ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Burton on April 25, 2015, 07:47:24 AM
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Warning! Danger! Don't even try this if you thought for a second you couldn't!
That said ... on to the good stuff. For those of you not in the Facebook Owners group I will post this here for you.
Background:
There is a very slight wobble in the sprocket on my motor, it is a ventilated motor with very expensive ceramic bearings. I was told the bearings or the shaft are at fault and the only way to really tell is to remove the motor. So I did ... without removing the swing arm mind you.
Then I went to taking the motor apart.
Again DON'T DO THIS! lol
Taking zero motor apart for diagnosis and repair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x6_AEspa7E#ws)
And no, it is not under warranty this thing is so modified it is nuts ... oh and it was raced for about 600 miles.
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You're gonna think I'm a total jerk, but that was one of the most painful things I've watched on Youtube. :o The title should be, "Using all the wrong tools to do it wrong". I had to stop watching half-way through.
So, a little advice. Is there a reason you didn't loosen the pulley end bolt when the motor was in the bike and the drive belt was still on the pulley? That works really well, using the rear wheel instead of manking up your pulley. Yes, "manking" is a word. It is derived from "mank", or "manky".
The cir-clip and retaining clip for the bearing isn't some magical special thing. It's pretty much standard for any shaft and bearing assembly, so yeah, you've seen it on your motorcycle anywhere you've had a shaft, a bearing and a seal. Go spend $30 and get some cir-clip pliers. Prying the retaining clip out with a screwdriver is just going to mank up the slot and make it so you'll have nothing to hold the bearing and seal in place with.
While you're at it, go buy a gear puller. Prying stuff off with any variety of random tool you have around not only breaks said random tools, but it manks up whatever you're pulling. Guaranteed. Gear pullers apply even pull in the same direction as the shaft. So if you didn't warp your pulley in your effort to make your pulley stop wobbling, you're just lucky. You know how you realized that your faceplate on your motor tipped down on the opposite side you were prying up on? That's what I'm talkin' bout. You'd use the puller for the pulley, but also for the faceplates of the motors.
ANY time you're prying metal, USE SOFTER MATERIAL to pry. Yes, i'm shouting. NEVER use steel to pry aluminum. I flinched every time you went near that thing with a damned screwdriver, and when you described twisting the screwdriver instead of prying? I had to turn it off.
I have several brass rods I use as drifts, and pry bars, and I use plastic bicycle tire irons as well, for small parts. I use wood, too. At the MOST, use aluminum. As a general rule, whenever you're prying some assembly? You're already Doing it Wrong.
I'm not going to pretend I didn't do stuff the way you're doing it at some point in my life, but that's how I learned how just plain dumb it is. You think you can cheat stuff, you just break stuff, and if you get away with it once, don't think you're anything but lucky. I totally applaud any DIY work like this and any attempts to learn, but for the love of f8ck, try to approach it with some degree of professionalism - at least if you decide to film it and post it on Youtube and various forums.
...going back to try to watch the rest, now.
edit: I made it all the way to where you started prying against the heat sink. Then I started crying.
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Burton,
Thanks very much for taking the time to shoot, edit, and post that video. I was very curious about the insides of the Zero motor, especially the pass-throughs for the large feed cables which have more surface (sealing) area than I thought. I'll also be careful about water in the encoder area.
Is this the ventilated motor? It looks like one side cover's been opened up to allow air into the center of the rotor, then it shoots out... where? Through the windings and back out the entry holes? It must drop the temps quite a bit.
What replacement bearings will you be using?
Ray
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One more comment. Spinning the bearings for "feel", and wiggling them? Not really the approved method for determining a bearing's health. The standard practice, once you've torn an assembly down to the bearings is to simply replace the bearings since they're cheap.
Which of course begs the question... do you have a bearing puller and a press, or a race and seal kit? Because if you don't, you a) won't be able to get the old bearings off without damaging them, and b) won't be able to put the new bearings on without - you guessed it - damaging them.
I thought this thread was worthy of a blog post. I've linked tools there, if you're interested in doing it right.
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/how-not-to-work-on-stuff/
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Also, a question about the whole "wobble" thing. Whoever told you the only way to check it was to take the whole thing apart is (at the most politest I can possibly be) completely and pitifully wrong. And it's a "pulley", not a "sprocket". 8)
Did you mike the pulley, then the shaft? (edit: using a dial indicator with a mag base to check runout) Again, before even pulling the motor out, and I'd have miked it even with the belt on so I could have seen if there was deflection when you muckled on to the wheel. Then you pull the pulley off and mike the play on the shaft - again trying to deflect it (kind of harder to do, probably have to resort to a rubber mallet to see how much it deflects).
Or, you could go semi-hack and just replace the pulley. My $10 says your old one is warped, and even if you're able to get this poor thing back together you're still going to have the wobble, and not be any the wiser than you were when you started. You'll just have added the question, "did I damage the bearings or the seats or the shaft?" to the equation.
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You're gonna think I'm a total jerk, but that was one of the most painful things I've watched on Youtube. :o The title should be, "Using all the wrong tools to do it wrong". I had to stop watching half-way through.
I completely understand what you mean. "Use the right tools for the right job."
So, a little advice. Is there a reason you didn't loosen the pulley end bolt when the motor was in the bike and the drive belt was still on the pulley? That works really well, using the rear wheel instead of manking up your pulley. Yes, "manking" is a word, and it was coined for guys like you. LOL
Yes, you cannot access the bolt while on the bike. Trust me I thought of that and even went so far as to ask Terry how to remove it knowing he did it before. His advice was to bolt the wheel to a wood table and run the belt between the motor and wheel and do it that way. I didn't feel like removing the swing arm just to try this out.
Oh, and it is good to be king ;)
The cir-clip and retaining clip for the bearing isn't some magical special thing. It's pretty much standard for any shaft and bearing assembly, so yeah, you've seen it on your motorcycle anywhere you've had a shaft, a bearing and a seal. Go spend $30 and get some cir-clip pliers. Prying the retaining clip out with a screwdriver is just going to mank up the slot and make it so you'll have nothing to hold the bearing and seal in place with.
Who said I didn't use cir-clip pliers to remove it? (see attached image below) I haven't worked on my ninja 250 in about 6 months since getting my zero having put on 8400 miles in that time. I use to always be working on the bike and would have remembered where my random thought was leading me but decided to go with it anyway.
I didn't use them on the large retaining C-ring as there were no holes. On those I have always used very light force with a pick tool or a small screw driver since typically the pattern at the ends is that of a saw blade. At least the ones on my forks are.
While you're at it, go buy a frikkin gear puller. Prying stuff off with any variety of random tool you have around not only breaks said random tools, but it manks up whatever you're pulling. Guaranteed. Gear pullers apply even pull in the same direction as the shaft. So if you didn't warp your pulley in your effort to make your pulley stop wobbling, you're just lucky. You know how you realized that your faceplate on your motor tipped down on the opposite side you were prying up on? That's what I'm talkin' bout. You'd use the puller for the pulley, but also for the faceplates of the motors.
Who says I didn't try one first? (see attached image) The fins were too fine and got in the way of all three of my gear pullers. I would have loved to use my gear pullers since they are far simpler to use than the method I used.
ANY time you're prying metal, USE SOFTER MATERIAL to pry. Yes, i'm shouting. NEVER use steel to pry aluminum. I flinched every time you went near that thing with a damned screwdriver, and when you described twisting the screwdriver instead of prying? I had to turn it off.
I have several brass rods I use as drifts, and pry bars, and I use plastic bicycle tire irons as well, for small parts. I use wood, too. At the MOST, use aluminum. As a general rule, whenever you're prying some assembly? You're already Doing it Wrong.
While I was doing it I was trying to make sure I wasn't doing serious damage. I know, I know any damage is serious damage. My first though was to use wood and I wish I had some type of plastic.
But I would agree on the softer material use and never heard of the prying it rule but it also makes sense.
I'm not going to pretend I didn't do stuff the way you're doing it at some point in my life, but that's how I learned how just plain dumb it is. You think you can cheat stuff, you just break stuff, and if you get away with it once, don't think you're anything but lucky. I totally applaud any DIY work like this and any attempts to learn, but for the love of f8ck, try to approach it with some degree of professionalism - at least if you decide to film it and post it on Youtube and various forums.
I believe I made a disclaimer about not doing what I did ;) and the video isn't public but yes it is on this forum.
...going back to try to watch the rest, now.
edit: I made it all the way to where you started prying against the heat sink. Then I started crying.
LOL I know this feeling trust me I really do. I have built out my tools for my gas bike over the years to ensure I do things right with careful research and planning. Sadly I didn't find much in the way of taking apart an electric motor, or a zero motor at that. I did ask two people who have taken them apart previously for advice and one mentioned making a jig to make his life easier. No details were given on the jig though or technique.
So yeah, could have researched it more before hand so I could have used the proper tools. I likely would have only had to wait a week or two to find someone who could walk me through it well enough to know what I needed to do with what.
One more comment. Spinning the bearings for "feel", and wiggling them? Not really the approved method for determining a bearing's health. The standard practice, once you've torn an assembly down to the bearings is to simply replace the bearings since they're cheap.
Most bearings I have ever had go bad will have rough spots in them when rotated. The wiggle test really only works when the bearing is really shot and the inner race is moving freely. These are not cheap bearings, they are ceramic bearings at $300+ each (I know now you are really cringing at what I did) ;)
Which of course begs the question... do you have a bearing puller and a press, or a race and seal kit? Because if you don't, you a) won't be able to get the old bearings off without damaging them, and b) won't be able to put the new bearings on without - you guessed it - damaging them.
I have bearing pullers, a couple of them actually. They will not work on the encoder side without making an aluminum plug to protect the part the encoder reads on the shaft tip as it is right in the center of the shaft >_<
The bearing inside the first plate I took off doesn't have both races accessible to remove the bearing. Only the inner race and most of the side shields can be seen from the side I would have to push from (see attached picture)
I wouldn't have tried to remove the bearings or put new ones in without consulting with someone who has done it before and I have already been in contact with this person and they know I might have to replace them.
I have replaced bearings in the past and know how delicate you must treat them when applying pressure but I don't have a proper press at my house yet as I always used the one at work at the time. A press has been on my buy list for a while now and I was just waiting for a reason to pick one up.
I thought this thread was worthy of a blog post. I've linked tools there, if you're interested in doing it right.
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/how-not-to-work-on-stuff/
Oh look, I am famous. I have updated the title of the video just for you.
Also, a question about the whole "wobble" thing. Whoever told you the only way to check it was to take the whole thing apart is (at the most politest I can possibly be) completely and pitifully wrong. And it's a "pulley", not a "sprocket". 8)
You are assuming I don't have other videos I used for diagnosis with the person who informed me there was either a shaft or bearing problem with the motor. With the motor on there was play in the shaft when belt tension was removed. It isn't suppose to do that.
Did you bother to try miking the pulley, then the shaft? Again, before even pulling the motor out, and I'd have miked it even with the belt on so I could have seen if there was deflection when you muckled on to the wheel. Then you pull the pulley off and mike the play on the shaft - again trying to deflect it (kind of harder to do, probably have to resort to a rubber mallet to see how much it deflects).
I have a two lav mics going when I ride. One faces the right side of the motor and the other is in my helmet. I have used the one on the right side on the left with the belt / pulley / etc. There is play in the shaft and my other videos, also hidden and not public or published anywhere, show this ;) This whole thing started because at lower speeds, < 15mph, it felt like I was going over cobble stone and didn't sound right.
Or, you could go semi-hack and just replace the pulley. My $10 says your old one is warped, and even if you're able to get this poor thing back together you're still going to have the wobble, and not be any the wiser than you were when you started. You'll just have added the question, "did I damage the bearings or the seats or the shaft?" to the equation.
The pulley is good, checked it as soon as I took it off. That stated I already had another on order with zero before this happened. I suspect it will take them 3 months to get everything I ordered to me.
Shaft seems fine. Micrometer didn't show any bid deviations when measuring it, and given how tight it was I wouldn't expect it to.
The bearing in the plate does have some rough spots when rotating. The bearing still on the shaft on the encoder side does not have any rough spots but I haven't taken it off yet as I am waiting for my contact to get back with me on how best to do it and how best to test them.
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Burton,
Thanks very much for taking the time to shoot, edit, and post that video. I was very curious about the insides of the Zero motor, especially the pass-throughs for the large feed cables which have more surface (sealing) area than I thought. I'll also be careful about water in the encoder area.
You shouldn't have to worry too much about a stock motor and water in the encoder. But if you feel the bike doing odd things (like pulsing all the time) then it is likely an encoder issue.
Is this the ventilated motor? It looks like one side cover's been opened up to allow air into the center of the rotor, then it shoots out... where? Through the windings and back out the entry holes? It must drop the temps quite a bit.
What replacement bearings will you be using?
Ray
The motor was ventilated by the previous owner since it was used for racing. Yes, it keeps the motor really cool and both sides are opened. The encoder side more so than the opposing site. (see attached picture on last image if you didn't notice the holes before on the plate in question)
Not sure if I will replace the bearings with ceramic ones or simply go with standard ones. A new motor cost $1500 ... ceramic bearings for this thing apparently cost about $1k if I recall. Neither bearings looked like the grease wasn't still sealing them from outside elements.
Not sure what I am going to do yet as I am waiting for my contact to get back with me on further testing since they have done this before. And no Ted, the former contact wasn't the one who told me how to take the motor apart ;)
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I bet that is the way they would work on an electric motor in China or India. ;) Just get a bigger hammer, pliers and screwdriver. :o
I always figured that Tiger was planning to sell the Electric Motorsport GPR-S in Southeast Asia and then realized that the countries there weren't quite ready for high-speed electric propulsion yet. ::)
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LAV mike? No, I meant micrometer.
But I see you did check for play, just wondering how. As for the puller, there's always a way to use a puller. Sometimes making the brackets you need is more work than just prying and hacking, but I can see three ways to try it just from your video.
Thanks for changing the title. Sincerely. I think I'll link this thread on the post I made as well. All good points, but yeah - you don't say how to do stuff right or why you're doing it this way? People are going to make assumptions.
That kind of money for ceramic bearings is crazy talk.
http://www.microbluebearings.com/categories/CERAMIC-BALL-BEARINGS/6000-SERIES-CERAMIC-BALL-BEARINGS/ (http://www.microbluebearings.com/categories/CERAMIC-BALL-BEARINGS/6000-SERIES-CERAMIC-BALL-BEARINGS/) for just the quickest search I could do.
I'd love to see a photo of the motor in the bike if you have one. It's (further) boggling (what's left of) my mind that you couldn't get the bolt out. And you have to pull out the swingarm to get the rear wheel off? What's up with that?
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Ok what is wrong with using an omnidirectional lav mic to mic an already quiet motor for vloging? :/
When the motor was on the bike and the belt removed I applied pressure to the pulley and the whole shaft moved slightly. This was likely the third test done on the bike to try and figure out what was wrong.
Thinking back it is far easier for me to figure out was I should or could have done things. One way of using the pullers could have been to use a wire loop in each hole of the plate. At the time I didn't think of this or I would have.
What were the cost of the bearings back in 2012? Those are current prices. The bearing source was worldwidebearings.com but I am unsure as the exact size but I believe they are 6006 (need to take them off first to measure thickness but they are 55mm x 30mm x ? [and yse I used my micrometer to figure that out but you would likely want me to call it a caliper ;) ])
EDIT: They are 6006RS bearings according to the stamp on side.
Photo requested
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7662/17264014612_a5501ace37.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/siyA5m)
The amount of clearance in there was about 1/4" and the bolt head is 3/16" deep.
I took the wheel off because it was in the way and it is far easier to move a swing arm when the wheel wasn't attached. In order to remove the motor the swing arm was put in the full upright position (shock removed) and the first stock charger from the back of the bike removed so it could drop down.
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Nothing at all... brilliant actually, it's just that I was asking about something completely different.
Thanks for that photo. And DAMN that's tight. :o
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Gotcha. I moved the mic from left to right side (non belt side) because the belt noise (growling etc) was too much over there.
Where you thinking of those automotive stethoscopes?
Yeah, very tight and frustratingly so. It took me a while to figure out just how to remove the motor with the swing arm on the bike as the clearance to get a wrench inside wasn't there for that either.
I could probably remove a motor in about 30 minutes now I have done it once.
In your experience what brand bearings are reliable for this application?
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Based on nothing but 40 years of habit, I love me the Timkin, but I really don't know, and shouldn't be trusted. :D We discovered industrial bearings a long time ago - same stuff, sometimes better, for pennies on the dollar of what motorcycle supply shops would sell you.
It could be that they are some special sauce. What bugs me is that they're ceramic, but if they feel rough they've failed. How is that possible? I'd really hesitate to replace them with anything less awesome... But these here are $95: (weird, it won't take the link, but the link to the main page is above) Check the measurements to make sure, of course. These show 30mm Bore, 55mm OD, 15mm Width
No, when I said "miking" I meant putting a dial indicator on it with a mag base:
(http://www.tpub.com/engine2/en2_files/image030.jpg)
...sorry, again, 40 years of (bad) habit.
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In my limited 20 year experience working with bearings if they feel rough when you rotate them they are bad. Normally I found if I removed the sides I would find a couple bearings with flat spots in these cases. Sure they might rotate still but they are now a point of future failure.
I took the bearing out of the plate, it is 13mm so 6006RS (rubber sealed) it is. And, the inner race does have a bit of play on it as well as the aforementioned roughness when rotating. The other bearing is smooth ... very smooth. I will likely replace both anyway and have an extra one on the side as an emergency backup. (kind of like I do with tires I order them in pairs)
I have sent an email out to WWB to see what a quote would be on these bearings since they are the original manufacture.
Can't say I have ever heard of the term 'miking' before but I bet my father has since he has been working on large vehicles since he was 16. So far I haven't had a need for a dial indicator with my rotors as it is pretty easy to tell when I need to replace the ones on my bikes and I barely ever ride my car.
I can see where having one for something like this would have been useful. I am not sure if it would have picked up the play in the shaft though since it required force be applied to it first.
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I thought this thread was worthy of a blog post. I've linked tools there, if you're interested in doing it right.
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/how-not-to-work-on-stuff/
Hi Ted,
Since I bought my ZeroDS 2013 last year, I started reading both your blog, and this forum and I've come to recognize and respect both your name and Burton's.
In the past, I was a high school Math and Physics teacher, and trust me, I know what it's like to see people do things "the wrong way" (over and over again). The hard part of that job was to give feedback in ways that help people learn best. That's what I'd like to comment on here, not about whether Burton did the right thing or not; that, I have absolutely no clue and I trust that you do.
I appreciate the time you took to write your reply to Burton. You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into spelling out the proper way to do things, not only for him, but for the rest of the group. That's commendable; that's how science works!
That being said, however, I think the tone of your reply could have been more respectful. Calling him "this guy" on your blog post and swearing and "shouting" in the main reply on this forum was unnecessary. To me (and I may be wrong), it seems like you've taken what Burton did a bit personal and let your frustration bleed throughout your entire reply.
I read the entire exchange and the content of your reply has a lot of technical advice (which I assume is "right"). Again, I think that was a helpful thing to do. The only thing I would have changed is the tone of your delivery.
People tend to learn best when their efforts to learn are validated first, no matter how wrong what they actually did might be. I remember one of my education professors used the phrase: give students a "star" and a "wish". At first, I thought that meant I should sugar coat everything (which I don't like to do). But I later came to realize that it's about validating what they've done right, and explaining what they could have done better. For Burton, it's the experimentation (on his own equipment) and sharing it with others that he did right, and all the mistakes he might have made that he could do better. For you, it's the detailed technical reply that you did right, and the tone that you could have done better.
There's no need to assume from the beginning that you'll be perceived as a "jerk" just for giving feedback. At least, I hope not. What would that make me? ;-)
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Absolutely, if they feel rough, they're pretty definitely bad. It's when they don't feel rough, or you can't really feel the slop that's the problem. Most of the time if they're 100% clean and free of grease, yes, you can judge them by feel, because any play is pretty obvious. Also it helps if they're outside of wherever they live.
AH, OK, you didn't use a dial indicator. (...let's forget about my slang, shall we? ::) ) I would have used that to measure the run-out on the pulley, first, then after removing the pulley, on the shaft. That's how you'd find out if you have a warp on either, or play. When you said you used a micrometer, that's what I thought you were talking about... many levels of confuse I guess. ;) Anyway, if you could see the slop, then you didn't need to do that I guess.
@ptruchon ...
(https://scontent-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/305128_2450967233061_761481547_n.jpg?oh=77b522b85c16aca9d1d718e3ad40bd93&oe=55E512A6)
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In Teds defense he didn't have all the information behind what I didn't show, tried off camera, or didn't include in the original post.
Had I included all the missing information someone would need to better judge my abilities and skill with tools I suspect his post would have been far different.
While it wouldn't have been the way I would have criticized my own video having come upon it the first time the information was accurate given what he knew.
I have worked on many things where if you cannot mess up ... I don't think I have ever posted any of those to my youtube channel outside maybe my valve adjustment videos for the ninja 250. But I have took small electrical devices with hundreds of parts apart before and reassembled them to fix something following proper procedure as not to mess it up.
This was just different. Most people who know me personal have heard me say "the right tools for the right job" when talking about what they are doing. While I am doing something I often stop myself when having difficulty and think what would be the idea tool to use. In this case I relied on my experience of taking things slow with tools you shouldn't use to do it to get a job done which shouldn't take that long with the right tools.
I posted the video not as a true "this is how you do it," video but a "look what it takes to get this thing apart and here is how I did it" video. When I do true how to videos I spend one part of the series of videos just going over the tools and why you use them. ;)
If you look at the motor post video there isn't any major damage because I took my time. There is more "character" on the outside of the motor from when it went down into a rock pit on a racetrack in the past.
Moving on ... now to wait for WWB to get back to me so I know the damage. If they bearings are indeed special in some way making them cost a small fortune I might generic and start saving up for a sealed motor and go the ATF route for enhanced cooling. (since it will be streamlined in the future)
Anyone have suggestions to clean up the crud in the motor?
I was thinking of using a small clean soft tooth brush, and an air compressor on low PSI as I rather take the armature (shaft assembly) out if I use higher PSI. ... And I don't know the best way of doing that yet but there is paper wedged in between the armature and the electromagnets.
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Well, I've got to say, I did enjoy seeing the guts of the motor, even it it was between moments of panic and tears. :D
I'm really interested to hear what the report is on those bearings. Like I said, they started out as the best of the best, yet they failed - what's that about? The only thing I can figure is that they possibly lost some of the ceramic coating - is that even possible? I'm not at all familiar with the tech there.
As far as the "how to do it" and stuff, I shudder to think of what you might comment if you went through my "blowing stuff up" video section. ;D
...as far as my "tone"? ...yeah, whatever. If the guy's read my blog, he should be used to it. 8)
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Thanks for the video! And I wouldnt do a ceramic bearing, its not the right tool for that job. If you need 30-60 thousand rpm for a huge amount of revolutions in a dental tool or high speed inrunner then they are absolutely the right tool for the job, however for a zero motor, just buy a quality SKF or Timken sealed bearing. Ceramics are excellent for average load, ultra high-heat, ultra high speed, ultra clean operation, of which a zero is none of. Ceramics tend to abrade their surfaces away unless they are in sterile environments, whereas a standard hard steel bearing will "pocket" impurities, and continue running mostly unaffected.
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...as far as my "tone"? ...yeah, whatever. If the guy's read my blog, he should be used to it. 8)
Your not originally from Yorkshire are you Ted? ;)
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No, Boston. Kind of the same thing, I reckon. ::)
Thanks for that info Farfle, that's pretty interesting. So, why did they put in ceramic in the first place? Was this motor modified non-OEM?
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In Teds defense he didn't have all the information behind what I didn't show, tried off camera, or didn't include in the original post.
Had I included all the missing information someone would need to better judge my abilities and skill with tools I suspect his post would have been far different.
While it wouldn't have been the way I would have criticized my own video having come upon it the first time the information was accurate given what he knew.
Hi Burton,
You could have been trying to open the motor with a blowtorch or a sledge hammer. My point was simply that no matter how wrong you were or appeared to be, there was absolutely no need to point it out that way. You paid for the thing, you can break it if you want; there's nothing morally wrong with that (as long as you weren't misleading others into doing the same thing knowing they'd break theirs, which you obviously didn't). The video was instructive none-the-less: I was curious to see the inside of the motor no matter how you got it opened! Thanks again for posting it.
You, sir, take criticism like a gentlemen. Ted, not so much, but that's not my problem so... moving on.
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So, why did they put in ceramic in the first place? Was this motor modified non-OEM?
See signature ;)
Most of this bike was modified for racing, including the motor bearings.
So now the question is what bearing to buy.
I think these are what I need in SKF http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/160921377379?lpid=82&chn=ps (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/160921377379?lpid=82&chn=ps)
http://www.skf.com/ca/en/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/deep-groove-ball-bearings/single-row-deep-groove-ball-bearings/single-row/index.html?prodid=1050250006&imperial=false (http://www.skf.com/ca/en/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/deep-groove-ball-bearings/single-row-deep-groove-ball-bearings/single-row/index.html?prodid=1050250006&imperial=false)
JEM Bearing variant with higher tolerances and steel cage
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKF-6006-2RS-JEM-2RS1-Deep-Groove-Roller-Bearing-/150337201681?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2300cba611 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKF-6006-2RS-JEM-2RS1-Deep-Groove-Roller-Bearing-/150337201681?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2300cba611)
Found a great attached chart about bearing codes
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So, why did they put in ceramic in the first place? Was this motor modified non-OEM?
See signature ;)
Most of this bike was modified for racing, including the motor bearings.
Still, I'm wondering why those bearings were used, in light of Farlfe's comments. Was that a standard mod, or one particular guy's idea?
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I guess the point of my question was more about the advantages and disadvantages of ceramic bearings and the types available - not as much who done it and what they said. So I did some reading, and put this together:
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/27/taking-a-look-at-ceramic-bearings/
Apparently, yes, they're used where you want incrementally higher performance, but there's a pretty huge range of types and quality points. There's also a lot of hype associated with them, especially in the bicycle market.
This quote is from one of my sources:
Solid Ceramic: The ceramic balls are solid ceramic silicon nitride. A cheaper ceramic bearing uses steel balls with a thin ceramic layer. The elastic and thermal property difference between steel and ceramic cause the ceramic to split and separate from the steel portion of the ball on these less expensive look a likes.
Avoid this type of ceramic ball bearing.
My personal opinion (which, again, shouldn't be trusted) is that first, your bearings failed, so it would seem they aren't the type you want to replace them with. My blind guess is that they were the less-awesome flavor, or a cheap version and that's why they failed. I've never had any experience with a defective bearing, period, so I tend to rule that possibility out. That doesn't mean I wouldn't go back to the supplier and tell them their stuff failed, whatcha gonna do about it, right?
Second, it really doesn't seem like it's worth the additional expense for little or no measurable improvement. To me. In my opinion. Which means not too much, since I haven't used or tested them. ::)
In any case, it sounds like there's a lot of ceramic BS out there, and very little hard fact in the racing world at least. One guy claimed a 4% improvement in output on a gas motor. I don't know if you've built gas motors, but I have, and 4% is crazy talk. :o
update: I just found a study with some charts. "In tests, all-ceramic bearings consumed less than 25% of the power used by ceramic-metal-hybrid and all-metal bearings."
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Well, I've got to say, I did enjoy seeing the guts of the motor, even it it was between moments of panic and tears. :D
Why panic, why tears ? It's just a motor. I saw your criticism on FB about getting close to a truck to see the increase in range. I felt you were harsh but I understood the reason and respect that. But disassembly a motor without proving to everyone your an expert? You put too much.
My father is the best DIY guy example on the planet. He always acts as if he is more poor than the poorest man on the earth. I find it pretty amazing he is still alive today. Of course he did many things without knowing it that much. Of course he injured himself many times. But choose what's best: DIY all the way or LTODI (Let The Others Do It) all your life ? My wife is the best example of LTODI, but she's a women and I accept it. But from a man, I prefer the other choice. If you do nothing in your life you learn nothing. Humans did not invent things with all the budget and the top tools, we did it in our garages or in the shed or with the cows.
Anyway, I thought I would share my opinion and support Burton here.
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Can we keep this on-topic? Do you want me to delete my posts? At this point I'm happy to. Burton addressed my comments, and gave some more, and very important context to his video here which he hadn't before. Besides. That was an attempt at humor.
As far as "supporting Burton" goes, we've had several lengthy and pleasant conversations, appropriately in PMs, about my post and his response. There's no "sides" here, at least as far as I'm concerned.
And yes, it is painful for me to watch stuff like that. I literally can't, after a point. I too emphatically support DIY work, as I clearly said, but a huge part of DIY is learning how to do things correctly, and a lot of that is trial and error. But there's stuff you just don't do - just ask your father, I bet he'd agree. I could care less if you do it with your own stuff, but don't encourage other people to do it and say everything's going to be cool. You can tell me he had that "don't do this" disclaimer on it, but my take on the video didn't really support that message.
Funny, that's what my son's reaction was to that thread on the FB page (which I left, pretty much because of that post): "I don't care what kind of stupid crap you do to yourself, but don't try to encourage other people to do it." And this is from a 21yr old kid. A damned fine mechanic, too. I taught him everything he knows. ::)
Can we talk about bearings, instead of what a jerk I am please? Go ahead and start a "Ted's a Big Jerk" thread if it makes you feel better. ;D
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Ted, speaking as one who's been on the other side of one of your rants, nobody thinks you're a jerk. But you clearly have an 11 on your dial (yes, that's a "This is Spinal Tap" reference), and maybe even a 12, and you need to learn to dial it back a few. Turn it down to about a 7 or an 8 and everybody will be good.
So yeah, let's move on.
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Y'know, I keep going back and reading my posts, thinking, hey, I've been drinking a lot of coffee lately, maybe these guys have a point. I'm thinking, I'll just go back and edit the more strident parts. But I can't for the life of me figure out what's so offensive.
12? Dude. That post was at about 6. You want 10, maybe, go read the thread where the Zero noob owner is talking about how cool it is to draft trucks on the Facebook page. Having a kid who's relatively new to riding, and imaging him reading that and thinking it was something he should try, yeah, I got pretty pissed off. It didn't help that a pro-rider friend of a good friend was killed on a motorcycle the night before. Of course, my son had a pretty funny reaction to it, to just dismiss the guy as an irresponsible idiot, thankfully, and I felt I'd done at least something good raising the boy.
The points I made are really good advice for anyone trying to learn how to wrench. Burton's response added to that, and he said there was some stuff he learned as well.
It's funny, the one guy who agreed with me is a mechanic and a builder.
Yes, you were on the other side of one of my "rants", when I posted a simple, and just-about-as-tactful-as-I-know-how-to-be comment disagreeing with some nomenclature you used - and your response was immediately defensive and personal, and escalated from there. Yeah, once someone takes it there, I'm bound to rant. Whatever.
Pretty much the overriding impression I have of this group, as it's evolved since I first joined in 2009 or something, is you guys want to have pleasant conversations where you all agree and aren't too concerned if you're passing on good information or not. Unfortunately, in spite of the lecture I got about civility and education styles by ptruchon, I don't agree that that's how you learn how to do things right, nor do a lot of people who really have worked their asses off to learn their shit express themselves so nicely. And as I said to ptruchon privately, I don't have the energy to tiptoe around fragile egos. For the record, where I come from, it's not unusual for people with strong opinions to express them passionately. But, that's Boston. Kidding aside, there is a culture here, and I'm fully aware it can be baffling to people not used to it. Especially Canadians. ::) (That was an attempt at self-depricating humor.)
So yeah, probably not a good fit. I'll leave you to your discussion, such as it is. I would have loved to learn some more about bearings and how this motor went back together, and maybe if I step down, I can eventually read that.
How was that? I figure you think it was at 13.5 or so.
By the way, if you want to see how a video should be done, look no further than Ben Nelson's work with his Leaf/Vectrix pack. He, too is doing this the first time, but he's showing perfect working habits and skills, and not taking (or showing) shortcuts.
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/28/how-to-work-on-stuff/
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Who does'nt like a bit of robust conversation now and again. :D
For the record, I did'nt see Ted being unfriendly, quite the opposite.
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Ted, let me be very clear here...I don't give a bloody damn how you behave, and never will. I've never met you, never interacted with you, and if I ever do, it will mean less than nothing to me. YOU'RE the one that should care. You once said to me (and I quote) "lol I missed the part about you using a hose on it. You're kidding right?" No, I'm not kidding, I washed my bike the same way millions of people wash millions of bikes. How and why does that deserve ridicule?
Oh this thread, you said yourself, to one of the most respected members of this forum, "You're gonna think I'm a total jerk, but that was one of the most painful things I've watched on Youtube." If you knew saying that was going to make people have that sort of reaction, why did you let it out of your yap? In fact, worse than that, you TYPED it! You had every opportunity to think better of it, you knew exactly how it would go over, and you did it anyhow. There are other forum members from Boston, and they don't talk that way to other members. Why do you? By deliberately talking to people that way, it seems like you must WANT people to think you're a jerk!
Don't you want people to read your blog? Don't you want people to not skip right over your comments on this board? Your behavior certainly doesn't show it.
Again, there's no need to defend yourself to me. I'm not going to read anything you write anyhow. But for your own sake, think before you write, and if you wouldn't want someone talking to you the same way you're about to talk to them, DON'T DO IT!
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I need to preface this by saying I am not responding with emotion but it could be easily read into the following post. This is not an attack on anyone it is a reflection of what is being discussed and perceived. I understand how Ted felt when watching my videos. "Use the right tools for the job," is a moto I often say to myself and about once a week I say to myself thinking "you are doing it wrong ... but why," when consuming someone's content online.
Onto the topic at hand
The video in question has never been publicly listed on youtube. It was original posted on FB as an update on MY progress with diagnosing the motor problem I had been talking about on their (found here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/823263171076226/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/823263171076226/) ) None of my videos I have likely ever produced are purely instructional. All of them are about me, my journey, and my process. I use a lot of sentences starting with "I" not "You" as I am no where near an authority on anything.
Side rant about my videos on youtube skip to next bold title if you wish
"I had to do it this way ... I found this hard ... I found it easier to do this way ... I made a mistake," these are very common in all of the videos I produce even when trying to show someone how to do something. My videos are personal, not mechanical; they are about me.
I don't make videos for other people, I make them for myself. I am very selfish in this regard but it frees me from being perfect and worrying about likes, views, and ratings. If you found my videos informative great, if not I don't care less you have something to add which is constructive. This is how I have always strived to be when it comes to my videos.
Several times I have found myself go back and watch my own videos as they were a way for me to externalize my knowledge at the time so I could reflect on it later when doing the same task.
All I am doing is sharing with others who for some reason or another find what I do interesting or entertaining. But it has never been my goal to please anyone who would consume the content I produce because it isn't for them, it is for me.
Back on topic of the FB post which started this journey for me
On this tread I had indicated I had problems with the motor and was seeking guidance for how to remove it.
After gaining enough information where I thought I could do what I needed to do I set off to removing the motor. It took me hours because I had not been given all the variables to be able to take it off in a half an hour; something I feel I could do now. I did not stop and take notes on how to do it in the future instead I shared a video with those tracking my progress so I could reference it later. I externalized my knowledge gained up to that point for me and others who wish to follow my journey.
I had made this horrible video for those who were following my post, found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6TerwDagrQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6TerwDagrQ) , and it currently has 18 views. 18 people from the owners group were interested in this topic watched the video to date and it to has never been publicly listed on youtube. I made an offhand promise I would try to produce one later which was better quality and when I do it will be about how I did it, not how you should do it.
As of right now the zero motor video has 171 views. Granted the video was also posted here for those who wish to see informing them I had originally only posted this on the FB Zero Owners Group page and thought I would share it here.
Taking my motor apart to figure out why there is play in the shaft causing the sprocket to wobble a little.
First time doing this with limited guidance so be patient with me ;)
This is what is found in the bodies description for the video. The original title read "Taking zero motor apart for diagnosis and repair" not "HOW TO take YOUR zero motor apart for diagnosis and repair." Later this description was changed after Ted posted in horror at what I had done to the current title.
11 views came from facebook directly and 28 from EMF, 82 came from unknown embedded players. I can't say how many views this would have had if it was never picked up for critique.
last side note about me ... because it is all about me ;)
I am all for critique ... if I am doing something wrong or making a false claim I want to know. When I talk to people about important issues I make sure to have sources I can give them. "Know why you believe what you believe" is something I live by. Show me your sources so I might read them.
If you are someone who I respect because you live by similar principles I want to know why you hold a position on something I don't. I want to read your sources, understand your arguments, and further redefine my understanding of the topic so I can speak with what limited authority I have.
Those who know me think I am the smartest person they know. But I know I am just someone who values research and the more I know the more I realize I don't know. To me this is normal, to others it appears abnormal.
My same love for research extends into my other passions. Several months before buying my ninja 250 all I did was read service manuals and the wiki how to so when I got my bike I would be better prepared to work on it. When I got the bike home I stripped it down, cleaned it, tuned it, and put it back together again. Previous to this I had changed the oil on my car once.
I hunger for knowledge and if I want to learn something, or do something, I find a way to do it. This has always been a driving force in my life, in many ways it defines who I am as a person.
When I got my zero I knew nothing about how the bike worked and fumbled over many key functions in my earlier videos about the bike. But I was hungry for knowledge and I continue to hunger. This lead me to making my own wire diagram for the bike, something people normally have to sign an NDA with Zero to get for my own reference. Yes I shared it with the community but I did not just share a diagram I shared my story. I shared my difficulties, my concerns, my victors, and my process, and ultimately my triumph.
I didn't do this alone, nothing I have ever done was gained from working by myself. Without others there are no shoulders to stand on. That is another reason I share what I do, even when I mess up. And if I do something wrong I hope by exposing myself someone takes enough interest in what I am doing to reach a hand out and help me up so I can stand tall for those who wish to boost off my own shoulders. Because of this if someone is right, and I know they are right, I don't ignore them based off other perceptions I might have of them.
The videos I make are not about what they appear. To me they are about showing others "you can do something if you really want to do them," this is the essence of much of what I "produce" for people to consume. But ultimately they are just about me.
It brings me great joy to see someone wake up to this realization.
Sorry this was such a long read :)
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I'm not sure if it's relevant but, Here's my 2 cents anyway. I have spent a lot of years as a mechanic. I fully understand the "right tool for the job" thing. However, I also spent 7 years as an F-16 crew chief in the USAF. So, I am also familiar with the "do more with less" mentality. You should have seen the crappy tools we used to fix multi-million dollar fighter jets. It wasn't pretty. Still, neither me or my crew ever lost a jet. It is possible to make up for the lack of a proper tool by using some skill and patience. Of course there some things I would have done differently than in the video but, I have to admire the balls it took to tackle such a potentially expensive job. That was some impressive back yard mechanic work. Good job!
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By the way, if you want to see how a video should be done, look no further than Ben Nelson's work with his Leaf/Vectrix pack. He, too is doing this the first time, but he's showing perfect working habits and skills, and not taking (or showing) shortcuts.
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/28/how-to-work-on-stuff/
I noticed quite a few strange things in his videos! Saying that this is an example of doing it right is a mistake.
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When Bostonians aren't speaking their mind are they allowed to have any fun?
I don't see the problem with any video that does anything wrong as long as they aren't insisting that everyone does the same. Everyone here has something useful to contribute. Let's not allow EMF to become "one of those motorcycle forums."
I like the fact everyone here is friendly and if someone posts anything wrong it always gets corrected by the next poster in short order.
Back on the subject at hand; ceramic bearings are de rigeur in cycling atm. I have them on my climbing wheels and compared to similar steel bearings they do freewheel longer when spun but I very much doubt they would make a significant difference to a mere mortal like me. Sorry for the pointless anecdote. My point is that if you wanted to learn about the benefits of ceramic bearings there are some very technical cycling websites that would be a good place to start.
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Yeah well, John (skadamo, the guy who runs the place) wouldn't let me quit. Something about "bringing tons of good advice" and "experience". So you're stuck with me. :P
Thanks, by the way, for the advice, Doug S. Funny, that sounds like it's about at 11 to me, but that's just my perspective.
Since Burton fully explained his motives, let me do the same, briefly, for everyone but Doug who's not reading this anyway. ::)
I don't care if anyone reads my blog. I've said from the very beginning, my blog is for me to keep track of the information I've found over the years. I had no idea when I started it that it would last this long, but it has, so I keep it up and it's fun for me. That said, I have a few hundred readers a day, the biggest traffic is on the tech advice and reference posts, and so I feel a vague responsibility to be accurate and consider that someone may just try what I'm suggesting. That said, if the stuff isn't accurate, it's useless to me and presumably everybody else. I also wrote a book (that I'm reckoning Doug won't read) that I killed myself to be as accurate an introduction as possible to building your own electric motorcycle, and I did that because, first, I didn't feel the books out there were particularly helpful or up to date, and second, to compile the information I had to make it easier to answer people's questions, like, "How do I get started building my own motorcycle?" I can say, "...have you read my book?".
One small point, not to beat a dead horse. Burton's video is not "private". It's "unlisted". Which means, when he posts it to Facebook and here, anybody can see it, link and embed it - even copy it for themselves. So by posting it here and on Facebook it becomes searchable. I feel there's a responsibility implied with that, as with my blog.
On my work in InsideEVs, we get over a million hits a month on that site, with readers who don't let you get away with anything, and editors who care. Hell, I got called on improper use of an apostrophe. So the work I do there has a more professional tone, naturally, and I stand behind 100%. I like that people read my work, but the site pulls so much traffic by itself (it's now the 2nd biggest EV site on the web) that if people don't like my work, it's not a big deal.
What is important to me is that people learning this stuff get accurate, good, and safe information. Period.
As far as how people "talk" to me? My skin's a lot thicker, apparently, than a lot of you folks. I worked in advertising for 30 years. You're not going to make me cry. This "lol you're kidding, right?" that apparently started this whole thing? I can only respond, "lol, you're kidding, right?"
And thinking before I write? I'm a writer. All I do is think before I write. I revise everything constantly, including PMs and posts here, and go back and correct stuff to make sure it's accurate. I'd suggest, after seeing some posts and the things some claim to be facts, others might be a little more careful to do the same. I'm still astounded that someone who claims to be an EE would not know what dielectric grease is, or would post bad information about something so minor and easy to research that was just wrong.
I hope to god this thread can go back to the topic, but I've done everything I can to make it do so. It's up to you guys.
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So, out of respect for John's hard work keeping this forum together, I went back and edited some of my more, eh, "colorful" language. My original comments will remain intact on my blog.
His comment was, "You don't sugar coat stuff, that is for sure..." but went on to support my posts. So I'm not sugar-coating anything for your benefit, but I took some of the, well, tabasco out, for those with a more delicate constitution. ::)
I'd be happy to delete my responses to my personal critics, if they're willing to delete or edit their off-topic posts to try to get this train wreck back on the tracks. 8)
...if not, well, it is what it is. "All Aboard Amtrak!"
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Well ... that didn't last too long.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3AAFeXPE2w#)
Same noise / sensation / vibration returned! Except this time I am not going to let it get as bad as it did before.
Same problem as before, rotate the pulley under tension and it knocks. Take tension off and push pulley and there is play in all directions :(
Dropped the motor and pulled the front plate off ... there does seem to be play in the bearing similar to the ceramics I removed. Now looking at the stock SKF 60062RS JEM's I replaced the ceramics with last time (as I have another set sitting around) there is very little play in the same direction BUT there is most definitely play ...
My first thought is this play wouldn't matter if the bearings are parallel to each other and perpendicular to the axel but I could be wrong ... With something that has this much force applied to it it shouldn't have play like this.
Now could I get by with putting in the same type bearings ? History would suggest for 1-3k miles before the noise / vibration returns ... and at what point is it dangerous to ride ? ....
Sent Harlan a request for information on the bearings I should be using and inquired if he had any in stock ... OR if there is something else I should be testing for.
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Here is a decent breakdown of the numbers used to identify bearings, I'm sure you've already seen this or some other manufacturers definitions but it doesn't hurt to have it for reference http://www.skf.com/binary/30-61889/TT08_006.pdf (http://www.skf.com/binary/30-61889/TT08_006.pdf)
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Yup that works for a lot of bearings but the stock bearings are Japanese made NTN bearings of an unknown size and from what I can tell they use a completely different system to identify their bearings outside the number
For example a 6006 2SR in SKF could be a 6006LLU ;)
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Update on motor. I replaced the only bad bearing (pulley side) and "tested" it by moving the pulley in directions other than that which gravity pulls it and it still has the same play :/
Worse yet ... it has a rotational knocking and I know the bearings are flush as I measured their clearances when I pressed them in.
Motor Bering replaced ... Again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAxe9dycLxs)
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Are you certain nothing's making contact inside the motor? because that's what it sounds like to me. In one of the clips it also looked like the shaft was moving around inside the bearing I.D., but it could have been a video-artifact thing.
I realize it's expensive etc, but have you considered replacing the motor? Seems like you've definitely gotten your money's worth out of that one. :)
Ray
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Seems like you've definitely gotten your money's worth out of that one. :)
How have I got my money's worth out of a motor with only 13k miles on it :/ I ride at least 13k miles a year ... I can't see spending 2000 a year to ride my bike < 13k miles :*(
I have priced "new" SR motors (since I have a size 6 controller) and they are 1500-2000 ... which is why I am trying to rectify my situation without spending money on a motor as I would much rather spend the money on faster chargers ;)
Are you certain nothing's making contact inside the motor? because that's what it sounds like to me. In one of the clips it also looked like the shaft was moving around inside the bearing I.D., but it could have been a video-artifact thing.
The first most recent clip showing the bearing play the plat is free and simply sitting on the axial / shaft. This was done to illustrate the amount of play now present in the bearing.
The second most recent clip (where the motor is completely back together with a new bearing) I am illustrating the axial play and a knocking noise on a specific point of rotation. The knock noise is the bearing.
I used a multi-meter to check for continuity between the pates in the motor and the axial / rotor and didn't find any grounding issues. I also don't see any wear patterns near the edges of the coil wound plates. I haven't tried to remove the entire rotor as I am not sure how to do this without damaging the motor.
That said ... no I don't know for sure there is contact being made but I suspect it isn't.
Let me know your thoughts given this clarification.
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Shouldn't a new bearing be smooth and with minimal play? You should be able to check this before you put it in the motor. If it is defective, it should make the same noises and wobble outside as it does installed. I'm not an expert on bearings, but that much play seems excessive to me. Isn't there a way to control the amount of play? By tightening some retaining nut or something? On rollerblades, which use similar type of bearings (just smaller), the amount of play is controlled by how much the axel bolts are tightened, and there is a sweet spot where there is virtually no play and the bearing ins freely...
Also, if you mark the position of the bearing relative to the stator and the rotor, keep the stator and the rotor in the same position as today and remount the bearing but rotate it clockwise by say 180 degrees vs. how it is now, will the noise point also rotate 180 degrees from where it is now? If it does, then it is a bearing issue. If the noise stays in the same spot, it is a motor issue.
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How have I got my money's worth out of a motor with only 13k miles on it
I hear ya ! Hey, it's not like it's a modified motor that's spent much time sucking grit through itself under race conditions. :)
Ray
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I hear ya ! Hey, it's not like it's a modified motor that's spent much time sucking grit through itself under race conditions. :)
For less than 600 miles ;)
I suspect it has been more "damaged" by sucking dirt / grit / sand / salt / chemicals from 13k miles of commuting on the east coast year round than anything else lol
Ventilating these motors makes a lot of sense for racing ... but I am still unsure it makes sense for commuting where it snows annually. At least not the way this one is ventilated. And with the new IPM motors I am not sure there will be a demand for my "lightly used" racing motor lol
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I haven't tried to remove the entire rotor as I am not sure how to do this without damaging the motor.
Since apparently the LH motor side cover comes right off, I assume the RH rotor-shaft end is held captive by the RH side cover and/or encoder, is that correct? And sliding the shaft & side cover together out the RH side of the motor housing is an OMG-these-magnets-are-strong scraping / scary event? Or am I just way off base?
Ray