ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Alan Stewart on February 20, 2016, 11:05:34 PM
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A review of the Kawasaki, but the latter part compares it with the Lightning.
"In the inevitable coming fight to the death, the combustion engine is going to go down."
http://www.gizmag.com/kawasaki-h2-review-supercharged-road-test/41847/ (http://www.gizmag.com/kawasaki-h2-review-supercharged-road-test/41847/)
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Here's the reviewer's prior review of the Lightning.
http://youtu.be/o3DiAecsh_0 (http://youtu.be/o3DiAecsh_0)
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Watched the video and at 6:10 mark I Laughed Out Loud.
In the Kawasaki dealership - what is under his jacket? Zero T-Shirt. (not the same shirt as the opening sequence)
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That is a very entertaining review. Now if Lightning would just deliver a few of those Lightnings to customers. ???
For Gizmag's next review they should try out this BMW R69RS. ;D
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It's an interesting observation, which has been made before, that an ICE bike with its tranny can out-accelerate an EV without gears at low speeds, because the EV doesn't receive the benefit of torque multiplication of the lower gears. Of course, the ICE REQUIRES those low gears to be at all functional, and we consider it an advantage that the EV, because of its extremely wide torque band, does pretty well without them.
But there's no reason you can't put a gearbox on an EV. Brammo/Victory does it, with limited success on the street where it may not be so valuable. But the supermoto guys bemoan the fact that they can't lift the front wheel, which would easily be corrected by lower gearing, and the racers are always searching for one more millimeter of performance, no matter how much you give them.
I think in the great majority of cases it makes sense to do without the added cost, weight, parasitic losses, maintenance and overall inconvenience of a transmission, but perhaps the added low-speed acceleration makes sense in some extreme performance cases. What do the rest of you guys think?
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I think the answer for high-performance electric motorcycles that must provide the best possible performance across their entire speed range is a continuously variable transmission (CVT). If someone could come up with a CVT design that works well enough in a format and size compatible with motorcycles low gearing for getting off the line and high gearing for top speed could both be possible without the rider having to shift between gears.
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With something as powerful as the lightning, you could consider a dual clutch transmission and drive shaft like the one on the VFR 1200. It's probably not worth the extra weight and drop in power at the back wheel though. I think Lightning got it right for most road riders.
I've never been a fan of CVT transmissions, even though they do make a lot of sense for many applications. Aren't they inefficient too?
Perhaps a really simple traditional transmission with two gear ratios and no clutch, just a quick shifter? First gear might be good for 90mph to allow a little over twice the torque at the back wheel for the twisties. Second gear could still be used all the time and for high speed cruising.
I still prefer no gears though. How's about changing the sprockets for a 150mph top speed? Add variable traction control. Also have different ride modes that progressively give tighter throttle control. That could be adjusted with a paddle switch. At low speeds the rider could have a loose setting which would give a more gradual application of torque and less chance of wheel spin.
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It's an interesting observation, which has been made before, that an ICE bike with its tranny can out-accelerate an EV without gears at low speeds, because the EV doesn't receive the benefit of torque multiplication of the lower gears. Of course, the ICE REQUIRES those low gears to be at all functional, and we consider it an advantage that the EV, because of its extremely wide torque band, does pretty well without them.
But there's no reason you can't put a gearbox on an EV. Brammo/Victory does it, with limited success on the street where it may not be so valuable. But the supermoto guys bemoan the fact that they can't lift the front wheel, which would easily be corrected by lower gearing, and the racers are always searching for one more millimeter of performance, no matter how much you give them.
I think in the great majority of cases it makes sense to do without the added cost, weight, parasitic losses, maintenance and overall inconvenience of a transmission, but perhaps the added low-speed acceleration makes sense in some extreme performance cases. What do the rest of you guys think?
isnt lightning the fastest production bike out right now.....
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"Production". Do we know how many have been delivered? I know of 1.
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James Parker has apparently designed (or is in the process of designing) a 2 or 3 speed transmission for an electric. The Lightning may be fastest (and it is pretty powerful) but if it had a transmission, it would be even quicker, as in - greater acceleration. The limit is traction, after this the extra gears are wasted.
I drag raced an electric bike last year and made a comparison between my bike and the fastest one at the 1/8-th mile track we run at. He is just about 1 second quicker than me: .15 of that is in the "big end" of the track, i.e. from 330' to 660'. Most of the difference is in the first part of the track. Why? He uses a slider clutch with auto-shift and has already burned through 3 or 4 gears on the front-half of the track while my bike was still accelerating. From half-track on, we were delivering about the same power. In the first half of the track, the average power I was putting down was less.
An obvious upgrade then (without adding battery or controller - this on a series DC motor) is to use a transmission. But how do you find a transmission that can take the torque and is compatible with an electric motor? I considered B&J products but ultimately am adding battery and a bigger controller. I could have gotten the benefit of quicker acceleration with the transmission, but overall power would be unchanged, or even slightly reduced due to tranny losses. I chose to spend my money differently.
For street riding? A transmission is a waste of money. For racing, it can definitely have its place.
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Interesting thoughts. Brammo actually went the other way than this philosophy. They put a transmission on their street bike and took it off for their race bike.
Eric Bostrom wrote an article which highlighted his experience that there were great gains in racing without a gearbox.
http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/06/electric-vs-gas/
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For sure these benefits are real. For example, I notice when riding on the street (different bike - converted Hayabusa) that the lack of engine vibration makes it easier to feel the road surface. I also have a gas 'Busa and the difference is noticeable.
I suspect the drag racing example is a special case; a transmission is one way to improve acceleration. Of course, I'm hoping that spending my money/weight on battery and controller will make up for it. Just in case, I think I have room to fit a 2-speed next year... ;)
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Why would you ever want a transmission if you dont need one like the lightning.... If you can lift wheel at 100 plus....
Transmissions are a thing of the past!
Production is production you can hate on it ben; but they still have the fastest bike out.
I might be wrong but i also believe its the fastest and the quickest...... Gotta give credit where its due.....
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Alot of you have confused "fastest" with "quickest".
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Alot of you have confused "fastest" with "quickest".
It holds the 218mph in la
And isnt it also under 3sec 0-60
EDIT: Claimed sub 2 sec 0-60... Id love to see that in person cuz god damn!
So um yes, (going to find the 0-60 now) it would be both fastest and quickest production bike even if they only moved one ;D
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Alot of you have confused "fastest" with "quickest".
It holds the 218mph in la
And isnt it also under 3sec 0-60
EDIT: Claimed sub 2 sec 0-60... Id love to see that in person cuz god damn!
So um yes, (going to find the 0-60 now) it would be both fastest and quickest production bike even if they only moved one ;D
The pre-production version that set that speed was not stock. It had a modified fairing and a different gearing, meaning it was set up for top speed, not acceleration. It even specifies this on the spec page of their website in fine print. Their claimed acceleration and top speed should be from THE SAME GEAR, not from two different setups.
Even when tuned for top speed, the Lightening is probably still very quick, but if we're going to compare it to the H2, these details matter.
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It's common practice to regear for the event in question, everyone does it. I don't think it detracts from the bike's performance claims at all. But there's no question that acceleration with race gearing will be a lot different than it is for street riding. The top-speed fairing would not be street legal though.
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It might be common practice, but we're discussing if a one gear setup can match gas superbikes in both acceleration and top speed. That the gearing was different makes Lightening's claimed figures insignificant.
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Would you consider the Lightning quicker if it was time to 215 mph? ;)