ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Kocho on March 12, 2016, 08:48:58 AM
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When I test rode the 2014 S and SR I mainly fit OK on them, except the foot brake pedal was way too high and uncomfortable to reach for me. The reason is I'm 6'4" with huge feet and long legs. This puts my knees way forward, my shins are angled forward a lot, and that creates a pretty acute angle between my shin and feet at my ankle when I have to use the brake - it requires a lot of flex and effort to lift my toes up and over the foot brake. In contrast, the foot brake on the FX felt great and where it should be - felt natural to step on it, because my legs were not as much bent in the knees and my shins were less angled forward compared to how I had to sit on the S/SR.
So my question is, are there easy/standard ways to modify the foot brake for a tall person to be comfortable using it? I'm thinking of somehow turning it clockwise (i.e., down) from its default position by maybe 30 degrees and/or lowering it relative to the foot pegs.
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The ground clearance for the pegs on the S and SR is pretty low already so I wouldn't recommend lowering the brake pedal. Many owners have successfully fitted LHRB as I've done and it gives you better useability and feel than a foot brake offers
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I would also suggest you to replace the spring -as I did- for a softer one (see photo)
I have never understood why Zero installed a hard -dirt type- spring on a road bike...
After that, surprisingly you will get better braking power ;D
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Good point on the clearance, plus I'm already used to having a LHRB on my Vectrix.
And good to know about the softer spring option.
I'll test ride the '16 models to see if I still feel the same. And check out the DS, which I did not have a chance to ride last time. Being tall (or short) is a challenge on situations where good fit makes a difference - my Vectrix is rather uncomfortable for me (crammed in several ways, unless I ride it from the hump between the front and the passenger seat, where it feels great!)
The ground clearance for the pegs on the S and SR is pretty low already so I wouldn't recommend lowering the brake pedal. Many owners have successfully fitted LHRB as I've done and it gives you better useability and feel than a foot brake offers
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I'm a short 5'6" rider and I think the rear brake pedal would be better lower also.
I held a flat piece of cardboard up to the bike lining up the tires to simulate ridiculous lean angle for the street.
It looks like my peg and my small foot would drag first and the brake could go down 1 inch. This assumes that you are not braking at max lean angle, which I don't recommend.
I would rather have a Left Hand Brake Lever (LHBL) and if anyone has any recommendations or links to the full mod, that would be great!
If you are really leaning that hard on a zero, you should adopt a "hanging off" body position to limit the lean angel of your bike.
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Anyone come up with a way to lower the rear brake pedal? I took it off today trying to figure it out but from what I can see the bolt is too long to allow for the change in angle. Only way I can think of is to cut the bolt (bad idea) or file out a section of the pedal's arm in which the bolt can recess.
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Anyone come up with a way to lower the rear brake pedal? I took it off today trying to figure it out but from what I can see the bolt is too long to allow for the change in angle. Only way I can think of is to cut the bolt (bad idea) or file out a section of the pedal's arm in which the bolt can recess.
So you loosened the lock nut to screw in the threaded shaft of the piston into the bracket, but it bottomed out so that you could not lower the brake lever?
I think you could lower it without any dragging it. IT looks like the pegs would drag first.
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I was able to get all three nuts on the shaft loose. The top one only seems to go up so far (it seemed to already be as high up on the thread as it could be when I got to it), and then it's just spinning, or the threaded shaft is spinning. I don't know much about this braking system; I hope I wasn't stripping anything or messing with positioning/alignment with all of the twisting I was doing. The second nut was the first one I tried to adjust, but even when I butt it up against the top nut (to raise the back of the pedal and lower the front), which is only a slight/moderate height adjustment, the bottom of the shaft blocks the pedal arm from either attaching to the bracket/cylinder on the shaft or lining up with the attachment point on the frame. I'm gonna try widening the lower hole on the pedal arm (that the spring hooks on) and see if I can get it to work by switching the function of two pedal arm attachment points.
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On my FX, I loosened the two master-cylinder bolts, pressed down on the brake pedal hard, then held it there while I retightened them. This lowered the pedal tip about 1/4" which helped a bit. I don't know if the SR MC mounting holes have the same amount of slop as the FX, but it's simple to try.
Ray
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I lowered my rear brake pedal by the following steps:
1. use masking tape to mark current height of brake pedal
2. refer to Lipo423's photo above and loosen lock nut, which is almost out of view in the photo
3. rotate threaded shaft so that pedal is at desired height
4. tighten lock nut
5. use large piece of cardboard pressed against the tires to simulate the road when the motorcycle is leaning to ensure the brake pedal does not drag before the peg.
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So, I went ahead and widened (with a 1/4 drill bit) the lower spring attachment hole (so I could connect the brake at that point) and was able to successfully re-attach the pedal in the position I wanted. I like this set up so much more; I can rest my foot on the frame without worrying about activating the brake, the brake is much easier to put pressure on/easier to find (not that you don't get used to where brakes are quickly anyway) and it doesn't seem like it's too low to where it would hit the ground in a sharp turn (unless maybe you are doing those crazy racing turns where the knee is on the ground) but I'll try the cardboard trick/test and post if it does hit the ground in any of my turns. I recommend that anyone who is dissatisfied with the brake pedal consider this simple mod; even if you would rather raise it, have it further out, or have it further forward (although you can do all of those to some extent it might not be enough for some) you should try this to see how you like it. I was going to replace the spring with a longer/softer one, but it doesn't even seem to need it, the brake pedal already bounces back into place just as well as if it had a spring on it.
To Killroy:
I could only lower it a very slight amount before the threaded shaft ran into the pedal arm, someone mentioned that you could get a bit more range by using force but I don't want to brake/stress anything if I don't have to and it probably wouldn't have been enough.
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(unless maybe you are doing those crazy racing turns where the knee is on the ground)
You might call it crazy, but the alternative to hanging off the bike is to make the bike lean even more.
You dont have to be racing, or even going very fast, to do it either... You just have to have the need to turn the bike that hard or fast... A car stopping in your path and suddenly requiring you to make a right hand turn comes to mind for me. stupid drivers pull out infront of you, then see you, and slam on their brakes... stopping in your path. lol.
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someone mentioned that you could get a bit more range by using force
Hopefully you're not referring to my post, which mentioned pushing down hard on the brake pedal by hand (wrench in the other hand ready to tighten the bolts, obviously). I wasn't suggesting trying to stress or 'brake' anything, just move the MC firmly into a new position that would give a little more foot room at the pedal tip, since you'd apparently used up all your conventional adjustment range already.
So now your actuator rod enters the master cylinder at an angle, rather than straight in as every MC master cylinder I've ever seen does it? I'd highly recommend NOT doing that.
Ray
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You might call it crazy, but the alternative to hanging off the bike is to make the bike lean even more.
Meh, I only call it crazy because I've never had to do it before and it looks almost as crazy (as in spectacular) as a sustained wheelie (although less crazy than standing on the bike). I've had foot pegs scrape the ground but that isn't (as far as I can conceptualize) anywhere near those angles; and that has only happened on very sharp turns; I wouldn't be going fast enough (or turning long enough) to feel comfortable shifting body position dramatically.
I really don't know, but I would think that changing your body position doesn't turn the bike faster/sharper unless it also leans the motorcycle. So it might make sense to be in that extreme position in order to get a more stable/controlled lean but it doesn't make sense, at least how I understand it right now, that you can lean the bike less and turn just as sharp or more sharply.
You dont have to be racing, or even going very fast, to do it either... You just have to have the need to turn the bike that hard or fast... A car stopping in your path and suddenly requiring you to make a right hand turn comes to mind for me.
Such a turn would take you off the road, almost perpendicular to the road, so you better hope you are at an intersection or there's a field or something. If I were to do it on these hilly roads I'd go off into the ravine or into the cliff. And if you are going slow enough you will just tip over, even going 10-20mph.
Hopefully you're not referring to my post, which mentioned pushing down hard on the brake pedal by hand (wrench in the other hand ready to tighten the bolts, obviously). I wasn't suggesting trying to stress or 'brake' anything, just move the MC firmly into a new position that would give a little more foot room at the pedal tip, since you'd apparently used up all your conventional adjustment range already.
I figured that's what you meant, but it seemed to me that I'd either be angling the rod in the other direction or just making it so that the brake is forced permanently into the activated position. There is really very little room for adjustment and I got the bike from the dealer with the pedal almost as low as it would go (because the end of the actuator rod blocks the pedal arm from going any higher).
So now your actuator rod enters the master cylinder at an angle, rather than straight in as every MC master cylinder I've ever seen does it? I'd highly recommend NOT doing that.
That's correct, but it doesn't seem to bend at all and the change in angle isn't drastic. It still activates the brake just the same; in fact it works beautifully so far, better than before, somehow it's easier to just stomp on the pedal. I figure even if the brake does fail, I have two more.
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Such a turn would take you off the road, almost perpendicular to the road, so you better hope you are at an intersection or there's a field or something. If I were to do it on these hilly roads I'd go off into the ravine or into the cliff. And if you are going slow enough you will just tip over, even going 10-20mph.
I would imagine if someone is pulling out infront of you, you're at an intersection.
That example was just personal experience. Car pulls out without seeing me. They see me when they're across my half of the road. Driver panics and slams brakes. I cannot stop completely in time, so I slow, let off the brake, and throttle into a hard right right.... onto the same street she just pulled out from.
Theres no need for having your knee down on the street... but knowing proper body position is important. If you're touching your peg but not moving on the bike, you're giving up precious traction that could save your life.
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They see me when they're across my half of the road. Driver panics and slams brakes.
SO typical! Just going on their way, completely oblivious, until they're in the worst possible place, THEN they stop.
This is a country full of Trump voters.
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They see me when they're across my half of the road. Driver panics and slams brakes.
SO typical! Just going on their way, completely oblivious, until they're in the worst possible place, THEN they stop.
This is a country full of Trump voters.
You shouldn't drag politics into this. While I have no doubts that the majority of the members of this forum are left leaning, It has nothing to do with the subject matter.
That said, the entire policy of the liberal-left has centered around the idea that their beliefs are smarter and disagreeing with them means you are stupid. People dont want others to think they're stupid, so they follow like lemmings.
Considering that Hillary is the alternative to Trump, I would just shut up about the subject altogether just from embarrassment.
All that said, once more.. politics don't belong here.
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Now, that's an interesting way to avoid a crash. I don't think I understand the mechanics of it though. Wouldn't making such a sharp turn require at least as much traction as stopping in a straight line, something you say there isn't enough distance to do before you crash?
Such a turn would take you off the road, almost perpendicular to the road, so you better hope you are at an intersection or there's a field or something. If I were to do it on these hilly roads I'd go off into the ravine or into the cliff. And if you are going slow enough you will just tip over, even going 10-20mph.
I would imagine if someone is pulling out infront of you, you're at an intersection.
That example was just personal experience. Car pulls out without seeing me. They see me when they're across my half of the road. Driver panics and slams brakes. I cannot stop completely in time, so I slow, let off the brake, and throttle into a hard right right.... onto the same street she just pulled out from.
Theres no need for having your knee down on the street... but knowing proper body position is important. If you're touching your peg but not moving on the bike, you're giving up precious traction that could save your life.
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Now, that's an interesting way to avoid a crash. I don't think I understand the mechanics of it though. Wouldn't making such a sharp turn require at least as much traction as stopping in a straight line, something you say there isn't enough distance to do before you crash?
Such a turn would take you off the road, almost perpendicular to the road, so you better hope you are at an intersection or there's a field or something. If I were to do it on these hilly roads I'd go off into the ravine or into the cliff. And if you are going slow enough you will just tip over, even going 10-20mph.
I would imagine if someone is pulling out infront of you, you're at an intersection.
That example was just personal experience. Car pulls out without seeing me. They see me when they're across my half of the road. Driver panics and slams brakes. I cannot stop completely in time, so I slow, let off the brake, and throttle into a hard right right.... onto the same street she just pulled out from.
Theres no need for having your knee down on the street... but knowing proper body position is important. If you're touching your peg but not moving on the bike, you're giving up precious traction that could save your life.
Traction and distance are two totally different things.
I could apply more brake and stoppie up to the vehicle and stop.. or I can greatly reduce my speed, then turn. I chose to turn as I didnt know if there was anyone directly behind me. I dont want to stop in the middle of the road and make a squishie sandwich.
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OK, that makes sense to me now. I thought you were saying there is no way for you to stop but at the same time there is a way to reduce your speed and turn. Looks like there is a way to stop, just not ideal under the circumstances.
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You shouldn't drag politics into this. ... the liberal-left has centered around the idea that their beliefs are smarter ... once more.. politics don't belong here.
Wow. The hypocrisy is amazing.
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Wow. The hypocrisy is amazing.
Mine was the original sin which provoked his response and I hereby apologize to both Mr Dude and the group. I need to not say things like that in this forum, whether I think they're true or not.
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I pointed out before that at least on my SR, I was able to lower the rear brake pedal without compromising clearance any more than the regular foot peg.
I tested it with "artificial lean" - cardboard.
YRMV
If you are dragging pegs on a S/SR, then you need to hang off the bike. There is less traction when you lean past the edge of the tire. I still have little 2mm chicken strips, I don't hang off and I have never dragged pegs.
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I would imagine if someone is pulling out infront of you, you're at an intersection.
Yeah, that would probably be the only time when such an extreme turn would be useful in everyday driving. But if that someone just stops in the road or pulls out from a driveway or other road that you can't turn into for one reason or another you'd be screwed. Better to try to fit between the cars/lanes or just slow down as much as possible and practice your superman style flying.
Theres no need for having your knee down on the street... but knowing proper body position is important. If you're touching your peg but not moving on the bike, you're giving up precious traction that could save your life.
Someone would have to explain this to me but I think you might have more leverage to easily pull out of a short sharp turn if you have your upper body upright or even in the other direction. Might not work well on sport style bikes given that they are slightly higher and easier to pull out of a turn anyway; I don't know that I've tried it.
This is a country full of Trump voters
We'll find out in November, but I doubt it.
You shouldn't drag politics into this. While I have no doubts that the majority of the members of this forum are left leaning, It has nothing to do with the subject matter.
That said, the entire policy of the liberal-left has centered around the idea that their beliefs are smarter and disagreeing with them means you are stupid. People dont want others to think they're stupid, so they follow like lemmings.
Considering that Hillary is the alternative to Trump, I would just shut up about the subject altogether just from embarrassment.
All that said, once more.. politics don't belong here.
No offense meant from the following, I'm just going to point this out because it's good fun. That is a completely hypocritical statement. You can't emphasize twice that we shouldn't talk politics and in the same breath talk politics. It would be one thing to refute his statement or counter it in equal measure but you can't bring in a whole new level of discussion and then cut it off to anyone else. There are many reasons as to why people think republicans are stupid, but the main legitimate one is that they have representatives like Louie Gohmert and Sara Palin and Michelle Balkman and Trey Goudy; plainly and depressingly unintelligent people. I would have said Trump fits into that same category but I'm not sure, he might be an extremely savvy con man who's just pretending to be a man child with the intellectual reasoning of a 3-yr old. Also keep in mind that just because someone is capable of recognizing Trump's rhetoric as childish that doesn't mean they support Shillary.
YRMV...I still have little 2mm chicken strips
YRMV? What's the acronym year/model? Also not sure what you mean by chicken strips.
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I've had foot pegs scrape the ground but that isn't (as far as I can conceptualize) anywhere near those angles; and that has only happened on very sharp turns; I wouldn't be going fast enough (or turning long enough) to feel comfortable shifting body position dramatically.
I really don't know, but I would think that changing your body position doesn't turn the bike faster/sharper unless it also leans the motorcycle. So it might make sense to be in that extreme position in order to get a more stable/controlled lean but it doesn't make sense, at least how I understand it right now, that you can lean the bike less and turn just as sharp or more sharply.
I need to set the record straight because it can save your life...
It might not seem logical to you (and a LOT of people) but the physics are real. It doesn't turn the bike faster it allows the bike to be going faster without leaning as much. It has to do with the gyroscopic affect from the wheels spinning.
If you keep your body upright and don't hang off your bike in a turn and you scrape pegs....taking the same turn, at the same speed but shifting weight to the inside you will not scrape pegs...seems weird but it's true!
Shifting your weight allows you to take a turn faster without leaning as much. If you go into a turn too fast you should be shifting your weight FIRST before leaning harder.
It's important because shifting your weight to keep the bike from leaning as far in the turn means more tire patch on the road.
Don't confuse properly shifting weight with douchebags that hang their knee down just trying to get it to touch the ground in a turn.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
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Considering that Hillary is the alternative to Trump, I would just shut up about the subject altogether just from embarrassment.
All that said, once more.. politics don't belong here.
What's a matta dude, don't like women who are smarter than you?
Oops, political statement. (Disclaimer-I am neither Republican nor Democrat)
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I need to set the record straight because it can save your life...
It might not seem logical to you (and a LOT of people) but the physics are real. It doesn't turn the bike faster it allows the bike to be going faster without leaning as much. It has to do with the gyroscopic affect from the wheels spinning.
Thanks for trying but I'm still not getting it. Why am I trying to go faster in a turn? Especially if I'm not also turning as (or more) quickly... I'll end up going off the road or at least into the other lane; if I'm not turning fast/sharply enough. As I understand it there are several gyroscopic forces that come into play, which are you referencing?
It's important because shifting your weight to keep the bike from leaning as far in the turn means more tire patch on the road.
That I can understand, and that also might be where the discrepancy between our two understandings lays. If you lean further than the bike the weight which would otherwise be spread down the tire as it has more contact with the road is focused on the furthest left point that is already touching the ground. That would significantly increase the friction/traction at that point/line around the tire. Perhaps the weight causes that section of the tire to further warp/flatten, which might ever so slightly cause you to ride further up on the tire without actually leaning the wheel more. But that would be a very slight effect, not worth taking into consideration at likely everyday speeds. If I'm taking a sharp turn at 20-30mph I'd much rather be able to straighten the bike quickly (especially since most of the sharp turns I know are followed by straight road or turns in the opposite direction) than take the turn faster or lean the bike a little less.
If you keep your body upright and don't hang off your bike in a turn and you scrape pegs....taking the same turn, at the same speed but shifting weight to the inside you will not scrape pegs...seems weird but it's true!
Shifting your weight allows you to take a turn faster without leaning as much. If you go into a turn too fast you should be shifting your weight FIRST before leaning harder.
That makes sense, but unless you can explain further I'm assuming that effect is just based on where the pressure is on the tire and that is only going to change your vector/angle very slightly when compared to leaning the bike. So yeah maybe you save something like 1 degree of lean but keep in mind that 45 degrees is a sharp turn and I'm not even sure our pegs hit at 45 degrees, it's somewhere around there; I’ve never scraped the pegs on this bike, only cruiser style motorcycles (not that I’ve ridden many) and bicycles. It makes much more sense just to slow down a little for regular riding. Obviously, professional racers would want to make the most of the effect (moving which part of the tire you ride on without leaning the wheel); since they are doing high speed turns for extended lengths with the goal of maximizing speed why not put your weight over the side of the vehicle. Not to mention it becomes somewhat of an athletic ability if you are switching from extreme right to extreme left turns.
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Let me ask the question a bit differently. Assume I am making a turn, I am upright, not shifting my weight to the inside of the turn. Still, that is not as fast/sharp, so my pegs will not scrape. However, the road is slippery just enough, say it is wet, so that the bike will slide from under me. Basically, I am taking the turn at a speed just a notch above the traction limit.
Now, assume I took the same turn in the same conditions, at the same speed, but this time I have shifted my weight inside the turn, so the bike is leaning less. Will I have more traction, potentially not sliding out?
Here is where I'm going with this. Motorcycle tires are designed so that they have good traction upright as well as when leaned. Some actually have more traction when leaned vs. when upright. Assuming I have plenty of clearance for my pegs, is there any advantage in shifting my weight to minimize the lean angle? Specifically for the Zero OEM tires in street riding conditions.
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I need to set the record straight because it can save your life...
It might not seem logical to you (and a LOT of people) but the physics are real. It doesn't turn the bike faster it allows the bike to be going faster without leaning as much. It has to do with the gyroscopic affect from the wheels spinning.
If you keep your body upright and don't hang off your bike in a turn and you scrape pegs....taking the same turn, at the same speed but shifting weight to the inside you will not scrape pegs...seems weird but it's true!
Shifting your weight allows you to take a turn faster without leaning as much. If you go into a turn too fast you should be shifting your weight FIRST before leaning harder.
It's important because shifting your weight to keep the bike from leaning as far in the turn means more tire patch on the road.
Don't confuse properly shifting weight with douchebags that hang their knee down just trying to get it to touch the ground in a turn.
BINGO. and that was all I was trying to get across.
The other half of that is traction. the more your bike leans over, the less physical area of rubber is on the road. You only need a postage stamp amount for racetrack speeds under ideal conditions, but the road is never ideal. There will be sand, drippings, paint, metal covers, etc. You dont WANT the bike leaned over that far.
So by leaning your weight out over the side properly, the bike stays more upright.
The upright bike has more traction AND more lean angle left to go.
so now you have less chance of the bike washing out from under you AND if you have to tighten your line up further, you can.
Let me ask the question a bit differently. Assume I am making a turn, I am upright, not shifting my weight to the inside of the turn. Still, that is not as fast/sharp, so my pegs will not scrape. However, the road is slippery just enough, say it is wet, so that the bike will slide from under me. Basically, I am taking the turn at a speed just a notch above the traction limit.
Now, assume I took the same turn in the same conditions, at the same speed, but this time I have shifted my weight inside the turn, so the bike is leaning less. Will I have more traction, potentially not sliding out?
Here is where I'm going with this. Motorcycle tires are designed so that they have good traction upright as well as when leaned. Some actually have more traction when leaned vs. when upright. Assuming I have plenty of clearance for my pegs, is there any advantage in shifting my weight to minimize the lean angle? Specifically for the Zero OEM tires in street riding conditions.
YES. Your initial assumption of traction when leaned is incorrect. The bike has more traction when upright slightly, compared to all the way over.. HOWEVER what is even more important is that your weight better positioned. Properly positioned not only is to the side, but also slightly forward. If you just went directly to the side, the rear tire would be overloaded compared to the front. If you "kiss the mirror" with your body, your weight moves forward. the front and rear tires are equally loaded, and the bike will do a nice controllable 2 wheel drift if you were still slightly exceeding the traction limit. That said, sliding is a very fine line that you do NOT want to be doing on the street.
This touches on the unintuitive nature of motorcycle physics.
Am I saying you should be hanging off like a monkey driving around town? No.
What I am saying though, is you should know how, because one day you're going to come around a turn you've done 1000 times, but theres dirt on the road. or a dog. or something. when you lean the bike slides, and your reaction needs to be unintuitive. You should throw your body down more and stand the bike up some. Its not natural. It feels even less natural if you ride bolt upright, compared to someone that normally rides a sportbike. But the physics remain he same.
if you continue to ride a bike down to the peg scraping at speed, while sitting upright on the bike, you may be able to get away with it... since "peg scraping" isnt very low on a stock bike, and its likely you're going slow. Just know that you are giving up a window of traction and limiting your options.
edit: I just googled real quick for a video. This may be more "racetrack" oriented, but just imagine your traction being limited due to the poor environment, instead of high speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ODL2iqVG9Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ODL2iqVG9Q)
incidentally, in the US atleast.. every sportbike comes with 3" long feeler extensions on the pegs to make them hit WAAAY early. I wonder if there is some law that says they have to touch by a specific lean angle. Does anyone know?
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as for the rest of the political stuff above.. eh, thats why I hate the bullshit.
this however isnt political:
What's a matta dude, don't like women who are smarter than you?
I love them. My wife is the smartest woman I ever met. Its one of the reasons I married her.
Shes also absolutely trustworthy, compassionate but tough, and has the kind of integrity to do the right thing that I view as an inspiration.
To imply that the gender of a candidate has anything to do with my opinion of them is an insult directly to me. I'll await your apology.
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as for the rest of the political stuff above.. eh, thats why I hate the bullshit.
this however isnt political:
What's a matta dude, don't like women who are smarter than you?
I love them. My wife is the smartest woman I ever met. Its one of the reasons I married her.
Shes also absolutely trustworthy, compassionate but tough, and has the kind of integrity to do the right thing that I view as an inspiration.
To imply that the gender of a candidate has anything to do with my opinion of them is an insult directly to me. I'll await your apology.
Plenty of people who are misogynistic in the workplace or public sphere love their wives and daughters. Just like plenty of racist people have friends of color.
You deserve no apology. Welcome to the internet where no one knows anything about you, and you can lie to claim anything you want.
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Let me ask the question a bit differently. Assume I am making a turn, I am upright, not shifting my weight to the inside of the turn. Still, that is not as fast/sharp, so my pegs will not scrape. However, the road is slippery just enough, say it is wet, so that the bike will slide from under me. Basically, I am taking the turn at a speed just a notch above the traction limit.
Now, assume I took the same turn in the same conditions, at the same speed, but this time I have shifted my weight inside the turn, so the bike is leaning less. Will I have more traction, potentially not sliding out?
Here is where I'm going with this. Motorcycle tires are designed so that they have good traction upright as well as when leaned. Some actually have more traction when leaned vs. when upright. Assuming I have plenty of clearance for my pegs, is there any advantage in shifting my weight to minimize the lean angle? Specifically for the Zero OEM tires in street riding conditions.
I am definitely into maximizing my body lean and keeping the bike upright as possible in turns. The reasoning comes from books/videos like twist of the wrist II: you want to maximize the time your bike is straight up and down, as when your bike is in this position, you have maximum braking and acceleration ability. You cannot brake as much with the bike leaned over as you can with your bike upright.
Think this is a racer technique that doesn't apply to street-speed turns? I think it is a basic street safety technique. Anytime you are riding around a turn and you suddenly come to a stopped deer, stopped car, fallen tree, left turning car, etc you will minimize your stopping distance by having your bike upright and your body leaned over. In other words, the person sitting upright and having the bike leaned over has to bring their bike to the upright position before applying maximum braking. It may only take an extra second, but one second at 40 mph is 58 feet. Half a second delay is 28 feet. Even riding at 20mph and giving it only a half second advantage gives you 14 feet of additional stopping distance. Does 14 feet matter when you're about to run into a solid object?
I have a friend who thinks anyone who leans off is a "poser". I'm just trying to maximize safety, as I ride through many blind turns on my daily commute, and just in the past year I have had stopped cars and gravel and squirrels around blind turns, all handled with no drama. Also, riding this way now makes me think the entire bike is more stable--I can adjust my line in turns easier to avoid gravel and potholes if I'm down lower and have the bike more upright. I can literally weave the bike to the inside and outside edges of the road while in a turn with little effort, I don't think that is as easy if you're straight up and down and leaning the bike.
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Another example: would you rather hit a patch of gravel in the middle of a turn with the bike leaned over, or the bike upright? I can tell you from experience, it does make a difference.
Also note that I am talking about leaning your upper body into a turn, not sliding your butt around in the seat. You can get plenty of body lean without moving your butt, just think of putting the weight on the inside of the turn.
Also, just the idea that you'd do this to drag knee... it's actually the opposite. I'm sort of mid-pack in intermediate track day groups and I can pace with guys that drag knee but I have never done it. Why can they drag knee and I can't? It's actually because they lean the bike over and get it more sideways to get their knee down. They also slide their lower body down while leaning their upper body towards the bike. So in other words, they are using bad technique to drag knee. The point is that I am able to go as fast as them but also have the bike more upright in turns, and they will have to unlearn their bad positioning if they want to go faster. You're actually trying to maximize the upright positioning of the bike. In the same manner, dragging pegs on the street is not something to be proud of, it could be an indication that you need to lean off more (or just that you're on a bike with very little peg clearance).
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I'm going to chime in on this and give some very bad advice that no one should follow. First off, the bike turns from either turning the front wheel or by leaning over. Shifting your body weight is just a way to encourage the bike to lean. (You can also butt-steer, but I use that as just a way to fine tune the turn.) The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike. I don't like to do that. I had a lot of fun and control mountain biking by tossing the bike back and forth underneath me while I stayed mostly on top, pressing moderately on the inside handle bar and hard on the outside pedal. (I didn't add weight to the bike, water and tools were on my back, and my tires were smooth on top and aggressive on the sides.) I like to ride my SR the same way. Staying on top, I feel like I can get the bike back up for aggressive braking when needed by pushing hard on the outside peg. To get the bike to lean, I get low on the plastic so I can extend my inner arm and point my knee out to give the bike room to lean while counterbalancing with the outside peg.
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Another example: would you rather hit a patch of gravel in the middle of a turn with the bike leaned over, or the bike upright? I can tell you from experience, it does make a difference.
Also note that I am talking about leaning your upper body into a turn, not sliding your butt around in the seat. You can get plenty of body lean without moving your butt, just think of putting the weight on the inside of the turn.
Also, just the idea that you'd do this to drag knee... it's actually the opposite. I'm sort of mid-pack in intermediate track day groups and I can pace with guys that drag knee but I have never done it. Why can they drag knee and I can't? It's actually because they lean the bike over and get it more sideways to get their knee down. They also slide their lower body down while leaning their upper body towards the bike. So in other words, they are using bad technique to drag knee. The point is that I am able to go as fast as them but also have the bike more upright in turns, and they will have to unlearn their bad positioning if they want to go faster. You're actually trying to maximize the upright positioning of the bike. In the same manner, dragging pegs on the street is not something to be proud of, it could be an indication that you need to lean off more (or just that you're on a bike with very little peg clearance).
bingo.. but that last little bit scares is why most cruisers scare the crap out of me.. if its the peg, fine, they fold. but touching a hardpart makes the bike lever up, unloads the tires, and down you go.
Making one ironic truth... the less performance oriented your bike is, the more important body position becomes in an emergency situation.
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First off, the bike turns from either turning the front wheel or by leaning over.
Leaning over is not a major factor in turning the bike. You can't turn a bike around a corner without steering input. You in fact prove that leaning does not cause the bike to turn since you are going through turns while staying upright (riding crossed-up).
Shifting your body weight is just a way to encourage the bike to lean.
It's exactly opposite. Shifting your weight to the inside is the way you prevent your bike from leaning. The MotoGP and elite racers are not leaning their bikes down to turn. They are just moving so fast that they need to lean over that far. They are trying to keep their bikes upright to keep their tires on the ground, which is why any racer who tries to ride crossed-up as you do will never reach the speeds needed to be competitive. If they had their bodies above their bikes, they'd scrap hard parts and lift their tires off the ground.
How long have you been riding motorcycles? Is the zero your first motorcycle?
There are situations where you may get more control riding crossed-up, but that is just confusing the issue. It's like telling a beginner to brake in the middle of corners. Yes, you can do it, but it's pretty well-accepted that it is generally bad technique that often leads to accidents. Likewise, leaning into turns with your upper body to keep your bike more upright is considered better technique for the reasons I go into above.
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Shifting your body weight is just a way to encourage the bike to lean. (You can also butt-steer, but I use that as just a way to fine tune the turn.) The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike. I don't like to do that.
This is not exactly true. The bike turns because of the sum of the forces acting on its motion. The spinning wheel wants to go straight and stand up. Shifting the weight distribution of the bike/rider changes the sum of those forces and causes the bike to turn. Leaning the bike is one way of changing the weight distribution. Shifting rider weight is another. Shifting rider weight allows you achieve the desired change in weight distribution while using less bike lean which means your tire has more contact with the road and you have more margin to add bike lean.
On the street I don't move my butt around much. I mostly shift my upper body weight and I try to do it in the direction I want the bike to go...slightly forward and to the desired direction of turn. I use the same mental image for counter steer. I push the bar end in the direction I want the bike to go...again... slightly forward and to the desired direction of turn. As a result counter steer and counter weight are working together in the turn.
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I would take a look to this animated picture at www.leanometer.com/en/comcept.html. It is pretty clear the effect of the rider to the system...
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I would take a look to this animated picture at www.leanometer.com/en/comcept.html (http://www.leanometer.com/en/comcept.html). It is pretty clear the effect of the rider to the system...
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Cool site but your link doesn't work...concept, not comcept...lol
Here is a working link...check the 'lean angle and cornering force' tab...move your mouse over the picture and you see the difference rider position makes.
http://leanometer.com/en/concept.html (http://leanometer.com/en/concept.html)
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I would take a look to this animated picture at www.leanometer.com/en/comcept.html (http://www.leanometer.com/en/comcept.html). It is pretty clear the effect of the rider to the system...
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Cool site but your link doesn't work...concept, not comcept...lol
Here is a working link...check the 'lean angle and cornering force' tab...move your mouse over the picture and you see the difference rider position makes.
http://leanometer.com/en/concept.html (http://leanometer.com/en/concept.html)
thanks for the correction.
Giacomo
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
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The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike.
actually, they get there by countersteering with good upper body strength. You can get there with your butt on the seat and your legs on the tank... the catch being.. you would be going much slower.
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I'm not saying that you can't go faster by getting your butt low. I don't like to do it because I find I can toss the bike back and forth faster if I'm on top enough to put weight on the outside peg, like a skier. Racers obviously don't do this because their feet aren't even on the peg sometimes. Maybe my body can't move my butt fast enough to get the bike upright again even with less lean angle to start with. And maybe groups would drop me because I'm riding too slow because I have the bike leaned over too far and need more time for road hazards.
I'm confused by the talk of changes in the size of the contact patch. I see this discussed in a lot of places, but I'm not sure it's all correct. The contact patch is determined by the pressure in the tires, the weight on the tires, and compliant or stiff tire construction. If the side walls are sufficiently compliant, the tire patch changes from shifting weight fore and aft and by aerodynamic forces. Also, in a turn with sufficient banking you should be able to weigh the bike down with speed. I could see how shifting body weight side to side could change the shape of the contact patch, and thus affect direction, but not so much the size of patch.
Which brings me back to tire lean. Maybe this example is oversimplified but we've all been shown the styrofoam cup turning because of its shape. When you get a bike tire on its side it can change direction. If the bike geometry allows it, and you're going fast enough to not fall over, you don't even have to turn the front tire in the direction of the turn. This is easy to demonstrate with a roadie style bicycle. You can grab the bike by the stem and change direction just by leaning the bike over.
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The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike.
actually, they get there by countersteering with good upper body strength. You can get there with your butt on the seat and your legs on the tank... the catch being.. you would be going much slower.
I'll have to take your word for that since I don't know any racers and have never been in a motorcycle race. They don't seem that strong in the upper body compared to athletes in some other sports though, and it isn't hard for me to countersteer.
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The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike.
actually, they get there by countersteering with good upper body strength. You can get there with your butt on the seat and your legs on the tank... the catch being.. you would be going much slower.
I'll have to take your word for that since I don't know any racers and have never been in a motorcycle race. They don't seem that strong in the upper body compared to athletes in some other sports though, and it isn't hard for me to countersteer.
that actually should say "good old fashioned upper body strength"... but since it was brought up.. for their size they do have strong shoulders. those guys are tougher than they look.
counter-steering shouldnt be hard, especially at street legal speeds on a modern motorcycle.
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I'm confused by the talk of changes in the size of the contact patch. I see this discussed in a lot of places, but I'm not sure it's all correct. The contact patch is determined by the pressure in the tires, the weight on the tires, and compliant or stiff tire construction. If the side walls are sufficiently compliant, the tire patch changes from shifting weight fore and aft and by aerodynamic forces. Also, in a turn with sufficient banking you should be able to weigh the bike down with speed. I could see how shifting body weight side to side could change the shape of the contact patch, and thus affect direction, but not so much the size of patch.
Contact patch size isn't maximum when vertical or at max lean angle...but there is a sweet spot based on lean angle somewhere between vertical and max lean angle. The exact location of the sweet spot will vary depending on the way the tire is designed as well as tire wear.
In the picture at this link the sweet spot is at about 40deg.
http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325 (http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325)
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The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike.
actually, they get there by countersteering with good upper body strength. You can get there with your butt on the seat and your legs on the tank... the catch being.. you would be going much slower.
I'll have to take your word for that since I don't know any racers and have never been in a motorcycle race. They don't seem that strong in the upper body compared to athletes in some other sports though, and it isn't hard for me to countersteer.
that actually should say "good old fashioned upper body strength"... but since it was brought up.. for their size they do have strong shoulders. those guys are tougher than they look.
counter-steering shouldnt be hard, especially at street legal speeds on a modern motorcycle.
Maybe that's why I don't ride like Pedrosa. My legs are still very strong but my shoulders and elbows have taken too many hits.
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In other words, the person sitting upright and having the bike leaned over has to bring their bike to the upright position before applying maximum braking. It may only take an extra second, but one second at 40 mph is 58 feet
Humm... But it is easier and faster to pull/push the handlebars (force on the handlebars is the main turning force) out of a turn if you have more leverage, and you have more leverage if you are pulling/pushing from the direction you want to turn to. Don't get me wrong, professional riders can shift weight/body position in a fraction of a second; so it's no big deal to them it's a practiced athletic maneuver. But to the average lay person it's probably much easier to pull out of a relatively slow/sharp turn if you aren't leaned past the bike. The statement/assertion you made doesn't stand up to logic; there's no physical reason (in this universe or any I know of =P) as to why it would be easier to get out of a turn if you leaned further into it. The bike will be leaned less to begin with but you still have to pull yourself to the center and exert more effort to turn the other direction. So the time it takes you to exert the extra effort and change your body position will be more than to pull/push the bike a little more from a position in which it is easier to do so.
I can literally weave the bike to the inside and outside edges of the road while in a turn with little effort, I don't think that is as easy if you're straight up and down and leaning the bike.
Right, because you aren't switching to the opposite direction. You are just modulating the sharpness of your turn and it's easier to do that from a position further within that turn; you have more leverage if you want to turn more sharply and you don't have to move very much to turn a little less sharply.
Also, just the idea that you'd do this to drag knee... it's actually the opposite. I'm sort of mid-pack in intermediate track day groups and I can pace with guys that drag knee but I have never done it. Why can they drag knee and I can't? It's actually because they lean the bike over and get it more sideways to get their knee down. They also slide their lower body down while leaning their upper body towards the bike. So in other words, they are using bad technique to drag knee. The point is that I am able to go as fast as them but also have the bike more upright in turns
It's funny that this whole discussion started because I called such a turn (knee on the ground) crazy (although I meant extreme), and while I was wrong to think that leaning off the bike doesn't turn it faster (because I wasn't thinking of tire surface/warping), it turns out my intuition about that was correct, at least most of the time; even if you position properly you will eventually get your knee on the ground when considering a turn that is increasingly sharp.
And as I just insinuated; I'm still of the mind that the 1-4 degree benefit and added traction are insignificant/inconsequential (compared to being able to pull out of a turn quickly) for almost all conceivable everyday riding situations.
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And as I just insinuated; I'm still of the mind that the 1-4 degree benefit and added traction are insignificant/inconsequential (compared to being able to pull out of a turn quickly) for almost all conceivable everyday riding situations.
and I disagree with that statement entirely.
hit one unseen slick oil or sand spot mid corner... and you'll wash out.
hit the same with proper body position and you wont... or atleast be able to recover.
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But it is easier and faster to pull/push the handlebars (force on the handlebars is the main turning force) out of a turn if you have more leverage
So there must be some basic misunderstanding here. You can apply harder braking when your bike (not your body!) is more upright.
You do not need to get your body upright to get your bike upright to engage maximum braking. In other words, the person whose body is leaned over the most and whose bike is most upright minimizes the bike/body adjustment they have to make before hard braking. So maximum body lean = minimum bike lean = faster braking response. In other words, you can brake more with your body is leaned off the bike. Not sure how many more ways I can express this...
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hit one unseen slick oil or sand spot mid corner... and you'll wash out.
hit the same with proper body position and you wont... or atleast be able to recover.
You're insinuating that the bike's lean angle is always, or likely, going to be the deciding factor when it comes to whether or not someone loses control. I'm sorry to say that we are not on the racetrack, you don't need the best possible control at all times. If there's sand/gravel in the road I straighten the bike as I deem appropriate; that usually also involves attempting to avoid the sand/gravel and or braking (after straightened). I am already going slow (relatively) around blind corners (unless I had view of the road from further back and know it's clear and/or no incoming traffic) anyway because I'm not an idiot (at least not usually). A little bit of gravel (or even a lot if it's a narrow enough patch) or slick road isn't going to cause me to wipe out. What does concern me, as far as potential for wiping out, is wet road lines. But it only rains here 30 days a year; How often am I in the rain and I can't just go slower to make sure I stay in my lane? So let's just guess that I'll be riding in a hurry on a rainy day about once a year and on that day I'll take heed of your advice. Thank you.
So there must be some basic misunderstanding here. You can apply harder braking when your bike (not your body!) is more upright.
You do not need to get your body upright to get your bike upright to engage maximum braking. In other words, the person whose body is leaned over the most and whose bike is most upright minimizes the bike/body adjustment they have to make before hard braking. So maximum body lean = minimum bike lean = faster braking response. In other words, you can brake more with your body is leaned off the bike. Not sure how many more ways I can express this..
Right, but it's easier/faster to get your bike upright if you have more leverage, and you have more leverage if your body is centered (or at least not hanging off the bike...) or on the outside of the turn (which I don't recommend, I'm just saying you would have more leverage from that position). And actually mrwilsn just provided a link to a diagram indicating that you might have more patch at a 40 degree lean. http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325 (http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325)
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You seem to be suggesting that leaning your upper body to the inside of a turn is some sort of radical elite racer technique. It is not. It is what is taught to beginning riders and it applies to all range of abilities and conditions. If you don't want to ride that way, that's okay with me.
I do understand your perception that it is easier to throw the bike around when you're on top of it versus with your upper body leaned over. Skilled dirt riders can do all sorts of things crossed-up and stunt riders use it as well. But they are skilled enough to handle the bike sliding around. *That* is a fairly advanced technique. If you don't want to slide, or want to have maximum control while in a slide, keep the bike as upright as possible. You do that by leaning your body into the turn.
I think this is a good discussion because it is such a basic point, and I know people who mock riders who lean their bodies into turns as if these riders are pretending to be racers. Ride however you want, it's just been my experience that it works for me, it makes sense, and it is consistent with everything I have read. It's easy to ride around and tell yourself you will never be riding at "those speeds" but due to natural progression of skill, one day you will be without even trying. It's like buying good tires and good brake pads--you're trying to minimize the possibility of going down or avoiding an accident, even if 99.9% of the time you don't need that margin. Same thing with body lean; at lower speeds I can easily choose not to do it, but I think I maximize my safety margin by doing it.
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You're insinuating that the bike's lean angle is always, or likely, going to be the deciding factor when it comes to whether or not someone loses control.
No. I am saying the weight distribution matters more. sitting upright will likely overload the rear tire and keep the front light. leaning forward keeps it more balanced. leaning to the side can keep the bike more upright. You dont have to lean off like a racer, but you do have to move on the bike.
I'm sorry to say that we are not on the racetrack, you don't need the best possible control at all times.
To say you dont need the best possible control.. is moronic, irresponsible, and the equlivent of saying "meh... fuck it all. I will probably be ok"
Its the type of attitude that ends with the person going "there was nothing I could do" after the accident happens.
If there's sand/gravel in the road I straighten the bike as I deem appropriate; that usually also involves attempting to avoid the sand/gravel and or braking (after straightened). I am already going slow (relatively) around blind corners (unless I had view of the road from further back and know it's clear and/or no incoming traffic) anyway because I'm not an idiot (at least not usually). A little bit of gravel (or even a lot if it's a narrow enough patch) or slick road isn't going to cause me to wipe out. What does concern me, as far as potential for wiping out, is wet road lines. But it only rains here 30 days a year; How often am I in the rain and I can't just go slower to make sure I stay in my lane? So let's just guess that I'll be riding in a hurry on a rainy day about once a year and on that day I'll take heed of your advice. Thank you.
so your basic takeway is that "you'll always see it coming"... and therefore have no need of knowing any more motorcycle skills. Everything will be solved by going slower and seeing it coming.
Right, but it's easier/faster to get your bike upright if you have more leverage, and you have more leverage if your body is centered (or at least not hanging off the bike...) or on the outside of the turn (which I don't recommend, I'm just saying you would have more leverage from that position). And actually mrwilsn just provided a link to a diagram indicating that you might have more patch at a 40 degree lean. http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325 (http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325)
You dont need massive leverage to move the bike... if you know basic countersteering. If you still think leaning off the bike has ANYTHING to do with the bike cornering, you are mistaken.
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You seem to be suggesting that leaning your upper body to the inside of a turn is some sort of radical elite racer technique.
Not at all, go back and re-read this thread from the beginning; This conversation started with me saying that having your knee to the ground is for crazy (as in extreme) high speed turns (which should only be done on the track). And the furthest my position has gone from that is to say that even taking your body off the bike is unnecessary for every day riding. Both of those statements are unarguably true and yet people keep claiming that they are necessary components of riding. Only one situation (in every day riding) has been presented (partly by me) in which it makes sense (and is at all likely to be necessary) to lean way over the side; in a moderate/fast turn when the ground is wet/slick or there is a lot of gravel. And even that situation assumes a blind corner (or lack of attention to the road) or that the rider wasn't smart enough to slow down ahead of time.
I do understand your perception that it is easier to throw the bike around when you're on top of it versus with your upper body leaned over.
Again, it's not going to be much of a difference if you are just leaned over a little, the real difference is if you are physically off the side of the bike; it's going to be much harder (as in take more physical effort) to come out of that turn than if you are centered. Again, it seems to me that this is an inarguable point... For some reason leaning over a little is being conflated with leaning over a lot (off the bike).
it makes sense, and it is consistent with everything I have read. It's easy to ride around and tell yourself you will never be riding at "those speeds"... It's like buying good tires and good brake pads--you're trying to minimize the possibility of going down or avoiding an accident, even if 99.9% of the time you don't need that margin. Same thing with body lean; at lower speeds I can easily choose not to do it, but I think I maximize my safety margin by doing it.
I agree with all of that. Just keep in mind that while changing body position (in all sorts of ways) is important/necessary to control over a bike, when talking about every day riding leaning off the bike is *potentially* beneficial. Potentially beneficial is a long way off from necessary or even useful. Thanks for keeping this polite.
To say you dont need the best possible control.. is moronic, irresponsible, and the equlivent of saying "meh... fuck it all. I will probably be ok"
Its the type of attitude that ends with the person going "there was nothing I could do" after the accident happens.
Well, you forgot to add that it is *true*, the rest is just your opinion. Granted, I do agree with some of that opinion; in that there's no reason to be reckless and you should at least consider whether or not something is making you more or less safe. But safety isn't everything and there is such a thing as "safe enough". If you spend your whole life worrying about being safe you have, in my opinion, just wasted a lot of time (especially if it's about things that aren't at all likely to hurt you to begin with, not that a motorcycle accident is on that list).
so your basic takeway is that "you'll always see it coming"... and therefore have no need of knowing any more motorcycle skills. Everything will be solved by going slower and seeing it coming.
Well, I don't remember saying that, but that's largely correct. I do not need to know any more motorcycle skills, I am comfortable with my control of the vehicle. I do not plan to do any racing, extreme turns, tricks, stunts, etc... I mostly drive like a car and when I do actually use the motorcycle specific capabilities it's to avoid an accident (just yesterday someone was trying to merge lanes right into me so I just moved over in the lane, checked traffic, and merged to the left), pass cars at red lights, make sharp low speed turns, and occasionally lane split (if I think it's safe to do so). Those are all relatively easy to do (except for maybe the lane splitting) once you have a little experience.
You dont need massive leverage to move the bike... if you know basic countersteering. If you still think leaning off the bike has ANYTHING to do with the bike cornering, you are mistaken.
That sir, I believe, meets the definition of a straw-man argument. My position was never that you need massive leverage to move the bike, but that: the more leverage you have the easier/faster you can do so. Which seems to me to be an unarguable point. I couldn't make sense of that last sentence.
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You seem to be suggesting that leaning your upper body to the inside of a turn is some sort of radical elite racer technique. It is not. It is what is taught to beginning riders and it applies to all range of abilities and conditions. ...
Huh. I've been riding for more than 30 years. I guess I need a refresher.
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Huh. I've been riding for more than 30 years. I guess I need a refresher.
From the current California Motorcycle Safety Training manual for first-time beginners (I quote):
LEANING IN - HIGH SPEED
When you see pictures or videos of motorcycle racers hanging off their bikes with their knees on the ground, that is an example of the "leaning in" technique taken to the extreme. Why do they do it? It provides increased ground clearance and traction so they can go faster (they are racing, after all).
Even riders who aren't racing can learn a thing or two from the concept. For street riding there is not a good reason to go to the extreme that racers go to. However, leaning slightly and not increasing speed increases traction and ground clearance in case there are any unexpected hazards. The leaning in technique is recommended if you find yourself dragging footpegs or floorboards in a corner or otherwise running out of ground clearance. Leaning your upper body slightly to the inside can give you the extra ground clearance and traction you need to get through the turn. <end of quote>
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^ Yes, basic motorcycle training grew to encompass body lean, counter-steering, and other techniques. By the time I started in an MSF class in 2006, counter-steering was practiced and basic body lean was described to try later, and I took them for granted.
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LEANING IN - HIGH SPEED
I think the word most relevant to this discussion is "high". How often do you make high speed turns in everyday riding? Almost never. I've probably only seen 4-5 on ramps and 2-3 large roads with enough turn and length/visibility to where I can safely execute a sharp turn (more than 80 degree direction change over a relatively short distance) at over 40mph in all of SD county. None of which are on my commutes and I only encounter one with any regularity. So yeah, I guess on that one off/on ramp I should actually be leaning off the bike a little. Although come to think of it, that turn might not actually be as sharp as it feels at 55-60 mph and it probably just barely changes your vector by 80 degrees.
^ Yes, basic motorcycle training grew to encompass body lean, counter-steering, and other techniques. By the time I started in an MSF class in 2006, counter-steering was practiced and basic body lean was described to try later, and I took them for granted.
It almost seems a little silly to have counter steering in any class that's teaching safety/skills rather than physics/physical mechanics because counter-steering is something we've all been doing automatically since childhood; while riding our bicycles.
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Well, there it is on page 84:
"LEANING IN
"When you see pictures or videos of motorcycle racers hanging off their bikes with their knees on the ground, that is an example of the “leaning in†technique taken to the extreme. Why do they do it? It provides increased ground clearance and traction so they can go faster (they are racing, after all).
"Even riders who aren’t racing can learn a thing or two from the concept. The only time the leaning in technique is recommended is if you find yourself dragging footpegs or floorboards in a corner or otherwise running out of ground clearance. Leaning your upper body slightly to the inside can give you the extra ground clearance and traction you need to get through the turn. (Next time enter that turn slower!)"
I don't understand why the instructors didn't have us practice this on the motorcycle range.
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^ Yes, basic motorcycle training grew to encompass body lean, counter-steering, and other techniques. By the time I started in an MSF class in 2006, counter-steering was practiced and basic body lean was described to try later, and I took them for granted.
It almost seems a little silly to have counter steering in any class that's teaching safety/skills rather than physics/physical mechanics because counter-steering is something we've all been doing automatically since childhood; while riding our bicycles.
I'm always floored when some people think that counter-steering doesn't exist or must not work. It's certainly true that it isn't very noticeable below 20mph, so that's one explanation.
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^ Yes, basic motorcycle training grew to encompass body lean, counter-steering, and other techniques. By the time I started in an MSF class in 2006, counter-steering was practiced and basic body lean was described to try later, and I took them for granted.
It almost seems a little silly to have counter steering in any class that's teaching safety/skills rather than physics/physical mechanics because counter-steering is something we've all been doing automatically since childhood; while riding our bicycles.
I'm always floored when some people think that counter-steering doesn't exist or must not work. It's certainly true that it isn't very noticeable below 20mph, so that's one explanation.
The people that dont know how countersteering works.. dont know how to ride. period.
They're also the ones that cant swerve out of the way...
strangely, they're also most likely to not have full gear on either...
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I just want to post a safety update in regard to my foot pedal modification: My foot pedal became stiff, harder to activate, and the brake was just not very strong. So I switched the actuator rod back to it's original position and removed the stainless steel spacer at the forward foot petal connection point to lower the foot pedal. The only other option would be to file down the point on the pedal arm which contacts/blocks the bottom of the actuator rod.
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Old thread, I know, but I'm looking for some quick information
That bold in the picture on the first post, how is that removed? I mean, is there a nut behind it? Or is it just simply screwed in there with the threads embeded in the frame?
Sorry for the stupid question. I'm still banged up from the accident and can't really get a good look at it yet beyond just feeling around with my fingers.
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Old thread, I know, but I'm looking for some quick information
That bold in the picture on the first post, how is that removed? I mean, is there a nut behind it? Or is it just simply screwed in there with the threads embeded in the frame?
Sorry for the stupid question. I'm still banged up from the accident and can't really get a good look at it yet beyond just feeling around with my fingers.
Popnut is my guess. https://youtu.be/xAU8x7Q-0YE
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Old thread, I know, but I'm looking for some quick information
That bold in the picture on the first post, how is that removed? I mean, is there a nut behind it? Or is it just simply screwed in there with the threads embeded in the frame?
Sorry for the stupid question. I'm still banged up from the accident and can't really get a good look at it yet beyond just feeling around with my fingers.
Popnut is my guess. https://youtu.be/xAU8x7Q-0YE
what the helllllll. Never seen one of these before. Interesting. Guess I'll twist and see if the bolt just comes out. (in about 3 months of course when I'm healed.) Thanks for the info!
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Might want to put a dab of blue Locktite (tool removal) on the threads upon reinstalling the bolt.