ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: xmjsilverx on August 15, 2015, 08:46:58 PM
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I know Zero is doing the best they can to make a great bike at a somewhat affordable price while growing the company but I think we would all like to see some things changed. Here are my top 5.
1: More range - I would like to see a 200 mile highway range on these bikes. I don't think it's impossible for them in the near future with cheaper battery costs and newer technology. I am sure the price would have to go up some but this would make the bike much more desirable to people.
2: Cheaper cost - I realize this contradicts the first one but if they don't increase the range I would like to see the costs continually drop slowly.
3: Quick charge option - I think I could live with the slow 1.3kwh on board charger but I would really like to see them partner with Tesla supercharger network or work something out with Chademo to get a fast DC charge solution. This combined with a 200 mile range would make touring trips on this bike easy.
4: Better cooling - If I am doing some spirited riding in 70 degree temps I can get it to 212 easily. I know this isn't the overheat limit but it is where the warning comes on. I hate to have to think about it overheating while doing fun back-roads or commuting in 90 degree weather. I would be awesome if they could accomplish this without going to liquid cooling.
5: Larger rear tire - I know this one sounds silly and I am sure the smaller width rear tire makes for a more efficient bike but it also makes the bike look like a 250. I would love to see a larger rear tire on there to give the bike a more powerful and aggressive look.
I am sure everyone has different things they would like to see changed.
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And I would like a million dollars!
It isn't going to happen, the technology is not here yet to have an affordable 200 mile highway range bike yet. If you ignore price it would also be to heavy.
With current range price will come down over time, it won't happen next year though. There may be a reduction in price due to increased number of bikes sold.
Consider what the bike will be when battery technology becomes 4 times the current capacity. You could treble the current range and the bike would be lighter than it is now. That day will come but it most will likely take a few years. At worst batteries are getting 10% more energy dense each year. At that rate it will take 7 years to double in capacity, 14 years to be 4 times current capacity. But I would expect a "break through" before then.
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1. Fairing
2. DC charging
That's all I care for.
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1. Fairing
2. DC charging
That's all I care for.
+10
Maybe not all I care about but those are by far the 2 most needed.
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grmarks, no need to be like that. Obviously these are things I would like to see and if Zero can't do them then it's not a deal breaker but I also don't think they are too far fetched giving it 5 years time. I did say in the near future. Why the fairing option? Is this for efficiency, speed, noise, looks? It seems like everyone can agree on some sort of DC quick charge. I would love to see something with the Tesla supercharger network. I could be wrong but I think by the end of this year the number of super chargers will outweigh the chademos in the US and 2016 they will blow them away. Also don't most Chademos cost $? If there were some sort of partnership between Zero and Tesla that cost could be rolled into the price of the bike.
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I would like to see a model with a larger chassis. That would make the bike more stable on the highway, provide more room for a passenger and luggage and also provide more room for additional batteries. Plus, a larger chassis might facilitate installation of a 1/2 fairing design. Of course, that is not going to do anything for the price of the bike. ::) It will be interesting to see how well the Energica Ego sells once it arrives in the U.S. That bike is deluxe, but so is the cost and I wonder how large a market there is for an electric motorcycle at that retail price?
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I would like to see a model with a larger chassis.
I agree. I've always ridden sportbikes, but I'm getting too old to be bent over all the time, and I'd value stability over lightning-quick handling anymore. I've never been much for cruisers, but I think I'd prefer that at this point in my life...but give me an old-school "standard" like the classic KZ1000 and I'd be a truly happy camper. Comfortable, flexible, nice looking, competent at everything.
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Richard230, the bike you are looking for has been showing here on the forum for a few weeks now.
The Chinese Goldwing replica. 8)
The president of our local EV club sums it up very well.
He says that there are three basic things you can have in an EV ( any vehicle really ):
Fast
Far
Cheap
Pick TWO
You can go Fast and Far, but, not cheap. ( Tesla )
You can go fast and cheap, it might only be to the end of the block, but, you can do it.
You can go far and cheap ( comparativley ) using HEAVY lead batteries, but, takes a while to get to speed, and, a while to slow down.
Given that I can buy Brand New Zero, or, few year old Top of the Line Nissan Leaf for less than a Lithium upgrade for
the Electric Toyota Paseo that I had 6 years ago would have cost me at the time, I am relatively content with the
speed of progress.
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Yes, we all want fast charging. Charging rate is the #1 stumbling block to EV adoption. (price is a close 2nd)
Regarding Tesla superchargers: Tesla batteries operate at a nominal voltage of 375 Volts. Zeros could only use that if the charging battery status was somehow different from the running status. And it would take a minimum of 4 of Zero's batteries to get that high. 3 won't do it.
With CHAdeMO (1,238 CHAdeMO to 211 Tesla Superchargers) we don't have to change the voltage for most of them. Also, we would only need to change the battery charging status to be 250V instead of going all the way up to 375V.
Assuming such a battery charging status change is feasible...
I would also like to see another design instead of "commuter vehicle". I'd like to see a cruiser, especially with a lower seat height for shorter people. (Not for me, I'm 6'0", but have friends who want a Zero but haven't bought one because it's too tall.)
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Another +1 to fast charging options. If charge time can be brought down (without needing to fit side / top boxes to lug around external chargers) there's absolutely nothing wrong with the current range. Without a doubt, charge time will continue to decrease and capacity increase giving us a happy middle ground, however seeing a significant jump rather than incremental improvement to charge time would be one of the best possible changes I could hope for in a future model.
Another +1 to that larger rear too. The current aesthetic of the bikes in no way matches their power.
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Ditto about the tires! I meant to mention that.
Would love to see 120/70 on the front and 150/70 on the rear. Or at least something that gives more options when choosing aftermarket tires. In case you couldn't tell, I just got new tires and this was a bit of a dilemma.
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grmarks, no need to be like that. Obviously these are things I would like to see and if Zero can't do them then it's not a deal breaker but I also don't think they are too far fetched giving it 5 years time. I did say in the near future. Why the fairing option? Is this for efficiency, speed, noise, looks? It seems like everyone can agree on some sort of DC quick charge. I would love to see something with the Tesla supercharger network. I could be wrong but I think by the end of this year the number of super chargers will outweigh the chademos in the US and 2016 they will blow them away. Also don't most Chademos cost $? If there were some sort of partnership between Zero and Tesla that cost could be rolled into the price of the bike.
I wouldn't call 5 years the near future, but if you do then OK. Yes if there is a break through (and there are many different possibilities in labs at the moment) then it could happen in 5 years.
But for next year the fairing and DC charging is a really good choice. Why a fairing, because it could increase highway range by 20% with the same battery size.
Zero have said that Tesla DC chargers voltage is to high for the zero. Would it be possible to have some kind of "black box" to lower the voltage (a big resistor)?
I would also like to see a decent sized "in tank" lockable storage area. There is plenty of room to make the storage bigger. Maybe a storage area big enough to hold a power tank, if you see my point?
Has anyone ever removed the storage container and taken it with them some where?
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#1 is Zero should do is make global pricing the same, there should only be dollar conversion, + duties/taxes + transport costs.
Adding 6K to 10K to price after conversion is ridiculous, especially when local dealer network carries no stock of parts and accessories.
#2 Service/repair manual with circuit diagrams
#3 fast DC charging support is a must.
#4 better aerodynamic /fairing.
#5 more info about Electric Vehicle Technology Zero needs to have more videos and interviews about their technology and where they plan to push technology for motorcycles.
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Great been waiting for a post like this and I'm sure Zero can put all this on the bike they will put out in a few months ;). Range, charging speed, bike speed, price all great and I think Zero will always be trying to improve on those things so here are my smaller improvement wishes.
1. All settings able to be adjusted on the bike, no app needed. App idea is cool may need some updating but I don't want to be dealing with a phone battery or dropping it with gloves on to set the bike up for max range or max fun. Built in GPS would be nice too :)
2. Usb connection for diagnostic work with Zero from home. Sorry dealers but for firmware and BMS, MMB issues that most can't fix anyway makes no need to go pay a nice chunk of change plus hauling it around when they will do most of the "fixing" in CA.
3. Either a small laptop or tablet style battery or again usb power connection for the BMS, MBB so it can diagnose any problems regardless of the main battery's SOC with maybe a mico SD card for log storage easy to pull up and would be a hard copy if needed.
4. Lockable hinged lid for the storage tank because well frankly I would have NEVER even thought of going zipper. Its ok they had other things to think about at the time.
5. Parking brake, "slow" reverse (because we can) , LED lights all around (because we should) and helmet lock on the rear (because why not)
Ok so it ends up being more than five but all of them good in my opinion.
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I may be one of the few who would want to see either Zero or another electric motorcycle company associated with one or more of the major manufacturers like Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, or Suzuki, (Harley, not so much), with trained technicians at all dealerships. That would get my attention. Other than fairings and a little tweaking of cost, most of these other issues are outside Zero's ability to do much at this time. Fast charging is only going to work well if there are lots of stations, like at most gas stations and it won't be motorcycles that causes that to happen.
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Slow reverse is a great idea, making electric power even more versatile.
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Yes, we all want fast charging. Charging rate is the #1 stumbling block to EV adoption. (price is a close 2nd)
Regarding Tesla superchargers: Tesla batteries operate at a nominal voltage of 375 Volts. Zeros could only use that if the charging battery status was somehow different from the running status. And it would take a minimum of 4 of Zero's batteries to get that high. 3 won't do it.
I would also like to see another design instead of "commuter vehicle". I'd like to see a cruiser, especially with a lower seat height for shorter people. (Not for me, I'm 6'0", but have friends who want a Zero but haven't bought one because it's too tall.)
Tesla superchargers can theoretically output down to 50V DC (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/23180-Finally-120KW-Supercharging!/page2?p=479755&viewfull=1#post479755), and supply 210A continuous (300-350A for short periods). This could theoretically charge a ZF12.5 Power Tank bike from 20% to 80% - 55 highway miles - in about 15 minutes.
Today this isn't ideal for a few reasons, but things are rapidly improving.
1. Tesla is largely building out SC stations with 100 mile gaps (http://supercharge.info/) along interstates. Zero's largest capacity bike doesn't quite have the range to do this today at highway speeds; however it's likely Tesla will backfill these stretches as the launch of the Model 3 approaches. I expect we'll see heavily trafficked routes with 20-30 mile gaps between stations, and software to route you to the nearest available station as utilization increases.
2. Zero could build a larger capacity bike using their existing battery technology. An 8 brick 22 kWh bike (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4626.0) would have approximately 220 Ah; couple the larger battery with a Vetter-style fairing and you would have 200+ miles of highway range. It would be heavy and expensive, but not unduly so - Zero could make a profit at $25k. Lower the seat, give it cruiser styling, and it'd be priced pretty close to Harley & Victory cruisers and perhaps a little lighter at ~600 pounds.
Performance, even with a Size 6 controller, would be a little weak due to the extra weight, and the additional weight would make the bike more susceptible to overheating. Zero could build a larger 75-9 oil-cooled motor and use two Gen4 controllers to make it one of the fastest cruisers on the market.
3. Battery cooling would be tough at high charge rates. This would be helped by increasing the battery size; a 220 Ah battery would only see a 1.5C maximum charge rate, which might be acceptable for short periods. This would give a 20-80% charge in approximately 25 minutes for 120 miles of highway range, very similar to Tesla Model S vehicles. Even a 1C charge rate would still complete within 40 minutes, which I think would be acceptable to many people.
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Fast charging, range, performance and quality are all things that customers already demand, so you know Zero is already working on them. They could all be addressed by offering further revisions of the current chassis. But eventually Zero will have to design a next generation of their bikes, and when they do, I hope they consider...
1. Adjustable foot peg height.
Zero wants to keep the number of parts to a minimum to reduce cost and complexity. That's why the SR, S and DS have so many parts in common, even though they're trying to be 3 very different things. As a result, a sport bike has the same low foot peg position as a commuter and adventure bike. My solution: In the next chassis redesign, have the foot pegs, brake lever and rear brake master cylinder located on a mount that can be adjusted vertically on the frame. This would allow the SR to have a more aggressive lean angle and seat position while DS riders would have a vertical position for going over rocks... all on one frame! I don't think this has been tried before, largely because you couldn't do this with the shifter.
2. A new headlight.
I completely understand that Zero has to use off the shelf parts wherever possible to offset cost. That said, the headlight is a visual center point of the bike, and crucial to its personality. Zero is almost 10 years old, and designing its own headlight and facade would help cement the company as a mature brand. But a headlight wouldn't be complete without...
3. Fairings.
I propose a full fairing for the SR and a quarter fairing for the S and DS. There should be 2 interchangeable windscreens: one standard sized for the S and SR and the other much taller (reminiscent of the KTM 990/1190) for the DS. I assume taller guys gravitate towards the DS anyways.
4. A better, more consistent seat.
Zero's motto for demo rides is "putting butts in seats". But there are a surprisingly large number of complaints here. Even my FX seat gets a little stiff after a (comparatively) long ride. This is something Zero should take seriously, as one ill formed seat can ruin a demo ride. Seats are like shaving: when its done well, no one notices. It's only when something goes wrong that the topic comes up.
5. Painted body panels.
With options... Please!!!!
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Actually, I like my SR mostly as-is. Most of my needs would be kits that Zero could provide:
1. A real rear fender for those of us not located in California. Now I read the "Design" column in Motorcycle Consumer News, and I know "fendas ain't kewl" but I actually use my bike for more than posing, and that sometimes involves coming back from lunch or the mall in the rain.
I was so desperate, I made one myself.
2. A Craig Vetter style fairing. I hate watching my battery drain on the expressway like oil from the Exxon Valdez. And I love the '50s style dustbin fairinged racers. An awesome extra would be protomech's idea of extra batteries, or at least brackets for them.
Heck, I'd just take a brackets kit and a precut fairing, and I could put it on myself.
About chargers:
With the power tank, my range is pretty spot on. Honestly, I don't need better charging. The quick-charger Zero gave me as a gift is fine. I bought a couple Elcons and they were a waste, as I did a trip with them and it was rather a rough time, so I won't be doing that again any time soon.
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In order of preference:
1. 6kW of onboard charger, dialable to suit available supply
2. Cruiser/tourer body - naked street is good around town but it seems most of us are going for jaunts in the country.
3. 4kW of onboard charger, switchable to suit available supply
4. More battery - see 2
5. More charger - see1, 2, 3 and 4
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better break 4 piston radial for exemple
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A lot of the suggestions are very niche which I think is expected given this forum is mostly frequented by enthusiasts. Can you really see a dustbin fairing being commercially successful with the Instagram generation? Craig Vetter can already sort you out if that's what you want.
My 5:
1. Built in charger a la Renault Zoe that uses the inverter in the controller to charge. I don't actually need fast charging but it would save weight and be a big selling point for those that do need it.
2. Standard tyre sizes. All a larger rear tyre will do is slow the handling but a more common size for wider choice would be worth the trade off. You don't get more corner grip from a wide tyre and the SR isn't particular powerful compared to any modern superbike.
3. LED lighting because it fits the image and makes sense.
4. Data logging through the Zero app. This would only require a good programmer for a few days to implement but it would be cool to capture data on energy use etc. That you could download through the app and maybe share online to compare performance. It would also provide 'big data' for Zero to optimise their products.
5. Cost. I know this is limited by battery tech and economies of scale and I think the 2015 bikes hold a good middle ground in quality of components so any price reductions can only be a good thing. Zeros are arguably the best commuting vehicles on the market right now but financially they don't stack up against a Japanese middleweight for commuting and that is a major barrier to widespread adoption.
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Here's mine from a track day sports bike rider perspective:
1. Dual front disc brakes
2. Liquid cooled motor
3. Sports bike setup inc. fairings, higher pegs and more rearward seat
4. Better rear brake
... and from the perspective of a green tech guy who wants to use a Zero to maximise my home solar generation and reduce reliance on the Grid:
5. Support for grid/off-grid inverters to use the bike to power your house when the sun don't shine (in a similar manner as the Tesla PowerWall)
The more I think about #5 the more I think this helps justify the cost of a Zero when it doubles to cut your power bill by using your own solar and avoiding peak tariffs.
Given a 2015 ZF12.5 can do 339,000 miles before capacity drops to 80%, battery degradation from using in the home shouldn't be a concern like it is for Nissan Leafs etc.
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Actually, I like my SR mostly as-is. Most of my needs would be kits that Zero could provide:
1. A real rear fender for those of us not located in California. Now I read the "Design" column in Motorcycle Consumer News, and I know "fendas ain't kewl" but I actually use my bike for more than posing, and that sometimes involves coming back from lunch or the mall in the rain.
I was so desperate, I made one myself.
2. A Craig Vetter style fairing. I hate watching my battery drain on the expressway like oil from the Exxon Valdez. And I love the '50s style dustbin fairinged racers. An awesome extra would be protomech's idea of extra batteries, or at least brackets for them.
Heck, I'd just take a brackets kit and a precut fairing, and I could put it on myself.
About chargers:
With the power tank, my range is pretty spot on. Honestly, I don't need better charging. The quick-charger Zero gave me as a gift is fine. I bought a couple Elcons and they were a waste, as I did a trip with them and it was rather a rough time, so I won't be doing that again any time soon.
Even a fairing option more like
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-06/767628C2-BA73-4DB9-BB64-6F8BEE546B22_zpsw5kmcuxc.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-06/767628C2-BA73-4DB9-BB64-6F8BEE546B22_zpsw5kmcuxc.jpg.html)
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A lot of the suggestions are very niche which I think is expected given this forum is mostly frequented by enthusiasts. Can you really see a dustbin fairing being commercially successful with the Instagram generation? Craig Vetter can already sort you out if that's what you want.
My 5:
1. Built in charger a la Renault Zoe that uses the inverter in the controller to charge. I don't actually need fast charging but it would save weight and be a big selling point for those that do need it.
2. Standard tyre sizes. All a larger rear tyre will do is slow the handling but a more common size for wider choice would be worth the trade off. You don't get more corner grip from a wide tyre and the SR isn't particular powerful compared to any modern superbike.
3. LED lighting because it fits the image and makes sense.
4. Data logging through the Zero app. This would only require a good programmer for a few days to implement but it would be cool to capture data on energy use etc. That you could download through the app and maybe share online to compare performance. It would also provide 'big data' for Zero to optimise their products.
5. Cost. I know this is limited by battery tech and economies of scale and I think the 2015 bikes hold a good middle ground in quality of components so any price reductions can only be a good thing. Zeros are arguably the best commuting vehicles on the market right now but financially they don't stack up against a Japanese middleweight for commuting and that is a major barrier to widespread adoption.
I have put a "dustbin" on a friends bike I raced/rode until dismantled pic above and I would be to your "referred" Instagram population not that I use it much but I am of the younger generation; maybe I'm weird but I like the bike with the front fenders pinched I between the triple clamp and the dustbin style fairing. Yes when I ride off-road I sure as shit don't take that bike but for around town riding it seemed to make the bike range encrease noticeably. Only complaint is I wish it was 10% bigger so I could get under the windshield and then the wind noise increase meant would go away...
Your point number 4..... If you plug into a zero it logs all the data from every ride, not sure what more info you would want, you just have to know how to get it off correctly
I'm pretty sure the new bikes come (on the s wheels) with a 150 rear....
That's decently wide
Seems many of the things people want are basically already there, give them time give them time
Yes they have been around almost 10 years now, but they have only had a legitimized bike (MY13 and newer) for street riding for a few years, yes they made a 12s 11s etc but thoes bikes can't compare to the 13 and newer stuff.
I love the size of the old stuff!!! all I wish is they would make an Electricross (small bike) again...... Size 2 or 4 single brick battery and a zf motor, would get stunning range, insane power, and have the small bike market sealed up in 2 weeks for them, all the componentry fits inside the Electricross frame......
Hell in really tight trails it's hard for me to keep up with the Electricross even on a dirt fx that's a little hopped up, chain, knobbys, s motor that little bike is quick..... Really quick! Shit even on bike tires,
One thing that they should allow users to do after 6 months or a year of electric ownership they should allow you take bike into dealer and reflash low and high modes to more "snappy"
A bike with 44hp and 70ftlbs should be able to easily lift the front tire from a dead stop, the fx cannot! It rolls up to 30 then it yanks the wheel like you would expect it to at 0...... I want that romp from 0 not from 30! You cant jump over logs if you cant get your wheel up!
Talking about the fx obviously ::)
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5. Support for grid/off-grid inverters to use the bike to power your house when the sun don't shine (in a similar manner as the Tesla PowerWall)
Agree. This should be a factory-supported option; it'd be expensive but it's a great use of the vehicle at-rest.
Of course, it really needs...
1. A more powerful onboard charger. Inverter-based charging would be fantastic for packaging; gallium and silicon carbide (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3941.0) look promising for a dedicated onboard charger (which may be more efficient than inverter-based charging). Bring it to production, make the option $2500 if you need to - people are already paying that for heavy/bulky Elcons from Hollywood Electrics.
2. Larger battery faired cruiser using the Tesla SC network, as mentioned previously. Victory is starting to play in the electric space, but Zero can do it better and do it first. Make Harley blush about shrugging their shoulders over 50 miles of city range. RS (range size 4) and RSR (range size 6) options.
- 150 mile 6 brick ZF19 RS $22k, 520 pounds, 7.1s 0-60 w/ 180 lb rider
- 200 mile 8 brick ZF25 RS $27k, 590 pounds, 7.8s 0-60 w/ 180 lb rider
- 150 mile 6 brick ZF19 RSR $24k, 526 pounds, 5.0s 0-60 w/ 180 lb rider
- 200 mile 8 brick ZF25 RSR $29k, 596 pounds, 5.4s 0-60 w/ 180 lb rider
Add $2k to these prices to access the SuperCharger network. Or maybe even less - Zero could probably negotiate prices down to $1k. And at that point, maybe make it standard.
For reference, Zero S ZF12.5 is approximately 5.9s 0-60 and Zero SR ZF12.5 is approximately 4.5s 0-60 with a 180 pound rider. IMO Zero should instead make the size 6 powertrain standard for the RS - making it a bit faster than the standard S - and add a larger controller or dual controllers for the RSR. Adding the fairing, charger and large battery will require a premium price; increasing the power for the powertrain is almost free for the size 6, and easily justified for a dual controller bike for those that want more speed.
None of this is impossible, and it's not something that requires crazy futuretech. Zero has the battery and powertrain technology today. Tesla has a functioning Supercharger network w/ 100 mile gaps and it's only getting better and more densely populated. Craig Vetter has fairings, and my secret wish is that the recent lack of blog updates are because he's prepping a factory faired bike with Zero.
CHAdeMO and CCS both theoretically can support up to 200A and the ~100V ranges that could charge a Zero bike quickly. In practice both of these standards are poorly supported today on the ground, have questionable low voltage support, and even at 200A (essentially no QC stations of either standard support this today) are slower than the thousands of Tesla SC QC in existence now.
Tesla also has a simple, small inlet that easily adapts to J1772 using a locking adapter, CHAdeMO, or any variety of 120V/240V standard plugs.
3. Add OTA updates and diagnostics, similar to Tesla. This is a non-insignificant support burden - I know! - but this is really a piece that Zero should own, and feed back to dealers for support. Also could add a small display and Android Auto or something similar, but I think personally this is likely to be a distraction. Keep it simple.
4. Make the size 6 standard across the line - yes, FX too. It's a minimal cost and weight gain, and significantly improves low end acceleration even on the bikes that will be more quickly limited by battery power (Zero FX, 3 brick S/DS). The bulk cost of the controllers is basically the same for Size 4 and Size 6, and it'll fix the complaints that the bikes are "soft" off the line. Bring the dual-controller powertrain to the SR, and gear it up (25/98) so that there's still a 3s 0-60 and 115+ mph top speed.
5. Improve the bike cooling. Fill the motor with oil and add additional ram air ducts if needed. Calibrate the thermal sensors so that they're not artificially limiting performance. Zero consistently gets dinged for overheating even on the SR, there should be no excuses for bikes in this price class.
Bump the prices if they need to, to make these things happen. Victory is setting a precedent, Zero can easily undercut them and still deliver a vastly superior bike.
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Can you really see a dustbin fairing being commercially successful with the Instagram generation?
I wouldn't lump all of the current generation into one piece like that. I personally know of some youngsters that relate to EVs and their needs (including range maximization), who would certainly understand and agree with a high-efficiency option like a full fairing. Just like those of us who are older, some are more concerned with aesthetics and style, and some are more concerned with function. That's why there are so many motorcycles manufactured, and why there should be options for people, including a high-efficiency, range-extending fairing option for our electric bikes.
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Definitely better spray protection from the back wheel.
A big indicator warning light on the console, i want it in my face so I know I've not accidentally left it on. Or even a sound when the indicator is on.
A more effective full beam on the headlight. I want to light the road further ahead, it needs to be more focused.
Integrated heated handlebar grips.
Faster charging opens up a lot more opportunities for travelling greater distances.
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Can you really see a dustbin fairing being commercially successful with the Instagram generation?
I wouldn't lump all of the current generation into one piece like that. I personally know of some youngsters that relate to EVs and their needs (including range maximization), who would certainly understand and agree with a high-efficiency option like a full fairing. Just like those of us who are older, some are more concerned with aesthetics and style, and some are more concerned with function. That's why there are so many motorcycles manufactured, and why there should be options for people, including a high-efficiency, range-extending fairing option for our electric bikes.
I wouldn't argue that there are some younger people that wouldn't mind a dustbin fairing, I like the retro look and I'm 27. But I can only think of one friend who would share the same thoughts and I can't see it being commercially viable, that is my main point. A modern sportbike style fairing but made a bit wider and taller would still be a huge aerodynamic improvement and much more practical for the majority. I bet some time in a wind tunnel with computer analysis could design some small fixes and improvements like winglets and blocking off unnecessary gaps in the current design which would be worth a couple of percentage points on range with virtually no aesthetic or practical penalty.
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5. Support for grid/off-grid inverters to use the bike to power your house when the sun don't shine (in a similar manner as the Tesla PowerWall)
4. Make the size 6 standard across the line - yes, FX too. It's a minimal cost and weight gain, and significantly improves low end acceleration even on the bikes that will be more quickly limited by battery power (Zero FX, 3 brick S/DS). The bulk cost of the controllers is basically the same for Size 4 and Size 6, and it'll fix the complaints that the bikes are "soft" off the line. Bring the dual-controller powertrain to the SR, and gear it up (25/98) so that there's still a 3s 0-60 and 115+ mph top speed..
2 controllers won't help top speed, the limiter on top speed is the motor by the controller, the motor really needs to spin to 10000 Rpms and be limited to 9000 this would give everyone the speed and cooling they want without using the motor maxed out at full throttle....
Size six on a fx doesn't exist.... And it won't.... It draws to much power for thoes two small batteries, the batteries need to be much stronger maybe by 2017 it will be there maybe with a better smaller controller too
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4. Make the size 6 standard across the line - yes, FX too. It's a minimal cost and weight gain, and significantly improves low end acceleration even on the bikes that will be more quickly limited by battery power (Zero FX, 3 brick S/DS). The bulk cost of the controllers is basically the same for Size 4 and Size 6, and it'll fix the complaints that the bikes are "soft" off the line. Bring the dual-controller powertrain to the SR, and gear it up (25/98) so that there's still a 3s 0-60 and 115+ mph top speed..
2 controllers won't help top speed, the limiter on top speed is the motor by the controller, the motor really needs to spin to 10000 Rpms and be limited to 9000 this would give everyone the speed and cooling they want without using the motor maxed out at full throttle....
Size six on a fx doesn't exist.... And it won't.... It draws to much power for thoes two small batteries, the batteries need to be much stronger maybe by 2017 it will be there maybe with a better smaller controller too
The top speed is improved by a smaller rear sprocket so that motor RPMs are reduced at a given speed. Since you have more battery power and more amps into the motor, you're making more torque so the wheel torque is about the same and the top speed is increased.
Size 6 at low rpm draws less power than size 4 at high rpm. It'll just have to taper faster to limit maximum power draw.
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4. Make the size 6 standard across the line - yes, FX too. It's a minimal cost and weight gain, and significantly improves low end acceleration even on the bikes that will be more quickly limited by battery power (Zero FX, 3 brick S/DS). The bulk cost of the controllers is basically the same for Size 4 and Size 6, and it'll fix the complaints that the bikes are "soft" off the line. Bring the dual-controller powertrain to the SR, and gear it up (25/98) so that there's still a 3s 0-60 and 115+ mph top speed..
2 controllers won't help top speed, the limiter on top speed is the motor by the controller, the motor really needs to spin to 10000 Rpms and be limited to 9000 this would give everyone the speed and cooling they want without using the motor maxed out at full throttle....
Size six on a fx doesn't exist.... And it won't.... It draws to much power for thoes two small batteries, the batteries need to be much stronger maybe by 2017 it will be there maybe with a better smaller controller too
The top speed is improved by a smaller rear sprocket so that motor RPMs are reduced at a given speed. Since you have more battery power and more amps into the motor, you're making more torque so the wheel torque is about the same and the top speed is increased.
Size 6 at low rpm draws less power than size 4 at high rpm. It'll just have to taper faster to limit maximum power draw.
That is true until you change the gearing, then the bigger controller will be pulling more amps than smaller controller to make up for the higher gearing which will take more amps at the lower speed to overcome the high speed gearing (smaller rear) for higher top speed
you will be going faster with the high speed gearing but you won't be able to accelerate even remotely fast and if you do (had 2 piggybacked controllers) you will drink MORE power than the lower gearing and higher spinning motor....
So a better motor is a much better option than 2 controllers.... 2 controllers still give you the same issue too much heat/ to much current through the motor.....
Putting a 98 tooth rear might get you better efficiency and top speed, but you will draw more power (amps) at lower speeds trying to make up for the [high gearing]
If you had a motor that was bigger it would take more but if it could spin fast that is still a much better option.....
No need to lecture me on size six's I've dabbled.... I'm one of the few who's ridden a size six fx..... So I know what real acceleration is like. A size six and high speed gearing on a fx is still slow off the line.... Yes it has a much higher top speed but it won't even accelerate as hard as a stop fx, well until 50mph. Then it comes on strong until 120 ish...
Don't get me wrong I really wish zero would do exactly what you said put a size six on every fx the reality of the situation is the size six is actually a very efficient controller and when you put it up with the bigger motor on the FX the bigger motor is supposed to draw more current but it's also much easier for it with 10 extra foot-pounds to get the bike going and I have not found the size 6 to have any less range than a fx. The extra amount of performance though is astounding it goes from riding a 150 four stroke to riding a 250 2 stroke, the downfall your going to be accelerating like you have huge cahones every time and that will drain your battery decently fast just like flooring the fx will...
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Any of these performance upgrades will require the overheating issues to be resolved. The motor, battery and controller (in that order) are very susceptible to overheating in circuit conditions. Air cooling will never suffice if high performance is required, just like gas bikes.
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Air cooling will never suffice if high performance is required, just like gas bikes.
Actually there's nothing inherently inferior about air cooling. In fact, a "water-cooled" engine simply uses water as a transfer medium to take the heat energy from the motor to the radiator, where it's dumped into the same atmosphere an "air-cooled" engine uses to directly cool the engine. It's demonstrable that an "air-cooled" engine can actually dump heat to the atmosphere faster and more effectively than a "water-cooled" engine.
Water-cooled engines have some advantages: In particular they bring the heat to the airstream instead of the other way around (you can place the radiator right up front in the middle of the air intake of the vehicle), and they offer better temperature control (no over-cooling) because they offer a convenient place to put a thermostat. They can also help quiet an ICE, which isn't an issue for our EVs. But don't buy into the myth that water cooling is inherently superior to air cooling.
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Not buying into any myths just stating that if you want to ride a Zero fast you'll need to go to liquid cooling as the air cooling of the current motor is clearly insufficient for continuous fast riding. Zero might not be able to fix the range limitations of electric bikes but solving overheating issues has been done by Brammo and many others using liquid cooling. Sure there's a small weight penalty but I for one would not buy another Zero until they sort this out.
I believe there are some motor performance improvements coming to the road line for 2016 so we'll have to wait and see whether that includes fixing the overheating issues.
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If you had a motor that spun to 10000, and used it to 9000 this would have never come up,
Instead we use a motor that spins to 6500 unsafely and using it to 6000. Now if you used your sr at 5500 Rpms instead of 6000 do you think you would ever over heat.... Nope. That's all my point is. When you use roughly 80% of the zeros rpm band you would t have issues so having a motor that could spin that fast and using less of it it solve most of the issues
Designing a motor that actually spins that fast successfully is the challenge now....
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Fair point but I would not be willing to up the gearing (more heat) or go any slower down the straights than I am at present!
I guess I figured when I bought my SR last year that all the photos on the website of the bike on the track meant that it was track capable. Unfortunately it's barely able to sustain the performance of a Ninja 300 after 10 minutes and shuts down after less than 20 minutes when the battery overheats with 35% charge remaining.
Sorry for going off topic but this issue will impact on Zero's ability to go into the the performance oriented side of the street and dirt markets and therefore should be a priority for the next few years.
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Fair point but I would not be willing to up the gearing (more heat) or go any slower down the straights than I am at present!
I guess I figured when I bought my SR last year that all the photos on the website of the bike on the track meant that it was track capable. Unfortunately it's barely able to sustain the performance of a Ninja 300 after 10 minutes and shuts down after less than 20 minutes when the battery overheats with 35% charge remaining.
Sorry for going off topic but this issue will impact on Zero's ability to go into the the performance oriented side of the street and dirt markets and therefore should be a priority for the next few years.
That's why I say bigger motor over gearing changes,
And I couldn't agree more!
Performance is a massive part of motorcycling in general, and racing and motorcycles go hand and hand... Hard to have a company and not be ALL for racing... At least a small department or a few dedicated bikes here and there for performance..... I mean that's really all part of r&d and marketing when you can show a cool concept based of what you have or a race bike based of your frame motor battery etc....
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1. More relaxed frame geometry. Trail needs to be increased to stabilize the bike. I've never ridden a bike that takes so much effort to simply hold a line in a turn.
2. Braking. Without engine braking the front brakes need to be good at gradual modulation. 2014 brakes are like an on-off switch. The caliper/mc displacement ratio is wrong.
3. Better seat.
4. Conti tires (150mm rear) stock. The Pirelli's are good tires, but have a pointy profile that make the bike twitchy.
5. Better riding mode settings. In my opinion, sport mode should have no brake regen (because it kicking in is annoying when leaned over) and max engine regen (to simulate engine braking). Somewhat related, when the battery is close to 100% charged the regen kicks in and out, and this causes the bike to feel erratic. Not exactly confidence-inspiring.
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1. Faster mainstream charging. (accessible location too)
2. Lock-ability. (helmet lock, brake lock, seat lock, locking compartments in otherwise empty cowlings)
3. More effective cooling "option" (I don't need it when I buy, I don't care how it is done... but the brand needs it)
4. Programability - (Variable regeneration (by brake intensity and speed), "elite" power settings, power curve "sweet spots").
5. Forward looking battery configuration (it is unnerving to risk being left behind as technology and chemistry changes)
Power Curve sweet spots. User programmable "sweet spot" set at 55mph from which +/- 5 degrees throttle change yields little change, set another at 25. More programmability than a user needs - because once developed the per unit cost is low.
I don't need traction control as a "top 5" I wouldn't use it 99.99999995% of my riding and frankly I didn't really wish I had it those 6 inches either enough to compel anyone to develop it.
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What, no one wants traction control? Should be standard on a bike at this price, and is an essential safety feature for street riding.
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Traction control would be nice for the wet but there would be very few gas bikes with similar power that have traction control.
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What, no one wants traction control? Should be standard on a bike at this price, and is an essential safety feature for street riding.
Very few dinosaur burners have traction control. In fact many riders avoid buying bikes with it fitted because having a computer controlling the throttle is supposedly emasculating or something.
I believe the Sevcon is already capable of certain forms of traction control and the bike has wheel speed sensors fitted for the ABS so theoretically it would be easy to implement.
Do you not remember the outcry of hate from bikers when Honda first put ABS on a fireblade? TC is just as divisive, especially in the very conservative UK bike scene.
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What, no one wants traction control? Should be standard on a bike at this price, and is an essential safety feature for street riding.
Very few dinosaur burners have traction control. In fact many riders avoid buying bikes with it fitted because having a computer controlling the throttle is supposedly emasculating or something.
I believe the Sevcon is already capable of certain forms of traction control and the bike has wheel speed sensors fitted for the ABS so theoretically it would be easy to implement.
Do you not remember the outcry of hate from bikers when Honda first put ABS on a fireblade? TC is just as divisive, especially in the very conservative UK bike scene.
I recall that the 2015 bikes have ABS only on the front wheel, so they're not quite ready for traction control.
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It may be possible to have the Sevcon implement traction control but would require sensing of the rear wheel speed to be fed back to the Controller which could then reduce motor torque if it's outside a certain range ie. it starts spinning up.
I believe that Zero have tried to get traction control working but that the standard Sevcon parameters such as maximum acceleration/ramp rates aren't sufficient because the Sevcon doesn't calculate them in an instantaneous manner.
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You wouldn't need a sensor on the rear wheel because you can already calculate wheel revs based on motor rpm. Assuming the small amount of slop in the belt wouldn't cause a problem.
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I recall that the 2015 bikes have ABS only on the front wheel, so they're not quite ready for traction control.
Well my 2015 SR has ABS on both wheels
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What, no one wants traction control? Should be standard on a bike at this price, and is an essential safety feature for street riding.
If Zero modified the app so I could set regen on sports mode, then I could set custom mode to wet riding conditions - no need for traction control!
Also want to set regen on eco mode too (set to 0% on no throttle and 100% brake on).
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I recall that the 2015 bikes have ABS only on the front wheel, so they're not quite ready for traction control.
Well my 2015 SR has ABS on both wheels
You're right. All 2015 models are specced with Bosch ABS on both wheels.
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All modes including sports can be customised using the Sevcon DVT software so you can set regen, max torque, speed etc to whatever you wish.