ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on February 02, 2016, 01:56:32 AM
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I picked my bike up on 20th Jan and it didn't make it to the end of the month without a show stopper. Damn! I knew there would be problems but I was hoping for a few months grace at least. 11 days and 500 miles isn't great.
Plugging the bike in gets it to initiate but as soon as the contactor clicks on it shits itself, the bike shuts down and the contractor clicks off. What's also bad is that it creates a short circuit somehow which trips the circuit in the house. Gladys (my wife's name for the bike) wasn't popular last night when half the house shut down along with the heating and hot water...
Fortunately I traced the problem back to the bike and normal service was resumed.
I've done a video to demonstrate the problem. I hope some of you don't mind watching it and if you've got any suggestions, or have seen this problem before, please let me know.
https://youtu.be/p1J0TPfMCZM
In the meantime, I'll have a go at pulling the logs via the app. I've let Streetbike know but they can't pick the bike up until Friday.
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Did you had a very wet / muddy ride? Sounds like the BMS went into protection. Check the plug also with another tool.
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I found this thread:
Circuit breaker popping with onboard chargers
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5182
I just hope I get one of the new 'redesigned' chargers when it gets replaced. What a bag of shite! They should have recalled these.
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I've emailed Streetbike. Their van isn't available until Friday, so it's the train for me for the next three days. Back to an ICE bike for a while no doubt. I just hope I get something half decent as a courtesy. I also hope it's a quick turnaround. I didn't even get a proper honeymoon! [emoji22]
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Sorry to hear that Mostlybonkers,I'm disappointed,I'm sure its even more disappointing for you.
I'm sure I've read on this forum,somebody elses thread about the onboard charger on this batch of DSP's ,I assumed Streetbike were in the know on this,and would be making sure the chargers were upto the job !
If and when I get mine,I'll need to know I'm not going to have the same problem, like you ,Streetbike are not just down the road for me, I can't be back and forth,or the bike won't end up paying for itself.
Alarm Bells ringing :-(
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I'll put money on it being the bloody charger; this is 100% symptomatic of my own and numerous others experience.
When the on board charger works it's great. When it fails is seems to present a dead short when plugged in, which trips breakers.
The simplest test/confirmation is to use an accessory charger. If it will charge fine and not pop circuits its a strong indication that its the charger. FWIW, I tell every owner and potential owner to invest in an accessory charger as a) a backup for this situation so you can stay mobile b) faster charging in home when needed, c) faster charging on the road when touring by taking it with you.
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I picked my bike up on 20th Jan and it didn't make it to the end of the month without a show stopper. Damn! I knew there would be problems but I was hoping for a few months grace at least. 11 days and 500 miles isn't great.
Plugging the bike in gets it to initiate but as soon as the contactor clicks on it shits itself, the bike shuts down and the contractor clicks off. What's also bad is that it creates a short circuit somehow which trips the circuit in the house. Gladys (my wife's name for the bike) wasn't popular last night when half the house shut down along with the heating and hot water...
Fortunately I traced the problem back to the bike and normal service was resumed.
I've done a video to demonstrate the problem. I hope some of you don't mind watching it and if you've got any suggestions, or have seen this problem before, please let me know.
https://youtu.be/p1J0TPfMCZM
In the meantime, I'll have a go at pulling the logs via the app. I've let Streetbike know but they can't pick the bike up until Friday.
Defective charger. It also happened to me after a few hundred miles. 100% same symptoms. The defective ones blow out after just little use.
Get it replaced, Zero has replacement units in Holland.
Zero got a few defective chargers, which unfortunately they had no way to identify (serial number, serial break or similar), as they broke randomly...so they decided "let the user find out"
Mine was replaced last year for (as it was stated in thew box) an "improved version"
I wish we would go back to DeltaQ quality :'( but they do not make chargers with suitable size/power for our MY2013+ bikes...
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Thanks gents.
Fortunately Streetbike are quite happy to send Andy out in their van to anywhere in the country. They also like to make sure that bikers don't go without a ride, so a courtesy bike shouldn't be a problem. I'm just a bit gutted.
It's good to know Zero have stock in Holland. Fingers crossed they haven't run out.
I would love to own an Elcon or Diginow fast charger but I believe all auxiliary chargers rely on the on-board charger to be plugged in and working.
I hope that someone decides it's worthwhile to replace the units in the other DSP bikes at the same time. It's a safe bet that they will have chargers from the same batch. At least it sounds like they've resolved the problem and I can expect the replacement to work reliably.
We heard that Zero are working on a 3kW on-board charger for the European market. If you're listening Zero, I'm happy to test one of these for you! [emoji4]
I wonder why they didn't fit one in the first place? Our sockets can supply up to 3.12 kW and many kettles are now 3kW. It would make a big difference. Cost, I imagine.
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Had exactly the same problem. At lot of 2015 bikes also suffer from it.
You need a new onboard charger. Mine was replaced under warranty in 35 hours.
In Holland, they have stock..
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Thanks gents.
Fortunately Streetbike are quite happy to send Andy out in their van to anywhere in the country. They also like to make sure that bikers don't go without a ride, so a courtesy bike shouldn't be a problem. I'm just a bit gutted.
Lucky you! :)
It's good to know Zero have stock in Holland. Fingers crossed they haven't run out.
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99% they do...they know the problem (it also happened to me with a 2015 DS demo bike, and as stated earlier in my new SR 2014)
I would love to own an Elcon or Diginow fast charger but I believe all auxiliary chargers rely on the on-board charger to be plugged in and working.
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Yep. No onboard, no charging...they should change that, as you rely in one charger all the time...
I hope that someone decides it's worthwhile to replace the units in the other DSP bikes at the same time. It's a safe bet that they will have chargers from the same batch. At least it sounds like they've resolved the problem and I can expect the replacement to work reliably.
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Agreed, but do not expect that to happen...
We heard that Zero are working on a 3kW on-board charger for the European market. If you're listening Zero, I'm happy to test one of these for you! [emoji4]
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Me too ;D
I wonder why they didn't fit one in the first place? Our sockets can supply up to 3.12 kW and many kettles are now 3kW. It would make a big difference. Cost, I imagine.
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Both, cost and trying to get to 100% of the public...sometimes old domestic outlets cannot cop up with such current
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Thanks buutvrij and Lipo. Here's a quick update:
Andy is picking my DSP up tomorrow morning and giving me a Suzuki 650 Gladisis as a courtesy bike. I'm looking forward to seeing what that's like.
Streetbike are keen to stamp on any reliability issues. Their attitude is that Zeros are commuter bikes for the most part, so reliability is a top priority. Also, as electric bikes are so new and there are plenty of sceptics, it's critical that any issues are resolved quickly.
I have suggested that it would be good to replace the chargers in the other DSP bikes to mitigate any issues for other customers and I think Streetbike share that view. It'll be down to Zero as to how it gets handled; whether they feel it's worth coughing up now or whether they want to see if the other bikes experience the same problem when they hit the road.
I wonder what the overall failure rate of those chargers is? I must have seen maybe four or five people post and say they've had this problem. That's just from those that are active on this forum.
Watch this space if you're interested. Hopefully it'll be good news for everyone. Apart from me that is, who had to get the sodding train into work again today! I mustn't moan... [emoji6]
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It happened to me 2 months ago, after some weeks of ownership.
My dealer, Motoport Amsterdam, told me that Zero will not replace the 'bad' chargers up front.
Only after failure...
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Thanks buutvrij, good to know. It'll be interesting to see if Zero change their attitude in this scenario. Of the five DSP bikes, I think one other has been sold. If that one fails soon also, it will be difficult for Zero to justify not replacing the others. Zero should have an overall failure rate for the chargers. I'm sure that will inform their decision. I also imagine that if the chargers are going to fail, they are more likely to do so within the first 50 charge cycles or so. That seems to be the way with electronics. If it doesn't fail within the first few weeks of use, then there's a much better chance they'll last the life of the bike, I guess.
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Thought I'd chip in with my experience; looks like my 2015 has suffered the dreaded charger failure, not just once, but twice. The replacement charger didn't even manage a single cycle before blowing again.
Streetbike have been their usual fantastic selves, and I'm starting to feel sorry for Andy the van driver having to take a scenic tour of suffolk this often. You'd hope that Zero would at least ensure the replacement parts are defect free, but it seems that might not be the case.
Does the 2016 suffer from this?
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Oh dear... Thanks for letting us know and I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble with a '15 bike. It isn't great that this issue wasn't stamped on during the 2014 model year either. Third time lucky for you, I hope!
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I don't have a Zero, but on my Vectrix I've blown through 2 chargers and just about everyone else I know with a Vectrix has blown the charger at least once. Vectrix has been through at least 8 or so revisions of their chargers (2 generations of them, completely different from each other). I suppose it is not easy to make a reliable charger on a tight budget... On my latest charger I usually run it on a about half its maximum power in hopes to extend its life. That means something like 6 hours of charging from empty (I got about a 9KW battery in my bike), but that's fine for me, I do it overnight usually.
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Yes guys, it's about time Honda's getting started going EV....
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Poor reliability killed the UK car industry. Come to think of it, it also did for our motorcycle industry too. Zero have already had a few customers walk away due to recurrent issues. I know we're early adopters but I don't see why we should suffer for it, especially when they've had plenty of time to sort this particular issue out.
I feel an email to Zero brewing. Has anyone else contacted them directly on this?
I can't help but think that water has it's part to play too. The charger seems very exposed slung at the bottom of the bike.
It'll be such a shame if Honda come into the market and all the Zero customers immediately jump ship in the hope of better reliability. If you're listening Zero, please learn from history so it does keep on repeating itself!
I feel like Steve McQueen in the Great Escape riding around on the Gladius! It's like a bike from a different era after my last three. Still enjoyable though, it has two wheels after all!
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I cannot agree more with the comments...
As I mentioned earlier in my case a 2015 demo bike blowed the charger...and then my new SR2014...
It looks like it is a kind of lottery/random...which is not nice...my replaced charger seems to work fine now, I'm just crossing my fingers as I'm in the number of cycles it usually blows up :-\
My professional experience is mainly in the equipment industry where there are also a lot of electronics control systems involved.
When performing competitors benchmarking, guess what, the Japanese units had either no failures, or very little on the electronic controls (these machines run also with hydraulics pumps, etc...).
Sevcom controllers did also performed pretty well ;)
Let's hope they have found the right supplier in the last units
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Thanks Lipo, very interesting. I'm sorry you've had the same trouble too.
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It looks like it is a kind of lottery/random...which is not nice...my replaced charger seems to work fine now, I'm just crossing my fingers as I'm in the number of cycles it usually blows up :-\
How many charge cycles is that?
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It is around 8-10 charging cycles (in my experience). From what I have heard in mostly of the cases it blows up in early use
It would be good to know more cases, so all the users pay attention to minimize riding/logistics potential issues
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Stunthamster got his bike back on Thursday. Hopefully no news is good news on that front.
I've learnt that the replacement chargers are a revision six model. All other models have been classed as obsolete and only revision six is available on the parts ordering system. We don't know if stunthamster got an older model as his first replacement.
Unfortunately there's no news about whether the units in unsold bikes will be replaced before sale. Streetbike said they'd check the revision number on those bikes though. I think the conversation with Zero will continue. We know that Streetbike would like to be proactive and replace the chargers before sale, so it's down to Zero.
Mine was fixed in less than a week by the way. I get the bike back on Wednesday. I'd go and pick it up myself if it wasn't for having a busy weekend with my kids. It would also depend on Justin being around so I could stop by his for a quick charge too, of course.
In the meantime, the Gladius has been good fun to ride around on, so you could just look forward to that experience a few days after taking delivery of your new Zero. [emoji4]
I don't mean that as a snidy remark either, for me it was a reminder why people like their manual transmissions after I've been riding without a clutch for the best part of a year. I'm looking forward to getting Gladys back though.
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Tom, you are always most welcome to stop by, just let me know when.
Also if I'm not in, the plugs on the side of the house will be switched on, and you are welcome to slow charge from them.
Also, try chatting to these people.
http://www.evbitz.uk/EVBitz.uk/Welcome.html (http://www.evbitz.uk/EVBitz.uk/Welcome.html)
They are the ones who supplied the Type2 adapter I use for public charging, and the short run public charging cable.
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Thanks Justin, much appreciated. I'm sorry I didn't make it on pickup day. Getting a lift was a bit more practical on that occasion.
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Well, bit of an update on my side; had my bike picked up on Thursday, and it's definitely a charger fault. Street bike are talking it through with Zero to ensure that the part they fitted was the latest generation charger (Which ostensibly should be more fault tolerant than the generation that shipped with the bike). Fingers crossed they should be able to replace it relatively soon as my clients are starting to get a bit peeved at my lack of appearance on site lately.
Interestingly, the fact that the bike identifies itself as a 2013 model in the Zero app has been classified as an App bug by Zero support. To me it's a worrying bug, it either means that the ID that the bike sends has changed since I purchased it, or... well, that's the only thing I can think of since I've replaced my phone, so it's not an app data fault.
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Don't worry, my App shows my bike as a 2013 SR as well.
The app was last updated in september 2014...
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Just had it confirmed - charger failure, and it's definitely the latest gen charger. New one being shipped over, and the dead one going back to Zero for study. Fingers crossed that's the end of my charging woes...
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Apologies stunthamster, I thought they had already replaced your second charger and Thursday was the drop-off.
I hope you don't mind me asking: What do you do for a living and how do you manage to use the bike to visit clients? I love it when people manage to mesh motorcycling with their jobs, even if it's just commuting.
Hasn't Streetbike given you a courtesy bike by the way?
It's very disappointing to hear the revision six chargers are also unreliable. Whilst trying to stay positive about all of this, I would hope that you've just been very unlucky. If the manufacturer had tested the unit more thoroughly it may well have failed before shipping.
It took Streetbike just under a week to turn my bike around. Hopefully they've finished with yours now. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Andy is planning to drop your bike off after mine tomorrow. I'm expecting to see him late morning. You can get to most places in Suffolk in under 90 minutes from here.
Justin: have you checked the model revision you've got in your bike? Possibly the same that stunthamster got in his bike originally?
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you stunthamster. It sounds like you deserve a break from breakdowns!
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The charger in my December 2013 build 2014 S continues to work perfectly. But every since I have been reading about these failures, I no longer keep it plugged in all of the time. Now I pull the plug after the display reads 100% and there is no balancing going on. I don't know if chargers can "wear out", but I don't plan to take a chance and besides my battery pack seems unaffected by not being plugged in for a few days between rides.
What I don't get is what is going on with these failures? Zero seemed to have had a pretty reliable charger in their 2014 models (at least I can't recall any complaints during that year after the 2014 models were introduced). Now something has slipped. ??? Were they trying to cut costs, go for a low-bidder and change manufacturers? I have always been one of these guys that says that is something is working well, don't mess with it. ;)
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I'd love to know the exact nature of the issue and where the weakness is. Mine charged the bike to 100% before failing. It actually failed about 18-20 hours after the full charge was reached. I know that because that's when it tripped the circuit in the house.
The short circuit is also an unusual failure mode. I would expect there to be an internal fuse of some sort that would blow. It might trip a circuit the first time it failed but after that the blown fuse would make it appear to just be a dead unit, which in effect it is at that stage.
I wonder how easy it is to check the revision number. I'll start a new topic as it might give us a better idea of how big the problem is.
Richard, I think it's probably a good strategy to unplug when fully charged. Cell balancing probably doesn't need doing very often.
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After I noticed that you get a spark on the meanwells (2013) if you plug in the bike to a live socket, I've always made sure I plug my bike into a socket with the socket switched off, then turn it on at the socket (this also stops arching between the cord and the bike's inlet socket)
Also, my bike charges off a dedicated spur from the consumer unit, and nothing else is allowed on that spur while the bike is charging.
(This one was recommended to me by a couple of EV car people)
So my basic charge routine.
Ensure power is off at wall
Plug in cable to wall.
Plug in cable to bike
Turn on power at wall.
I also rarely, if ever, leave the bike charging overnight.
Obviously I've only done a few charge cycles on my new SR to know if this will help, but it worked for my S (Most of the above routine was adopted to avoid electrical arching at the bike's connector, not to protect the charger though)
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I hope you don't mind me asking: What do you do for a living and how do you manage to use the bike to visit clients? I love it when people manage to mesh motorcycling with their jobs, even if it's just commuting.
Hasn't Streetbike given you a courtesy bike by the way?
I'm an IT consultant and writer, so I'm lucky enough that most of my work I can do from home; I do like to pop my head in the offices of the clients I have though to ensure they remember who I am. I generally only take a contract if it has bike biking, I've just added the additional caveat now that they have to also have somewhere I can charge said bike ;-)
They haven't offered one and I haven't asked; I don't need it, and I prefer not to have to look after other peoples kit if I can avoid it.
Still, fingers crossed I get it back this week!
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Thanks Justin. Unfortunately my power socket in the garden doesn't have a switch on it. I plug the kettle lead in first so that any arcing happens at the wall. I always thought electrical circuits had capacitors and suchlike to dampen these types of spike. I also assumed the arcing looks worse than it actually is. I follow the same procedure as you when I'm at work though. Every little helps! [emoji4]
Thanks for sating my curiosity stunthamster.
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Capacitors, when they are "empty" can draw a lot of current very quickly when plugged-in. In fact, I bet some large capacitors somewhere is what is causing the arching. The arching is the least of your worries in such cases. It is the large current that flows after you plug-in that can damage under-specified electronics components that are in series with the capacitors. You need an in-rush current limiter to avoid that. Good electronic devices have that. I have a "manual" in-rush current limiter at home, for the rare occasion I disconnect my electric scooter's battery for maintenance - when it is reconnected it may damage the motor controller (not the charger). An incandescent light bulb in series between the battery and controller does the trick as it limits the current that flows through it - it lights-up for a second, then quickly dims down. At that point the capacitors in the motor controller are charged and can keep that charge for some time, so when the battery is connected there is no additional current, no sparks, no damage.
I'm sure something like that can be rigged-up to see what the Zeros' chargers are doing. My charger on the scooter does not start blasting at 15A the second it is plugged-in. It starts at milliamps and gradually ramps-up from there to whatever max current I have programmed in it. It does spark if I unplug it mid-charge at full power. But that is just a spark, not an increase in current like I described above, so no danger to electronic components. Does the Zero start drawing full Amps as soon as it is plugged-in? Does it have some beefy capacitors in the charger that get empty while the bike is unplugged and when plugged they draw way over the rated amps for a split second, potentially causing other in-series components to fail? I'd use an in-rush limiter to test that theory - the light should dim down after it first lights-up, provided the charger does not start blasting fill power immediately...
Now, don't you all go and electrocute yourselves trying it! Oobflyer probably knows exactly what I am talking about and likely still has his bulb-based inrush current limiter from his Vectrix. He can try it for us :)
I always thought electrical circuits had capacitors and suchlike to dampen these types of spike.
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Never spent much time looking, but the Zero charger does start off charging slowly and after a second or two ramps up the amperage, from what little I can tell.
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Never spent much time looking, but the Zero charger does start off charging slowly and after a second or two ramps up the amperage, from what little I can tell.
My 2014 bike's charger does the same thing. It takes a few minutes to get up to full speed after being plugged in. And when I ran my battery down to 0% it really ran slowly (I think around 6-800 watts) until the pack got up to about 20%, then it started charging at 1200 watts. That was why it took 15 hours to fully recharge the pack from empty. Since then I rarely run my pack much below 50% and when first plugged in the on-board charger starts charging at around 650 watts and then moves up to 1200 watts after a minute or two.
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+1
My 2013 starts off at about 2.8 amps and after a few seconds works up to 10 amps.
I have a Kill-A-Watt meter that was recommended by Harlan. It works well shows quit a bit of info and is a good tool for basic diagnostics and with 2013 you get bars not a %. I reset my trip meter, ride, and when it's done charging the meter shows your total kWh so you can see how much power you used for different riding styles and speeds. It resets when you unplug it. Also a high quality power strip with an On/Off switch fixes your spark issue. I also looked at some programmable timer outlets but haven't went that route yet.
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I've got my bike on a block heater timer rated for 15amps, to optimize TOU rates, at work and on the road it's j1772 charging
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I'd love to know the exact nature of the issue and where the weakness is. Mine charged the bike to 100% before failing. It actually failed about 18-20 hours after the full charge was reached. I know that because that's when it tripped the circuit in the house.
The short circuit is also an unusual failure mode. I would expect there to be an internal fuse of some sort that would blow. It might trip a circuit the first time it failed but after that the blown fuse would make it appear to just be a dead unit, which in effect it is at that stage.
I wonder how easy it is to check the revision number. I'll start a new topic as it might give us a better idea of how big the problem is.
Richard, I think it's probably a good strategy to unplug when fully charged. Cell balancing probably doesn't need doing very often.
Tom,
The issue goes on the design, and the chosen components (but I'm not discovering anything to you with such statement)
These kind chargers are not under the "new technology umbrella", so we should understand/accept a level of failure as we do with our bikes, this is old fashioned technology.
IMO, If they are in the 6th Gen and the chargers still blow up, they should consider replacing their low-cost/quality supplier for a reliable one, and remove another potential issue in their Zero reliability list.
If you account the units they sell and the number of faults it is a pretty big number, this is unacceptable.
Ask to the forum members the number of DeltaQ faulty chargers replaced and you will get my point...
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+1 Lipo. In fact, I doubt if any of the bike's components come under the new technology umbrella. Even the battery. The cell chemistry has been well understood for many years and I'm sure people have been making battery management systems as complex or more so for a long time.
Is this all down to cost? An industrial quality specialist charger of the same specification may have cost thousands. Zero probably approached a few manufacturers of consumer level products and asked them to quote on the manufacture to their custom specifications and expected sales. No doubt shortcuts were taken in the design and cheap components used to keep costs down and win the bid.
Perhaps all those revisions are just sticking plasters on a fundamentally flawed design. It might just need to go back to the drawing board. I wouldn't be surprised if water ingress is part of the problem too.
I imagine finding a new charger supplier is quite a challenge, especially when only a couple of years into the current arrangements. There may be a five year contract.
Anyhow, I'm just thinking aloud. As a customer I shouldn't have to think about all of this. As an enthusiast, I can't help it!
The good news is that I seem to have had a successful first charge. Here's to the next 2,000!
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Many years ago we specified a "Class V" reinforced concrete drainage pipe for installation under a highway. When I went to inspect the pipe that was bought to the job site, the pipe was stamped "Class III" (the typical RCP that is available anywhere). So I told the contractor to get rid of the pipe and replace it with the correct Class V pipe. When I returned to the job site to check on the materials again, there was the exact same pipe, with the "Class III" crossed off and "Class V" written over it. Nice try, I guess and like they say, "it doesn't hurt to give it a try". Maybe the inspector will be asleep or a new one will show up. But it didn't work in this case. The pipe went back to the supplier and the proper type was finally installed. :)
Sometimes quality control stickers are more important than actual quality control. ;)
And speaking of quality control and stickers, a Royal Enfield owner recently reported on the U.S. web site that a green "OK" sticker came out with the other debris (such as metal shavings and pieces of a cloth glove) during his first oil change. ::)
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Nice stories Richard, thanks. Technology moves on, human behavior not so much.
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So, this should hopefully reassure some folks.
Looks like I'm the ONLY failure that Zero have seen with the latest gen charger in the 2015 series; I had a long conversation with the guys at streetbike today filling them in with any details I have to pass back to Zero who are apparently quite curious what caused the fault.
Looks like I won the wrong end of the lottery when it comes to chargers, but hopefully means that most riders should have a fairly problem free replacement.
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Great news, sir! I hope you get your bike back soon and have many thousands of trouble free miles ahead.