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General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: benswing on July 28, 2015, 07:26:37 PM

Title: Victory Empulse
Post by: benswing on July 28, 2015, 07:26:37 PM
Victory will introduce their 2016 lineup tonight at 8:30EST, but it looks like Hot Bike magazine accidentally published their report.  They announced the Victory Empulse TT with a 6 -speed gearbox. 

The link doesn't work any more, but the article was live yesterday. 

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/28/3ad11166e470fbcdfc0d0a03b12c45f6.jpg)


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Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Burton on July 28, 2015, 07:54:18 PM
Did some snooping to see what I could find. Images attached as well as text.

If these statements of top speed are true people might be qualifying their purchase based on if they will be riding on a track or commuting and or riding off road. You want a track bike, you go Empulse, you want an offroad / commuting / sporty road bike you go Zero.

I can't wait to see these things on a track and see what the Zero racers do to challenge them.



2016 Empulse TT from Victory Motorcycles


This is a street legal electric race motorcycle. Built on the same platform that set an American lap-speed record at the Isle of Man, it accelerates up to 100MPH+ and the battery fully charges in 3.5 hours. Where it matters most, the Empulse TT is fast. It is 10,400 watt hours of proof that Victory doesn?t just prove performance, we advance technology. The sport-tuned inverted front forks and adjustable suspension are engineered to provide track-level performance. It has the fastest battery charging speed, greatest lean-angle, and advanced regenerative braking system. Wherever the Empulse goes, it electrifies all audiences.

2015 ISLE OF MAN TT

Where there is no room for error, we proved performance. The Isle of Man TT is the fastest, twistiest, and gutsiest race on two wheels, the perfect location to introduce the world to our electric motorcycle. For 37 miles, we pushed a top speed of 144.34 MPH. We averaged 111.62 MPH. We set the record for an American electric bike, and it was our first attempt. We didn?t just prove that we belong; we stepped up on the podium, and proudly waved the flag of modern American muscle.

THE FASTEST CHARGING BATTERY ON THE MARKET

The Empulse?s battery fully recharges in 3.5 hours, and up to 80% in two hours. With a battery capacity of 10,400 watt hours, the Empulse TT can achieve up to 140 miles of range per charge. Advanced regenerative braking returns power to the battery every time you let off the throttle, and all this battery technology comes with a 5-year warranty. No matter how you measure it, this is the best performing electric motorcycle battery on the road.

100+ MPH TOP SPEED.SHORTEST STOPPING DISTANCE. GREATEST LEAN ANGLE. RIDER-SELECTABLE SPORT MODE.

You can take the motorcycle off the racetrack, but you can?t take the race out of this motorcycle. The innovative drive train is designed specifically to maximize power delivery and speed, while the dual Radial Mount Brembo brakes bring all that power to a quick stop. The high performance adjustable rear suspension and sport tuned inverted front forks let the rider attack every corner, so no matter where the road turns, you can drag a knee. ??

Specifications
2016 Victory Empulse TT
MSRP: Starting at $19,999 USD
Engine
Type Internal Permanent Magnet AC Induction
Peak Motor Power 54 hp
PEAK TORQUE 61 ft-lbs
TRANSMISSION 6-speed gearbox with multi-plate, hydraulic activated wet clutch
BATTERY Brammo Power Lithium Ion
CHARGE TIME 2.0 hrs (Level I / 20 to 80% SOC) 3.5 hrs (Level II / 0 to 100% SOC) 8.0 hrs (Level I / 0 to 100% SOC)
EMISSIONS None
MAX SPEED 100+ mph / 161 km/h
DRY WEIGHT 460 lbs / 213 kg

Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Richard230 on July 28, 2015, 07:59:32 PM
The new Victory Empulse sounds and looks kind of familiar.  I expected a little more from Victory than "badge engineering".  But this approach should be good for current Brammo Empulse owners who were worried about long-term parts and service support.

And what ever happened to the "Victory Charger"?   ???
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Doug S on July 28, 2015, 08:30:59 PM
I expected a little more from Victory than "badge engineering".

It's their first year, they haven't even had any time to do any engineering work on it yet. I expect a fair number of changes in the next few years, building on the solid base Brammo's created.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: roma258 on July 29, 2015, 01:20:47 AM
I expected a little more from Victory than "badge engineering".

It's their first year, they haven't even had any time to do any engineering work on it yet. I expect a fair number of changes in the next few years, building on the solid base Brammo's created.
This exactly. Plus moar parts for current Brammo owners, yay!!
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: frodus on July 29, 2015, 08:12:26 AM
Plus, did you see their ev atv they launched at the same time?

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Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ranga on July 29, 2015, 08:42:18 AM
Well here it is, the first production electric motorcycle from an established manufacturer. It's an exact duplicate as the Empulse R, save for a slightly better battery and about 10 more miles of advertised range (not mentioned in their website, but in other articles).  I suspected they would have to leave it very much unchanged if they were to keep their word on releasing it by the end of the year. 

That said, I'm a little disappointed they kept the same headlight.  I understand the plight of startups like Zero and Brammo having to use off the shelf parts, but I expected more from Victory.

Also, it's embarrassing that Brammo actually reposted the premature article, then deleted it and had the website take it down.  Their marketing used to be their strongest asset.

Anyways, this is the moment Zero has been prepping for since their inception.  An SR with similar range and performance has the victory beat by $4000, but Victory has a much wider dealer network and better customer service, and will produce as many, if not more bikes.  2016 will be interesting.

http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/electric/empulse-tt-titanium-silver-havasu-red/specs (http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/electric/empulse-tt-titanium-silver-havasu-red/specs)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: firepower on July 29, 2015, 03:27:11 PM
I just hope they bring it to Australia, Zero needs more competition in the market to make pricing equal to global pricing. Good to see Empulse return.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Justin Andrews on July 29, 2015, 03:57:53 PM
Really good to see the Empulse return, hopefully it will find a good home with Victory.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ranga on July 29, 2015, 10:38:10 PM
I completely forgot about the Europe ABS requirement next year. The Empulse still doesn't have it, and Europe has represented more or less 50% of the sales for Zero and Brammo.  I wonder if Victory will try to use a technicality like classifying it as <125cc or using their limited production as a reason to be exempt from this.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Richard230 on July 30, 2015, 04:14:08 AM
Ride Apart picked up the story:  https://rideapart.com/articles/victory-motorcycles-fully-electric-empulse-tt-photo-gallery
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: benswing on July 30, 2015, 12:30:29 PM
Should spellcheck that first sentence...

Looks like Polaris made an accusation of Brammo.  I thought they would get along better.

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/29/cfea00500ff9b614ba341bf0f4e5d701.jpg)


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Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Justin Andrews on July 30, 2015, 12:33:54 PM
That's just... sloppy.
Young journalists these days.  ::)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: teddillard on July 30, 2015, 05:31:20 PM
In the words of a good friend of mine, "fucking smellcheck".
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Richard230 on July 30, 2015, 08:33:01 PM
 I think Motorcycle.com has published the best review of the Victory Empulse so far: 

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: domingo3 on July 31, 2015, 02:16:52 AM
I  glad this was released.  Since Victory's acquisition of Brammo, I had been using it as one excuse (of many) to postpone buying a Zero.  I was hoping that since Polaris had been working with Brammo for a few years, they'd have some backroom design that they'd be ready to throw out with little public notice.  Instead, not much has changed, and I especially note that I do not fit their profile:

Quote
He told us Victory is looking for Tony Stark-type figures as rider candidates, Iron Man types representing a tech-savvy, status-driven, thrill-seeker who enjoys collecting interesting toys.

Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ron Sindric on August 02, 2015, 08:51:06 PM
A thought about the VICTORY e-Bike.  Their EMPULSE TT was rumored about at the last PROGRESSIVE SHOW WINTER 2014 and now here it is !  This is their first attempt.  I'll give them a few years to come out with something that is all electric, innovative and looks more like a TRIUMPH BONNEVILLE.  But, I might settle for an Agility Global SAIETTA R http://saiettagroup.com/ (http://saiettagroup.com/) or even a Brutus V2 Rocket (http://Brutus V2 Rocket) or Brutus 2 http://www.brutusmotorcycle.com/ (http://www.brutusmotorcycle.com/) .  Electric is here to stay.  Time to get some e-choices as well as companies that sell aftermarket e-bike accessories !!!
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Richard230 on August 03, 2015, 04:35:38 AM
Still, it is not going to be easy to sell electric vehicles.  I just heard on the news that gas prices are predicted to fall in the near future to near record low levels. Soon they will be giving the stuff away.   ::)  Meanwhile my electric rates keep going up......   :o
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ranga on August 03, 2015, 08:19:34 AM
Still, it is not going to be easy to sell electric vehicles.  I just heard on the news that gas prices are predicted to fall in the near future to near record low levels. Soon they will be giving the stuff away.   ::)  Meanwhile my electric rates keep going up......   :o

That is assuming you bought the vehicle to save money. Electric cars and motorcycles are still at the price point where breaking even in the vehicle's lifetime is unrealistic. Most customers realize this, and I pity those that don't.  Hybrids will suffer, because they are bought to save money on gas.  And although the performance has become exceptional, most electrics still lag behind gas vehicles of the same price.

No, our purchase was one purpose only, the same reason why BMW and Hummer owners justify theirs; personal expression.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Doug S on August 03, 2015, 09:24:19 AM
Electric cars and motorcycles are still at the price point where breaking even in the vehicle's lifetime is unrealistic.

I wouldn't go QUITE so far as that. I actually ran a spreadsheet before I bought my 2014 SR, and I calculated that the bike would pay for itself in four years of not commuting in my car. Granted, that's a car vs. motorcycle comparison, and my commute is pretty much ideal in favor of the bike -- 50 miles round-trip daily.

I'd bet if you ran the same sort of comparison between, say, a Tesla and a BMW, you'd come to a fairly similar finding. My conclusion is that EVs can just barely make financial sense in some favorable circumstances, and they're not TOO far off from making sense in more mainstream uses.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Richard230 on August 03, 2015, 08:04:17 PM
And I say that EVs will only make sense to the U.S. mainstream vehicle customer when gas prices go above $5 a gallon - which doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon. 
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: benswing on August 03, 2015, 08:22:04 PM
And I say that EVs will only make sense to the U.S. mainstream vehicle customer when gas prices go above $5 a gallon - which doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon.
Oil countries won't let that happen, however once EV sticker prices match gas cars, and the range+charging let's people do occasional road trips, I think we'll see a shift regardless of gas prices.  Only time will tell.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ranga on August 03, 2015, 09:10:36 PM
And I say that EVs will only make sense to the U.S. mainstream vehicle customer when gas prices go above $5 a gallon - which doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon.
Oil countries won't let that happen

OPEC spent decades deliberately price fixing the oil supply.  $6.00 a gallon is commonplace in Europe, where the tax code is enough to actually cover the cost of their infrastructure.  http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/26/federal-gas-tax-read-this/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/26/federal-gas-tax-read-this/)
 
The recent drop in price is due to cheap American oil from hydro fracking, and is only because OPEC allowed/failed to price fix again.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Doug S on August 03, 2015, 09:51:56 PM
I don't put gas in my car much any more (thanks Zero!), but the last three times I filled up I paid over $4.00, then something like $2.40, then recently well over $4.00 again. Maybe my experience is skewed by sheer infrequency, but if I had to pick a phrase to describe gasoline prices, I'd pick "extremely volatile".

Meanwhile, here in San Diego, my "Tier 1" electrical rate, with all charges, credits, etc. is 17.4c per kWh. That's gone up a little in the past few years, but not all that much. Interestingly, gasoline contains 33kWh per gallon of energy, so the equivalent rate is about $5.74 per "gallon equivalent" of electricity, assuming I don't go over my baseline (which I don't, except when it gets really hot and I run the AC). Gasoline is actually cheaper per kWh, at least here in my area.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: oregonrider89 on August 03, 2015, 10:13:58 PM
For Victory, from a business perspective, this "quiet" market entry makes sense: use up existing inventory, assess interest among dealers, minimal R&D costs. Why not? They will make improvements in the coming years but this is a logical start.

I think this is great news for Brammo owners everywhere and a positive sign that support will continue.

Personally I think Victory detracted from the aesthetics with the 90's color scheme but that is my opinion and I would not buy this motorcycle anyway due to the trans/clutch and chain. I do, however, love the charging options (Zero take notes).

As far as the discussion about economic sense of electrics: I think the break even is much lower than what I have seen reported by others. Real world break even for me with a 2015 SR versus my BMW R1100GS is about three years at 10,000 miles per year, call it 30,000 miles. Granted the BMW is an old motorcycle but I do all my own service work (thereby saving thousands and thousands of dollars) and it is what I have to compare against.

To anybody thinking of getting an electric: take the plunge, you will be glad you did.

Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Chocula on August 03, 2015, 10:43:26 PM
Do the math on a Chevy Spark EV or vs a comparably equipped gas version.  Unfortunately it is not available everywhere yet but after incentives, the purchase price is well within what the average (12,000 miles per year) driver will spend on gas.  Factor in maintenance costs and it looks even better for the EV.

There have been recent lease deals on the Fiat 500E for $89 / month with $0 down after incentives.  The gas savings alone make the payment on that.

Unfortunately, many of the cars are not yet widely available and the incentives are needed to make them financial advantageous.  Fortunately, they are becoming more widely availing, pricing is coming down, and we do have incentives available.  Depending on where you live, EV's can have a lower TCO now.

As for motorcycles, if TCO were the primary motivator, we would all drive used Ninja 250's or scooters.

Chocula
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: kensiko on August 03, 2015, 11:28:33 PM
Here it does make sense to buy electric, price is 0.08 CAD$ per kWh.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Erasmo on August 04, 2015, 04:06:48 AM
Quote
THE FASTEST CHARGING BATTERY ON THE MARKET
Nope. The Energica is faster.

As for motorcycles, if TCO were the primary motivator, we would all drive used Ninja 250's or scooters.
Those are exactly the kind of bikes that you mainly see in large European cities.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: RickXB on August 04, 2015, 09:04:19 AM
Here it does make sense to buy electric, price is 0.08 CAD$ per kWh.
,0568 CAD$ for the first 30kwh/day (15-20 kw average during summer) & 1,40$/Liter for 91 Octane gas. Really make sense actually!
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: KrazyEd on August 04, 2015, 09:23:24 AM
Keep in mind that your ICE engine is only about 30% efficient.
Then, you lose through the transmission, the driveline, the axle, etc.
Plus routine maintenance. The electric motor is probably 3 times
as efficient, plus much loss through the direct drive of the belt.
Hardly a wash.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Richard230 on August 04, 2015, 08:29:40 PM
You can say anything you want about lack of maintenance, efficiency, etc. etc.  But all the typical vehicle owner in the U.S. cares about is the cost of gas and its easy availability.  I went through the "gas crisis" during the 1970's and you should have seen the panic in the streets from people trying to buy gas. If electric vehicles were being sold at that time, no company could make them fast enough to satisfy demand.  Even mopeds and scooters were selling to auto owners (who had no idea how to ride) like hotcakes. That was the first time I ever saw Consumer Reports do an evaluation of motorcycles and scooters in their magazine (I think they tested one of the Honda automatic transmission models).  Of course once gas became available again, all of those scooters and mopeds headed into the back yard to start their future careers as piles of rust.   ::)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: frodus on August 04, 2015, 09:13:43 PM
You can say anything you want about lack of maintenance, efficiency, etc. etc.  But all the typical vehicle owner in the U.S. cares about is the cost of gas and its easy availability.

That's an interesting statement (and I do agree at least in my case), but almost all of the complaints between the Brammo and Zero seem to boil down to the Brammo being perceived as more maintenance and less efficient. When it comes to owning the bike, I mostly care about how cheap it is to drive. Efficiency loss for transmission is negligible and can be offset by changing to a different gear (one to put the motor in a more efficient RPM), and maintenance is a quick drain and refill of 1 quart of oil once every few thousand miles, which is no biggy for me.

I guess I'm a typical rider, and neither of those items matter at all to me, just the cost and ease of driving.

Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Doug S on August 04, 2015, 09:59:58 PM
Here it does make sense to buy electric, price is 0.08 CAD$ per kWh.

To my way of thinking, that's just one piece of the puzzle, and not a very big one. Even here in San Diego, where I'm paying 0.174 per kWh, "fuel" costs just don't amount to much. I pointed out earlier that I'm paying more for electricity than I'd pay for the energy equivalent of gasoline, but there's no ICE vehicle that can get 230 MPGe on the freeway, 460 on city streets, so my fuel costs are very low -- so low, in fact that I'm paying more for tires (just about to get my second new rear tire fitted at 17,200 miles) than I'm paying for electricity. Fuel costs are totally down in the mud. Even lower fuel costs wouldn't reduce my total cost of riding noticeably.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Burton on August 04, 2015, 11:08:45 PM
Here it does make sense to buy electric, price is 0.08 CAD$ per kWh.

Your savings isn't in fuel, if it is I feel for you. 99% of your savings over any ICE bike will be maintenance costs; even if you do all the work yourself. If you are honest with yourself and value your time you will find the bike will pay for itself after 4 or 5 years if you ride 50 miles 5 days a week to work over an ICE bike.

How many people thought last year "I am going to buy this bike because it is going to save me on gas," instead of "I am going to be this bike because it speaks to me and is fun to ride?" An electric bike will do both and it will spoil you so much you will be wondering why you didn't switch earlier.

I use to "poo poo" electrics till I took an objective look at them and made my own cost analysis spreadsheet and the "return" I got back from getting the electric goes way beyond what my spreadsheet said it would be. How many ICE bikes do you get on and grin each time you ride because it is so fun to ride you can't help it?
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: KrazyEd on August 04, 2015, 11:50:07 PM
A Few years ago when the Lightning was at Laguna Seca, I asked them about a transmission.
He said that he could roll the throttle at 150 mph and bring up the front wheel. Why would
he want one.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: frodus on August 05, 2015, 05:04:59 AM
A Few years ago when the Lightning was at Laguna Seca, I asked them about a transmission.
He said that he could roll the throttle at 150 mph and bring up the front wheel. Why would
he want one.

He wouldn't, for 1 reason: They have a Remy HVH 250 motor, a high power Rinehart controller and high power battery.

Its the same reason Brammo has a fixed ratio on their race bike, the motor and battery pack are powerful enough.

If you had a gas engine, such that it could go from 0-150mph in one gear (of course you'd still retain a clutch) and remain in its power band most of the time, you wouldn't think it'd need a transmission either. My buddy's R1 can do 90 in first. Does he need a transmission? With your reasoning, maybe he doesn't. So why does it need one?

I recall that the reason that Brammo chose the Transmission is so they could gain some performance (with the same motor) by adding a transmission because you can put the motor into its power band whenever you want. Motors have an HP curve, so on either end your HP falls off. With a transmission, you can peak your HP in every gear. You could be fast off the line, and also get to 110MPH quickly. With one ratio, you could gear for 110, but have slower acceleration at low speeds. As another benefit, you can help offset the loss in efficiency due to transmission by changing gears so you stay in the "happy place". With one ratio, you're stuck with lower efficiency at RPM's outside of the efficiency curve of the motor being used.

I'd be fine with or without a transmission. I would appreciate the simplicity I'm sure, but I do also enjoy the transmission performance/efficiency benefits above. I do like to keep at 4K RPM at my cruising speeds, whether its 25, 45 or 60mph, to try and get the highest efficiency out of it. I did an unofficial test once. After a full charge, I ran the bike until about 95% SOC. In one test, I stuck in 3rd gear and ran the bike. Then I ran for 5 miles along the same route, trying to keep my acceleration similar. I didn't gun it, got to speed with traffic, cruised at the speed limit, etc. Then I did the same, but used 2 through 5 gears like normal. I was able to have 1-2% higher SOC when I returned home over the previous test. Again, not official, and not that much, but its there. But again, I'd be fine with or without. It doesn't really matter a huge amount to me.

For me:
I think the Zero is pretty ugly
I think the quality of the parts have been below what riders expected
I find the number of glitches in the BMS/VCU/Controller to be bothersome
I wanted L2 charging, without having to buy more stuff

I basically had my choice between both of them at a very similar cost (My Brammo was a Press bike), and went with the one that I felt was higher quality, better looking and came with a better charger. If the Zero had those, I'd have gone with a Zero, but it didn't. Transmission never came into my mind when justifying one over the other.


Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Richard230 on August 05, 2015, 06:28:01 AM
The perfect IC motorcycle for using direct drive is the Boss Hog.   :o That bike's motor will get the job done.   ;)  But would you want to own one?   ::)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ranga on August 05, 2015, 10:56:46 AM
A Few years ago when the Lightning was at Laguna Seca, I asked them about a transmission.
He said that he could roll the throttle at 150 mph and bring up the front wheel. Why would
he want one.

He wouldn't, for 1 reason: They have a Remy HVH 250 motor, a high power Rinehart controller and high power battery.

Its the same reason Brammo has a fixed ratio on their race bike, the motor and battery pack are powerful enough.

If you had a gas engine, such that it could go from 0-150mph in one gear (of course you'd still retain a clutch) and remain in its power band most of the time, you wouldn't think it'd need a transmission either. My buddy's R1 can do 90 in first. Does he need a transmission? With your reasoning, maybe he doesn't. So why does it need one?

I recall that the reason that Brammo chose the Transmission is so they could gain some performance (with the same motor) by adding a transmission because you can put the motor into its power band whenever you want. Motors have an HP curve, so on either end your HP falls off. With a transmission, you can peak your HP in every gear. You could be fast off the line, and also get to 110MPH quickly. With one ratio, you could gear for 110, but have slower acceleration at low speeds. As another benefit, you can help offset the loss in efficiency due to transmission by changing gears so you stay in the "happy place". With one ratio, you're stuck with lower efficiency at RPM's outside of the efficiency curve of the motor being used.

I'd be fine with or without a transmission. I would appreciate the simplicity I'm sure, but I do also enjoy the transmission performance/efficiency benefits above.

Frodos, this isn't anything personal against you, more of an expression of chronic annoyance with the people who believe Brammo's marketing bullsh argue for the merits of the transmission.  Those who believe that a 6 speed transmission is necessary for optimal acceleration and top speed have had their heads buried in the sand since 2013, and are ignorant of the existence of the Zero SR.

I don't believe Brammo has ever published 0-60 times, but cycleworld found the 2013 Empulse R to accomplish it in 4.8 seconds. http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/31/brammo-empulse-r-vs-zero-s-electric-motorcycles-comparison-test-specs-photos/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/31/brammo-empulse-r-vs-zero-s-electric-motorcycles-comparison-test-specs-photos/) The SR has a claimed acceleration of 3.3 seconds, and has been confirmed by customers to be well under 4.  Considering the minimalist nature of the changes Brammo made over the years, its hard to believe they ever got it down that far, but for the sake of this comparison, we'll assume off-the-line acceleration is comparable. This, plus the fact that their advertised top speeds are nearly identical cresting 100mph, means the SR is living proof that the transmission is dead weight.

The problem for Brammo was that they started out with relatively weak batteries and a weak motor (as did Zero back then). Under these conditions, it is true that they would have had to decide between top speed and acceleration with the gearing. But instead of addressing the problem, Brammo's engineering and management decided to mask the symptoms.  First they tried to develop a 2 speed transmission as Tesla originally tried. Failing that, they implemented a standardized ICE transmission; a mistake no other electric vehicle manufacturer has made.

Had they addressed the problem and dedicated their engineering efforts to gradually improving battery performance or designing a motor of their own as Zero did, the Empulse would have been launched on time and much closer to the originally advertised price. They might even be still making their own bikes today. The fact they have dedicated their marketing to promote misinformation about electric motors and use talkingpoints like "it keeps it in the sweet spot" turns this mistake into denial and feeds lies to people looking for honest information.

I am confused as to why this conversation is still ongoing. We can theorize from our armchairs all we want, but one test is worth a thousand expert opinions. The experiment has been performed and the results are conclusive.  The SR has identical if not better acceleration and top speed, has more range and all for less money.  I believe Zero's ABS matches Brammo's duel front rotors enough for the average customer. The only drawback is that the SR's footpegs prevent it from cornering as well meaning it will never be as competitive on a race course, but this has no bearing in a conversation about powertrains.  This is a tired argument, and it needs to end.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Chocula on August 05, 2015, 12:07:16 PM
A few months back I wrote:
Quote
I test rode the 2014 Zero S and the 2014 Brammo Empluse R back to back.  My preference for the Brammo was in large part the suspension, brakes, on board charger, and the transmission.  I found the riding experience to be more enjoyable on the Brammo, though the performance, lower sound level, and lower maintenance of the 2015 Zero SR had some appeal.  Others will have different priorities and many will choose different bikes.
This is still true, I have no regrets having chosen the Empluse R and I would not trade it for a new 2015 Zero SR if given the option.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ranga on August 05, 2015, 07:18:16 PM
A few months back I wrote:
Quote
I test rode the 2014 Zero S and the 2014 Brammo Empluse R back to back.  My preference for the Brammo was in large part the suspension, brakes, on board charger, and the transmission.  I found the riding experience to be more enjoyable on the Brammo, though the performance, lower sound level, and lower maintenance of the 2015 Zero SR had some appeal.  Others will have different priorities and many will choose different bikes.
This is still true, I have no regrets having chosen the Empluse R and I would not trade it for a new 2015 Zero SR if given the option.

If your argument for getting a Brammo is that it corners better, has L2 charging or had better suspension before '15, I'll give that to you.  If you bought it during the firesale when it was cheaper, it was a risky decision but I'll give it to you.  And if your argument for the transmission is that you enjoy running through the gears, I can't argue with your personal preference. My plight is with those that claim the transmission makes it faster or more efficient than a single speed bike with the same size 6 controller and similar price, because it doesn't. (also, I'm assuming you test rode a '14 SR, because comparing an Empulse R to a S based on personal feel seems foolish to me.)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: frodus on August 05, 2015, 07:46:27 PM
From my experience and in talking to other riders and racers.... the bikes are all in all about the same for acceleration and speed, as proven by very close race times over the past several years. Is it needed? No. Zero and brammo chose different paths to achieve the same result. Zero chose a larger higher torque motor with the same horsepower. Brammo chose a smaller water cooled motor with the same horsepower and a transmission.

Does it matter? Not to me.

The low quality of the zero overall and the ugliness swayed me more than anything. Range wasn't a choice when I bought mine, the SR and power pack weren't available to me in the beginning of 2013.

Transmission didn't matter, still doesn't matter and I agree, people should stop bitching about it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Cortezdtv on August 05, 2015, 08:04:12 PM
To me a tranny shouldn't be used; you would be better off with a "overdrive" unit that you toggle on like the zombie222 car.... Honestly best tranny idea for a electric vehicle yet.....


This year at refuel.    Zero and brammo were pretty even

In fact zeros had thermal issues running flat out with the short gearing; where as the brammos also ran into issues, one had issues (I can't recall what) and the other blew a tranny.... So they both have their flaws

Pick your poisen
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Richard230 on August 05, 2015, 08:05:50 PM
I spoke to a Zero engineer about the time that Brammo announced that the Empulse would have a transmission and asked him why Zero didn't go in that direction.  He told me that the main reason was expense, followed by the components taking up space that could be used for additional batteries and therefore range.  He felt that the market (at the time that the decision was made) was looking for a lower price and greater range.  I gather that the then recent story of Tesla's transmission failure may also have helped solidify their decision to go with direct drive.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: CrashCash on August 06, 2015, 06:44:34 AM
Transmission didn't matter, still doesn't matter and I agree, people should stop bitching about it.
The transmission matters to me because shifting sucks. After the test rides on both makes, the main factor that drove me away from the Brammo was the transmission.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Doug S on August 06, 2015, 06:56:35 AM
When I first started looking at electric bikes, I was drawn to the Brammo. It was water-cooled, it had a transmission and a clutch, it just seemed like a more thoroughly engineered solution (and yes, I'm an Engineer). But then I realized that the Zero is lighter, has less maintenance (no oil changes or coolant flushes), it can't leak (except for brake fluid or shock absorber fluid), and has a lot fewer parts to fail.

On the rare occasion the motor on my bike heats up, I wish I had the water-cooling, but other than that I think I made the right choice, at least for me. Simpler sometimes really is better.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: firepower on August 06, 2015, 11:01:07 AM
Zero cooling could easily be improved. It is using passive heatsink. Think back to 486 and  Pentium CPU technology. Look how far heatsink technology had evolved for modern CPU. 
They should be using ducted force cooling. Faster bike goes more air it gets. They could also use heat pipes to transfer heat to more efficient heatsinks mounted in the air flow or sides of the bike.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: teddillard on August 06, 2015, 04:25:09 PM
I recall that the reason that Brammo chose the Transmission is so they could gain some performance (with the same motor) by adding a transmission because you can put the motor into its power band whenever you want.

I "recall", um, and by that I mean have actual reference to discussions and quotes, ;) that there was a serious problem with the original Empulse overheating, which was one of the reasons the bike was delayed.  At that point the possibilities came down to running a bigger motor, or working with a transmission, for the reasons you point out, Travis. 

I also "recall" that Bramsher said that they were going to opt for a transmission primarily because they wanted to give the rider a familiar experience, and felt that it would help transition customers to electric with the 6-speed.  This was all in the marketing info on the site and in interviews. 

Now, what you believe to be the rationale and reasoning behind those two points is up to you - whatever Brammo cares (or cared) to spin. 

Any claim to a significant advantage of a transmission is just silly at this point, considering the actual data we have.  Minor advantages or disadvantages?  Sure, haggle away on your personal preferences, but if it comes down to "does a bike need one to go fast?"  Clearly not.

...and do I think this will be the last word on this discussion?  Heavens, no.  :D

Now, what is going to be interesting is if Victory decides to either stick with the transmission in future models or dump it.  Guessing at what they're thinking, they have two bikes, the street bike and the race bike, one with, and one without a transmission.  It's easy enough to repackage the street bike and see how it does with their market, and in a short time offer a bike without a transmission.  In terms of Brammo's sales, however, that's a significant amount of market research already completed, and it's not a compelling conclusion.  In any case, it's going to get interesting. 

Add to that, Harley has been recruiting a few friends of mine pretty hard...  ;)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: teddillard on August 06, 2015, 04:30:47 PM
Zero cooling could easily be improved.

...minor point on this, because I've looked into it.  Yes, cooling could be improved, but you've got to consider the cost in both money and weight/complexity and ask if it's worth it.  I'd say, with simple passive air cooling and the performance they're getting, it's not worth it. 
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: protomech on August 06, 2015, 07:04:01 PM
Zero cooling could easily be improved.

...minor point on this, because I've looked into it.  Yes, cooling could be improved, but you've got to consider the cost in both money and weight/complexity and ask if it's worth it.  I'd say, with simple passive air cooling and the performance they're getting, it's not worth it.
For street applications with light sport riding, I think you are right. I suspect some of the problems with bikes overheating easily have been poorly calibrated temperature sensors. Numerous owners have observed the bike motor temperature display reading 15+ degrees higher than ambient when turning the bike on in the morning.

For heavier sport riding or track applications, they definitely need an enhanced cooling option, whether forced air, oil-filled motor, or pumping liquid through a radiator. Most owners perhaps wouldn't choose it - I wouldn't - but it'd be nice to see as a factory option.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: frodus on August 06, 2015, 07:39:46 PM
Thatay be true Ted, I'm just going off what Brian has said on the brammo forums about it all and I don't recall him ever mentioning overheating. I'm glad I've not ever gotten any overheating issues at least!

Anyway, as I said, it mattered not to me in my decision making process. The quality, looks and charger swayed me.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Doug S on August 06, 2015, 08:15:38 PM
...with simple passive air cooling and the performance they're getting, it's not worth it.

I think Zero's a long ways from optimized regarding their air-cooling. If you look at air-cooled airplane engines, they all do a fair amount of work to get the airflow between the fins tweaked out -- cowling shape, air in/output ports, ducting and guides to deflect as much air as possible over the cylinder and head fins. I'm a member of a home-built airplane email chain and cooling airflow management is always a huge topic of conversation. Zero doesn't even bother installing a couple of plastic pieces to route air over their motor. I'd bet they could double or even triple the amount of cooling they get at speed with very little effort and insignificant aerodynamic drag.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ranga on August 06, 2015, 10:15:19 PM
The side fairings are actually designed to guide airflow over the motor. And I do remember that way way back, the first version of the X had fan and duct system in the tail forcing air over the Agni motor.  it was removed for cost and weight.

(http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2014/small/s/studio-detail/2014_zero-s_detail_chin-fairing_1680x1200_press.jpg)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ron Sindric on August 07, 2015, 07:13:48 AM
BRAMMO  and  ZERO ( Agility SAietta ? ).  With two or three e-bikes in the market arena, the operant word is COMPETITION !  If there are choices for the end user, this will force the manufacturers to use their R&D and Engineering departments to produce products better ( and cheaper ) than the competition.  This is a WIN - WIN situation for those of us who ride e-bikes.

Does anybody have any experience with ZEV quasi-e-scooters

http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/ (http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/)

OK, they look like scooters, but if you look at their specs they compare favorably with ZERO  and  BRAMMO BIKES.

For those who want highway "boats", there is always the HARLEY-STYLE e-bikes from BRUTUS

http://www.brutusmotorcycle.com[/center]] (http://[center)
http://www.brutusmotorcycle.com
[/url]

Has anyone ridden ( or even seen for that matter ) one of these?

How long will it be before we have a universal battery system so a "fueling station" would just swap out batteries instead of recharging them.  How 'bout inductive pick-ups to provide bike power on INTERSTATES ( sort of like the DRAYSON B12/69 recharges ) to cut down on "refueling" stops ?

My personal e-bike e-DREAM ---> a battery system that allows me to go 500 miles at 70 mph between charges, and that recharges from 220 vDC in less than two hours.  Oh yeah, the bike with my Dream Battery would be hyper-reliable, hyper low maintenance, and cost less than $8000.00 ::)
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Erasmo on August 07, 2015, 04:49:24 PM
It's lovely to see the difference between those two companies. On has a simple site with no-nonsene motorscooters and the other very slick marketing site promises to transform you in an ''Urban hero'' on your ''Road Warrior''.

This actually cracked me up:
Quote
The V9 is the only full-size, full-power motorcycle worthy of the name Brutus.
So the other motorcycles from your brand are their brand name not worthy? ;D

I'm afraid battery swapping more serious than a FX wil never happen, an electric bike is built around the battery. And with DC charging you should be able to fill about any vehicle in 20-30 minutes regardless of battery size.
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Ron Sindric on August 07, 2015, 09:23:28 PM
Quick Question,

Has anyone here in the States seen, got up-close-and-personal / touched a SAIETTA electric bike?  ???

http://saiettagroup.com/[/b]]http://saiettagroup.com/ (http://[b)

Does anyone know of a SAIETTA dealer here in the US ?
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: teddillard on August 08, 2015, 01:08:21 AM
For heavier sport riding or track applications, they definitely need an enhanced cooling option, whether forced air, oil-filled motor, or pumping liquid through a radiator. Most owners perhaps wouldn't choose it - I wouldn't - but it'd be nice to see as a factory option.

You gotta do the math, and some serious testing to be able to conclude that.  Compare taking a stock motor, adding degrees of cooling (sorry, bad pun), seeing what the increased load capabilities are, compare that to simply running a larger motor, compare that to the weight, complexity and load additions of running cooling systems. 

You also have to understand where the heat comes from.  Hint: it' ain't the outside of the case, where your cooling fins are. :D

Ever since I learned about the losses you start getting when the motor gets hot, it's seemed like a mystery why motor designers don't build more cooling into them, but like everything else engineering, there are tradeoffs left and right.  No doubt the optimum is something like what we're seeing from Energica, with motor and controller active liquid cooling, but that adds complexity and expense.  I, for one, think Zero is spot-on with their solution. 

Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: teddillard on August 08, 2015, 01:10:29 AM
That may be true Ted, I'm just going off what Brian has said on the brammo forums about it all and I don't recall him ever mentioning overheating. I'm glad I've not ever gotten any overheating issues at least

There was no public statement by Brammo or anyone from Brammo that overheating was a problem, but it is pretty common knowledge.  And please note, this was the earlier Empulse, not any model that you might have been able to buy. 
Title: Re: Victory Empulse
Post by: Erasmo on August 08, 2015, 03:22:27 AM
Quick Question,

Has anyone here in the States seen, got up-close-and-personal / touched a SAIETTA electric bike?  ???

http://saiettagroup.com/[/b]]http://saiettagroup.com/ (http://[b)

Does anyone know of a SAIETTA dealer here in the US ?
Bikers POV made a few videos about it but he is based in the UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPpYvX71ZDA& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPpYvX71ZDA&)