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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on October 10, 2015, 02:01:21 PM
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On my first ever test ride of a Zero, a 2013 S, we went on a route that included some dual carriageway at high speed. The little red light came on almost immediately and I experienced the power being reduced to protect the motor. Even in my gadget fever riddled state of mind, it's something that gave me concern.
Overheating has been mentioned in the 2016 announcement thread so I'm wondering if it's still an issue on 2015 models, including the SR.
*IF* I take the plunge, would I be able to sustain 90mph for the 10-15 minutes I spend on the motorway during my commute? That seems to be the new unofficial speed limit here in the UK at the moment. I was doing 95 in the middle lane a few weeks ago and got overtaken by a builders van!
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How the hell is the UK ever hot enough for that? Or how are the roads capable of 95 mph? I'm in the SF bay area and have only had a heat warning light once. But the bike is not a sustained 90 mph machine. I don't know anyone who can commute that fast.
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Before buying my fx I test drove a SR at the dealer and in 10min it reduced power due to overheating, just because of a lot of accelerations.
My 2015 FX overheats also quite quickly when I am playing hard with it
A+ Marcel
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Granted, it was a hot day, approx. 26 degrees Celsius.
Since I've now started commuting on my VFR my cruising speed in quiet conditions is pushing 100mph on the motorway. I keep my relative speed low so I'm only overtaking cars at around 10mph more than what they're doing.
Don't forget Germany's autobahns. I'm sure people with fast bikes and cars regularly cruise at 120mph or so. That's probably why the Germans limit their cars to 155mph. Beyond that fuel economy and tyre wear must make it unsustainable.
Providing you are on a reliable bike and drive safely I don't see why speed is a problem. Just in the same way that we're all happy to sit in tin cans travelling at 600mph, when we take the plane. It's when you hit something that the fun stops. I also wouldn't like a fast puncture over 100mph. I've had a couple at 70-80mph and they were fine. You soon know when a tyre starts deflating and once you're off the throttle your speed drops quickly. I've never had a blowout and trust that if I keep the pressures in range I won't.
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I regularly ride in the upper 70s and low 80s and have had no problems with overheating. I live in New Jersey next to New York City.
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My 2013 S went prematurely into limp mode due to a bad motor thermistor. (I know broken record...)
Test drives at the dealer never pushed it and my delivery was February.
So it took a while before full realization.
Checking Bluetooth APP against known ambient temperatures at startup showed the motor was 12 degrees F above room temperature.
Confirmation from a IR thermometer once "limping" showed nothing higher than 125 F degrees.
So "going into limp mode" to me merited further research and at least confirmation.
I can get to warning light, but have not achieved limp mode, but generally avoid holding 80mph into a headwind in the "buffet" of a semi.
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I have taken my Zero S to the track and it was 95-100 degrees. Yes, I was hitting thermal limiting at times, but it kicks in smoothly and is not really 'overheating', just thermal protection--twisting the throttle more does not give more power, but I was able to sustain my speed, or it did sometimes slow down slightly. Pretty extreme conditions and I was not holding back--basically I was riding it at my pace without regard to it possibly overheating... As far as range, I do have the power tank and still can only do about 60 miles at freeway speed (~70 mph).
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When I was in France, this summer I had very often an overheated engine. OK, the temps were around 30C, but this have never happened to my ICE bikes. It reduced my fun of rinding a bit. I didnt need a long range during these rides, so I opened the accelerator as far as possible. But thats what I did with my former KTM too.
I have had an overheated engine back in Holland as well at outside temps around 22C. That is disappointing for a 19k euros bike.
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Never seen this. Neither on ICE bikes nor electric.
I have often ridden my 2015 SR in 100 degree F temps for long rides (80+ miles) but they were mostly at highway speeds. No issues for me and I am 185lbs. I had read about overheating and thought it might happen but, nope.
I wonder if overheating is related to repeated hard acceleration from a stop, or slow speeds, commonly found in city riding. Passive ventilation would not provide much cooling under those circumstances. If that
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I have found that most heat is created in the motor when maintaining closest to 100% throttle.... Acceleration stoplight to stoplight, would be basically impossible to over heat the motor.
The overheating comes from spinning 6000 rpms or over 5250 for extended periods of time when the controllers is dumping that extra ~200 amps
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I don't get it, I have no problem getting my 2015 SR to overheat, just 3 - 4 consecutive stoplights at WOT is all it takes... Heck I got more overheating anxiety than range anxiety ::)
I have one of the motors that read 15c above ambient before I even start moving the bike. Do those of you with no overheating issues not have this anomaly? (BTW - Zero's stance on this is that the reading is off only at lower temperatures, at higher temperatures supposedly the reading is more accurate though that is a difficult thing to verify)
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I repeatedly WOT up the longest hill I could find and it only went up to 72C. Although ambient is only 13C.
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I don't get it, I have no problem getting my 2015 SR to overheat, just 3 - 4 consecutive stoplights at WOT is all it takes... Heck I got more overheating anxiety than range anxiety ::)
I have one of the motors that read 15c above ambient before I even start moving the bike. Do those of you with no overheating issues not have this anomaly? (BTW - Zero's stance on this is that the reading is off only at lower temperatures, at higher temperatures supposedly the reading is more accurate though that is a difficult thing to verify)
Ride fast and far to heat the motor up, pull over and use one of those fancy IR thermometers.
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Nice idea Erasmo but I fear that won't get you the internal reading if that's where the sensor sits. There will be a temperature gradient between the internal components and the case. I don't know where the sensor lives though. If it's just attached to the outside of the case then a reading via an IR gauge should work.
I also suspect that the temperature of the motor will have dropped significantly by the time you've come off the throttle, pulled to a stop and pointed a thermometer in the right direction.
If my bike's overheat light was never coming on I'd be a bit concerned that the sensor wasn't working. For those that get regular overheating it may be that some recalibration is required.
The excuse that it reads inaccurately at room temperature is lame IMHO. It must be another super cheap component from China. I also wouldn't be surprised if the logic isn't there to detect a faulty sensor, limit performance and throw an error message.
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Just rereading others' posts here and it seems ctrlburn has the answer. I think he must have got the thermistor replaced in the end?
Judging by the responses so far it does seem that the entire range is prone to overheating when pushed hard. That's useful knowledge for someone like myself who would likely suffer from limp mode twice a day when I would least want it to kick in - on the motorway. Just the same experience I had in 2013.
Let's hope there has been some work done on cooling for the 2016 models.
Thank you all, that was very helpful.
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Doesn't the Zero phone app record the ambient, motor, controller, and battery temp. while in use? Or get into the logs after the ride?
As for the temperature "sensors", does anyone know if they are simple $0.30 thermistors ($3 delivered) like the ones on the battery on a Vectrix, for instance? These can be out of range easily and can confuse the computer in thinking there is overheating when there is none. The ones in the Vectrix can be replaced easily by those comfortable taking things apart and soldering a tiny surface-mount part, and even more easily if the whole part is replaced (the sensor with the little 1cm^2 board it is mounted on the Vectrix).
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This is strange. My DS is in the garage since last week Thursday and the temp there is about 13-15 degrees. The engine temperature is with 29C higher than the battery and controller temperature. After a few days of not riding, the engine temperature should be the same as the ambient temperature. Is this a defective temp sensor?
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Is this a defective temp sensor?
It seems quite common for the motor temp sensor to read high at ambient -- mine certainly does. Someone contacted Zero about it and they said not to be concerned about it, it only matters if it's accurate near cutout temperatures.
My guess is they use a cheap thermistor for sensing motor temp, with a single-point calibration somewhere near the 212F point. Yes, it's probably adequate since that's the only area that really matters, but it hardly boosts confidence to have it read high at ambient. Type J thermocouples are pretty cheap and much more accurate than garden-variety thermistors.
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I heard that from Zero as well but frankly I don't buy it. It looks like there are motors that are more susceptible to overheating and those that are less so. From our small stastical sample it seems there is a good correlation between the overheaters and high ambient readers. Maybe I should start a poll to get a bigger sample size...
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I think what you'd really be polling about is riding style. My '14 SR occasionally flashes the red light at me, but only on triple-digit socal summer days when I'm riding faster than I should be. The only time it happened on a cooler day was when a guy pulled up next to me at a light, hollered at me about "is it electric??" and then bugged me into drag-racing him through the next few lights (for some reason traffic was really light). After about four one-block races the overtemp light started blinking and I started acting my age.
But even on those 100+ days, if I keep the speed down to ~75 on the freeway and don't behave like an idiot, the motor doesn't overheat. And mine is one of the ones that shows a dozen degrees or more high at ambient temperature.
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I am in the Bay Area myself and I regularly get the overheat warning on my 2014 Zero SR during the northbound climb on I-280 from (California 92 intersection to California 35 Skyline Blvd exit). Just doing highway speeds (75-80 mph), pretty much at any ambient temperature. This is a demanding climb at those speeds, so I am not very surprised.
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I am in the Bay Area myself and I regularly get the overheat warning on my 2014 Zero SR during the northbound climb on I-280 from (California 92 intersection to California 35 Skyline Blvd exit). Just doing highway speeds (75-80 mph), pretty much at any ambient temperature. This is a demanding climb at those speeds, so I am not very surprised.
Yes, that area is exactly where I get the warning blink as well. (Hello from Oakland)
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My '15 SR hits safe mode most every time that I ride. Admittedly I ride fairly "spirited" but, I'm not barreling down straights either. Yesterday the temps were pretty mild here in WNC and it still got me by the time I reached the top of both 226A and Hwy 80. Mildly irritating. The bike's overall fun factor certainly overshadows the heat issue though.
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I'm not an owner yet, so is it just me or are all the heat sink fins in the draft of air flow?
The controller and the motor are in the draft of the battery.
Is there any attempt to duct the air to these locations by the body work?
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I'm not an owner yet, so is it just me or are all the heat sink fins in the draft of air flow?
The controller and the motor are in the draft of the battery.
Is there any attempt to duct the air to these locations by the body work?
Yeah, the fins are not exposed very well. The side panel ducts to direct air inward towards the motor, but that's it.
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Thermistor is integrated into the motor... so it was a long repair. KTY84 NXP Semiconductor (the connector is on left side under the seat "two yellow wires") or you can find it at the Sevcom... I lost my PIN notes)
"Temp" read on right flat face of motor IR thermometer (highest temp found just front of center).
"Bluetooth" readings from Application.
After a test ride "pre-repair state"
Temp Bluetooth
84F 115F
83F 109F
79F 97F
Long since fixed.
Just now walked out and took the motor temp (3 hours since ride 73F controller 93F battery - still charging)
Temp Bluetooth
75F 84F
My main point is just because you experience a thermal cut-out or warning doesn't mean you've reached temp.
Just confirm the temps indicate such an event is reasonable before accepting, even if the logs or application show you hit temp, make reasonably sure with a thermometer.
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the outside of the motor will always be cooler, than the windings, so the ir thermometer IMO is not going to be 100% accurate.
commenting about the direction of the fins
If the fins were placed elongated around the motor there would be much less surface area to "cool" by placing the fins across the motor there is a ton more surface area for the air to hit.
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Not so much "at speed", as in maintaining 75-80MPH on a freeway, but I very often see the thermometer light up on my '14 SR when riding briskly along twisty back roads. With Custom mode set to max regen when brake applied, and riding it like I did while putting 50k miles on my '88 Magna 750, it's a common sight. I don't know how much modification it takes to get to Pike's Peak status...
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the outside of the motor will always be cooler, than the windings, so the ir thermometer IMO is not going to be 100% accurate.
commenting about the direction of the fins
If the fins were placed elongated around the motor there would be much less surface area to "cool" by placing the fins across the motor there is a ton more surface area for the air to hit.
While that makes a lot of sense, it doesn't explain why there is a 20 degree F description between the motor temperature and the air temperature after the bike has been sitting in the garage for a day or more. ??? However, you could argue that what difference does the temperature reading make? All you really have to know is at what temperature on the gauge does the controller start cutting back on the power on your particular Zero. After all, the temperature gauge is not supposed to be measuring the ambient air temperature, just the temperature inside the motor.
In any case, for me, overheating isn't an issue as I use my Zero just for transportation, not for sport riding. For that, I will use one of my IC motorcycles as they all handle and ride much better than my Zero (thank you Fast Ace) and I prefer going around tight curves to going fast in a straight line.
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120F for the battery (bms on a fx)
170 F Controller
180-200 F MOTOR IIRC off the top of my head.....
going downstairs to check motor temps....
Results: ambiant temp from floor 72F
IR result from Outside motor 71F
APP
Motor 80F
controller 70F
battery 69F
the difference of 6F is completely negligible once the temp goes above 120, all thermometers have a range, including IR ones, when they arnt calibrated they will be slightly off at the opposite end of the spectrum. Hence why the motor thermisters read higher. That way they can give a more accurate reading when they are in their calibrated zone...
and MY IR reading is from the INSIDE of the motor....I have giant breather holes in the case like Burtons "ventilated" motor
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I went toe-to-toe with a sports bike the other week, pretty much on the speed limiter for about 7-8 miles, I got the temp warning light up, but I did'nt manage to trip the actual temp overheat and associated power cut back.
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The only time it happened on a cooler day was when a guy pulled up next to me at a light, hollered at me about "is it electric??" and then bugged me into drag-racing him through the next few lights (for some reason traffic was really light). After about four one-block races the overtemp light started blinking and I started acting my age.
I understand that the overheating can be mitigated by slow and easy riding but I didn't pay the premium price for the SR only for the red color and the extra R in the lettering ;) I want to be able to be able to exploit the performance of the bike to its fullest capabilities and if there is a malfunctioning component that is limiting me from doing so, I'd like to get it taken care of. As it stands now, I now have a trade-off between heating and range since the bike doesn't shed heat when using full Regen (even only when set on braking), I keep Regen to a minimum and pay for it with reduced range while still hitting the overtemp limiter frequently.
ctrlburn, so just to clarify, after having the thermistor replaced the bike no longer suffers from overheating (or significantly less so)?
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The Zero size 6 racers would frequently employ large side-mounted ducts to force air over the cooling fins, or in some cases through the motor after opening the case (hopefully with an air filter at least!)
Obviously these ducts weigh a little bit, and they introduced a little bit of drag. And for a street application, they wouldn't do much for you unless you were moving at highway speeds.
Has anyone tried directing air over the fins using a 12V electric fan or blower? I don't think it'd be very efficient, but it might be better than nothing.
Ex:
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=83&lng=en&set=1
107 CFM, 2.16W, 38 dbA. 12V IP67 would be fine for this application. One or two of these mounted to direct air over the motor fins .. not sure if it would be practical.
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Those fans need a PPM header, they wouldn't work correctly with 12v from the bike.
I remember seeing pics of quite a few motocross Zeros in the early days with computer fans blowing over the motor. It was apparently quite effective.
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This happens to me too (temp warning after fast riding). 2015 SR, in San Jose CA. Taking it to the dealer today. I'll keep y'all updated.
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My 2011 Zero S had a fan that would come on quite a lot and stay on long after the bike was turned off. When Zero improved the motor, the next year, they dropped the fan. I had some issues with my 2013 S not charging on a hot day after a ride, so I think the heating fix will have to address both the battery and the motor. Even though the bike might run and charge, all this heat can't be good for it. I think they are going to have to circulate some coolant to both the battery and the motor even though nobody wants to deal with that extra system and the weight it would add. Zero needs to test these bikes in a Texas summer. N. California is not a good test ground.
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I've fitted a 40mm EDF (Electric Ducted Fan) to my Zero SR and push air through the motor (have cut ventilation holes in the motor face plates as other racers have done) to reduce overheating on the race track. The EDF runs off the 12v accessory circuit via an ESC/speed controller. Details and pics @ http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/zero-sr-race-mods-124073p4.html (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/zero-sr-race-mods-124073p4.html)
I've only run it at about 100W (7A x 12V) and I haven't seen a significant reduction in motor temperature on the track. I've recently upped the EDF speed controller so that it will run at a continuous 17A (removed the headlight 10A fuse and upped the accessory fuse from 10A to 25A). Hopefully that will provide greater heat dissipation.
While you could try and simply attach an EDF to blow onto the motor fins I doubt you'd get as good an effect as blowing air through the motor itself so until I can get a significant motor temperature reduction I wouldn't recommend using an EDF as an accessory fan for existing owners.
I think the 2016 SR and DSR motors will be better from an over heating perspective with their "interior permanent magnets".
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According to Zero their new 2016 Internal Permanent Magnet 75-7R motor design, which is used on their ZF13.0 SR and DSR models, is virtually impervious to overheating. So apparently Zero is well aware of overheating concerns in the previous motor designs.
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Conclusion from dealership (with input from Zero) is that my bike is not defective. Dealership was able to reproduce occurrence by riding at 90+mph for a while. Motor hit ~100 deg C, and power output is limited by the SW. This is to prevent overheating obviously.
Bottom line: it is normal behavior, part of the design. Sounds like Zero has known about this, and improved 2016 motor design to address this.
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Nice work evtricity! I like it!
Yes, although it will be 3-4 months perhaps before anyone here can trade in, the 2016 models seem to have addressed this. Luckily we are going into winter months which should help bridge that gap. For many owners who ride more conservatively they never have issues, and for them it's fine as it is. But for those who experience frustration or overheating anxiety as was stated, I would recommend upgrading before next summer if it's important enough to you. The small incremental extra battery capacity and range won't hurt either.
I read some comments in the other thread about the 2016 and everyone seemed to think there weren't a lot of improvements, but the IPM motor is a huge improvement! I promise, people on this forum will still be able to overheat it if they try, but it will take more to get there. The sustained top speed for the SR went from 85 mph to 95 mph. That takes A LOT more energy to maintain 95 mph vs 85!
So that's a huge improvement! For those who don't care about overheating the 2016 might not be worth upgrading to. But for those who wish their bike didn't, Zero was listening to you! They did something about it! And in as soon as 3-4 months you can do something about it if you want to. If you're reading this thread, chances are you are one of those who likes to go faster for longer, and you've probably already decided to test ride the 2016 the day the bike is available to see for yourself if it's worth upgrading. My guess is most of you on this thread will do exactly that.
And a side note. Shops like Hollywood Electrics were ahead of the curve, installing size 6 controllers into bikes in 2012 and 2013, before they were available. If a higher power controller were to become available through them, you now would have a motor that could better handle it. Meaning you could lower your 0-60 times, or 0-102 times. It would not change your sustained top speed, that would remain at 95. And all of this might not happen, but then again, it could.
I got a size 6 upgrade for my Zero from Hollywood Electrics back in 2012 and it was totally worth it. Let's hope something like this will happen again. But you need the correct platform first and that will be a 2016 bike. Now we wait over the winter until the first of us can go demo ride a 2016 to see, and hopefully next year we will hear about a power boost option for these new bikes from the aftermarket.
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With everyone driving differently and attempting to compare results i fret that inconsistencies mar findings.
Rear of Bike well anchored on stand.
Bluetooth app readouts
With motor starting at 80F (warmest IR reading was 69F in the fins)
25mph
after 1 minute is reads 82F
after 1 minute is reads 84F
increase to 55mph
after 2 minutes it reads 93F
after 1 minute is reads 100F
after 1 minute is reads 106F (warmest IR reading was 84F in the fins)
To compensate for ambient and starting temperatures I suppose run at 25mph until 84F then increase to 55mph and see how you compare at the 4 minute mark.
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With everyone driving differently and attempting to compare results i fret that inconsistencies mar findings.
Rear of Bike well anchored on stand.
Bluetooth app readouts
With no load on the drivetrain, you many not get any significant differences, even though in the real world, the bikes perform differently.
In the real world, the size, weight and riding style may be a large variable and that goes for range too.
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ctrlbrn thanks for posting that! it will be a good point of reference.
I need to get my hands on a stand so I can do a run and compare.
Did you do anything similar to that prior to getting the thermistor taken care of?
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No I didn't test like that - and it was really disappointing.
My Thermistor fault was very evident from the experience - by faulting very quickly - and having IR temperature reading nearly half the anticipated cut out temp.
Someone cutting out at 80% would not have that same "ease" and someone cutting out at 120% should not be used to compare experiences.
There was a really lack of diagnostic empirical data... last year.
Among steps - I was asked to check the resistance of the thermistor.
When I asked "What should it be?" I got the product sheet on the thermistor rather than a particular target.
Clearly support was asking a question on behalf of engineering, returning the results to engineering and waiting for them to digest the results and come up with another test. Not diagnosing from established troubleshooting process put a lag in every diagnostic step. I asked for the whole process so I check several things in each exchange and only got one thing at a time.
Having some benchmark data (like this) for context would have shortened or better directed the process.
A thermistor giving bad readings, has to be detected by measuring something else. (And comparisons just to ambient temperatures is only one data point)
(Think about comparing otherwise unobservable driving styles by which one boils the brake fluid. One may think they drive aggressively because their brakes regularly fade out... when actually they just may have bad brake fluid - while someone who really drives harder rarely has the same experience because their fluid does not boil at the same temperature. You could get temperature from the brakes after a drive... or check for glow... or smell... or do 0-60 60-0 over and over and count how many times it takes to fade out with odometer as a checksum).
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What about oil cooling? read ˜4 posts after this one:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4424.msg29049#msg29049 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4424.msg29049#msg29049)
"simply filling the motor slightly less than halfway with ATF almost doubled the continuous power output. "
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I have a 2013 FX with 650 miles on it. Tonight took it on the highway and got it up to 90 ish MPH, after about ten minutes at that sustained speed the temp sensor went light came on. I slowed down to 75 MPH and it turned off. Ambient temperatures tonight were around 59 degrees F - can't imagine what it's going to be like in summer at 110 degrees F and same situation? Is this normal?
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I think that is normal Xeno. If anything, you were lucky to get ten minutes out of it at what is very close to the bike's top speed. The light came on much quicker when I test rode a 2013 S but it was a much hotter day.
I think you'll find that the bike will sustain 70-80mph (in all but the hottest weather), quite comfortably. You're more likely to find battery capacity the limiting factor and a good reason to keep your speed lower.
The good news is that it doesn't sound like you have the same problem ctrlburn had with his thermistor.
I'm sure you'll love your bike just like so many other lucky owners do on this forum. Apart from testing it out like you've just done, I doubt it will be an issue for you day-to-day, even during the summer.
I hope this helps and enjoy your new bike! [emoji4]
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Since I am not a owner, I have not experienced this, but how do you know that the motor is overheating specifically? What about the battery or the controller?
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There's a light on the dash. The batteries don't produce much heat under discharge. Or under charge for that matter. The controller? I don't think that is an issue. I don't know much about how they work. I believe they are very efficient, so at least there's much less potential for heat generation.
I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the process of converting the chemical energy in the battery to mechanical energy at the motor's rotor is approximately 90% efficient. The vast majority of the 10% loss is due to heat in the motor.
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Could you upgrade a 2015 to a 2016 motor and reprogram the controller to a higher temperature limit?
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Could you upgrade a 2015 to a 2016 motor and reprogram the controller to a higher temperature limit?
I believe this is possible given zero is still using the same controller.
If you upgraded not only would have you have change the controller temp cutoff settings, but you would have to calibrate the encoder to the controller and you might need to adjust some settings in the MBB ... I haven't done this process yet but I might get a chance to in the future depending what happens with my motor :/
You might need to modify the DVT profile for the motor as well but IDK since it is kind of the same type ...
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Well ... it seems there is a firmware update required at the controller level in order to use the new IPM ... while I am sure I could install it the likelihood of being actually able to do something like that without a dealer involved isn't likely :/
And who knows what it will do to older bikes. I am sure we will get more details in the future. Guess we will see when the first "upgrade" is made as a DIY solution ;)
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+1 in upgrading the motor to 2016 one...
This is something it should be offered to everyone -specially the ones with SR models- which as pointed out already got the "R" for a reason...
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I find the overheating issue ironic since it shows that "electric" gives an opposite result of ICE. At least around San Diego, I will never have to worry because when commuting we spend most of our time between 0 mph and 40 mph in heavy traffic. I have had my '15 SR for a month and in 1200 miles of riding have never seen the motor temp indicate over 180 and that's probably 20 degrees off since it's always 20 degrees above ambient when "cold." I have ridden around 70 for longer periods without overheating on warm days. As a commuter, these things are great because they cool off when standing still while the air cooled ICE bikes must keep moving to avoid heating up.
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Justin and I went to Streetbike on Sunday to ride their 2015 SR demo bike. Justin left me with a lot more charge than I anticipated (thank you sir), due to his wish to try city riding. It gave me a good opportunity to test motorway riding.
The conditions were a little challenging as there was a lot of wind which tends to affect the Zero more than my VFR.
So the test was to ride with the traffic as I do on my commute. Some of the traffic on my commute is rather fast, so I'm often cruising at 90mph, sometimes more. I know that might sound ridiculous to some of you, but I'm just telling you as it is. On my way up to meet Jason I followed a BMW who seemed quite happy to do the ton (100) when traffic didn't slow him down. Another guy in a Mercedes just had to be the fastest guy on the road. I let him. When we got to a long stretch of roadworks I caught up. He then decided he'd do 70 in a 50 despite there being average speed cameras. Cop, criminal or nutter? I didn't want to find out...
Anyhow, the SR coped well on the first run. The orange temperature warning light did start blinking after a few miles as the motor temperature went up to around 220F. It didn't seem to want to go solid except for a couple of brief moments before I pulled off the motorway. The motor was up to around 226-240F at that point but I hadn't noticed any drop in power.
I had gone a couple of junctions further than the exit for Streetbike so I turned round and rejoined the motorway southbound. It became immediately apparent that I had been in a tailwind on the first run. Although the motor temperature had managed to drop below 200F on the slip road and roundabout, it now very quickly maxed out at 244-246F. This is when I noticed the power reduction; at first limiting the speed to 85mph and then dropping to 75. It didn't drop any further and the motor started to cool a bit. When traffic conditions meant I had to close the throttle for a little while, the 75mph limit lifted and I'm sure the throttle felt more responsive too.
My NC750S would have sustained 90mph in that headwind without any trouble. Power isn't the issue here because the SR is more powerful than the NC. It is purely and simply heat and the inability of the cooling system to dissipate it quickly enough. The ambient temperature was 16C. Mild for the UK at this time of year but by no means hot.
Needless to say, the battery drained very quickly during my motorway runs. In fact, so much so that I started to wonder if it would manage my commute on a single charge! I'm sure it would, providing I kept my speed down to 80 on the motorway. The extra ten mph or so on top of that figure really chews through the juice.
I wanted to see for myself how the SR would cope with sustained high speeds, especially after all the discussion this topic has raised. However, should any current or potential SR owners be worried by my findings and those of others here? I don't think so. Faulty thermistors aside of course...
Part of the reason I got rid of the NC just over a month ago is because I concluded that it just wasn't suitable for the high speed sections on my commute. This had more to do with the lack of any fairing making me very cold and wet at speed. I really didn't fancy riding into the winter with no fairing. I also missed the power of my Fazer, which was nice to have on the motorway.
This last test ride on a Zero has really brought it home to me about what these bikes are designed for. They are certainly capable of short bursts at high speed but the real limiting factor, more so than heat, is the energy consumed by air resistance. Something that Craig Vetter and Terry H are so experienced with. Without a fairing you don't want to be sustaining more than 70-80mph for any length of time. Even at those speeds your range is going to be limited to well under 100 miles with the possible exception of power tank users.
In conclusion, I think this just goes to underline the fact that Zero's bikes have been engineered around the limitations of the current battery technology. I still think they've done a great job, even without the new IPM motor. Disappointment lies ahead only for those who try to push them into modes of use that are outside their design scope.
Will they do my commute? Yes, if I go back to using the route I've been using for the last three years: one junction on the M25, followed by a mile or two on the A1 before I hit a 50 limit. I rode it yesterday and it really isn't a bad route overall, despite having used the M1 and A41 for the last few months.
This will I/won't I on the electric motorcycle front has been driving me nuts for nearly three years now!
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First of all, thanks for sharing the testing.
I would agree with you with a lot of the statements, except one: "…what these bikes are designed for…"
Well, Zero is selling their bike worldwide, which means they should test ride/homologate them on these bases, and having travelled intensely around the world -including the UK where you live- in my country (Spain) it becomes challenging just keep up riding the bike within Zero 2014 claimed std. specs…or for what I was told was designed for. Obviously this is not the case in the UK, which is great news for the UK riders ;)
When you get a bike with the "R" and you are told it has bigger magnets to handle higher temperatures & speeds, etc..., you expect more (at least, I do). Unfortunately, it looks like the first SR 2014-15 models had what I call "a declaration of intent" with poor testing behind.
These are not race bikes, no question, but I'm not racing (the times where I was riding my R bikes at non-sense/crazy speeds are over for me)
The new 2016 SR motor 75-7R supports what I just stated…
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My pleasure Lipo, I'm glad you found it useful. In the back of my mind I think I remember you mentioning your experiences with overheating in Spain. It must be in another topic.
In this topic I notice you suggested that existing SR owners should be given the opportunity to be upgraded to the new IPM motor. That's an excellent idea! I remember when Justin's 2012 needed a new motor due to water ingress. I was told that the motors are really cheap, in the order of about £100. The newer motors may be a little more. It also sounds like there is some reprogramming required.
I agree with you Lipo. Zero could offer a replacement to existing owners. Many, like Benswing perhaps, may not take up the offer because they don't experience overheating. Others just won't be that bothered to go to the hassle. For a few people like yourself, it would be a great gesture of goodwill from Zero. In fact it would be a great PR move generally in my opinion. The kind of thing that might get them a good write-up in the press! [emoji4]
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I'd be one of those that wouldn't go through the hassle (nor the expense!). Sure, I'm envious of the new SR owners (mine's a 2014), with their improved suspension, heat-resistant motor, higher battery capacity and whatnot, but I just have to remind myself that my bike still does every single thing it did when I bought it, and I've had the pleasure of riding it for two years now. It would be quite costly to upgrade, even "just" the motor, so I'm not going to do it.
Not to mention the bike would be out of commission for at least a few days during the conversion. Instead, I'll keep my money in my pocket and just ride my fool ass off.
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My pleasure Lipo, I'm glad you found it useful. In the back of my mind I think I remember you mentioning your experiences with overheating in Spain. It must be in another topic.
In this topic I notice you suggested that existing SR owners should be given the opportunity to be upgraded to the new IPM motor. That's an excellent idea! I remember when Justin's 2012 needed a new motor due to water ingress. I was told that the motors are really cheap, in the order of about £100. The newer motors may be a little more. It also sounds like there is some reprogramming required.
I agree with you Lipo. Zero could offer a replacement to existing owners. Many, like Benswing perhaps, may not take up the offer because they don't experience overheating. Others just won't be that bothered to go to the hassle. For a few people like yourself, it would be a great gesture of goodwill from Zero. In fact it would be a great PR move generally in my opinion. The kind of thing that might get them a good write-up in the press! [emoji4]
Thanks for your reply.
As you pointed out it would be great if they offer such a deal (in my opinion a lot of the intensive/hard use riders would be extremely happy, as well as the "hot" country located ones). After all, that's what we bought (or we were sold), a kind of sports bike.
Let's see what happens... ;)
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I've just been reading Burton's thread about putting a 2014 SR motor in his 2013 S bike.
I've learnt that a new SR motor is $1,600, or approximately £1,050 or €1,500 at current exchange rates. Quite simply ten times more expensive than I thought! This does rather blow the idea of Zero doing a free upgrade out of the water!
The new IPM motors for 2016 are bound to be more expensive and there is the added complication of having to reprogram the controller. I'd say this would be far too costly an exercise for Zero to consider.
I have just thought of an idea that might provide a cheap solution to this problem. I'll start a separate topic for it though. It is a little bonkers...
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I don't think it makes economic sense to Zero to offer a cheap upgrade path to the IPM motors even if the actual cost to do so is low. They are in for the money, not so much for the love of motorcycling is my feeling... That said, I think that they should be able to price it in a way that would allow those who really want to upgrade and keep their old bikes to do it in a cost-effective way vs. buying a new bike, but not cheap enough so that they would cannibalize new bike sales. Kind of find a happy medium where it will prompt some to upgrade and others to buy new.
For example. If I had a 2014 or 2015 SR and wanted an IPM version of it now, if I were to sell it, I figure I'd loose at least $5K if not more. Let's also say taking a $5K hit on resale seems too much to me - so I'd rather keep my old bike and not buy a new 2016 model. But if I could upgrade for $2K, maybe I'd do it. I'm sure Zero will make money on such IPM upgrades, where they won't make any money otherwise...
Of course, I might be terribly off in my logic...
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That sounds reasonable to me Kocho, but then logic isn't a forte of mine! Like most people I allow emotions to cloud my judgement and suffer from mis-perception regularly. I don't see Zero in the same light as a bank or law firm or big supermarket chain. They do get it wrong but seem to be learning as they go along. The product is expensive due to high costs, a small market and few economies of scale. Early days still, IMHO. [emoji4]
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Like most people I allow emotions to cloud my judgement and suffer from mis-perception regularly. I
Your rational seems to be more like a latin (like me :D) than a brit…
I would love if Zero would offer the upgrade…but I suspect as you guys pointed out that it is unlikely to be happening :'(
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I did four 0-60-0 MPH sprints (full throttle and hard as I dare braking).
I logged the motor temps at each stop from the Android application.
Air Temperature was 50F.
Time Controller Motor Charge% Range
7:51 48F 59F 100 85.0 START
7:52 63F 79F 100 84.0
7:52 72F 97F 98 82.0
7:52 79F 117F 98 82.0
7:53 86F 140F 97 81.0
I think this is "normal" for a 2013 S.