ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: PhreaK on June 11, 2015, 07:42:56 PM
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So, I've run into a little bit of an issue unique to EV's. My 2014 SR won't ummm... turn off.
To clarify, this isn't a 'I removed the key and the headlight is still on' type scenario, this is a 'the bike has been off and the key in my back pocket for the past 15 minutes, yet everything is still on and I can still just turn off the kill switch and ride to my hearts content' situation. From what I can see, I'm not doing anything stupid and it does appear to de-power properly after 20-30 minutes, however not the best for a bike that will be regularly parked on the street.
This is on a second hand 2014 SR I've literally just picked up (arrived today after being freighted across the country). It's still under factory warranty and I have contacted Zero and the local dealer, however has anyone else run into this or anything similar?
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I never saw this on my 2012 Zero, or on my 2015 Zero, but it happened once on my Vectrix. After trying to cycle the bike on and off with the key (without success) I found that when I plugged the bike in, as if to start charging, the bike reset itself and I could then unplug the bike and all was well. It hasn't happened again since then.
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Does this always happen? Or was this the first time you ever started it up so you don't know.
I would look at the wire loom coming from the ignition switch. Not sure if the wires are identical in color as they are on my 2013 bike but you could probably "turn the bike off" by simply disconnecting the ignition from the wire loom. If this doesn't work then there is another issue outside of the ignition being bad.
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It's still early days when it comes to diagnostics. I'm going to dive into it a bit more tomorrow and see what I can do to form steps to reproduce - it's late over here and have been flat out all day. Power cycling does not rectify, but have not tried plugging into charge yet (nowhere to charge at home, ah, the joys of apartment living).
The bike has just been freighted interstate so wouldn't be surprised if something has come loose. I'll break out the multimeter tomorrow and narrow it down to either a software or hardware fault.
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Always try cycling they key a few times
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Could this be a problem with the "contactor" not disengaging? Maybe it needs a sharp tap with a hammer to get it back to normal? ;)
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I had the bike stay on with the key off - 2012XU.
Details on experiences with that bike are here - http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3504.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3504.0)
Turned out to be the DC-DC converter.
If you disconnect your ignition switch from the loom & the lights stay on, that might be your answer. If it's the same DC-DC converter as on the 2012XU (anyone know?) I can dig up the emails I had form a Zero tech to diagnose that as the fault, if you need it.
hth
Peter
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Had the same thing happen to my Empulse when it was new, after riding in the rain. Ended up being a leaky connector near the ignition. Some gaffer tape around the connectors and dielectric grease fixed the problem.
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1989.msg15475#msg15475 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1989.msg15475#msg15475)
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Btw did the previous owner have this problem? This is a second hand 2014 bike? Do you know why was it sold?
Peter
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Oh man, the saga continues. Tried all the simple things (cycling the key switch, connecting to a charger etc) that I image would force a state change and get any stuck contactors to open / close. No dice. In case anyone is interested you can see a video here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/vpoi9xjjyammocj/IMG_0192.MOV?dl=0) and here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/clu6fzu85vbm71c/IMG_0193.MOV?dl=0) of what was happening.
The morning after this I turned the bike on, after it ran through the init sequence all of the LCD segments started flashing and got nothing from the rest of the bike (video here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/b9xb6tlnp26k3oy/IMG_0197.MOV?dl=0)). At this point I gave Zero HQ a call and was able to speak to one of the service guys straight away (seriously, awesome support). After a couple of attempts to get a phone line where we could hear each other thanks to the wonderful, modern telecommunications infrastructure of Australia he had a chat to a few of the other guys there and suggested it was likely an issue with the DC-DC converter. Now the bike is obviously not mobile at this point so after asking nicely they emailed a schematic for that section of the system and some instructions to test and confirm the fault. Perfect.
Only problem is whoever last had this bike open was a little overzealous on the Loctite for the seat bolts judging by the amount on the left hand side. After spending Friday evening trying myself and this morning at the local bike mechanic (within pushing distance) I now have a completely burred right hand side bolt and no way to extract short of drilling it out and re-tapping or replacing the support bar that the seat uses to mount to the frame. At this point I've admitted defeat and organised for towing the the dealer next week. It's still within the factory warranty period so the issue can be sorted a little easier and will also be simpler to organise any replacement parts for bits that need to be sacrificed to get the f*#cking seat off.
What I'm really hoping is that if anything has been left active, it's not going to cause a deep discharge of the batteries...
@peter, sounds pretty similar to the issue you had with the 2012XU. Also, in regards to the previous owner, the bike was purchased from a car dealer where the owner had traded it so unsure of history of the issue. When tested ridden and inspected it worked as expected but it may well have faulted previously and triggered the trade in. A little google fu was able to identify the original owner and he appears to be the type that would opt to just guy by a new vehicle rather than taking the old one to a mechanic. The dealer did provided a 3 month warranty and it's still within the factory warranty as well so not overly concerned about the ability to get it resolved. Just a bit of an annoyance as it's a beautiful weekend down here and I want to ride my 2 wheel space ship.
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Phreak; bad luck man, I hope you get through it quickly. My experience with pretty much every bolt is they are rubbish. Get a box full of replacement ones - I use ss- and really carefully extract them with a good hit and a new tool. Did you get the bargain SR in Sydney? I met the former owners mate by chance last week at a bike cafe near me in Sydney.
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Yeah these things happen. Worse part is the other bike (ironically) has an electrical fault at the moment too. I've got a list of a few parts that'll be swapped out once the warranty is up and looks like some of the mounting hardware will be joining that list. And yep, this is that SR - picked it up for a great price.
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Just seconding what nigezero said - the fasteners on our 2012 XU are rubbish. The metal is more like plasticine on most of the bolts. Use your mancave's bolt supply when replacing.
Peter
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One and half weeks down and still no closer to a fix...
Bike made it to the local dealer last Monday. After I called to follow up today they said they're waiting on Zero, yet when I last spoke with Zero they hadn't heard from the dealer. Joy.
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Sheesh. Early adopting is hard sometimes. BTW, I highly recommend having a spare charger or two on hand. Great for long trips or fast charging at home. I share a pair with another owner.
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This is starting to get a little ridiculous. I'm now into the 4th week straight that the dealer (Mototecnic, Melbourne) has had the bike and they're still saying they haven't been able to get in touch with Zero.
When I last spoke with Zero hadn't heard anything and we're they're going to try and have their Australian rep get in touch with the dealer. When I spoke to the dealer today they were going to reach out to the Australian rep to get some assistance in getting a response from the US. There's something seriously screwy here. As the bike can't be charged and there was still power (at least to the aux circuitry) this is starting to get to the point where the batteries are going to be impacted.
Anyone else had any drama's with servicing? It's getting to the point where it may be easier to look at shipping fees to get this thing in a container and over to Hollywood Electrics...
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You'll find more experienced people here than at most dealers; they just haven't had enough time. Don't understand the communications issues - pretty straight forward I would have thought? Tried Gas Gas? They are importer now
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Sheesh. Early adopting is hard sometimes. BTW, I highly recommend having a spare charger or two on hand. Great for long trips or fast charging at home. I share a pair with another owner.
I've got my own pair firmly mounted between my legs. I'm not disconnecting them to share with anyone.
@Phreak, the dealer network in Oz is pure shite. I don't know how many times I tried to get chargers, windscreen, Givis through the dealers.
I've since done much better by sourcing QuiQ chargers from Enerdrive, a Puig windscreen, panniers and top box from ebay and replacement mirrors and handlebar from some parts shop. Saved hundreds and better solutions than stock gear.
Now all I need is a hack into the firmware to check settings and I won't need to talk to the numpties pretending to be Zero agents in this country.
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Now all I need is a hack into the firmware to check settings
Get a Reaper dongle from Hollywood Electrics.
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I keep hearing that dealers say they can't get any support from Zero when they need it. I wonder why that is...when my bike has been in the shop, they don't seem to have any difficulty getting the support they need.
For instance, most recently, the bike failed to charge, which I thought might just be a blown fuse. I couldn't find any such fuse (turns out there isn't one), so I took the bike to the shop and they worked with the factory to diagnose it as a failed charger. The dealer called me to inform me of that, and also told me that the factory was waiting for a new shipment of chargers, at which point one would be shipped to the dealer and my bike could be repaired. It was, and my bike was returned to me less than a week from when it went in. That's a fair amount of activity to go on within a week's time, and it was all coordinated with the factory.
When I had the rear tire replaced, I asked them to crank up the damping on the rear end as it was getting pretty bouncy. They told me that the shock had failed, let me have the bike back, ordered the part from the factory, it arrived in a couple of days, and a single-day return to the dealer had the new shock installed. Again, even including shipping, it took less than a week to resolve, and didn't cost me anything other than not being able to ride the bike for one day.
Even when the bike was recalled for the motor, they had the bike tested, it failed, Zero shipped a new motor down, it was installed, and the bike was back in my hands in (IIRC) eight calendar days. That seems fairly responsive to me.
It seems to me the problem generally isn't with the factory, it's with the dealer. I wonder if a fair number of shop mechanics are intimidated by them, or just don't want to work on these "two-wheeled golf carts". It's a difficult situation for both Zero and us customers.
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It seems to me the problem generally isn't with the factory, it's with the dealer. I wonder if a fair number of shop mechanics are intimidated by them, or just don't want to work on these "two-wheeled golf carts". It's a difficult situation for both Zero and us customers.
Definitely agree with you there. When the issue first popped up I called Zero and was able to speak to someone straight away, after explaining the bike was a non-mover they sent through a process to help diagnose the issue. Any time I've sent them an email they've been super responsive and nice to boot.
The bike shop / dealer is not one I've dealt with before (aside from dropping in to take a Zero out for a test ride a year or so ago) but it's the only one within 1000km so don't have to much in the way of options. I don't want to put full blame on them as there could be legitimate reasons for the delay, but starting to think they may not overly capable when it comes to anything non ICE.
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This does not inspire any confidence in the new importer and dealer network. You think Zero would be keeping a close eye on new markets, especially after the exit of last years importer.
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All of the poor dealer experiences reported on this forum have got me worried. I really hope I don't have any problems when I get my FX. The closest shop to me is Mototecnic; it's about 800kms away. They've told me that there is s'posed to be a service centre being set up in Adelaide soon. It does make you wonder why some shops are much quicker with repairs than others. Surely it can't be too hard to diagnose and change a bad charger or battery!
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With so few dealers and such large distances, and that most cutomers have spent years on forum before buying they probably have better understanding of the bikes than the dealers. Zero would be better just dealing direct with customers.
I really dont see what value the extra $4000 to $5000 we are spending at the dealer is getting us?
no spares stock or accessories.
I just hoping 2016 Zero will make a better effort to reduce costs and market Zero properly.
Seems gizmag and this forum is only positive marketing.
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With so few dealers and such large distances, and that most cutomers have spent years on forum before buying they probably have better understanding of the bikes than the dealers.
Yep, it's a tricky one as the majority of components require a completely different skill set to work with / diagnose faults on than what a traditional motorcycle mechanic has. As there's already the bluetooth connectivity on the bikes I'm actually a little surprised that Zero haven't built in some further remote diagnostics than the rudimentary log file extraction. Seems to be a big opportunity there to enable more factory based support as well as MBB firmware updates without the bikes needing to make it to a 'sanctioned' location.
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Yeah a bit more Model S lkke would help a lot.
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firepower and PhreaK - way back in Zero's history (i.e. 2013) they did deal with owners, then changed company policy to doing all repairs through dealers. At the time there was quite a bit of support offered for this decision by folks on this forum, so maybe someone from then will chime in with their thinking for why it's better to go through dealers.
hth
Peter
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PS - I dealt directly with the Zero to replace the MBB and the DC-DC converter because the power stayed on after the key was removed. That was the fix I did myself.....
:-\
Peter
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If you look at map of zero dealers for Australia, our states are bigger than most counties, unlike Europe and USA where there are many dealers.
Even dealing with our dealer they may be 100 or 1000 of km /miles away, So really no difference to dealing online to Zero, just another step in the chain thats not needed.
Dealers don't carry stock or parts, they order from USA as need so why not go direct when clearly dealer and zero have trouble and long delays in communication.
Japanese and European bike brands have multiple dealers and in capital cities, Zero has neither. I know there a start up , but i also know many people have tried to become dealers and have been refuse, for example many solar businesses that understand the electrical side of the bike better than most mechanical bike dealers.
Most faults and issues with the bike are not mechanical but electrical.
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firepower, I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to explain how things have worked over the last couple of years. I'm originally form Oz and understand all about distances.
Zero doesn't even carry some things as stock so it's no surprise that dealers don't.
As yes, most faults are electrical and have a lot to do with crap QA/QC.
Peter
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I know, :) I just think Tesla model of direct customer rather than dealer model would be better. I also know traditional motorcycle dealers and oem don't want to push electric vehicles until they have their own models. Zero is in hard place to be.
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It's alive!
The dealer had a session remote session with Zero this morning. After waiting for this to happen for the past 5 weeks they got it up and going in the space of a couple of hours. The bike was running ancient firmware (previous owner had never had it updated) and apparently came back to life after an update. It's now just returned to the original issue where it won't de-power after removing the key. They've removed the ignition so it doesn't look like an electrical fault there but have another session tomorrow morning to look a little further. Progress!
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Have they tried disconnecting the Dc to dc converter?
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Phreak - not sure if this helps, but to test for an internal short in the Sevcon DC-DC converter for a 2012XU (which is what led to my lights staying on)
from Zero techs -
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Measure voltage between 3 and 5 with the key off (connector still connected from the back of the wires).
It should be 0 (or very low). With the key on, it should be pack voltage.
If it has pack voltage in the on position and 0 volts in the off position but the lights stay on, it means the DC DC converter is staying on internally (shorted).
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Not sure what converter you've got, but in case it helps...
Peter
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Thanks for the pointers peter, Cortezdtv.
Been diagnosed as a faulty MBB. The importer in Australia doesn't keep stock so they're shipping out a replacement.
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MBB are one of the most replaced parts. Not having stock is very bad customer service. S, DS and SR would all use the same MBB. I would have expected that part of being granted import rights would also be expected to carry common spare parts for warranty. Especially MBB. BM and MC and motors. Also chargers and dc-dc converters.
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Agree, firepower.
Phreak, good luck. My experience with the power staying on problem with our 2012XU was that it was first diagnosed as the MBB, which was replaced and didn't solve the problem. The DC-DC converter was next. Might be worth asking the shop to just check that the DC-DC converter is ok while they wait? Assuming that's possible, that is - maybe someone more knowledgeable on the forum could chime in here?
Peter
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MBB are one of the most replaced parts. Not having stock is very bad customer service. S, DS and SR would all use the same MBB. I would have expected that part of being granted import rights would also be expected to carry common spare parts for warranty. Especially MBB. BM and MC and motors. Also chargers and dc-dc converters.
While I agree, and think it would be great have spare parts at hand, for replacement and diagnosis, here in Oz, for warranty issues, I also think it's understandable that Zero, being a small company, probably don't want excess parts on the other side of the world, especially if they are potentially a "bad" part. Although I hate waiting, I'd rather get an up-to-date part, straight from Zero, for any warranty issues, so that there's less chance of the problem again. Most manufacturers(I work at Holden), these days, operate on a just-in-time business model, so that if there are any part problems, they aren't left with excess, useless stock.
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100% agree. The number of Zero's getting around Australia would, at my guess, be double figures at best. Keeping spares stock does not make sense. Absolutely no problems waiting for a new part to arrive, waiting 5 weeks for the thing to be looked at though is another story...
Also, peter, correct me if I'm wrong but from reading your posts the 2012XU would keep power to the LV but the motor would still be disabled with the key - this one is keeping power to everything.
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Woooot! The new MBB is in and the bike is back in the land of the living. The dealer is running it through a few charge cycles over the next day or two then hopefully all good from here on in. A little worried about potential impact to battery as it's been down for the past 2 months but will see how it checks out when I get it back. All going well, should be able to get stuck into a ride and beginning to de-uglify it this weekend.
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I have just been reading through this post and wanted to add a thought.
I am on holiday at the moment and dropped my 2015 SR into mototecnic to be repaired while I was away. Its been 4 weeks and its all fixed they tell me (email). I had a SOC issue related to charging and some other minor stuff.
The US can connect to the bike remotely and change/do stuff. But when we are at work, they are asleep, and the other way round. Some one has to work at 3 am (or there abouts). This could be the hold up.
Also I am a computer programmer and the computer system I worked on could run diagnostics on itself with an incredible level of accuracy. But it cost over $1,000,000. Give Zero time, amazing things will be possible in the future but it costs a lot of money (and time) to develop really smart software.
As for the importer holding spares - I would be happy if they gave us the option to pay extra for the spares to be air freighted "overnight" or pay no extra and wait a week or two.
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Our 8:30am is 3:30pm over on the West coast so still get a decent amount of overlap - it's anything East of Texas thats a PITA. There just seemed to be some serious communication issues in getting the initial session lined up. However there could have been something else I'm not aware of which made things difficult too. It sucked not having the bike for so long, but super happy to be able to start putting some kilometers (/miles if you're that way inclined) on it soon.
+1 of the express parts freight option too. Once the SR is running nicely the car and bike #2 will be off to new homes. After this point, if it does need a need a part, forking out for air freight is more attractive that no bike for up to a month and spending a fortune on Ubers.
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F*$)#&$)#&#
Just had a call from Mototecnic. Was about to shoot out and pick up the bike, however during testing this morning the dash has started flashing again. The mechanic is flat out now so doesn't have a chance to look at it until Tuesday. Back to square one.
I've contacted the dealership this was purchased from to begin organising a return if it is not up and going in the next week. I *really* want to like the Zero's, but after 2 months with a dud, not sure how on board I still am.
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Finally, some good news. After a remote session with Zero earlier in the week they were able to get everything going. Unsure what the issue was at this point as the guy who deals with the Zero's wasn't there, but have asked for details to satisfy my own curiosity. All parts and labour covered under warranty too which was awesome.
Only downer is after getting home I noticed the ODO was showing 118,174km - it went in with 640km. Unless the bikes been sitting on the dyno continuously for the past few months I'm guessing this is down to the MBB swap out so will have to take it back in to get it all matched back up.
After running through a charge today, I've got to say, it's one addictive machine. After switching it over to sport mode and heading out to a nice twisty stretch of road, I'm fairly sure I've burnt through my adrenaline stores for the next month. I see what you guys mean about the seat as well. That thing gets mega uncomfortable.