited for the 2017 update!
Me too!
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maybe they are waitting for thsi battery ?
https://checkthescience.com/news/1649388-spanish-company-graphenano-claims-graphene-polymer-batteries-triple-energy-density-lithium-ion-and-commercialization-end-2016
do someone know where we can buy some?
As much as I would love it, there's no chance these batteries could be tested enough for Zero to put in there 2017 bikes, they haven't even hit the market yet, and when/if they do they may not have the claimed attributes. They don't want a Samsung note 7 incident.
Best we can hope for (that we know of) is the 32ah pouches from farasis. But maybe 2018 will be a breakout year. But then, 30kw at todays prices, would be an expensive bike (prices per kw/h with these graphine cells expected to be the same as now).
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I'd hate to buy a Zero or EV and then suddenly a new breakthrough battery chemistry with more capacity kw/kg, quicker charging and low cost appears. ... But I'd say Li-ion is here to stay for at least a little while... what do you guys think?
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I'd hate to buy a Zero or EV and then suddenly a new breakthrough battery chemistry with more capacity kw/kg, quicker charging and low cost appears. ... But I'd say Li-ion is here to stay for at least a little while... what do you guys think?
Graphine batteries have just hit consumer products (chinese company). Only offering 15 minute charge time as it's advantage. Size is about the same as now, but this is only the first one to market. Expect better to follow.
We are close to exactly that, a minor revolution.
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check out the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt-e__WWJXA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt-e__WWJXA)
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I'd hate to buy a Zero or EV and then suddenly a new breakthrough battery chemistry with more capacity kw/kg, quicker charging and low cost appears.
Me too! ;) That would be the worst feeling in the world if that happened after just buying a 2016 model!
If that were to happen, do you guys think Zero will make it possible to easily upgrade li-ion to graphene?
The Spanish (article) claim 3 times energy density, while the Chinese (video) claim a faster ~15 times charging rate. I'd be happy with either one.
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Guys there is a 0.00000% chance of these batteries appearing in any mass production EV next year, and probably a 0.0% chance in 2018. These things take tons of testing in the application they will be used in, in the environments they will be used in, in the real world use cases they will be used in. If you recently heard about the rush to market (2.5 years of testing still) and the Galaxy Note 7 still had battery issues.
I would be willing to bet all electric vehicle manufacturers will take a cautious approach and extend their own testing for a longer period before exposing the consumer to a fire risk that isn't for all practical purposes considered 0%.
Because of this I'd be willing to bet that other car manufacturers keep the current battery chemistry another year (perhaps increase capacity through increasing size). So for Zero, anyone thinking of not buying an end of year deal on a 2016, I'd say the chance is pretty low there will be any battery change in 2017, even the newly announced 32 Ah Farasis cells. I don't even think they are being mass manufactured yet, let alone out long enough to have any testing done with.
After the cost of recall to Samsung, I would bet the rush to new battery technology to any battery powered device just got a reality check as far as a timeline. Advancements will come, but they will be slower, and when we finally get them, we can rest easy they have been put through a very long and durable testing cycle in every corner case scenario you can imagine, which is good for us.
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We are at that stage where "graphene" has become a marketing buzz word. Think about the way every other product on the shelf says "organic". What does that even mean? Uhh, good question. Is every manufacturer adhering to the same definition? Of course not! The marketing team figures out people are buying stuff that says organic on the box and then figure out a way to justify slapping it on as many products as possible.
Well, hello age of graphene! As we all know, graphene is just a sheet of carbon a single atom thick. And of course, graphite is also just carbon atoms....so...where there is graphite you almost certainly have SOME graphene. And since many different lithium ion batteries use graphite for the anode it would be hard to argue against any manufacturer that claimed their battery used graphene.
However, there are legitimate reasons to get excited about the prospects of using graphene in a targeted manor to improve the performance of lithium ion batteries.
I'd hate to buy a Zero or EV and then suddenly a new breakthrough battery chemistry with more capacity kw/kg, quicker charging and low cost appears. ... But I'd say Li-ion is here to stay for at least a little while... what do you guys think?
I think lithium ion batteries are going to be around for a VERY long time. As you might expect, there is a scientific reason why everyone is so focused on lithium for batteries and it has everything to do with lithium's placement on the periodic table which gives it an extremely high theoretical limit for energy density. The problem with lithium is that raw lithium is extremely chemically reactive. One popular combo is lithium iron phosphate which is used as the cathode and the anode is graphite. In total there is an EXTREMELY small amount of lithium in today's batteries. The Zero battery, for example, probably has somewhere around 900 grams of lithium in a ZF13 battery pack. One of the goals of a battery engineer today is figure out ways to put more lithium in without making it unstable (think smoke, fire or explosion....yes, the note 7 is getting all the headlines these days but that is not likely a result of the chemistry but more likely a manufacturing defect).
However, just because lithium is here to stay doesn't mean we won't see a break through. But that break through is likely to come in the form of significantly improving on the density of lithium in a battery through the replacement of other components in the battery with new materials (e.g. graphene) rather than through a totally different chemistry that doesn't use lithium at all.
All that being said....I have been told by Zero and Farasis engineers that the Zero battery pack has had graphene in it for a few years now (I want to say since 2013 but I can't remember the exact year that I was told). Given all that I stated above you can take that with a grain of salt but given that it was said in a private conversation and not plastered in a news article or marketing brochure I am currently of the position that it is likely being used in a legitimate targeted approach to improve the performance of the battery.
I'd hate to buy a Zero or EV and then suddenly a new breakthrough battery chemistry with more capacity kw/kg, quicker charging and low cost appears. ... But I'd say Li-ion is here to stay for at least a little while... what do you guys think?
Graphine batteries have just hit consumer products (chinese company). Only offering 15 minute charge time as it's advantage. Size is about the same as now, but this is only the first one to market. Expect better to follow.
We are close to exactly that, a minor revolution.
It sounds promising but I'm always skeptical until an actual product is released that uses the battery and the claims can be verified. However, it's worth noting that they discuss a 4800 mAh battery that can be charged in 15 minutes. Although it's not specified, I'll assume that is for a singe 3.7V cell which would equate to ~20 Wh which would require 80 kW to charge in 15 minutes which means a 4C charge rate. That's awesome for a cell phone which just uses a single cell. But it doesn't really matter as much when you have a bunch of cells wired up together in a pack. Although currently limited to 1C, word on the street is that the ZF13 could handle a 5C charge rate but requires additional testing and certification before that capability could be utilized.
maybe they are waitting for thsi battery ?
https://checkthescience.com/news/1649388-spanish-company-graphenano-claims-graphene-polymer-batteries-triple-energy-density-lithium-ion-and-commercialization-end-2016 (https://checkthescience.com/news/1649388-spanish-company-graphenano-claims-graphene-polymer-batteries-triple-energy-density-lithium-ion-and-commercialization-end-2016)
do someone know where we can buy some?
As much as I would love it, there's no chance these batteries could be tested enough for Zero to put in there 2017 bikes, they haven't even hit the market yet, and when/if they do they may not have the claimed attributes. They don't want a Samsung note 7 incident.
Best we can hope for (that we know of) is the 32ah pouches from farasis. But maybe 2018 will be a breakout year. But then, 30kw at todays prices, would be an expensive bike (prices per kw/h with these graphine cells expected to be the same as now).
Zero is at a very interesting point in their companies growth. They have finally reached a size where they are making enough bikes per year to get the attention of main stream suppliers (e.g. bosch and pirelli). But that also means that to make that many bikes they have to make large buy commitments that likely cover multiple years worth of bikes. A company needs that kind of commitment in order to be able to justify the production of the cells. They can't just take it on faith and build a bunch of cells and then hope someone buys them. Bottom line is that the 29Ah cells were introduced to the Zero lineup in 2016 so my money is on 2017 model's still using the 29Ah cells and not the just announced 32 Ah cells. It's possible that we could never see the 32 Ah cells because even though the 32 Ah cells were just announced it's possible that Zero could be inking the deal today with Farasis today that puts cells that are more than 32 Ah in the 2018 bikes....or Zero could be testing a cell from Farasis or another supplier that gives us the next big leap in energy density...
But that doesn't mean all hope is lost....there is another battery pack change we can hope for...
First of all....given Zero's track record I give this less than 1% chance of happening in 2017 but that said...Zero could continue to use the 29 Ah cells but increase the pack voltage from 116V max to 150V max going from a 28s4p (for the ZF13) to a 36s4p. That would result in a pack with 17 kWh max. I haven't been able to find spec sheets for the newer Farasis cells but the 25 Ah cells used in the 2014 bikes are 6mm thick. Assuming the 29 Ah cells are about the same thickness that would only add about 4 inches in height to the monolith. However, some of the added height could be recovered by optimizing the packaging inside the monolith. The result would be a pretty significant increase in range. It's hard to say exactly how much because the change in voltage would have a ripple affect throughout the design (different controller, different charging setup, different gearing) but I have calculated that you could conservatively expect to see over 100 miles range on the highway at 70 mph and over 200 miles range in the city....and this is without a power tank.
But that probably won't happen...namely because...as best as I can tell...customers that would like a SEVCON Gen4 size 4 controller that can support 150V are asked to "contact SEVCON" and there is no mention of a size 6 controller that supports 150V. But we can hope....at least until 8 November. If not for 2017 then maybe for 2018...especially if the new merger (http://www.sevcon.com/sevcon-targets-accelerated-growth-with-acquisition-of-bassi-srl.aspx) between SEVCON and Bassi is able to result in some lower cost integrated controller/charger solutions (not necessarliy a single package that handles controlling the motor and charging the battery but at least integrated and designed to work together to make Zero's job of putting it in the bike a lot easier).
If anyone wants to understand a little more about the batteries that go into our bikes here are two really great videos that will explain just about everything you ever wanted to know.
This first one is cued up to minute 6 where the presenter specifically answers the question "Lithium, or other chemistries?".
https://youtu.be/ISEzvNevyck?t=369 (https://youtu.be/ISEzvNevyck?t=369)
And here is a second video by the same presenter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjixld5W3E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjixld5W3E)
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This is the older Luke Workman video where he talks about solid state electrolytes and the weight benefits and improved safety and the (maybe) 10X energy density (starts about the 4 min mark). I don't think Zero uses graphene yet as they still have the same pouch (liquid electrolyte I assume) cells (please no offense to you Mr Wilson I just don't see it mentioned anywhere). It gets hard to get a full truthful answer out of them because they have to guard their "secret sauce" which I understand, hey its a business.
I could see Zero keeping the same basic platform through 2018 that would be a 5 year run with improvements big and small along the way. That being said I'm very excited to see the new bikes.
Been posted before but here it is again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZg237IUdFk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZg237IUdFk)
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The Zeros are getting too heavy for me, so I am hoping there are weight reductions. I have never been one to try and make a touring bike out of these. A bike at 325 lbs. with a combined range of 150 miles and top sustained speed of 75 mph would be perfect for me. The huge gains in lithium battery technology are probably behind us.
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I sometimes fly model helicopters, and the electric ones fly a lot better since the switch from nimh to lipo a few years back. Since damage is a lot less with model aircraft you tend to see new tech early, especially with the Taiwanese and Chinese shops. They sell 'classic' lipo charging up to 4c and graphene that charges up to 15c, with a significant rise in energy density in the graphene cells. But to be honest, i've seen (and had ;) ) my share of in-flight explosions... wouldn't want to have an on-road lipo fire, especially when you see where you're sitting :D
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This is the older Luke Workman video where he talks about solid state electrolytes and the weight benefits and improved safety and the (maybe) 10X energy density (starts about the 4 min mark). I don't think Zero uses graphene yet as they still have the same pouch (liquid electrolyte I assume) cells (please no offense to you Mr Wilson I just don't see it mentioned anywhere). It gets hard to get a full truthful answer out of them because they have to guard their "secret sauce" which I understand, hey its a business.
What?!?! How dare you! It's on the internet, I just wrote it there. The internet is never wrong!
Haha...jk of course...no offense taken.
Yes, the current chemistry is still using liquid electrolyte. Not sure if this is what you meant but using graphene does not (necessarily) mean replacing the liquid electrolyte. I have definitely seen that video before. The company Luke is talking about is actually Sakti3 (not Sakti5 as he says in the video). He is definitely right about their stuff being exciting though.
For the most part coming up with a new battery chemistry is a matter of trial and error. Smart engineers make educated guesses based on the engineering challenges at hand (the videos I posted go into a lot of examples of this) but in the end it's still trial and error. Sakti3 actually used super computing to come up with their battery design which allowed them to "try" hundreds of thousands of combinations before they ever built a battery. Then they picked the best candidates and gave them a try. They claim to have found a winning combination and started working on trying to scale. There was a lot of big name investment from companies like Dyson and Microsoft before Dyson ended up buying them outright. I personally view Dyson's purchase of the company as a HUGE boost to the credibility of the claims. Tesla aren't the only ones building a battery factory....Dyson is supposedly building a battery factory of his own in Michigan to start production of the solid state batteries. I expect we won't hear much more about them until they get close to releasing a product...assuming the claims are real and they end up actually building a battery on a mass scale. However, expect it to take at least 5 years before the technology makes it's way into a production EV.
A couple guesses for the 2017 lineup....
IPM motors across the board seems to be a gimmee....no more SPM for the FX and S/DS ZF9.8. The IPM is easier and cheaper to build (and better performance...win, win, win) so it just makes sense that they get rid of the SPM motor.
2013 and 2014 were the years of the ZF11.4. 2015 brought us the ZF12.5. Terry is probably right, 2016 and 2017 use ZF13. I'm sure a lot of people will be disappointed if Terry is right (except maybe anyone who just bought or is thinking of buying a 2016) and there isn't an increase in battery capacity for 2017 but the good news is it means 2018 will likely be a gimmee year for another battery capacity increase....either the 32 Ah cells or something else. They should at least up the power tank from 27 Ah cells to 29 Ah cells (ZF3.3 instead of ZF2.8 ). Even though I would personally rather have faster charging than the extra battery it's kinda BS that 2016 kept the 27 Ah cells for the power tank.
Wishlist....not counting the boost to 150V which I already covered and likely won't happen...then again....I doubt anything on my wish list will make it into the 2017 lineup.
Updated App.
I like how I can customize a ridding screen with stuff like motor/controller/battery temps, amps, kwatts....why can't I add voltage and cell balance?? It seems like it would be nice to be able to monitor those during a ride...especially since you can get sudden huge drops in battery percentage (I have seen my bike suddenly drop from 14% to 0%) if the cell balance gets too far out of whack (on 2014 bikes at least...I can't vouch for whether that is still a problem on newer bikes or not but I have heard that its not....but it would still be good to be able to monitor from the ridding screen).
I would also like to be able to use the app to record data that can be exported after the fact. Hit a 'trip' button and anything you can put on the ridding screen (plus battery voltage and cell balance) gets recorded. It would be really awesome if the app could present the information to the user graphically too but if it could at least be exported then users could generate their own graphs. I think it would help people better understand all the affects to range of various different conditions like speed, wind, ambient temperature, regen settings etc. I know I would love to have it for my own range experimentation. The app also needs to be a lot more consistent in connecting, and staying connected, to the bike bluetooth.
WiFi enabled bike. Bluetooth is great when you are standing close by but if the bike could connect to my home WiFi (when plugged in) then you could monitor the bike from anywhere in the house (or potentially even when you aren't home but the bike is). This could also enable remote start/stop of charging or even setting charging to start/stop at a certain time to take advantage of the best rates. Charge statistics could also be collected (similar to the ride stats mentioned above) which would allow you to see input voltage (was the bike getting 120V AC from that outlet or only 115V??), charging amps and watts over time and overlay with battery percentage, voltage and capacity. It would be awesome to see it all graphically either through the app or a desktop app or browser interface. There are other ways to do it (JuiceBox for example) but it would be awesome to see it built into the bike so that it could be easily correlated with the bike battery info (percent etc.).
Flexible charging up to 12kW with onboard charging and up to 50kW DC fast charging capable...without losing the storage tank or ability to have a power tank.
This is a pretty tall order. Particularly without taking the tank space. Based on available charge stations in 2016 it doesn't make sense to have more than 12kW of onboard charging but that would allow riders to max out a 50 amp 240V outlet and take full advantage of the plethora of 6.6kW public chargers. If not 12kW then at least 6.6kW...seriously...obviously 3.8kW is a lot better than stock 1.3kW but it's almost 2017...a bike with factory options should at least be able to hit 6.6kW charging. At the very least I would like to see them open up the charge fuse from 100AMP to 200AMP and allow 2C charging through the aux port.
Better aerodynamics....dead horse beaten...
I have a lot of other nits...LED headlight/turn signals....helmet lock....full color LED dash display with Android Auto/Apple Car Play support and more ability to customize so I don't need to use my phone to get info like all temps, amps, etc...cruise control....reverse....parking brake....improved top box mount that doesn't sit on the plastic tail piece for support...side cases that can be installed and removed without leaving behind an ugly rack (like the MV Agusta Turismo Veloce)....tire hugger with turn signals and license mount instead of the stalk they use today....more stuff I can't think of right now....
I find it hard to believe that Zero would have skipped AIMExpo and gone to EICMA if they didn't have SOMETHING exciting to announce this year.
16 days is gonna feel like a lifetime....tick...tock........tick........tock................tick................................tock
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Wow tall orders they are. ;-@
Agreed 6kw charging, cruisecontrol, tirehugger or rear fender wifi conectivity would also be nice.
I personally would also like to be able to see the lesser (range, temp and whatnot) caracters on the instrument at night under driving conditions like in City with streetllights and oncoming trafic. The caracters in the instrument is just too small to easily read under "combat conditions"
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Quote: What?!?! How dare you! It's on the internet, I just wrote it there. The internet is never wrong!
LOL I forgot the first rule of the internet. :)
+1 on your more info from your bike.
I really wonder if they will ever up the voltage too.
As much as I hate to say it I don't think any of the AC charging stations will cut it for the full mass market. They will want DC fast charging with 50-100 miles in 15 mins at least. That will need increased voltage if I understand it right.
I also hope Terry is wrong about more battery (but something tells me he might have a real good idea about a lot of the details)
I guess we'll see soon enough.
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The problem with all of our wishes are that they all cost money - and lots of it. ::) Unlike Honda, Kawasaki, BMW, etc, which have automobile divisions to fill in their motorcycle profit gaps and lots of well-paid engineers to help design new products and features, Zero is still trying to make a living building a very niche product, with nothing but private investors to prop up the business. What they want to do is to expand the market and sell more electric motorcycles. That will require cutting costs and getting their prices down to ICE levels.
Most of the big ideas us enthusiasts would like to see would cost big bucks and inflate Zero prices into Ego territory. No one ever got rich or stayed in business all that long marketing $40,000 motorcycles to the world's consumers, except maybe Harley Davidson. And speaking of H-D, whatever happened to the LiveWire? ::)
Anyway, I am pretty sure Zero's focus is to make their products less expensive, while still meeting all of the world's constantly changing various regulatory requirements. I don't see higher voltage, faster on-board charging, a larger chassis, or expensive high-tech and unproven batteries to be on their immediate list of goals. I think they will just keep plugging along, refining their bikes every year and trying to become a mainstream vehicle manufacturer. Personally, I'll be very happy if they kill all of the random reliability bugs in their product - and keep adding new dealers. :)
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In the meantime as we are all waiting for the news about the 2017 lineup, here is my short insight review of a test-drive with a Zero DS 2016 model.
1. Seating position is comfy and high, so i had a perfect overview over the traffic
2. The DS looks "more motorbike-like" than the SR. I think this is probably due to the bigger front tire. I had the feeling that other cars had more respect for the DS, so filtering though traffic was not a problem at all.
3. Control of the DS was a charm. Much easier than with clutch. The driver really has direct control about how much power is transferred to the wheels. Thus the driver can concentrate more on the traffic situation, rather than on shifting.
4. No clutch - ok, i just made my drivers license last week, so for me it was not a big deal to forget about the clutch. I think without it you can concentrate more on the driving situation which contributes to a more relaxing driving experience.
5. No noise at all at traffic lights. However there is noise during driving - the electric engine noise. At the start i was a bit disappointed that this noise is clearly hearable even if you drive with less speed, but i think i could get used to it.
6. No vibrations at all. This sure is good for the body. I remember i read an article some time ago that constant vibrations are not good for the human body, especially for the wrists.
7. Performance is nice, but not great. So probably a DSR would satisfy my needs.
Fazit: Now i really look for a DSR 2017 model. Or maybe a 2016 model if 2017 is not having the big plus items on board.
This Friday i will test-drive a Zero S, just to check the lower seating position. Curious what i think after the test-drive.
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...
16 days is gonna feel like a lifetime....tick...tock........tick........tock................tick................................tock
Indeed !!!
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4. No clutch - ok, i just made my drivers license last week, so for me it was not a big deal to forget about the clutch. I think without it you can concentrate more on the driving situation which contributes to a more relaxing driving experience.
6. No vibrations at all. This sure is good for the body. I remember i read an article some time ago that constant vibrations are not good for the human body, especially for the wrists.
Fazit: Now i really look for a DSR 2017 model. Or maybe a 2016 model if 2017 is not having the big plus items on board.
This Friday i will test-drive a Zero S, just to check the lower seating position. Curious what i think after the test-drive.
I personally love the no clutch feature, and one of the big reasons I am so into the Zero motorcycles. I never liked shifting, and having to worry about that when riding was NOT fun for me when I was just learning.
I have carpal tunnel in both wrists, but my right hand is definitely worse since that is my dominant hand. The no vibration for me is like a dream. My hands would begin to go numb riding an ICE bike, and sometimes I would only be into my ride for 15min. I would constantly have to shake out my hands at stop lights...UGH. I love no vibrations and my wrists do too. :P
Definitely let us know how you enjoy the S after test riding it.
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In the meantime as we are all waiting for the news about the 2017 lineup, here is my short insight review of a test-drive with a Zero DS 2016 model.
1. Seating position is comfy and high, so i had a perfect overview over the traffic
2. The DS looks "more motorbike-like" than the SR. I think this is probably due to the bigger front tire. I had the feeling that other cars had more respect for the DS, so filtering though traffic was not a problem at all.
3. Control of the DS was a charm. Much easier than with clutch. The driver really has direct control about how much power is transferred to the wheels. Thus the driver can concentrate more on the traffic situation, rather than on shifting.
4. No clutch - ok, i just made my drivers license last week, so for me it was not a big deal to forget about the clutch. I think without it you can concentrate more on the driving situation which contributes to a more relaxing driving experience.
5. No noise at all at traffic lights. However there is noise during driving - the electric engine noise. At the start i was a bit disappointed that this noise is clearly hearable even if you drive with less speed, but i think i could get used to it.
6. No vibrations at all. This sure is good for the body. I remember i read an article some time ago that constant vibrations are not good for the human body, especially for the wrists.
7. Performance is nice, but not great. So probably a DSR would satisfy my needs.
Fazit: Now i really look for a DSR 2017 model. Or maybe a 2016 model if 2017 is not having the big plus items on board.
This Friday i will test-drive a Zero S, just to check the lower seating position. Curious what i think after the test-drive.
If you can hear the electric motor when riding you need to wear ear plugs to protect your hearing. Wind noise (which can be extremely loud at high speeds) while riding any motorcycle will damage your hearing eventually. Just try to have a conversation with a long-time Harley rider. ;)
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It seems to me that Zero is waiting to see how the political winds shift before making formal pricing announcements.
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It seems to me that Zero is waiting to see how the political winds shift before making formal pricing announcements.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8e/69/e2/8e69e22eccea7a156390aaec49d45519.jpg)
caption: Zero Motorcycles prepares for the US Election results
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I just found this on the Internet:
http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/ (http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/)
The release date of the article is odd though.
What do you think of the "new" design?
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This article from 2013 has the same picture: https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2013/04/30/zero-motorcycles-moves-headquarters-expands-operations-by-26/
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Ok, thats good. So it is an old article. I do not like the design.
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Model year 2017 does not look different to me than model year 2016. If your wishlist idea reduces part count, is easier to automate for manufacture, and provides the same performance that Zero has listed for last year's model but for lower weight and consumer cost this year... make a bingo card for the 10th, and play along! :)
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It seems to me that Zero is waiting to see how the political winds shift before making formal pricing announcements.
It seems to me that we are just making things up now, not sure how the 2 are even remotely related at all.
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I hope they put a better filter on the motor.
This will reduce the electric noise from the motor.
It will make the driving experience on specially low speed better.
At low speed you can hear this noise. Its like noise from an frequency converter.
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It seems to me that Zero is waiting to see how the political winds shift before making formal pricing announcements.
It seems to me that we are just making things up now, not sure how the 2 are even remotely related at all.
I guess you could say that the price of the 2017 models might be affected by Congress. They would have to extend the current 10% income tax electric motorcycle credit for next year. If they don't the credit will expire. If I recall correctly, Zero tends to include that credit when quoting their retail prices. ???
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I hope they put a better filter on the motor.
This will reduce the electric noise from the motor.
It will make the driving experience on specially low speed better.
At low speed you can hear this noise. Its like noise from an frequency converter.
I like it. It sounds futuristic and reminds me of "The Jetsons."
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I just found this on the Internet:
http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/ (http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/)
The release date of the article is odd though.
What do you think of the "new" design?
Those are pics of 2012 models....or maybe 2011. The current look started in 2013 and I'm certain the look won't change much for 2017...just some refinements at most.
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It seems to me that Zero is waiting to see how the political winds shift before making formal pricing announcements.
Zero has already told pricing to dealers on Oct 19. Just waiting for EICMA for announcement to the general public.
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I just found this on the Internet:
http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/ (http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/)
The release date of the article is odd though.
What do you think of the "new" design?
Those are pics of 2012 models....or maybe 2011. The current look started in 2013 and I'm certain the look won't change much for 2017...just some refinements at most.
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That's absolutely a 2012, I used to own one.
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I just found this on the Internet:
http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/ (http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/)
The release date of the article is odd though.
What do you think of the "new" design?
Wow, even for a non-English native speaker the grammar on that site hurts the eyes ;)
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I don't hear any electric noise, only the noise from the belt and a high-pitched whine form the motor, which most audible and is somewhat annoying between 15-20mph, but not there a very low speeds and not an issue at higher speeds. I don't think this noise is electric though, I think it is mechanical - from bearings and air resistance, I'm guessing... I'd like it gone too, just don't think an electric filter will deal with it.
I hope they put a better filter on the motor.
This will reduce the electric noise from the motor.
It will make the driving experience on specially low speed better.
At low speed you can hear this noise. Its like noise from an frequency converter.
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Saw a wish for LED headlight and turn signals. LED headlight is a no brainer. It is annoying to say the least to immediately do this update for $60.
More annoying is that LED turn signals are not DOT approved so a manufacturer cannot sell them. Euro bikes have to replace OEM LED turn signals with incandescent just to make them DOT legal. Ever notice how the USA OEM turn signals are all the same? Write your ombudsman... there is a form around here somewhere.
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Well , in my job I test electrical motors every day. Both frequency driven motors and direct driven motors from the nett.
I have had this job for 8 years now and I know you can hear a difference.
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It seems to me that Zero is waiting to see how the political winds shift before making formal pricing announcements.
Zero has already told pricing to dealers on Oct 19. Just waiting for EICMA for announcement to the general public.
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And do those dealers have NDAs? There's a very big difference between announcing MSRP to interested media show-goers for public announcement and the expected slate for dealers to do their planning with.
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And do those dealers have NDAs?
Yes
There's a very big difference between announcing MSRP to interested media show-goers for public announcement and the expected slate for dealers to do their planning with.
Not sure what you mean by this. Dealers are already ordering demo models.
Less than 2 weeks and all will be revealed....then we can start the 2018 thread....haha
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When I test rode a 2016 SR, back in March I think, my dealer told me if I wanted one they would order it from the factory and wouldn't sell the demo until later in the year. Basically dealers only had to keep two demo bikes which limited their inventory costs which is a good deal for them and customers get a factory fresh bike.
I think that model worked out well so dealers should really just pick a couple of demo bikes and get "butts on bikes" and let them sell their selves.
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And do those dealers have NDAs?
Yes
There's a very big difference between announcing MSRP to interested media show-goers for public announcement and the expected slate for dealers to do their planning with.
Not sure what you mean by this. Dealers are already ordering demo models.
Less than 2 weeks and all will be revealed....then we can start the 2018 thread....haha
Anything that has not been announced to the public is much more easily changed without loss of face.
You're being rather obtuse.
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And do those dealers have NDAs?
Yes
There's a very big difference between announcing MSRP to interested media show-goers for public announcement and the expected slate for dealers to do their planning with.
Not sure what you mean by this. Dealers are already ordering demo models.
Less than 2 weeks and all will be revealed....then we can start the 2018 thread....haha
Anything that has not been announced to the public is much more easily changed without loss of face.
You're being rather obtuse.
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. If that makes me obtuse...OK...then I'm obtuse.
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When I test rode a 2016 SR, back in March I think, my dealer told me if I wanted one they would order it from the factory and wouldn't sell the demo until later in the year. Basically dealers only had to keep two demo bikes which limited their inventory costs which is a good deal for them and customers get a factory fresh bike.
I think that model worked out well so dealers should really just pick a couple of demo bikes and get "butts on bikes" and let them sell their selves.
Correct. Dealers get to floor the demo models for free until late in the year just before the new models come out. How many depends on the size of the market. They let larger markets have an extra bike than the smaller markets. But the dealers get to pick which models they want as demos. Essentially an interest free loan. When I said they needed to order bikes I meant just picking which models.
They probably can sell the demos sooner but it doesn't make sense financially to do so unless the customer was willing to pay full price for the demo model just so they don't have to wait for an order. But it is possible that Zero doesn't even allow it in that scenario.
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Just got off the phone with a Zero dealer.
Long story short, my job will have me driving to really far locations sometimes, (ex. 85 miles ONE way).
So range is pretty crucial to me.I was trying to communicate this to him, but he kept insisting to buy the 2016 model. I also told him I'm considering a Ninja 300, and he pretty much tried to guilt me for it, with a "Really?" Ugh dealers can be so damn rude and annoying. >:(
Well anyways, he told me that the 2017 specs should be public on Nov 15, to confirm whoever mentioned a similar date to that in this forum.
Also he said that the 2017 range will pretty much be the same as the 2016, but I just think he's saying all this sh*t to get me to buy the 2016. *rolls eyes*.
I'm just hoping the 2017 improves by at least 10 more miles to the charge, and it would be worth it, for my case at least.
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Just got off the phone with a Zero dealer.
Long story short, my job will have me driving to really far locations sometimes, (ex. 85 miles ONE way).
So range is pretty crucial to me.I was trying to communicate this to him, but he kept insisting to buy the 2016 model. I also told him I'm considering a Ninja 300, and he pretty much tried to guilt me for it, with a "Really?" Ugh dealers can be so damn rude and annoying. >:(
Well anyways, he told me that the 2017 specs should be public on Nov 15, to confirm whoever mentioned a similar date to that in this forum.
Also he said that the 2017 range will pretty much be the same as the 2016, but I just think he's saying all this sh*t to get me to buy the 2016. *rolls eyes*.
I'm just hoping the 2017 improves by at least 10 more miles to the charge, and it would be worth it, for my case at least.
I won't try to interpret your interaction with the dealer, but the 2016 model will handle 85 miles one way at highway speeds, particularly with a generously sized windscreen, and older models will make compromises to do the same because the battery capacity difference is that real (13 vs 12.5 and then 11.4 pretty much is a very real capacity rating). If the 2017 has the same cells as the 2016, there's no reason for you to prefer it on range factors, and you may get a discount on a demo model.
I commute 85 miles round trip and charge at work on a regular power outlet (only 4 hours needed), but I do have access to J plugs. The 2016 model (13kWh pack) will require nearly 10 hours to recharge from empty, and I'm going to assume that that's not fast enough for you; it shouldn't be. You need to think about some kind of extra charger, even if it's one of Zero's light but low capacity Quick Chargers, or an Elcon 2500 from Hollywood Electrics, or a Charge Tank.
I will say that your commute will be less stressful and you'll start saving money on gas and maintenance, mainly the chain and oil changes. Think about how long you'll be making this commute and add up the maintenance costs and time associated, and that's where you start seeing that the $16k price pays off. 60-70k miles later, you won't have added up maintenance costs aside from brake pad and tired changes every ~10k miles.
One thing is for sure: capacity won't increase more than 10% per year, and a capacity increase does not improve your charge rate at all; 85 miles takes out the same amount of power from differently sized batteries, and the onboard charger (or third party charger) will recover that power at the same rate.
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particularly with a generously sized windscreen
Wait really? Do you believe the windscreen will make a significant difference? I was looking at this post: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2358.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2358.0) and some people seem to agree. That would be so awesome if it were true, and I'd for sure buy one for the extra range.
The thing that makes it tricky for me is that I have to drive to people's houses, and I think it would be a little awkward is I ask them if I can plug in lol. But who knows, I don't even have far clients yet, I have yet to know, so maybe I'm just overthinking.
I can totally do with 10 hours, I sleep for most of those, so it's not really a big deal :D
My main concern is that what if my battery is at 5% on the way back home, what can I do to save my butt? I remember looking at another forum about getting a free charge somewhere, such as a library, but I can't seem to find it. But I'd love to hear what you guys would do in the situation where your battery is almost dead, where would be a good backup place to charge? (Or maybe even to freeload and get free electricity at a public place lol)
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particularly with a generously sized windscreen
Wait really? Do you believe the windscreen will make a significant difference? I was looking at this post: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2358.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2358.0) and some people seem to agree. That would be so awesome if it were true, and I'd for sure buy one for the extra range.
Yes, you'll get 5-10% back on the highway from a good windscreen. I get 15% using a custom large windscreen mount, story in this thread:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5525
General aftermarket listing:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Zero_Aftermarket#Windscreens
The flip side of aerodynamics is that a headwind will reduce your range by the same amount or worse unless you slow down. You may have to ride at 55mph instead of 70mph.
The thing that makes it tricky for me is that I have to drive to people's houses, and I think it would be a little awkward is I ask them if I can plug in lol. But who knows, I don't even have far clients yet, I have yet to know, so maybe I'm just overthinking.
This is what PlugShare is for. Use that app for that. Don't cold call unless it's an emergency, and definitely be diplomatic about it, because it can be weird to be approached for power.
I can totally do with 10 hours, I sleep for most of those, so it's not really a big deal :D
Overnight is exactly what the onboard charger is made to handle.
My main concern is that what if my battery is at 5% on the way back home, what can I do to save my butt? I remember looking at another forum about getting a free charge somewhere, such as a library, but I can't seem to find it. But I'd love to hear what you guys would do in the situation where your battery is almost dead, where would be a good backup place to charge? (Or maybe even to freeload and get free electricity at a public place lol)
Yes, getting stranded this way sucks. Again, PlugShare is the best solution right now for this, but you'll be better off getting a level 2 charger (the ones I listed above) to avoid being stranded. Of course, it depends on what region you're in and what's commonly available. A 50amp RV plug may be more common than J1772, but both are level 2.
The outlay for a decent level 2 charging setup will run about $1000-2000 or so, though, depending on the option. A little resourcefulness drives the cost below that, but you wind up taking more responsibility for the hardware.
One note is that the 2016 bikes will typically run all the way down to 0% pretty reliably compared to older models, but you don't want to do this regularly since it stresses out the battery cells.
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http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/promotions/event.php?t=2170 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/promotions/event.php?t=2170)
Looks like someone screwed up. Demos listed are a new SR13.0, DS6.5 with charge tank, and FXS6.5.
So no battery increase for 2017, but a new battery arrangement for at least the DS line. This would be a brick down, would it not? Makes me think they are trying to add flexibility to get model prices down by giving smaller pack options. I believe some one mentioned that possibility before...
EDIT: KrazyEd was the one who mentioned this earlier in the thread.
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http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/promotions/event.php?t=2170 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/promotions/event.php?t=2170)
Looks like someone screwed up. Demos listed are a new SR13.0, DS6.5 with charge tank, and FXS6.5.
So no battery increase for 2017, but a new battery arrangement for at least the DS line. This would be a brick down, would it not? Makes me think they are trying to add flexibility to get model prices down by giving smaller pack options. I believe some one mentioned that possibility before...
EDIT: KrazyEd was the one who mentioned this earlier in the thread.
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Yep, the cats out of the bag. On the Zero 10 year anniversary event factory tour I saw DS 6.5. It was hanging from a tag that had a 17 on it. No Doubt the zero s will have a 6.5 model too. But I'm not worried this is going to be a stale year. I just don't think that zero would go to eicma if they didn't have something exciting to announce.
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Whats the point of a 6.5 DS? Lighter weight for off road? Charge tank with off road?
Tree chargers?
I guess they are going aero fairings with the SR?
I was going to say just a typo but if yall saw it so be it.
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Whats the point of a 6.5 DS? Lighter weight for off road? Charge tank with off road?
Tree chargers?
I guess they are going aero fairings with the SR?
I was going to say just a typo but if yall saw it so be it.
I think @cheesymac is right...puts a bigger difference between models than you get with 9.8/13. S/DS are the commuter bikes. Price will probably be closer to FX/FXS and you get storage that you don't get with FX/FXS.
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Despite comments that the new 32A cells are likely too new to go into the 2017 models, I seem to recall with the last cell upgrade Farasis did not publicly announce the new cell until after Zero had made their announcement.
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Whats the point of a 6.5 DS? Lighter weight for off road? Charge tank with off road?
Tree chargers?
I guess they are going aero fairings with the SR?
I was going to say just a typo but if yall saw it so be it.
People who want a DS but don't need the range. If you want one to commute with but don't live too far away from work it makes sense.
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Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong but sounds like a solution searching for a problem.
If someone "needs" the DS size but can't afford a 13ZF buy a used one.
The charge tank goes sort of quick but only to 80%
The FX shows 50 mile range at 55MPH
DS would be less being heavier and wider so lets say 44 miles.
So power tank charging would get you about 35 miles in around 2 hours.
I just don't see it.
I watch the used market on these bikes and the ones that sit the longest are the smaller pack bikes.
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6.5 battery I think is too small for most who commute on highways for more than 15 miles one way. I went to a place today that's only 25 or so miles away, but mostly highway, 75-80mph pretty much constant speed. With almost 2x the size of the 6.5 battery, at 80mph I estimate I have probably 60 miles of range on the '15 SR with large windscreen. And I'll be at less than 20% left and with restricted power at the end. With a 6.5 battery I can't make this trip. I could use side roads, but instead of 30 minutes it is 1hr+ each way, not practical...
Yup, cheaper is good, but I think folks buy DS for commuting. So, unlike the FX/FXS that could live with a small battery for off road or track use, for street use it is just too restricting. A commuter bike that costs over 10K out the door with a range of less than 30 highway miles at high speed is not a good proposition, IMO. If one has a city or slower and shorter commute, maybe OK, but then the FX/S is way more fun...
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Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong but sounds like a solution searching for a problem.
If someone "needs" the DS size but can't afford a 13ZF buy a used one.
The charge tank goes sort of quick but only to 80%
The FX shows 50 mile range at 55MPH
DS would be less being heavier and wider so lets say 44 miles.
So power tank charging would get you about 35 miles in around 2 hours.
I just don't see it.
I watch the used market on these bikes and the ones that sit the longest are the smaller pack bikes.
IMO, FX is great for local commuting. With about 13 miles one way and a "large" windshield, I get home in the evening from commuting mostly highway both ways with about 30% left.
I think something like the old XU might be a good addition to the lineup. Smaller, cheaper, more noob friendly. Maybe jam more capacity (4-5kWh?) into a single power pack and make the bike even smaller and lighter. Catch some customers who might otherwise go with a scooter or Grom type bike.
So, battery density up about 30%, one pack. Smaller, lighter (maybe near 200#?), range about 50 miles, cheaper (5k-7k USD?). Perfect city bike, I might invest in a dealership.
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6.5 battery I think is too small for most who commute on highways for more than 15 miles one way. I went to a place today that's only 25 or so miles away, but mostly highway, 75-80mph pretty much constant speed.
The thing is, I think, long commutes like that are not the norm. Throughout the world, people are moving back to the cities. Just look at the real estate market here in Denver. There will always be people travelling 25+ miles one way, but I can't see a vehicle manufacturer trying to make their entire fleet suitable for that kind of commute. They should go for a piece of the city commuter market if they want to compete. If I lived in the country, I would have vehicles suitable to the distances needed, but if I lived in the inner city I'd just rent something when I want to make a long trip. I think that if Zero only caters to long distance high speed riders, they'll be stuck in a niche market.
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One day they'll build towers like Tesla built at Wardenclyffe all over and power will be transmitted wirelessly to the bike as you ride. No battery and unlimited range!!!
http://www.teslasciencecenter.org/wardenclyffe/ (http://www.teslasciencecenter.org/wardenclyffe/)
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I can see these 6.5 DS and maybe S having very limited sales. With less cells (more current draw per cell) the pack won't last as long either.
The FXS and DSR was a great move, if this is the new "great move" for this year I predict it will be a flop.
But lets not forget that we also got the IPM motor as well as the FXS and DSR last year. Lets hope there is more in the announcement than the lesser battery sizes.
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http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/promotions/event.php?t=2170 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/promotions/event.php?t=2170)
Looks like someone screwed up. Demos listed are a new SR13.0, DS6.5 with charge tank, and FXS6.5.
So no battery increase for 2017, but a new battery arrangement for at least the DS line. This would be a brick down, would it not? Makes me think they are trying to add flexibility to get model prices down by giving smaller pack options. I believe some one mentioned that possibility before...
In the past demo bikes have been previous years bikes, It might be the case here (just hoping it is, don't know) and badly worded form.
It says new (2016 or 2017)? The 2016 is the current new SR with maybe a 2017 6.5 DS thrown in?????
More wishful thinking than anything.
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There is an out for the 6.5 that makes it less of a compromise, if I read between the lines correctly at the factory tour.
Also, the used Zero market is microscopic and sucks for the seller, so there's no reason for Zero to lean on existing customers to prop up the new sales goals.
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Also, the used Zero market is microscopic and sucks for the seller, so there's no reason for Zero to lean on existing customers to prop up the new sales goals.
Probably about the same for a used PC... the technology changes VERY fast and it doesn't take long for the bike to become obsolete. I knew that going in. ;)
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Well I wouldn't quite say 13+ bikes are "obsolete" just not as attractive as 15/16's. The issue for me is Zero making a 9.8 DS cuts into the market that would be looking at my 11.4 13MY DS.
Making maybe $9,000 the TOP amount you could hope to get for one. If everyone could only buy a new $13,000 13ZF DS mine might bring $10,500 or $11,000 which would make it much more likely that I would cough up the extra $3000 for the latest and greatest because I know how good they are.
If Zero dealers would give you $8000 on trade in and then could turn around and sell them at $10500 that would be a great no hassle deal for early adopters and they could "certify" the older bikes and give maybe a 6 month or year warranty. At some point this will need to happen just like in the car market.
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The Zero team is too smart not to know exactly what they were doing when they led some of the most enthusiastic Zero owners through the factory floor in the midst of building 2017 bikes. Before the tour started they gave very explicit instructions about not using a camera on the tour under penalty of being asked to immediately leave. But that doesn't mean we don't all have eyes. And to top it off, they even told everyone that 2017 bikes "may or may not be visible during the tour". So they prepare us for the possibility that we might see a 2017 bike and then they walk us right past 2017 bikes...close enough to reach out and touch if they hadn't also told us not to touch anything ;D . Of course, they had complete control over what we would (and wouldn't) see when we saw the 2017 models.
So, with all that said, I can't completely rule out the possibility that it was all staged to mislead us into thinking there wouldn't be a battery improvement for 2017 thus making a battery capacity increase reveal more unexpected....but it seems highly unlikely.
So here is what I actually saw....
There were maybe 6-8 bikes on the assembly line in various stages of completion. Every bike had an 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of blue paper hanging from the handle bars inside a see through slip case. The blue tag hanging from every single one of the bikes had a LARGE number 17 on it....hmmm....wonder what that could mean.
Looking closer at these sheets and you could clearly see the model, battery configuration and color. So I saw some blue tags with "DS13 Orange". Also saw some blue tags with "DS6.5 Orange". Looking at the monolith of the bikes with a blue tag with DS6.5 Orange I saw a ZF6.5 plate. I also saw a blue tag with "DSR13 Graphite". So it would appear black is gone (RIP) and graphite is in. The bikes didn't have tanks on them yet but there was a rack off to the side with many tanks on it and I spotted the graphite....I look forward to seeing what it looks like on the bike in proper lighting.
Looking at Zero's own website for some perspective....
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/10-years/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/10-years/)
I won't go all the way back to 2006 and I won't cover every detail of every change from year to year...just enough to establish a pattern...
2012 - The year Z Force is born. This is when zero started using pouch cells (ZF9) instead of cylindrical cells.
2013 - Zero bumps to present day voltages (102V nominal, 116V max). They are still using the same pouch cells as in 2012 (25Ah) but the raise in voltage means the ZF9 turns into a ZF11.4. This is also the year they introduced the Zero designed motors.
2014 - Zero still uses 25Ah cells (yep....3 years in a row) and since the voltage also stays the same it means a return of the ZF11.4. BUT....this is of course the year of a new high amp controller (hello SEVCON size 6) and they use high temp magnets in the motor to debut the Zero SR.
2015 - Zero bumps to the 27Ah cells to make a ZF12.5 but the motor and controller remain unchanged. This is the year of brakes, tires, wheels and suspension. I think this is Terry's favorite year ;) OK....probably every year ends up being his new favorite (and 2017 is not likely to be an exception) but 2015+ is the cut off that he unashamedly encourages everyone to move towards.
2016 - Zero bumps to the 29Ah cells to make a ZF13 and they debut the IPM motor. They also bring the size 6 controller to the DS to make a DSR and put street tires on the FX to make the FXS supermoto. And of course this is also the year of the charge tank.
Which brings us to 2017 - Indications are that the ZF13 is back and a new ZF6.5 available for the S/DS. For a while I considered the possibility that Zero was going to start using nominal capacity instead of max capacity for naming their battery packs...since the nominal voltage of a 36S pack would be about 116V (150V max) it would coincidentally mean that nominal capacity would be 13kWh....but that was just a combination of projecting my own desires and a refusal to accept the fact that the battery capacity wasn't increasing for 2017 (I'm over it). The IPM was just introduced last year so with the exception of blessing the FX with an IPM, the motor probably won't change....maybe refinements but not a totally new design.
But I give it about a 0% chance that's the full story for 2017. If it was, why not just announce at AIMExpo....or just tell everyone the specs at the Zero 10 year anniversary event? The cost of floor space at EICMA has to be more than at AIMExpo. It costs more to get everyone and the bikes to Italy. Press coverage is more intense. So, does anyone think they would put a bright expensive spot light on themselves if that was all they had to announce? I think not.
So what is the pattern that we can pick out from all of this? I think it's that Zero consistently improves the bikes year after year....unlike an ICE motorcycle OEM that can make essentially the exact same bike for several years. To be fair, if you are building upon technology that has been in the mainstream getting better for over 100 years...why fix what isn't broke. And the big OEMs will also take an approach of moving model to model rather than making changes across the lineup. But Zero is advancing a technology that has been available for over 100 years but hasn't benefited from the constant iteration and improvement that comes with mass market adoption. Instead, each year they have to pick the focus areas for each model and let the other areas remain unchanged or minimally changed. Then the following year the focus area moves to one of the areas that wasn't changed or was minimally changed the previous year. And repeat.
So what can all of this tell us about what the focus areas were for 2017? I have some ideas but let you draw your own conclusions for now.
So why did Zero let everyone who went on a factory tour see that the battery capacity wasn't changing for 2017? I think it's very possible that it was basically a deliberate leak in order to give the die hards some time to get over the fact that range isn't increasing this year and move on to the exciting stuff that IS improving for 2017. Was that the motivation? I don't know. But they certainly wouldn't be the first company to intentionally leak information about a soon to be released product for one reason or another.
As far as the practicality of a ZF6.5 S/DS....no doubt it's not a bike for everyone. The range has to work for you or its an obvious non starter. But it doesn't cost Zero that much to offer the configuration and brings down the entry price of the more commuter focused S/DS models. I imagine the primary market is people that would potentially go for an FXS as a commuter because of the lower price point but want some storage and faster charging. Even without a charge tank, an S/DS6.5 would have 1.3kW of onboard charging compared to the 650W you get on an FXS....so could be charged in half the time. And there's no reason to believe the charge tank wouldn't be compatible with the S/DS6.5 which could get you charged up in about 1.5 hours....assuming the same 3.8kW max charge rate as is available on the 2016 bikes.
It reminds me of the way almost every single smart phone OEM continued to offer phones with only 16Gb memory long after most people considered 32Gb to be the minimum amount of storage needed for a smart phone. But it allows them to say "starting at just..." even though they will immediately up sell the majority of customers to the higher memory options...paying extra for double the range is a lot easier sell than paying extra for a 33% increase as is the case going from ZF9.8 to ZF13. However, you still have the lower price model for those who just can't afford or don't want to spend the money on the higher capacity battery.
I think the side affect is that people who buy an FXS gets narrowed down to just the people that are looking for that style of bike and the buyers who just went to the FXS for the lower price point migrate to the S/DS6.5.
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I am not usually good at predicting future events, so take this with a grain of salt.
The two biggest criticisms of electric vehicles are cost and range, and those are pretty related as trade offs. There are folks who want to be able to do longer runs (me included), and folks who want a low cost efficient commuter (also me). The commuter folks don't need as much battery, but maybe the FX/S doesn't quite fit them. The lower capacity S/DS fits nicely, and will make it more affordable. Resell will suck no matter what.
What scares me (and others) about sinking the money into one of these bikes is finding it doesn't quite fit, battery wise. Or that my circumstances change, and it may no longer fit. Then I have to buy a new unit at significant outlay of cash, while also trying to sell my old unit at significant loss.
This doesn't set up as a customer friendly option.
What would be a better scenario is if I could buy additional capacity as I need it, and have faster charging for what capacity I have. A 6.5 S/DS would be pushing my range, but at work I have level 2 chargers all over, so said bike would easily charge during the days for the ride home (26 miles). Then when I am ready to take a foliage trip to North Carolina, buy in some additional capacity when I could afford it.
You know, kind if like the modular bricks in the FX/S.
What if this year's innovation was a pack layout change, such that the monolith was no more; that the capacity could go modular like the FX/S, but now in the S/DS lines? Perhaps even to the point that any 2017+ Zero can swap batteries out.
Want extended range on the lower price S/DS? Buy an add on pack. Perhaps with future cell development (though this is more out there of an idea), the pack format stays compatible, so later, denser packs can be an upgrade on your older units. Or a pack that is failing early can be replaced at dealerships. Future proofing the lines a little.
And, like the FX/S series, you can buy off board chargers for extra batteries if you want that option.
And, for Zero's benefit, a standardized physical brick size across their lines. Zero and their dealerships won't have to worry about multiple inventory items until denser packs come along.
It is probably a pipe dream, but one fed from the smaller spec DS to be shown at the event.
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An add-on fairing option will be very popular, I think. And it could be produced relatively cheaply, although ideally it should come with taller and farther ahead headlight to make it possible to get behind the screen instead on top of it when ducking... That would address highway range nicely.
LED headlight? Maybe, although if it costs Zero too much to get DOT certification we might continue with the halogens, which are fi e as far as I am concerned, except for the terrible heat they generate, which I'm afraid could lead to damage of the plastic headlight over time, especially if left on with the bike stationary without air cooling it.
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An add-on fairing option will be very popular, I think. And it could be produced relatively cheaply, although ideally it should come with taller and farther ahead headlight to make it possible to get behind the screen instead on top of it when ducking... That would address highway range nicely.
I'm not sure how cheap it would be for Zero to develop but definitely agree that they should do it. Better aerodynamics is low hanging fruit that Zero has so far not decided to pick. It seems a little bit like shooting yourself in the foot. The number one request is more range, without a doubt. Even if the fairing only increases range by 30% on the highway at 70 mph that would still get you over 100 miles for a ZF13 which would convince a LOT more people to take the plunge.
I just hope that when they do take the aero plunge they don't just offer new bikes with fairings but also offer the ability for existing owners to buy a fairing to bolt on their bikes.
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From what I heard the 2016 S 9.8 was the bike to buy with 50% more range than the NEW Zero S 6.5 for the same price.
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From what I heard the 2016 S 9.8 was the bike to buy with 50% more range than the NEW Zero S 6.5 for the same price.
A. You are assuming range is the only factor. There could be other reasons to choose a 2017 Zero S ZF6.5 over a 2016 Zero S ZF9.8.
B. You are assuming the 2017 Zero S ZF6.5 will be priced the same as a 2016 Zero S ZF9.8.
C. Good luck finding a new or demo model 2016 Zero S ZF9.8 at this point. I doubt many if any dealers had ZF9.8 demo models and even though the 2017 bikes haven't been announced yet I don't think you can order a 2016 any more. So you would have to find a used bike and I doubt many owners are even close to being ready to sell yet.
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I think the 6.5 is upgradable to the 13, and that that's the missing factor that makes this work.
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I think the 6.5 is upgradable to the 13, and that that's the missing factor that makes this work.
On one of the Zero web casts they stated that the "new" frame format (from 2012 or 2013 onwards) would stay the same so that a battery upgrade was possible. Old bikes could put in a new battery. So this would mean the 6.5 is upgradeable too. But it may mean taking out the old 6.5 monolith and putting in a new 9.8 or 13 monolith, not just adding 6.5 to what you have.
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mrwilsn because you saw a ZF13 battery for 2017 does not necessarily mean they won't introduce a bigger (more expensive) new battery. That would give buyers the option to stay with the ZF13 and its price or shell out more money for a bigger capacity battery and more range.
Last year the old motor was around also in the FX and smaller battery bikes along with the new IPM motor.
The option is there for a bigger capacity battery with the 32ah cells.
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mrwilsn because you saw a ZF13 battery for 2017 does not necessarily mean they won't introduce a bigger (more expensive) new battery. That would give buyers the option to stay with the ZF13 and its price or shell out more money for a bigger capacity battery and more range.
Last year the old motor was around also in the FX and smaller battery bikes along with the new IPM motor.
The option is there for a bigger capacity battery with the 32ah cells.
That's true. Although it would be a departure from the options Zero has offered in the past.
Zero has always only offered one battery option for the SR and DSR. For the FX/FXS the options have always been one brick or two and for the S/DS the options have been 3 bricks or 4. I'm not counting adding a power tank here. They have never offered the same model with two different monolith options using the same number of bricks. The 6.5 or 13 options follow in line with the same methodology of just using the same cells and providing options based on the number of bricks in parallel.
The cost of the battery is a large percentage of the cost of the bike but the difference in cost of the 32 Ah cells vs. the 29 Ah cells is negligible. If they offered an SR ZF13 (4 bricks using 29 Ah cells) and an SR ZF14.8 (4 bricks using 32 Ah cells) I doubt they could separate them enough in price that anyone would go for the ZF13.
It seems unlikely to me but your idea can't be counted out until 8 November.
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Well I wouldn't quite say 13+ bikes are "obsolete" just not as attractive as 15/16's. The issue for me is Zero making a 9.8 DS cuts into the market that would be looking at my 11.4 13MY DS.
Making maybe $9,000 the TOP amount you could hope to get for one. If everyone could only buy a new $13,000 13ZF DS mine might bring $10,500 or $11,000 which would make it much more likely that I would cough up the extra $3000 for the latest and greatest because I know how good they are.
If Zero dealers would give you $8000 on trade in and then could turn around and sell them at $10500 that would be a great no hassle deal for early adopters and they could "certify" the older bikes and give maybe a 6 month or year warranty. At some point this will need to happen just like in the car market.
NEW2elec, have you scheduled with your dealer to bring your bike in for a battery replacement? The 2013 cells had a potting material that was found over time could react with the pouch cell itself, and this was fixed in 2014. But since there weren't any 2014 11.4's left at this time, 2013 owners got a little boost for being an early adopter and will be getting a ZF12.5 monolith. As soon as that happens, this should increase the range of your bike a little and hopefully give you the price difference you need so you can upgrade to a new Zero. You've put in your time, let someone else get your 2013, fall in love with electric, and then after a year or two upgrade as well and the cycle continues.
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Thanks Terry but as far as I know mine was the first bike to have this issue.
They seemed to have at least one 14 monolith left since that was what they replaced it with.
My dealer thought I needed a new BMS but it was more than that so off it went.
I talked to a guy at Zero who I won't name and asked if they would put a 12.5 in and he told me they wouldn't work in a 13.
I may have the only 11.4 DS 13MY left in the world (so its priceless)
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I think the 6.5 is upgradable to the 13, and that that's the missing factor that makes this work.
On one of the Zero web casts they stated that the "new" frame format (from 2012 or 2013 onwards) would stay the same so that a battery upgrade was possible. Old bikes could put in a new battery. So this would mean the 6.5 is upgradeable too. But it may mean taking out the old 6.5 monolith and putting in a new 9.8 or 13 monolith, not just adding 6.5 to what you have.
I think it literally means two 6.5s, and that the 13 models will have two 6.5s, and that there will be no more monoliths.
There's too much cost in taking out an old monolith (who would buy the cells?), and the fact that Zero never upgrades a customer from a 3p bike to 4p says as much. I think what this means is abandoning the monolith design in favor of a more pluggable design.
What I'm really hopeful for is that the up-to-now monolith based bikes will now be able to have cooperating BMS boards, which has so far been unreliable with the Power Tank installs. This speaks more to Terry's touring goals.
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I think the 6.5 is upgradable to the 13, and that that's the missing factor that makes this work.
On one of the Zero web casts they stated that the "new" frame format (from 2012 or 2013 onwards) would stay the same so that a battery upgrade was possible. Old bikes could put in a new battery. So this would mean the 6.5 is upgradeable too. But it may mean taking out the old 6.5 monolith and putting in a new 9.8 or 13 monolith, not just adding 6.5 to what you have.
I think it literally means two 6.5s, and that the 13 models will have two 6.5s, and that there will be no more monoliths.
There's too much cost in taking out an old monolith (who would buy the cells?), and the fact that Zero never upgrades a customer from a 3p bike to 4p says as much. I think what this means is abandoning the monolith design in favor of a more pluggable design.
What I'm really hopeful for is that the up-to-now monolith based bikes will now be able to have cooperating BMS boards, which has so far been unreliable with the Power Tank installs. This speaks more to Terry's touring goals.
We are guessing, and its a chance, but what if the 6.5 is a flop (don't sell any). With a monolith, if cells get thinner you could squeeze 5 bricks in it with no change to external cables coming out. If you introduce 2 6.5's and then try to put 2 1/2 cells in each you would need an extra cable to join the 2 1/2 cells together.
The monolith gives a lot more flexibility going forward to accomodate different configurations within.
You could even make a 6.5 monolith using cheaper (larger) cells that fill the monolith and really reduce the price of the bike.
I think it would be a really backwards move to go with 2 X 6.5 "mini-liths" rather than 1 monolith.
Also every external connector is a potential failure point.
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We are guessing, and its a chance, but what if the 6.5 is a flop (don't sell any). With a monolith, if cells get thinner you could squeeze 5 bricks in it with no change to external cables coming out. If you introduce 2 6.5's and then try to put 2 1/2 cells in each you would need an extra cable to join the 2 1/2 cells together.
The monolith gives a lot more flexibility going forward to accomodate different configurations within.
You could even make a 6.5 monolith using cheaper (larger) cells that fill the monolith and really reduce the price of the bike.
I think it would be a really backwards move to go with 2 X 6.5 "mini-liths" rather than 1 monolith.
Also every external connector is a potential failure point.
I think you may have a slight misunderstanding of the design of the Zero battery. A monolith is not just a 28S4P pack of cells.
Zero currently has a "brick" architecture. Each brick contains 28 cells wired in series (28S1P) and each brick has it's own housing, BMS, contactors and connectors. The bricks that are inside a monolith are identical to the bricks that are used on the FX/S. So a 2016 Zero SR ZF13 has a monolith that has 4 bricks inside. Making a single ZF6.5 brick (28S2P) would mean cutting the extra bulk of BMS, contactors, connectors etc. in half.
It's more likely that the cells will stay the same size but increase in capacity (as they have in the past....25Ah, 27Ah, 29Ah and 32Ah) than having the cells themselves shrink in size.
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I think you may have a slight misunderstanding of the design of the Zero battery. A monolith is not just a 28S4P pack of cells.
Zero currently has a "brick" architecture. Each brick contains 28 cells wired in series (28S1P) and each brick has it's own housing, BMS, contactors and connectors. The bricks that are inside a monolith are identical to the bricks that are used on the FX/S. So a 2016 Zero SR ZF13 has a monolith that has 4 bricks inside. Making a single ZF6.5 brick (28S2P) would mean cutting the extra bulk of BMS, contactors, connectors etc. in half.
It's more likely that the cells will stay the same size but increase in capacity (as they have in the past....25Ah, 27Ah, 29Ah and 32Ah) than having the cells themselves shrink in size.
I am aware that they use a brick architecture.
So are you saying that there are 4 contactors in a monolith and 5 housings (1 per brick and the monolith housing)?
I would have thought that the bricks were naked and hard wired together inside a monolith, that would reduce weight and increase reliability.
If a new cell comes out that is thinner and you could fit 5 bricks inside a monolith (by splitting 1 brick in 1/2) then why wouldn't you (change the design). Its a monolith, no need to know whats inside as long as it has the same connectors coming out. It may raise the cost a bit (for 2 1/2 bricks) but for extra range could be worth it.
I guess we will all be eager to see what Zero has done. Last year some were disappointed, I personally thought the FXS and DSR were a great move and was blown away by the IPM motor, that was a big ticket item.
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Easy rejoinder to grmarks' valid but not realistic concept: whatever incurs the lowest R&D costs will certainly win in the short term, and Zero needs to maximize ROI. So, changing the physical dimensions is usually going to lose on a motorcycle design.
Look, lest anyone think I'm speculating too broadly, I saw the frame with my own eyes, and I believe it's set up for what I mentioned, though no one would comment. It's an interesting approach and will probably push Zero higher on the adoption curve without them having spent too much time on it.
There were other things they wouldn't comment on that I hope we'll see in concert with that.
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I am aware that they use a brick architecture.
So are you saying that there are 4 contactors in a monolith and 5 housings (1 per brick and the monolith housing)?
I would have thought that the bricks were naked and hard wired together inside a monolith, that would reduce weight and increase reliability.
If a new cell comes out that is thinner and you could fit 5 bricks inside a monolith (by splitting 1 brick in 1/2) then why wouldn't you (change the design). Its a monolith, no need to know whats inside as long as it has the same connectors coming out. It may raise the cost a bit (for 2 1/2 bricks) but for extra range could be worth it.
I guess we will all be eager to see what Zero has done. Last year some were disappointed, I personally thought the FXS and DSR were a great move and was blown away by the IPM motor, that was a big ticket item.
You got it....its kind of amazing really. Zero has the most energy dense battery pack available on the EV market and they still have room to optimize the design.
The cells are only 6mm thick as it is (or at least I assume they are....I have only been able to find a spec for the old 25 Ah cells). There isn't much room to make them thinner....not to mention that making the cells thinner would just increase the overall packaging of the battery pack.
Keep in mind that a battery is very different from microelectronics. The goal isn't to keep making the battery smaller and smaller. The goal is to take a battery of the exact same size and fit more energy inside. Think about it....how long have AA batteries been around....AAA....9 volt.....C....D....18650....etc The form factor gets standardized and then they just try to squeeze more energy into the package. They have to do this because of economies of scale and because once an OEM has decided on a form factor they don't want to change the product design because the size of the battery changed. From the point of view of a company like Farasis imagine trying to convince Zero to buy some new smaller cells which would require redesign work by Zero vs. trying to sell them some new cells that are drop in replacements for the cells they already use but they have more energy in them (e.g. moving to 32 Ah instead of 29 Ah).
No matter what, I think some people will be disappointed. Even if they upgraded to the 32 Ah cells some people would be disappointed that its not more.
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My local dealer had a 2015 DS that was prepped and ready for sale today, so they're still getting shot of stock from two years ago. I'll bet there are still a few 2014's in a warehouse somewhere too.
I'd like to see more folks enjoying the experience of owning a Zero, so if the 2017 model year brings nothing more than price cuts, I think that is a big win. From what I can tell, reliability is there now and it has been good for me with a 2014 model, all things considered.
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$9K for a '13 DS, even with the '14 or '15/'16 battery I think is highly optimistic. Heck, if someone wants to buy my perfectly functional low-mileage '15 SR for $10.5K - message me and it's yours when you show-up with the cash!
The situation with resale I think, unfortunately, is somewhat similar with the resale value of electric cars: what was a $30K car (Leaf for instance) sells at auctions for $6K (and not much more at retail) only a couple of years later in perfect condition. Hoping to recoup more than half of the original retail on a used Zero three years later I think is unrealistic.
But yes, having a cheaper and less capable "new" MY'17 will help to sell older but more capable models better. This is how I bought my 12kW '15 SR used (but almost new) at a price that was about the same $$$ as a brand new '16 S with the 9kW battery. Cheap it was not, but I got more for the same money vs. buying new. And I would not have bought a new SR at the still too high prices they are asking for them.
Well I wouldn't quite say 13+ bikes are "obsolete" just not as attractive as 15/16's. The issue for me is Zero making a 9.8 DS cuts into the market that would be looking at my 11.4 13MY DS.
Making maybe $9,000 the TOP amount you could hope to get for one. If everyone could only buy a new $13,000 13ZF DS mine might bring $10,500 or $11,000 which would make it much more likely that I would cough up the extra $3000 for the latest and greatest because I know how good they are.
If Zero dealers would give you $8000 on trade in and then could turn around and sell them at $10500 that would be a great no hassle deal for early adopters and they could "certify" the older bikes and give maybe a 6 month or year warranty. At some point this will need to happen just like in the car market.
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Leaked photo of 2017 ZeroSR Cruiser... ::)
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Yeah!
I think that would be a low-tech way of increasing milage and comfort. Upgrade the suspension as well (decent breaks) and I might just consider buying it...
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and I might just consider buying it...
And cruise control!!!
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and I might just consider buying it...
And cruise control!!!
And a stereo and on board compressor and luggage and a CB and... Nah, I'll stick with my FX.
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and I might just consider buying it...
And cruise control!!!
And a stereo and on board compressor and luggage and a CB and... Nah, I'll stick with my FX.
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I was laughing and thinking "I know what you mean"... until I thought about it.
stereo? I have a MP3 player.
Air compressor? on my old sport bikes, I kept it under the seat with the tire kit.
luggage? net for backpack on back, tankbag... and sometimes soft saddlebags...
CB? I have a radio that clips on the helmet.
so yeah, all that on a pure sportsbike when going long distances or commuting... no issues.
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And cruise control!!!
And a stereo and on board compressor and luggage and a CB and... Nah, I'll stick with my FX.
I agree that simpler is generally better, especially regarding the kind of things you mentioned, but cruise control would cost (in dollars and weight) exactly one button and some firmware. Well worth it in my book. Same with reverse. Don't need 'em or don't like 'em, don't use 'em.
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All the calls for a cruise control, I assume you guys havent seen this: http://www.atlasthrottlelock.com/ (http://www.atlasthrottlelock.com/)
Also, look up BrianTrice's full review....
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And traction control.
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All the calls for a cruise control, I assume you guys havent seen this: http://www.atlasthrottlelock.com/ (http://www.atlasthrottlelock.com/)
Also, look up BrianTrice's full review....
I think most people have probably seen it....I have. It's a nice work around and a good review by @BrianTRice but it's not a cruise control, it's a throttle lock. And it's exactly that...a workaround.
The Zero deserves a proper cruise control. Reverse would be nice from time to time but it's not as high on my list as for people that frequently find themselves trying to back up on an incline. I can only imagine that if they did put reverse it would come with an annoying loud beeping sound when enabled which would discourage me from using it as much as possible...or until I disabled the sound :)
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Leaked photo of 2017 ZeroSR Cruiser... ::)
I definitely laughed at this one...nice first post :)
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A cruise control would be nice, but seriously... why would anyone need a cruise control on a bike you can't ride for more than an hour at a time anyway?? I just put it in ECO mode and hold the throttle open to cruise at a steady 70 mph. A throttle lock would be all you would need in that scenario.
Now on my K1200LT that can go 250 miles on a tank of gas, a cruise control makes sense as that is almost four hours of steady highway cruising. Reverse also makes sense on an 850 lbs (with full tank of fuel) motorcycle, but I can't see it necessary on a bike that barely makes it over 400 lbs. A gym membership might be more effective. If your legs are short, get off the bike to move it; it isn't that heavy.
What I'd really like to see for 2017 (and I consider it low-hanging fruit from an engineering standpoint) is a full coverage fairing, something that can be bolted on to prior-year models and ordered as an option when the bike is ordered. That would give you the biggest "bang for the buck" as far as range is concerned. Increased range WITHOUT an increase in charging time. Best of both worlds.
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Another thing: Whatever happened to those "Color Kits" I read about at the beginning of the year? It was supposed to be the ability to order additional body panels in whatever color you wanted to change up the look of your bike. I never saw anything more about that.
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A cruise control would be nice, but seriously... why would anyone need a cruise control on a bike you can't ride for more than an hour at a time anyway?? I just put it in ECO mode and hold the throttle open to cruise at a steady 70 mph. A throttle lock would be all you would need in that scenario.
Now on my K1200LT that can go 250 miles on a tank of gas, a cruise control makes sense as that is almost four hours of steady highway cruising. Reverse also makes sense on an 850 lbs (with full tank of fuel) motorcycle, but I can't see it necessary on a bike that barely makes it over 400 lbs. A gym membership might be more effective. If your legs are short, get off the bike to move it; it isn't that heavy.
When you start to fast charge it changes everything. I have done 500 mile days on the Zero and even though you only do it ~100 miles (or less) at a time it can still be a strain on the wrist. Especially since chances are you are riding slow and it takes you longer to cover the 100 miles. But that's not even the main reason I want cruise control....I use cruise control on motorcycles and cars as a means to keep myself from getting speeding tickets :o It seems like EVERY time the topic comes up someone has to bring up the fact that you can set a max speed in custom mode....which is great but it's SO far from what I'm looking for and not adequate at ALL.
In any case....to each his own....like @Doug S said....it's not an expensive feature to offer and if you don't want to use it....don't.
I also don't think it's fair to tell people to get a qym membership because they are asking for reverse. For me it's fine....I don't need a gym membership....my legs are long enough and strong enough to be able to back up in most situations. But there are plenty of riders who can't....and I don't see why a physical fitness test should be part of ridding a motorcycle. Granted....being physically fit can make you a better rider but in my book it shouldn't be a requirement to be able to get on one of these bikes and enjoy it.
What I'd really like to see for 2017 (and I consider it low-hanging fruit from an engineering standpoint) is a full coverage fairing, something that can be bolted on to prior-year models and ordered as an option when the bike is ordered. That would give you the biggest "bang for the buck" as far as range is concerned. Increased range WITHOUT an increase in charging time. Best of both worlds.
I completely agree and we should all keep saying it as often as it takes until Zero finally does it...if a third party doesn't beat them to it....what ever happened to Corbin making a fairing for the Zero? Is that gonna happen? In any case, its obvious Zero pays attention to owners so if we keep saying we want it then eventually they will deliver.....eventually...
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All the calls for a cruise control, I assume you guys havent seen this: http://www.atlasthrottlelock.com/ (http://www.atlasthrottlelock.com/)
Also, look up BrianTrice's full review....
The Atlas throttle lock really does work, even for supercharging days: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6204 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6204)
It costs less than an integrated cruise control, and cruise control R&D for an OEM is really high (consider the vehicle safety certifications). I'd rather them spend the money more effectively.
A fairing option makes plenty of sense to me. I've heard the parties involved/mentioned are trying to figure out how to make one that will actually sell so they don't lose money on the proposition.
Fairings aren't cheap to develop if you want more than minimal cosmetic benefit. Drag reduction is not an easy task. When you combine that with the fact that you'll only sell a few (dozen? hundred?) units for a while and that the visual styling of it will likely repulse part of the market no matter what style is chosen, it becomes a little clearer what's holding them back.
Personally, I want a reverse gear option, because I know I can't back the bike up certain downhill slopes, and it'll get more difficult with a fairing on the bike, especially a really big fairing that limits leg movement and adds bulk in order to reduce drag...
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Sweet....you will be able to use the Zero app to update the bikes firmware for 2017 models! This will save trips to the dealer if Zero makes changes. This is an awesome change! I just hope they have done it in a secure way....the last thing I need is for someone to hack my bike :( Just a few more days to find out what else they have up their sleeves ;)
I'm checking now to see if I spot any other changes in the app.
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/Zero%20app%20update%20for%202017_zpsm0d6n770.png) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/Zero%20app%20update%20for%202017_zpsm0d6n770.png.html)
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It looks like a slight face lift for the app too....at least on the Android side of the house. Mainly, I notice some yellow highlighting at the bottom for the screen selected and a change to the battery page so that you don't have to toggle tabs in order to see all the battery info....now you can just scroll and for my Nexus 6P that means I can see everything about the battery on one screen except for the number of charge cycles which I don't really pay attention to.
Here is a before picture of the battery screen. Every Android user should be familiar with the Battery 1 and Battery 2 tabs.
Here is the OLD Battery 1 tab
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/Screenshot_20160827-144001_zpsikbanfdy.png) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/Screenshot_20160827-144001_zpsikbanfdy.png.html)
And the OLD Battery 2 tab
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/Screenshot_20160827-144008_zpsivpaahet.png) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/Screenshot_20160827-144008_zpsivpaahet.png.html)
And the NEW Battery screen ;D
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/Screenshot_20161102-195710_zpsttvyguyd.png) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/Screenshot_20161102-195710_zpsttvyguyd.png.html)
And if you scroll down on the new battery screen you see the charge cycles.
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/Screenshot_20161102-195715_zpse66ntu6t.png) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/Screenshot_20161102-195715_zpse66ntu6t.png.html)
I also noticed that the app seemed to connect to my bike a lot quicker than normal. Usually I have to turn the bike on and hold the mode button and then connect. But with the updated app....I had it opened when I walked out to my bike and it just connected automatically! The information was wrong but as soon as I turned the bike on everything looked perfect! I bet the bad data before turning the bike on is because I have a 2014 Zero S. Newer bikes may see better performance.
Other than that it doesn't look like any other changes. The riding screen looks the same and they haven't added any new options to put on the riding screen (like battery voltage or cell balance).
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Back on the battery size for 2017, If the 2017 SR came out with a 14.8 kw/h battery I would seriously consider trading in my 2015 SR for a 2017 SR.
I could add a power tank to my 2015 but I want the light weight and storage area.
Would anyone else be tempted to upgrade?
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Sweet....you will be able to use the Zero app to update the bikes firmware for 2017 models! This will save trips to the dealer if Zero makes changes. This is an awesome change! I just hope they have done it in a secure way....the last thing I need is for someone to hack my bike :( Just a few more days to find out what else they have up their sleeves ;)
I'm checking now to see if I spot any other changes in the app.
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/Zero%20app%20update%20for%202017_zpsm0d6n770.png) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/Zero%20app%20update%20for%202017_zpsm0d6n770.png.html)
j
Thanks I just updated my app. Im not so sure Im in a hurry to update my firmware ive read people start having problems after updating. I guess the bikes are like cell phones.
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The information was wrong but as soon as I turned the bike on everything looked perfect! I bet the bad data before turning the bike on is because I have a 2014 Zero S. Newer bikes may see better performance.
My 2015 FX won't even connect until I turn it on.
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Why would it connect if the bike is off???? ???
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Why would it connect if the bike is off???? ???
Mrwilsn said his connected before he turned it on. My Bluetooth icon is blinking while off and charging. Would be nice to check the status from the living room. Maybe tie it into the home automation system. Come on Zero, give us a hook into IFTTT.
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My '15 SR connects automatically when I'm close to the bike and it is charging (or on for riding). When it's off it does not connect.
Being an internet appliance with a SIM card for GSM and WiFi would be nice for remote checking and control, locating...
Why would it connect if the bike is off???? ???
Mrwilsn said his connected before he turned it on. My Bluetooth icon is blinking while off and charging. Would be nice to check the status from the living room. Maybe tie it into the home automation system. Come on Zero, give us a hook into IFTTT.
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Another thing: Whatever happened to those "Color Kits" I read about at the beginning of the year? It was supposed to be the ability to order additional body panels in whatever color you wanted to change up the look of your bike. I never saw anything more about that.
Yes, I would be interested in this as well. Also is the 2016 S only available in yellow? I didn't see the black model anywhere. I personally would like to get a 2017 black SR!
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Why would it connect if the bike is off???? ???
If the bike is OFF but the bike is plugged in. Doesn't have to be charging, just plugged in. My bike would connect in this same scenario previously but it was inconsistent. I have tried it several times with the latest App update and it seems much improved.
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I personally would like to get a 2017 black SR!
Yeah me too!!
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No black for me. I like yellow, or better yet, lime green. ;D
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I prefer red myself. Just didn't want to have to spend another $3,000 to get the SR version just for the red color. ;)
But having the ability to order "Color Kits" would just be COOL. Even if it was just limited to the colors they currently offer for their existing models. Selling a "cheaper" version in primer would also work; you could take the pieces to your local body shop and get them whatever color you wanted!
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the S and the SR plastics the same overall? Can't you just get the black plastics from the S and have them put onto the SR? Not sure if the 2017's are going to be any different but that is what I would like to get done.
Is that something Zero would do for someone, or would I have to buy the plastics extra and have someone else install them? I'd rather just get it done from them of course, but not sure if they do that.
5 months and counting......
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the S and the SR plastics the same overall? Can't you just get the black plastics from the S and have them put onto the SR? Not sure if the 2017's are going to be any different but that is what I would like to get done.
Is that something Zero would do for someone, or would I have to buy the plastics extra and have someone else install them? I'd rather just get it done from them of course, but not sure if they do that.
5 months and counting......
You can remove the plastics easily with less than $50 in tools, it is a one-beer operation detailed at Unofficial Service Manual: Tank Plastics (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Tank_Plastics).
Tools I recommend are the Chapman Mfg 1916 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6346.0) mini tool kit ($38) for all the metric Allen bolts (7mm bit sold separately), a 3/8" drive Torx-45 socket bit, and a 1/4"F-3/8"M socket drive adapter since the chapman kit includes a 1/4" drive bit. You ought to have a quality torque wrench for regular maintenance i.e. Precision Instruments C2FR50F (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018H3ZAPG) 3/8" drive torque wrench ($127) for putting the seat bolts back on.
If you want used black DSR tank-bag plastics I'll sell you mine for cheap just so they don't go to waste. I paid about $150 for DSR power-tank plastics that I have here and will install soon.
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It looks like a slight face lift for the app too....at least on the Android side of the house. Mainly, I notice some yellow highlighting at the bottom for the screen selected and a change to the battery page so that you don't have to toggle tabs in order to see all the battery info....now you can just scroll and for my Nexus 6P that means I can see everything about the battery on one screen except for the number of charge cycles which I don't really pay attention to.
The iOS app updated with the same visual results; I'm very glad to see all the battery status in one screenful, although I'd be even happier to get a data log of some kind instead of having to take screenshots. Connecting feels a little faster but the process of connecting has bumps, requiring me to leave the app for the system settings, connect there, and then switch back. Hopefully that's just a one time setup cost after the update.
(old complaint) The iOS app has the same popup dialog that Android has, but Bluetooth doesn't work the same so it always feels wrong and the settings button doesn't do anything. As someone who's developed software user interfaces for a very long time on the web and mobile, I'd really recommend just never using a modal dialog at all, and instead offering an ignorable inline/overlay bar with the same effect.
What's really strange is that I can't activate the riding screen after experiencing a glitch as follows:
- The riding screen activated the first time automatically while I was still in portrait orientation (and I wish the riding screen would support both portrait and explicitly exiting within the app instead of using the motorcycle kill switch).
- I rotated to landscape orientation to see the screen.
- I left the riding screen to customize the instruments (since those preferences apparently reset during the upgrade).
- I then tried to return to the riding screen.
- Now the riding screen won't activate automatically or manually, or in demo mode.
I assume this is a minor bug to fix, and hopefully this is a reasonable report for someone with Zero.
I'm definitely glad to see end user firmware update support, even if neither of my bikes will benefit from it, apparently. (somewhat relatedly) During my only DSR service visit, I requested a firmware update, and was disappointed that they unexpectedly could not get the dealer software to recognize and connect to my bike, with no explicit error or message, so I haven't been able to update at all so far. The service team claimed that my bike is the first to get that result for them.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the S and the SR plastics the same overall? Can't you just get the black plastics from the S and have them put onto the SR? Not sure if the 2017's are going to be any different but that is what I would like to get done.
Is that something Zero would do for someone, or would I have to buy the plastics extra and have someone else install them? I'd rather just get it done from them of course, but not sure if they do that.
5 months and counting......
When I bought my FX the dealer offered to do just that. They said that whatever model I bought, if I wanted to change color, they could get, at a reasonable price, whatever color bodywork was available that would fit and change it out for me.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the S and the SR plastics the same overall? Can't you just get the black plastics from the S and have them put onto the SR? Not sure if the 2017's are going to be any different but that is what I would like to get done.
Is that something Zero would do for someone, or would I have to buy the plastics extra and have someone else install them? I'd rather just get it done from them of course, but not sure if they do that.
5 months and counting......
When I bought my FX the dealer offered to do just that. They said that whatever model I bought, if I wanted to change color, they could get, at a reasonable price, whatever color bodywork was available that would fit and change it out for me.
Some dealers do not do this (mine didn't offer and I got distracted with loan paperwork and forgot to ask). Ask explicitly.
I wish my DSR were not entirely black - I have white SP plastics that I'd like to use but they are scratch-and-dent so they'd mess with the finished appearance. I tried applying vinyl but couldn't make it work.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the S and the SR plastics the same overall? Can't you just get the black plastics from the S and have them put onto the SR? Not sure if the 2017's are going to be any different but that is what I would like to get done.
Is that something Zero would do for someone, or would I have to buy the plastics extra and have someone else install them? I'd rather just get it done from them of course, but not sure if they do that.
5 months and counting......
When I bought my FX the dealer offered to do just that. They said that whatever model I bought, if I wanted to change color, they could get, at a reasonable price, whatever color bodywork was available that would fit and change it out for me.
That's very good to know. I will have to check with my dealer and hopefully they will do the same. Did you end up changing the color?
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Some dealers do not do this (mine didn't offer and I got distracted with loan paperwork and forgot to ask). Ask explicitly.
I wish my DSR were not entirely black - I have white SP plastics that I'd like to use but they are scratch-and-dent so they'd mess with the finished appearance. I tried applying vinyl but couldn't make it work.
Would your dealership not do it or did you just forget to
ask? I would think most would do practically anything to get the sale. Will definitely make sure mine will do it, or I will go somewhere else. Have a few near me, so hopefully someone will do it.
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When I bought my FX the dealer offered to do just that. They said that whatever model I bought, if I wanted to change color, they could get, at a reasonable price, whatever color bodywork was available that would fit and change it out for me.
Has the FX ever been available in a colour other than black?
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When I bought my FX the dealer offered to do just that. They said that whatever model I bought, if I wanted to change color, they could get, at a reasonable price, whatever color bodywork was available that would fit and change it out for me.
Has the FX ever been available in a colour other than black?
White for FXP. Other color choices if you go with S(R) or DS(R).
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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Has the FX ever been available in a colour other than black?
The 2013 XU came in red. Same parts I think.
https://www.google.com/search?q=zero+fx+red&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS709US709&hl=en-US&biw=375&bih=591&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYw4Wt8o3QAhXGdSYKHfvNCaUQ_AUIBCgA&dpr=2#imgrc=u_QzhWMIaU6DNM%3A (https://www.google.com/search?q=zero+fx+red&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS709US709&hl=en-US&biw=375&bih=591&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYw4Wt8o3QAhXGdSYKHfvNCaUQ_AUIBCgA&dpr=2#imgrc=u_QzhWMIaU6DNM%3A)
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Some dealers do not do this (mine didn't offer and I got distracted with loan paperwork and forgot to ask). Ask explicitly.
I wish my DSR were not entirely black - I have white SP plastics that I'd like to use but they are scratch-and-dent so they'd mess with the finished appearance. I tried applying vinyl but couldn't make it work.
Would your dealership not do it or did you just forget to
ask? I would think most would do practically anything to get the sale. Will definitely make sure mine will do it, or I will go somewhere else. Have a few near me, so hopefully someone will do it.
They didn't offer and I didn't push them on it. It didn't help that I wasn't playing any games about whether I'd buy it, as an upgrading 2013 owner.
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Here's another thought I'd like to see for 2017. Get rid of that stupid "tank bag" and put a real locking lid over that compartment instead. Hollywood Electrics now sells a very nice carbon fiber cover but it is very expensive. It also proves that it is "do-able." No reason Zero can't make a less expensive plastic cover instead as original equipment. Then, anyone wishing to upgrade the look of the bike could replace it with the Hollywood Electrics' upgrade.
And make it waterproof, too.
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BrianTRice or mrwilsn mentioned seeing exactly that on his factory tour on a previous page of this thread.
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Giving credit where credit is due, it was @Killroy that said he saw lockable storage tank.
I did comment on the fact that he had seen it. While I didn't see this myself, I don't have any reason to doubt him.
Here's another thought I'd like to see for 2017. Get rid of that stupid "tank bag" and put a real locking lid over that compartment instead. Hollywood Electrics now sells a very nice carbon fiber cover but it is very expensive. It also proves that it is "do-able." No reason Zero can't make a less expensive plastic cover instead as original equipment. Then, anyone wishing to upgrade the look of the bike could replace it with the Hollywood Electrics' upgrade.
And make it waterproof, too.
BrianTRice or mrwilsn mentioned seeing exactly that on his factory tour on a previous page of this thread.
When I took the Zero factory tour, I saw a bunch of tank plastics with hard lockable storage compartments.
So, probably no more small zipper bags.
Last year Zero announced the 2016 lineup at AIMEXPO. This year AIMEXPO starts 13 October. The word on the street is that they will announce the 2017 lineup at EICMA in Milan Italy which starts on 8 November.
It seems unlikely that Zero would skip AIMEXPO which is in Florida to travel to Europe to make an announcement at the biggest motorcycle convention of the year just to say "check out the 2017 bikes which are mostly the same as last year but with a little more range!". Not trying to set expectations too high...just sayin.
I predict the look of the bikes will be mostly unchanged (maybe a new color...@Killroy mentioned lockable storage tank) but there will be more improvements under the hood.
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I don't recall if it is lockable or not. Tank bag is now flip top tank lid.
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New dealer just contacted me and said they've got 2017 Zeros in. Is he scamming me to go out and visit him? Said they were released this month. I'm going to be pissed if I get there and find 2016s.
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New dealer just contacted me and said they've got 2017 Zeros in. Is he scamming me to go out and visit him? Said they were released this month. I'm going to be pissed if I get there and find 2016s.
They will not be 2017 bikes.
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New dealer just contacted me and said they've got 2017 Zeros in. Is he scamming me to go out and visit him? Said they were released this month. I'm going to be pissed if I get there and find 2016s.
Release date Nov 8th ...
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New dealer just contacted me and said they've got 2017 Zeros in. Is he scamming me to go out and visit him? Said they were released this month. I'm going to be pissed if I get there and find 2016s.
How far away is he from you? You might want to get there and have the scoop. If they turn out to be 2016's do a 180 degree turn at their doorstep and never visit them again.
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New dealer just contacted me and said they've got 2017 Zeros in. Is he scamming me to go out and visit him? Said they were released this month. I'm going to be pissed if I get there and find 2016s.
Release date Nov 8th ...
I thought it was early December? If it's in 3 days, maybe they really did get a 2017 early..
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If he's a new dealer there may have been no point shipping him a 2016, especially if little has changed. I'd pop in of it wasn't too far away.
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It would be reasonable to have the new models in dealer showrooms the same day they make the announcement.
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It would be reasonable to have the new models in dealer showrooms the same day they make the announcement.
They say they're on display and ready to ride right now.
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It would be reasonable to have the new models in dealer showrooms the same day they make the announcement.
They say they're on display and ready to ride right now.
Go take some pictures to share?
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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The 2013 cells had a potting material that was found over time could react with the pouch cell itself, and this was fixed in 2014.
Where did you get this information? Is there any link or official information existing?
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I can't burn my source. ;)
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2017 pics are on facebook for those that haven't seen yet.
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Here's a link to a photo of the new tank cover. No more tank bag, a locking plastic lid instead. Makes much more sense!
http://tinyurl.com/hf2lz7b (http://tinyurl.com/hf2lz7b)
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retrofit?
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Where do you get this plastic tank cover? Will it fit on a 2016 SR?
http://tinyurl.com/hf2lz7b (http://tinyurl.com/hf2lz7b)
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Saw the '17 DSR today, side by side with the '16. I was not interested in riding them, but took a good look.
- new wider and beefier belt with bigger teeth
- new battery pack, 2 modules vs. 4. Same capacity, 13kW as '16. A "half pack" option of the S and DS will be available as someone mentioned
- the new tank cover looks nice, but it does not stretch for that little extra half inch storage and needs a key to open/close (good and bad)
- painted plastics, like car paint
- more torque higher top speed. Not sure if I heard right, 116 and 106 respectively for the DSR.
- there is some new plastic on the front of the battery, not much different in looks than the old one
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My guess is that when the new higher capacity cell pouches become available, more/thicker version can be squeezed in each of the modules. Just speculation though...
- new battery pack, 2 modules vs. 4. Same capacity, 13kW as '16. A "half pack" option of the S and DS will be available as someone mentioned
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Saw the '17 DSR today, side by side with the '16. I was not interested in riding them, but took a good look.
- new wider and beefier belt with bigger teeth
- new battery pack, 2 modules vs. 4. Same capacity, 13kW as '16. A "half pack" option of the S and DS will be available as someone mentioned
- the new tank cover looks nice, but it does not stretch for that little extra half inch storage and needs a key to open/close (good and bad)
- painted plastics, like car paint
- more torque higher top speed. Not sure if I heard right, 116 and 106 respectively for the DSR.
- there is some new plastic on the front of the battery, not much different in looks than the old one
Is the space under the tank cover the same triangle space or is it square/rectangle and bigger now?
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Where on Facebook. Nothing shows on the official Zero page.
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Where on Facebook. Nothing shows on the official Zero page.
Zero owners group.
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Sorry, did not look inside. The shape seen from the top seems the same, so I suspect it is the same inside. Don't know about retrofitting either.
Is the space under the tank cover the same triangle space or is it square/rectangle and bigger now?
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Sorry, did not look inside. The shape seen from the top seems the same, so I suspect it is the same inside. Don't know about retrofitting either.
I don't remember, did Zero fix the ABS brake line routing which blocks view of turn signal indicator on 2016 DSR?
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They did! Can barely see the brake lines anymore!
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Did you notice any charger changes? Battery size is OK (of course it could always be bigger) if they could add a (much) faster charger
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Nope, same 110v inlet. Couldn't be any faster than 1.4kW. One had the tank charger, but appeared to be the same speed as before.
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Nope, same 110v inlet. Couldn't be any faster than 1.4kW. One had the tank charger, but appeared to be the same speed as before.
It also supprts 230V ;)
Could still be that they tinkered with the existing charger,, although I don't suspect it.
The many years old current charger is in dire need of a modern replacement. You must be able to draw more power in a box with the same physical dimensions with new technology.
Even stuff like delayed starting and limiting the current(for when it's hot) can be added without too much af a hassle right?
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Nope, same 110v inlet. Couldn't be any faster than 1.4kW. One had the tank charger, but appeared to be the same speed as before.
I'm really looking forward to a reasonably fast charging solution (>=1C). Technically it's possible and other improvements leaked so far seem to be only minor changes. Can't wait for the official announcement although I don't expect to them to release an improved charge tank :/
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It would have to be CCS or Chademo. The inlets for those are kind of large though. At least with CCS, it could have a built in 6.6kW onboard charger for J1772 charging. Put that in there and OMG, you've got a great touring bike. I'm sure the heat and space limitation would be difficult. Not to mention, the (2016) batteries aren't high enough voltage for DCFC standards now, I believe.
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It would have to be CCS or Chademo.
I don't know about their market strategy but for Europe they could easily come up with an AC charger since nearly every public charging station supports 11+kW which would be ~1C for the latest S/DS/SR/DSR (since you can't have a charge tank and a power tank simultaneously). But I'd also go with CCS which is a European standard while Chademo is more and more pushed out of the market here. Problem is that the electricity infrastructure (and the emobility politics) in Europe and America is/are very different starting with the normal outlets which have 240V (?) in Europe. Or the fact that every household ground cable has three phases instead of one.
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Saw the '17 DSR today, side by side with the '16. I was not interested in riding them, but took a good look.
- new wider and beefier belt with bigger teeth
- new battery pack, 2 modules vs. 4. Same capacity, 13kW as '16. A "half pack" option of the S and DS will be available as someone mentioned
- the new tank cover looks nice, but it does not stretch for that little extra half inch storage and needs a key to open/close (good and bad)
- painted plastics, like car paint
- more torque higher top speed. Not sure if I heard right, 116 and 106 respectively for the DSR.
- there is some new plastic on the front of the battery, not much different in looks than the old one
Nice.
- I'll bet the existing belt was the limiter on torque/top speed.
- Okay, from the photos, it looks like there is still a monolith option in addition to the 6.5 option. I still stand by my assessment that the 6.5 upgrades to a 13 by adding another 6.5 (I saw a name and hardware frame suggesting how this is done; guessing the hardware I saw only goes on the relevant frames).
- The tank cover looks great. I hope we can order it for older/existing models. At the very least, I'd like to hack out the bin to use to access my tank-installed charger. I'll give up storage in exchange for more weather protection for sure.
- New battery front plastic... huh. That might have more than a cosmetic reason, if I'm connecting the right dots.
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Ok I feel like a kid opening presents before Christmas but can someone post a link to this "owners page"?
Thanks, sorry I don't Facebook so I can't just search for it.
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Ok I feel like a kid opening presents before Christmas but can someone post a link to this "owners page"?
Thanks, sorry I don't Facebook so I can't just search for it.
Owner Resources (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/) perhaps?
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Ok I feel like a kid opening presents before Christmas but can someone post a link to this "owners page"?
Thanks, sorry I don't Facebook so I can't just search for it.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/)
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A bit disappointed we didn't get the 32ah cells cos I would have upgraded, looks like I will have to wait another year now. Everything else seems good.
It's hard to tell from the pics, but the front plastic looks the same as before, but the tank is different on the front sides.
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- I'll bet the existing belt was the limiter on torque/top speed.
Hey BrianTRice,
what do you mean?
I thought the limiter on torque/top speed was the controller.
Thanks,
Mario.
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- I'll bet the existing belt was the limiter on torque/top speed.
what do you mean?
I thought the limiter on torque/top speed was the controller.
Maybe it wasn't the only limit! But there's no sign that the controller changed for 2017 (yet).
EDIT: Of course, the controller is still the limiting factor for thermal factors with an IPM motor. So, they're probably squeezing the new figures out of the existing controllers and cutbacks kick in as appropriate.
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If the controller didn't change, and the motor didn't change, then a simple belt-and-pinion change with a firmware flash would make the bike faster with the added bonus of a stronger belt...
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The motor changed. I took a pic of the part number.
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Not long to wait now, all will be revealed.
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its here: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/motorcycles/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/motorcycles/)
little more power due to new 775amp controller
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The Zero website is live with the 2017 info!
Unlimited Mileage/5 Year Warranty
Storage Tank Lockable Storage
New SEVCON Controllers
Zero SR (116 ft-lb torque; 70hp up from 106 ft-lb ; 67 hp) (775 amp up from 660 amp) (Gearing changed from 130/30 to 90/20) (0-60 times not listed....because the old bikes aren't actually 3.3s but the new bikes are)
Zero S (81 ft-lb torque; 60hp up from 68 ft-lb ; 54 hp) (550 amp up from 420 amp) (No change to gearing)
S/DS ZF6.5
Lockable storage in the monolith
Compatibility w/ power tank or charge tank
Paint instead of colored plastic
New graphite color for DSR
Bike Firmware updates via the Zero app
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Have to say that I am disappointed with this year's upgrade. After test driving two electric motorcycles, I am interested in replacing my ICE bike with something like a Zero - but this model upgrade will not convince me to switch :(
Why is there no full fairing, no suspension/braking system upgrade, traction control, LED lights?
Will wait for another year - or maybe a typical major motorcycle brand (Honda, Yamaha) will enter this market soon? Or maybe Energetica or Alta will announce something that will tick my boxes.
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Hey guppie70! Sorry your disappointed friend.
Zero is still a small company. They have a hand full of people in each department. Want a full fairing... Make one. Suspension and brakes are great. Get the suspension adjusted and adapted by a specialist(should do this with any bike). Swap out the pads and the brakes are great! Traction control is going to drive the cost unreasonable up and takes development time. Led lights push the price with little to no gain in range. Like really, just do the math!
Waiting for a major manufacturer will take years and people like you didn't build a brand like Harley or the others. I'm sorry that the experience alone didn't sell you on the bike but to each their own.
I love my 2016 DSR. You couldn't pay me to ride any of the museum pieces on the road. In my humble opinion, Zero has it refined to a degree that leaves others in the dust. But someone needs to support these other start ups and that is important. Safe travels.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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The Zero website is live with the 2017 info!
Unlimited Mileage/5 Year Warranty
Storage Tank Lockable Storage
New SEVCON Controllers
Zero SR (116 ft-lb torque; 70hp up from 106 ft-lb ; 67 hp) (775 amp up from 660 amp) (Gearing changed from 130/30 to 90/20) (0-60 times not listed....because the old bikes aren't actually 3.3s but the new bikes are)
Zero S (81 ft-lb torque; 60hp up from 68 ft-lb ; 54 hp) (550 amp up from 420 amp) (No change to gearing)
S/DS ZF6.5
Lockable storage in the monolith
Compatibility w/ power tank or charge tank
Paint instead of colored plastic
New graphite color for DSR
Bike Firmware updates via the Zero app
Also IPM motor across the whole range now (including FX).
The S 6.5 has new belt (20/90) but the S 13 and 13+pt has old belt (28/130).
FX and FXS has 11% more torque and 5% more power.
FX and FXS also has new belt (20/90).
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Its like they listened to our main gripes... and fixed them :)
Super excited about the wider belt, SR gearing, new controller, lockable storage and over the air updates.
Paint on the plastics is pretty big too.
excellent moves in the right direction.
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I hope that the locking tank can be fitted to older 2013+ my bikes, I wonder if you can leave it unlocked and just have quick access with a latch
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I wish they would upgrade the charger or charge tank, that's long overdue in my opinion and the thing that's kept me waiting to buy one. Maybe next year?
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I agree with the fact that native j1772 charging at 3.3 kW minimum should be included, having people ask how long it takes to charge seems to be the biggest "not for me" moment
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Hey guppie70! Sorry your disappointed friend.
Zero is still a small company. They have a hand full of people in each department. Want a full fairing... Make one. Suspension and brakes are great. Get the suspension adjusted and adapted by a specialist(should do this with any bike). Swap out the pads and the brakes are great! Traction control is going to drive the cost unreasonable up and takes development time. Led lights push the price with little to no gain in range. Like really, just do the math!
Waiting for a major manufacturer will take years and people like you didn't build a brand like Harley or the others. I'm sorry that the experience alone didn't sell you on the bike but to each their own.
I love my 2016 DSR. You couldn't pay me to ride any of the museum pieces on the road. In my humble opinion, Zero has it refined to a degree that leaves others in the dust. But someone needs to support these other start ups and that is important. Safe travels.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Hi ElectricZen!
For around 21k EUR (in Europe with Charge Tank option that I would need for commuting) it's just not a competitive offer. Even though I really liked the electric drivetrain. Am convinced that this is the future for motorcycles, but it's simply too expensive at this moment.
I understand that Zero needs to make choices, but if LED lights are so cheap - that is a really quick win then right? Reading the stories on this forum it seems that adding a proper fairing increases milage significantly. That also sounds like a low-tech quick win to me.
But I am probably over simplifying things and I agree that Zero deserves a lot of credit for what they are achieving.
Just have to wait some more then...
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I am also somewhat disappointed in the 2017 :(
Was really hoping for a range improvement, but theres only a 5 mile range improvement with the power tank.
I was at least expecting new colors.. I want an S, but I hate that I'm going to be stuck with yellow... Do you think they will let me have an S with an SR color? I don't even want red either, but I'd much prefer it to yellow...
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Why would they make a 6.5 S model? Yeah I know it's cheaper, but that range is pretty abysmal.
And they're trying to sell the 6.5s on the extra storage. Do they really think people wanted more storage over range? O.o
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Why would they make a 6.5 S model? Yeah I know it's cheaper, but that range is pretty abysmal.
And they're trying to sell the 6.5s on the extra storage. Do they really think people wanted more storage over range? O.o
My guess is that the 6.5 is a bottom-feeder so they can advertise a low "starting" price. Something (in concept) like BMW does with their motorcycles. They advertise a low base cost, but no one ever pays that price. They end up dumping in $4000 of factory-installed options on to the base price, because everyone wants to have the bike of their dreams and are willing to pay for it. I would be very surprised if Zero actually sells any 6.5 models to a individual customer. Maybe certain public institutions or agencies using them to patrol a small area like a college campus would have a use for that model, though. ???
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Can anyone tell me if the thicker drive belt on the 2017 model is worth paying more for - or waiting for - over a 2016 bike which can be had cheaper - and sooner? Are there any problems with belts snapping or failing on the 2016 FXS that specifically mean one SHOULD hold off buying until the 2017 model is available locally?
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Can anyone tell me if the thicker drive belt on the 2017 model is worth paying more for - or waiting for - over a 2016 bike which can be had cheaper - and sooner? Are there any problems with belts snapping or failing on the 2016 FXS that specifically mean one SHOULD hold off buying until the 2017 model is available locally?
question for you.
When riding a supermoto bike, do you slow down for speed bumps or speed up?
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If anything, I think the increased torque would be the main reason to prefer a '17 FXS over a '16.
I notice you're in the UK too. The incoming £1500 subsidy is an even bigger reason to wait - unless that '16 FXS has a really good deal on it.
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The Zero website is live with the 2017 info!
Unlimited Mileage/5 Year Warranty
Storage Tank Lockable Storage
New SEVCON Controllers
Zero SR (116 ft-lb torque; 70hp up from 106 ft-lb ; 67 hp) (775 amp up from 660 amp) (Gearing changed from 130/30 to 90/20) (0-60 times not listed....because the old bikes aren't actually 3.3s but the new bikes are)
Zero S (81 ft-lb torque; 60hp up from 68 ft-lb ; 54 hp) (550 amp up from 420 amp) (No change to gearing)
S/DS ZF6.5
Lockable storage in the monolith
Compatibility w/ power tank or charge tank
Paint instead of colored plastic
New graphite color for DSR
Bike Firmware updates via the Zero app
You upgrading?
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@ericramos1990 - The painted colors looks significantly different in person than on a monitor. The yellow of the S and the red of the SR are a departure from the previous years' molded-in colors. To my eye, they both look for more refined/vibrant/premium. 2017 body kits will be sold separately as accessories and are compatible with 2013-newer Zeros. Check with your dealer.
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Can anyone tell me if the thicker drive belt on the 2017 model is worth paying more for - or waiting for - over a 2016 bike which can be had cheaper - and sooner? Are there any problems with belts snapping or failing on the 2016 FXS that specifically mean one SHOULD hold off buying until the 2017 model is available locally?
Belts snap a lot, cost a lot and they will totally incapacitate your bike while you wait for a dealer to order a new one.
I have a 2016 FXS and I'd really rather have the 2017.
Besides that, you should know that the range on the FXS is really limited. Make sure you're OK with that.
What I mean by that is that it's really fun to ride the FXS and I wish it had twice the range.
Also takes 8 hours to charge with stock charger.
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@ericramos1990 - The painted colors looks significantly different in person than on a monitor. The yellow of the S and the red of the SR are a departure from the previous years' molded-in colors. To my eye, they both look for more refined/vibrant/premium. 2017 body kits will be sold separately as accessories and are compatible with 2013-newer Zeros. Check with your dealer.
I don't really care how premium the color is to be honest, I just want it to be in the color I personally want it in. (Black, yes I'm boring, yes it's harder to see, but I plan on wearing night viz stuff.)
Cool, how did you hear about the body kits? I hope the follow through with that, I did see a supposed 2017 black Zero S/SR on the Zero owners facebook group.
It would be nice if they just allow the customer to buy it with the color they want, instead of buying full price for a bike with a color they don't want, and then having to buy a new body kit. It would totally be worth it if they made a full fairing body kit tho
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@ericramos1990 - The painted colors looks significantly different in person than on a monitor. The yellow of the S and the red of the SR are a departure from the previous years' molded-in colors. To my eye, they both look for more refined/vibrant/premium. 2017 body kits will be sold separately as accessories and are compatible with 2013-newer Zeros. Check with your dealer.
I don't really care how premium the color is to be honest, I just want it to be in the color I personally want it in. (Black, yes I'm boring, yes it's harder to see, but I plan on wearing night viz stuff.)
Cool, how did you hear about the body kits? I hope the follow through with that, I did see a supposed 2017 black Zero S/SR on the Zero owners facebook group.
It would be nice if they just allow the customer to buy it with the color they want, instead of buying full price for a bike with a color they don't want, and then having to buy a new body kit. It would totally be worth it if they made a full fairing body kit tho
Ditto, I too am boring and want a black SR. Totally agree, we should be able to get it in the color we want without paying more.
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@ericramos1990 - The painted colors looks significantly different in person than on a monitor. The yellow of the S and the red of the SR are a departure from the previous years' molded-in colors. To my eye, they both look for more refined/vibrant/premium. 2017 body kits will be sold separately as accessories and are compatible with 2013-newer Zeros. Check with your dealer.
I don't really care how premium the color is to be honest, I just want it to be in the color I personally want it in. (Black, yes I'm boring, yes it's harder to see, but I plan on wearing night viz stuff.)
Cool, how did you hear about the body kits? I hope the follow through with that, I did see a supposed 2017 black Zero S/SR on the Zero owners facebook group.
It would be nice if they just allow the customer to buy it with the color they want, instead of buying full price for a bike with a color they don't want, and then having to buy a new body kit. It would totally be worth it if they made a full fairing body kit tho
@ericramos1990 - The painted colors looks significantly different in person than on a monitor. The yellow of the S and the red of the SR are a departure from the previous years' molded-in colors. To my eye, they both look for more refined/vibrant/premium. 2017 body kits will be sold separately as accessories and are compatible with 2013-newer Zeros. Check with your dealer.
I don't really care how premium the color is to be honest, I just want it to be in the color I personally want it in. (Black, yes I'm boring, yes it's harder to see, but I plan on wearing night viz stuff.)
Cool, how did you hear about the body kits? I hope the follow through with that, I did see a supposed 2017 black Zero S/SR on the Zero owners facebook group.
It would be nice if they just allow the customer to buy it with the color they want, instead of buying full price for a bike with a color they don't want, and then having to buy a new body kit. It would totally be worth it if they made a full fairing body kit tho
Ditto, I too am boring and want a black SR. Totally agree, we should be able to get it in the color we want without paying more.
It's not feasible for Zero to actually paint the bike to the customer request without a significant premium for that service. So the only other way to offer different color options is to build different color options. This approach results in bikes of the least popular color being left over at the end of the season which then need to be sold at a discount. When Zero starts selling a lot more bikes per year they may be able to do this (actually they already tried and have offered two colors of Zero S in the past). Until then, one color per model.
It sucks that you have to go this route....but if you really want a black SR and you don't care about paint vs. colored plastic....buy an SR then order plastics for a 2015 Zero S. All the plastic total will only cost about $300 (depending on how much the dealer decides to mark up....which should be minimal or none if you are buying a bike from them). Of course, that also means no locking storage. You could also buy 2016 DSR plastic and have a graphite color bike but would need to either paint the front fender or find some other option for the front fender (like maybe get a front fender from a 2015 Zero S and then buy everything else from a 2016 DSR).
Also, FYI...@dv8sean is a Zero employee....I thought they had a policy of stating this any time they post so he must have just forgotten this time. ;D
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The Zero website is live with the 2017 info!
Unlimited Mileage/5 Year Warranty
Storage Tank Lockable Storage
New SEVCON Controllers
Zero SR (116 ft-lb torque; 70hp up from 106 ft-lb ; 67 hp) (775 amp up from 660 amp) (Gearing changed from 130/30 to 90/20) (0-60 times not listed....because the old bikes aren't actually 3.3s but the new bikes are)
Zero S (81 ft-lb torque; 60hp up from 68 ft-lb ; 54 hp) (550 amp up from 420 amp) (No change to gearing)
S/DS ZF6.5
Lockable storage in the monolith
Compatibility w/ power tank or charge tank
Paint instead of colored plastic
New graphite color for DSR
Bike Firmware updates via the Zero app
You upgrading?
If by upgrading you mean upgrading from a one bike stable to a two bike stable....then....YES! I am upgrading! I'm not going to get rid of my 2014 Zero S...at least not right away. Just got a quote for a 2017 Zero SR with a few options and I will be going in tomorrow to give my down payment and finish up paper work etc. Unfortunately for me, they are filling all the dealer demo orders first before they are fullfilling any customer orders. It makes sense that they would want to get the bikes to dealers so they can get butts in seats and sell more bikes....but I'm impatient...haha
Anyway, I should hopefully have the bike by the end of the month....maybe even by Thanskgiving but I won't hold my breath ;D
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@mrwilsn I was thinking if we could just get the plastics in a different color we shouldn't have to pay extra, it's not like I want the red ones also. I did not realize that I would lose the lockable storage if I went with the black plastics from the S. Looks like I will be getting red and maybe down the line having it painted.
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@mrwilsn I was thinking if we could just get the plastics in a different color we shouldn't have to pay extra, it's not like I want the red ones also. I did not realize that I would lose the lockable storage if I went with the black plastics from the S. Looks like I will be getting red and maybe down the line having it painted.
Believe me...to an extent I agree with you....I am also a black bike kind of guy (although I like just a little bit of flair...see photos) and wish I could get a black Zero SR without paying a premium. I haven't figured out yet how I will convert my 2017 SR to black or if I will just keep it red. Since I will probably put a fast charger in the tank I might just go with 2015 Zero S plastic.
However, I understand why Zero doesn't offer the options at no cost. Keep in mind that even a car OEM that sells millions of cars will sometimes charge a premium for certain colors so even though I wish they offered the color I like (black) I understand that no matter what color(s) they offer someone won't be happy (if they decided to make the SR black I guarantee you there would be a bunch of people that would complain and cry about how much they loved the red and why did Zero change blah blah blah). For the motorcycle industry it's pretty much industry standard to offer any given model in just one or maybe two colors.
I recommend just talking to your dealer....I'm sure you can work something out....probably not a color change at no cost but maybe for just a little extra.
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/IMG_20161021_230105_zpsvx6werap.jpg) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/IMG_20161021_230105_zpsvx6werap.jpg.html)
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/IMG_20161010_145345_zpszx4vqajg.jpg) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/IMG_20161010_145345_zpszx4vqajg.jpg.html)
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@mrwilsn I was thinking if we could just get the plastics in a different color we shouldn't have to pay extra, it's not like I want the red ones also. I did not realize that I would lose the lockable storage if I went with the black plastics from the S. Looks like I will be getting red and maybe down the line having it painted.
Believe me...to an extent I agree with you....I am also a black bike kind of guy (although I like just a little bit of flair...see photos) and wish I could get a black Zero SR without paying a premium. I haven't figured out yet how I will convert my 2017 SR to black or if I will just keep it red. Since I will probably put a fast charger in the tank I might just go with 2015 Zero S plastic.
However, I understand why Zero doesn't offer the options at no cost. Keep in mind that even a car OEM that sells millions of cars will sometimes charge a premium for certain colors so even though I wish they offered the color I like (black) I understand that no matter what color(s) they offer someone won't be happy (if they decided to make the SR black I guarantee you there would be a bunch of people that would complain and cry about how much they loved the red and why did Zero change blah blah blah). For the motorcycle industry it's pretty much industry standard to offer any given model in just one or maybe two colors.
I recommend just talking to your dealer....I'm sure you can work something out....probably not a color change at no cost but maybe for just a little extra.
I will definitely talk to my dealer, but I do not want to lose the lockable storage. I understand not having a lot of color choices, and you can't please everyone, so I will have to explore my options. Seems like I will have to deal with the red, and who knows it might grow on me. In case it doesn't I will see how much it would cost to have it painted black. I too like a little flair but love the black canvas to work off of. Not opposed to red just not that much of it, some red accents would be nice.
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I love the red so there you go, mrwilsn is right. Can't please everyone.
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I love the red so there you go, mrwilsn is right. Can't please everyone.
That's right, only wish they were pleasing me.... :P
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Here is what I did to another bike that I had. Like I said love the red for accent just not so much of it.
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Not the best picture but can't forget my tank protector.
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@Straightedg4lif that looks sweet!
I was really set on getting an S, since it's a bit cheaper, and I don't mind not having the SR torque. But at this point, I think I'd rather go for the SR since I really really don't like the yellow, and hey at least I'll get some more torque with the SR. I don't even like red, I just really don't want a yellow bike.
Ugghh yellow is just so unappealing to me on a bike, they should just keep it simple in having black or white options, I think that's a solid option for people.
Sorry, rant over lol.
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@Straightedg4lif that looks sweet!
I was really set on getting an S, since it's a bit cheaper, and I don't mind not having the SR torque. But at this point, I think I'd rather go for the SR since I really really don't like the yellow, and hey at least I'll get some more torque with the SR. I don't even like red, I just really don't want a yellow bike.
Ugghh yellow is just so unappealing to me on a bike, they should just keep it simple in having black or white options, I think that's a solid option for people.
Sorry, rant over lol.
I totally get your rant! I also agree about black and white because then you can add things to it to make it more your style.
I think if I was wanting an S I would go with the SR as well just based on the color ( yellow is not my cup of tea either). Wait a minute maybe that's Zero's whole plan...for people to buy the more expensive bike....haha.
I'm looking forward to more torque, and red is by far the better color choice. Plus I don't think it would cost too much to have it painted since there's really not that much that needs to be changed. Keep me posted with what you end up doing, I'm curious by nature.
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The way Zero has their dealers setup now with just a couple demos and everything else from the factory that could make color options much easier. The only real draw back now is they put the badge on the tank. All the tanks are the exact same just the model badges are different. I don't know where else they could badge it, battery maybe, so that you could just tell them which tank and fender you wanted.
Seems doable.
I'd want the orange in a "R" package of some sort myself.
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I love the color of my yellow Zero S and am happy with the 2017 yellow color too. :) For me black is too stealthy in traffic and white looks too plain unless it is offset with Bold New Graphics. ;)
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"Also, FYI...@dv8sean is a Zero employee....I thought they had a policy of stating this any time they post so he must have just forgotten this time. ;D"
My name is Sean. I am a Zero Motorcycles employee, and I approved this message.
Body kits are relatively inexpensive ... check with a Zero dealer for specific pricing info.
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What's the typical wait time to receive a bike after ordering it? I know the dealers or most don't have the 2017 demos yet, but when they are readily available does it take a long time to get one when ready to purchase? I'm still months away from getting mine but trying to see when I need to start inquiring about them.
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Took about a week for me (SF).
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Took about a week for me (SF).
Nice, thanks!
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If you don't like the body color, why not take it to a local paint shop? There isn't that much bodywork on it anyway, it shouldn't be that expensive...
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If you don't like the body color, why not take it to a local paint shop? There isn't that much bodywork on it anyway, it shouldn't be that expensive...
That is probably what I will end up doing in the future. I was just thinking that if they would change them out to my color choice that would be the easier way to go. That way I don't have to take my bike somewhere and not have the use of it for a few days or so.
I figured I could just place my order for my bike, and instead of perhaps a power tank being installed they could swap colors. I could pick it up all ready to go. I will be checking with my dealer on the best options for me.
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The Zero website is live with the 2017 info!
Unlimited Mileage/5 Year Warranty
Storage Tank Lockable Storage
New SEVCON Controllers
Zero SR (116 ft-lb torque; 70hp up from 106 ft-lb ; 67 hp) (775 amp up from 660 amp) (Gearing changed from 130/30 to 90/20) (0-60 times not listed....because the old bikes aren't actually 3.3s but the new bikes are)
Zero S (81 ft-lb torque; 60hp up from 68 ft-lb ; 54 hp) (550 amp up from 420 amp) (No change to gearing)
S/DS ZF6.5
Lockable storage in the monolith
Compatibility w/ power tank or charge tank
Paint instead of colored plastic
New graphite color for DSR
Bike Firmware updates via the Zero app
You upgrading?
If by upgrading you mean upgrading from a one bike stable to a two bike stable....then....YES! I am upgrading! I'm not going to get rid of my 2014 Zero S...at least not right away. Just got a quote for a 2017 Zero SR with a few options and I will be going in tomorrow to give my down payment and finish up paper work etc. Unfortunately for me, they are filling all the dealer demo orders first before they are fullfilling any customer orders. It makes sense that they would want to get the bikes to dealers so they can get butts in seats and sell more bikes....but I'm impatient...haha
Anyway, I should hopefully have the bike by the end of the month....maybe even by Thanskgiving but I won't hold my breath ;D
Well it took like a month for me to get a top box rack, so I cant imagine the bike delivery being any faster :-\ BTW if you want a black tank, why not just swap the old S tank for the new SR's? Or... buy a new black tank and donate that shiny painted red tank to zeropointzero ;)
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Thinking about the 32ah cells, here is a bit of a problem. If you had a power tank as well then the charge time would be about 12 hours, a bit to long to be practical, so Zero needs a new onboard charger of at least 2.5 kw/h to move to the new cells.
OR
Drop the power tank option for either storage or charge tank. But that would be cutting max. range which some ppl want.
I think next year we will see a more powerful onboard charger and a 14.3 kw/h pack (or more).
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Thinking about the 32ah cells, here is a bit of a problem. If you had a power tank as well then the charge time would be about 12 hours, a bit to long to be practical, so Zero needs a new onboard charger of at least 2.5 kw/h to move to the new cells.
OR
Drop the power tank option for either storage or charge tank. But that would be cutting max. range which some ppl want.
I think next year we will see a more powerful onboard charger and a 14.3 kw/h pack (or more).
The problem is a bigger charger will require a J1772 plug. A 120V outlet can typically only handle 15amps. Some can go up to 20amps but the outlet is dumb and can't tell the charger what's available. Therefore 1.3kW is pretty close to the max you can safely pull.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Don't forget that a lot of the world has 220V (at about 13A max I think), so a much higher limit.
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Therefore 1.3kW is pretty close to the max you can safely pull.
It's a problem with multiple solutions, and it depends on the individual circumstance which is the best solution. I think Zero got it right; mount an overnight charger onboard, and let the customer decide if he wants another solution and purchase it separately.
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The factory onboard charger is a "maintenance charger".
The charge tank accessory is a slow charger ;)
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Don't forget that a lot of the world has 220V (at about 13A max I think), so a much higher limit.
The granny cable I got with my Kia Soul EV is rated at a maximum of 2.2kW. However, I've never seen it pull more than 2kW. The trouble is that it can up to 13-14 hours to get a full charge. Pulling that on a 240V socket is enough to melt it. I don't have any melting problems with my Zero.
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Therefore 1.3kW is pretty close to the max you can safely pull.
It's a problem with multiple solutions, and it depends on the individual circumstance which is the best solution. I think Zero got it right; mount an overnight charger onboard, and let the customer decide if he wants another solution and purchase it separately.
I tend to agree, but then they should make the "fast" charger a lot faster ala the DigiNow, then it would be possible to go on longer trips without having to stop many hours to charge. A Charge Tank that could charge with the same speed as the DigiNow SuperCharger would be perfect.
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I notice that the 2017 specs no longer include acceleration. The higher torques should give a faster 0-60mph time, but none are given, I wonder why.
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Don't forget that a lot of the world has 220V (at about 13A max I think), so a much higher limit.
More or less the whole world except parts of America and Japan:
(http://www.algert.com/Panasonic/Technical/images/PlugTypeMap.gif)
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How about a charger that maxes out at, let's say, 3.3kW but that starts at default 1.3kW and can be tuned via the app? That way you can choose how fast it charges based on the available power...
And then, ofcourse, a 11kW J1772 charger would be nice, or a CCS ;)
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I notice that the 2017 specs no longer include acceleration. The higher torques should give a faster 0-60mph time, but none are given, I wonder why.
The FX and FXS should have a small acceleration regression due to the taller gearing. Though really this is just shifting the peak powerband closer to highway speeds .. and SHOULD significantly raise the top speed and sustained top speed. Will be very curious to see if this is the case or if not, if it is an artificial limit?
The Zero S, DS, SR should be quicker than their 2016 counterparts.
Acceleration is hugely dependent upon rider weight. 3.3 seconds was a great marketing claim in 2014. No independent instrumented review was able to back those numbers up, possibly because they were using 200 pound riders instead of 100 pound riders. Also - most manufacturers don't claim 0-60 times. Zero may have decided that ship has sailed.
It also gives them an opportunity to "reset"; if they choose to report an acceleration claim in the future, they don't risk an immediate comparison against the previous year.
Or it may have just been left off their press releases. Who knows.
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Therefore 1.3kW is pretty close to the max you can safely pull.
It's a problem with multiple solutions, and it depends on the individual circumstance which is the best solution. I think Zero got it right; mount an overnight charger onboard, and let the customer decide if he wants another solution and purchase it separately.
I tend to agree, but then they should make the "fast" charger a lot faster ala the DigiNow, then it would be possible to go on longer trips without having to stop many hours to charge. A Charge Tank that could charge with the same speed as the DigiNow SuperCharger would be perfect.
$$$$$! Most ppl want the bike cheaper not more expensive.
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I notice that the 2017 specs no longer include acceleration. The higher torques should give a faster 0-60mph time, but none are given, I wonder why.
Acceleration times depend on the weight of the rider and thats different for everyone. The acceleration times were recorded with a 70kg (I think) rider, most of us weigh more than that so is there much point?
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The FX and FXS should have a small acceleration regression due to the taller gearing
But it has more torque so expect faster than 2016.
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See the problem with a bigger battery! The charging solution needs careful thought.
Why not have a charger that on 110V it charges at 1.3kw/h and on 240V charges at 2kw/h so our american friends can choose to install a dedicated 240V charging outlet if they need to.
Or you could have a 2 into 1 plug (it would plug into 2 outlets on different circuits) as another solution for the USA.
But maybe the simplest way is to have a 3kw/h and J1772 (but fitting into the same place as the current onboard charger) but this would raise the price of the bike and we would all need to install a J1772 at home.
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In a perfect world the bike wouldn't have a charger on it at all. The charger adds cost, weight and volume to the bike. If the charger is bolted to the wall instead of the bike then you can get a new bike and keep using the same charger or even have multiple bikes that use the same charger. So you buy a charger one time and then you can use it for all bikes....and cars. In this perfect world there would be enough DC public charging stations to be able to travel anywhere you would want to go without the need to carry a charger on the bike.
Until then....
With an unlimited R&D budget a charger could be designed to take the most advantage of the charging infrastructure that exists in 2016/2017. This would mean supporting DC fast charging up to 50kW and supporting AC fast charging up to 12kW. The charger would fit in the same volume as the current 1.3kW charger used by Zero. When plugged into a 120V outlet the charger would default to not exceed 15 amp draw but could be dialed up manually via an app to 30 amps. When plugged into a 240V the charger would default to 10 amps if it's a dumb outlet. On 240V dumb outlet the charger could be dialed up to 50 amps using the app. When plugged into a J1772 the charger would use all available power up to the max 12kW.
Of course, Zero doesn't have an unlimted R&D budget but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done. It seems like the charger should be next in line for an upgrade in 2018. Although....there really isn't anything stopping Zero from introducing something like an upgraded charger (minus the 50kW DC fast charging) mid season. The interface between the bike and the charger is pretty simple so a solution for a current model year bike should work with any 2013+ bike.
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The charger, especially if it becomes more powerful, needs to be relocated on top or at the back of the battery or someplace other than immediately under it, and get active cooling (a fan). If Zero gets a decent sized fairing option, two chargers could be strapped on each side on the front of the bike with much better cooling than on the bottom.
And I think a taller "gas tank" with bigger storage would be good to have. There is too much wasted space there today.
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The FX and FXS should have a small acceleration regression due to the taller gearing
But it has more torque so expect faster than 2016.
Just did the calcs (if I am correct) and there is 14% taller gearing with 11.5% more torque for the FX /FXS so yeah maybe you are correct, slower acceleration for 2017.
Maybe we will see some ppl put an 18 tooth pully on the front for 5:1 ration (2016 was 5.28)
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Its puzzling why Zero would reduce the torque at the back wheel on the FX/FXS (2016 = 501.6 NM, 2017 = 477 NM).
If you could put an 19 tooth pulley on the front you would get 502 NM at the back wheel and 18 would give 530.
The SR has 706.5.
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I run the chain kit on my 2016 FX and notice that the 12T front sprocket wears quickly. It makes more chain noise than I expected possibly due to the small radius. I don't see the numbers for the 2017 chain kit, but I doubt it is 10/45 as in half the belt tooth numbers like the 12/65 FX chain. They also raised the price of the chain kit a lot. I use an X-ring chain as I ride almost exclusively offroad.
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I notice that the 2017 specs no longer include acceleration. The higher torques should give a faster 0-60mph time, but none are given, I wonder why.
The FX and FXS should have a small acceleration regression due to the taller gearing. Though really this is just shifting the peak powerband closer to highway speeds .. and SHOULD significantly raise the top speed and sustained top speed. Will be very curious to see if this is the case or if not, if it is an artificial limit?
The Zero S, DS, SR should be quicker than their 2016 counterparts.
Acceleration is hugely dependent upon rider weight. 3.3 seconds was a great marketing claim in 2014. No independent instrumented review was able to back those numbers up, possibly because they were using 200 pound riders instead of 100 pound riders. Also - most manufacturers don't claim 0-60 times. Zero may have decided that ship has sailed.
It also gives them an opportunity to "reset"; if they choose to report an acceleration claim in the future, they don't risk an immediate comparison against the previous year.
Or it may have just been left off their press releases. Who knows.
Were there independent instrumented reviews? I saw a couple of reviews but in each case they were comparing apples to oranges. Zero gave all the reviewers the SR with the power tank option installed so that they could get more range, but then the reviewers somehow expected to get 3.3 second 0-60 times when that time was only for the SR WITHOUT the extra weight of the power tank.
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Did they get the 0-60 they expected for powertank models?
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Were there independent instrumented reviews? I saw a couple of reviews but in each case they were comparing apples to oranges. Zero gave all the reviewers the SR with the power tank option installed so that they could get more range, but then the reviewers somehow expected to get 3.3 second 0-60 times when that time was only for the SR WITHOUT the extra weight of the power tank.
Yes. MCN and Cycle World have published instrumented tests of the various Zero and Brammo bikes.
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Did they get the 0-60 they expected for powertank models?
Without looking it up, I seem to recall that Motorcycle Consumer News got their SR with PT to 60 mph in about 6.5 seconds.
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The charger, especially if it becomes more powerful, needs to be relocated on top or at the back of the battery or someplace other than immediately under it, and get active cooling (a fan). If Zero gets a decent sized fairing option, two chargers could be strapped on each side on the front of the bike with much better cooling than on the bottom.
And I think a taller "gas tank" with bigger storage would be good to have. There is too much wasted space there today.
+1
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I run the chain kit on my 2016 FX and notice that the 12T front sprocket wears quickly. It makes more chain noise than I expected possibly due to the small radius. I don't see the numbers for the 2017 chain kit, but I doubt it is 10/45 as in half the belt tooth numbers like the 12/65 FX chain. They also raised the price of the chain kit a lot. I use an X-ring chain as I ride almost exclusively offroad.
How difficult is it to replace the from sprocket on an FX (with the chain kit)?
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Without looking it up, I seem to recall that Motorcycle Consumer News got their SR with PT to 60 mph in about 6.5 seconds.
They reviewed the SR + PT. 0-60 was 4.58 seconds with a presumed 240 pound rider.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4362.0
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That's not a bad 0-60 time for a 240lb rider and a PT.
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I just compared the torque information of the 2017 DSR model on the US and Europe (Germany) site.
For US the site claims "157 Nm" and a peak power of "70 hp (52 kW) @ 3,500 rpm"
For Europe the site claims just "146 Nm" and a peak power of "69 PS (52 kW) @ 3.850 U/min"
For the DS model there is no difference between US and Europe models in the data. Both have 110 Nm torque. ???
Therefor i wonder if this is a mistake on the website or really another specification for the Europe models. I wonder what is the reason for this.
Any ideas?
Greetings
Scorpion
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Without looking it up, I seem to recall that Motorcycle Consumer News got their SR with PT to 60 mph in about 6.5 seconds.
They reviewed the SR + PT. 0-60 was 4.58 seconds with a presumed 240 pound rider.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4362.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4362.0)
I guess next time I comment I should "look it up". :-[
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How difficult is it to replace the from sprocket on an FX (with the chain kit)?
I have not done it, yet, but it isn't easy. Swing arm must be removed, bolt into motor shaft needs heat to remove, frame is in the way. Instructions for installing the chain kit are out there, replacing front sprocket is about the same.
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Middle 4 seconds would be OK, but 6.5 seconds for the SR with power tank would be slow. The Ninja 300 time is listed as 5.6 seconds so you expect the SR to be much faster than that. I'm wondering about the new S model at 313 lbs. That time may be pretty good too. That's the model I'm interested in.
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Without looking it up, I seem to recall that Motorcycle Consumer News got their SR with PT to 60 mph in about 6.5 seconds.
They reviewed the SR + PT. 0-60 was 4.58 seconds with a presumed 240 pound rider.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4362.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4362.0)
I guess next time I comment I should "look it up". :-[
Here let me google that for you ;)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=electric+motorcycle+forum+0-60 (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=electric+motorcycle+forum+0-60)
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How difficult is it to replace the from sprocket on an FX (with the chain kit)?
I have not done it, yet, but it isn't easy. Swing arm must be removed, bolt into motor shaft needs heat to remove, frame is in the way. Instructions for installing the chain kit are out there, replacing front sprocket is about the same.
Hmmmm sounds like a fare bit of work for something that wears fast!
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The 2017 Owners Manuals are posted now.
One thing I noticed on page 3.21 is a parking brake lever on the left handle controls. It's described conditionally, and I haven't noticed one in photos or one in person look around at the bike. Keep an eye out for this!
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Nice. Brian you get extra credit for reading a manual for a bike you don't even own. :)
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Nice. Brian you get extra credit for reading a manual for a bike you don't even own. :)
I have to admit that it took me a long time to really look at the FX manual, or manuals before 2013, but there's interesting stuff in there if you have a relaxed eye.
The 2017 Owners Manuals are posted now.
One thing I noticed on page 3.21 is a parking brake lever on the left handle controls. It's described conditionally, and I haven't noticed one in photos or one in person look around at the bike. Keep an eye out for this!
I misread the diagram! It's on the inside of the right handlebar and the lever swings outward to cover the mode switch, basically a nicety to keep you from trying to use the throttle while the lever is engaged.
Page 6.14 lists maintenance for the parking brake, so it's easy to figure out how it works:
The lever pulls some calipers against the rear brake disc using the cable. The maintenance is just to adjust cable tension like a clutch cable needs (probably worth a tiny bit of cable lubricant once a year as well). So, I think it avoids stress on the hydraulic system.
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I just checked and could find no evidence of the parking brake system in the official photos, so I'm guessing there's a store update in the works for 2017 and it's an accessory. I guess I figured out that the brake doesn't use the same calipers. In any case, I want this.
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Nice. Brian you get extra credit for reading a manual for a bike you don't even own. :)
I have to admit that it took me a long time to really look at the FX manual, or manuals before 2013, but there's interesting stuff in there if you have a relaxed eye.
The 2017 Owners Manuals are posted now.
One thing I noticed on page 3.21 is a parking brake lever on the left handle controls. It's described conditionally, and I haven't noticed one in photos or one in person look around at the bike. Keep an eye out for this!
I misread the diagram! It's on the inside of the right handlebar and the lever swings outward to cover the mode switch, basically a nicety to keep you from trying to use the throttle while the lever is engaged.
Page 6.14 lists maintenance for the parking brake, so it's easy to figure out how it works:
The lever pulls the rear brake calipers against the pad using the cable. The maintenance is just to adjust cable tension like a clutch cable needs (probably worth a tiny bit of cable lubricant once a year as well). So, I think it avoids stress on the hydraulic system.
Maybe it's like the Silverwing scooter I used to have. There was another rear caliper, controlled solely by the parking brake cable. The handle was down under the "dash" on the right hand side and there were a few times I forgot to release it. "Damn, how come this thing has no power! ... Doh!"
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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Maybe it's like the Silverwing scooter I used to have. There was another rear caliper, controlled solely by the parking brake cable. The handle was down under the "dash" on the right hand side and there were a few times I forgot to release it. "Damn, how come this thing has no power! ... Doh!"
Yes, I just corrected my post for this once I realized where the diagram was indicating on the disc. Good catch, and quite possibly Zero just sourced an existing model that matches what Honda has.
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It would've been better if they copied the parking brake concept from the BMW maxi-scooters. The parking brake is automatically engaged when the sidestand is deployed. Since the bike won't even run until you lift the sidestand there is no way you could ride off with the parking brake engaged.
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It would've been better if they copied the parking brake concept from the BMW maxi-scooters. The parking brake is automatically engaged when the sidestand is deployed. Since the bike won't even run until you lift the sidestand there is no way you could ride off with the parking brake engaged.
Sounds annoying if you're trying to roll the side stand to a specific place.
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Ok, so I also read through the manual for the DSR 2017. Here it seems to be obvious that there is a torque difference 146 vs. 157 between
the Europe versions and the "rest of the world" DSR bikes. Not sure what is the reason for this difference, but it sounds odd to me.
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Ok, so I also read through the manual for the DSR 2017. Here it seems to be obvious that there is a torque difference 146 vs. 157 between
the Europe versions and the "rest of the world" DSR bikes. Not sure what is the reason for this difference, but it sounds odd to me.
Yeah i've seen the 146nm on the german page too. I sent them a mail but never got an answer. Why would they reduce the nm for europe? Its the only thing that would push me towards an upgrade. Has anyone more informations for us europeans?
edit:
Seems for me that they did not change the power for eu, but that the reading of the power regarding the Regulation UNECE No. 85 https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/updates/R085r1e.pdf (https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/updates/R085r1e.pdf) measures it differently or over longer time?!
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The EU models aren't any different to the US models concerning the power mapping. The difference is a result of different regulations regarding power& torque measurement. I think kashography is right, the measurements are over a longer time. 157nm is the peak torque which applies only for a few seconds, I guess until the motor throttles down, especially when it gets hotter.
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I also hope that kashography is right with his assumption. But then Zero should clearly advertise the peak torque value as 157 Nm. Otherwise this could irritate potential buyers.
Why not giving both values, peak torque and nominal torque? Would be very clear from my perspective.
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I also hope that kashography is right with his assumption. But then Zero should clearly advertise the peak torque value as 157 Nm. Otherwise this could irritate potential buyers.
Why not giving both values, peak torque and nominal torque? Would be very clear from my perspective.
Due to the regulations they are not allowed to publish other values than those which we're measured according to the regulations. That's at least what I heard.
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I also hope that kashography is right with his assumption. But then Zero should clearly advertise the peak torque value as 157 Nm. Otherwise this could irritate potential buyers.
Why not giving both values, peak torque and nominal torque? Would be very clear from my perspective.
Due to the regulations they are not allowed to publish other values than those which we're measured according to the regulations. That's at least what I heard.
This is my understanding as well...EU doesn't allow publication of numbers that don't conform to the EU standards. This is also the reason for slight differences in range specs for EU vs rest of world.
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Regarding the slight differences in published torque & power numbers in US v. EU...
Q: Why are the torque and power specifications different between the USA and Europe?
A: While the vehicles are identical between regions and perform the same, there are now different test standards for torque and power in the USA and Europe. The SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) test determines “peak†or “max†torque and power, whereas the EU standard (UNECE Reg No 85) determines “net†numbers. The slight differences between the tests produce different results. Again, the actual performance of the vehicles is identical.
PS - Obligatory reminder that I am a Zero employee.
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Autoblog.com reviews the 2017 Zero model range:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/22/zero-motorcycles-2017-lineup-video/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/22/zero-motorcycles-2017-lineup-video/)
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Autoblog.com reviews the 2017 Zero model range:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/22/zero-motorcycles-2017-lineup-video/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/22/zero-motorcycles-2017-lineup-video/)
Not a review just an article saying the specs and zero's pomotional videos. Nothing different from Zero's web site.
I waiting for a proper review, riding the bikes etc. to see how much each bike has changed from 2016.
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Regarding the slight differences in published torque & power numbers in US v. EU...
Q: Why are the torque and power specifications different between the USA and Europe?
A: While the vehicles are identical between regions and perform the same, there are now different test standards for torque and power in the USA and Europe. The SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) test determines “peak†or “max†torque and power, whereas the EU standard (UNECE Reg No 85) determines “net†numbers. The slight differences between the tests produce different results. Again, the actual performance of the vehicles is identical.
PS - Obligatory reminder that I am a Zero employee.
thanks a lot for the clarification! It seems that the EU Norm measures over a period of 30s when i remember correctly