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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Doug S on March 16, 2015, 10:34:52 AM
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I have a 2014 SR, one of the first, if not the first available to the public (I put my deposit down in October 2013, the day the SR was announced). I've been positively and proudly vociferous in my praise of the brand and the model...it's been an incredible joy to own and to ride.
But I'm beginning to wonder if I can continue saying that.
Earlier today, I had a guy come up to me and pepper me with question after question about the bike, which has happened before, and which I love. I honestly elucidated point after point, and as is usual in my experience EVERY point is in favor of the EV, until the very last question. "What did you pay for it, $6000?" came the question. "No", I answered, "it was $17,000". No apologies for facts. It did cost $17,000.
"Wow."
"Yeah, it's a little pricey, but I've ridden it almost 12,000 miles in the last 13 months, and I figure I've saved around 50c per mile over driving my car. So I've saved well over $5000; that's pretty good return on investment in my book."
The look of astonishment softened. "Yeah, that's not too bad," came the answer. This guy gets it. It may take a while, but like any good investment, it pays for itself, even in the most narrow view -- dollar for dollar. The intangibles don't need to be measured...it's a good investment in the strictest terms. I doubt this gentleman can afford a Zero at present prices, but he's a customer fairly soon. He gets it, he sees the benefits. When he can afford the upfront cost to save some longterm money, he'll spring for it. He wishes he could now, and sees the wisdom in stretching to do it. All Zero needs to do is get the price down within his grasp. The untapped market potential is really, really big.
So I was feeling really good about my decision to spring for the best available solution, when my bike died later this evening. I'd run to the local 7-11 for a quick bite, and the bike refused to take me home...it wouldn't "start". I had to call the local tow truck, he was an idiot and wound up turning my bike on its side, and the bike still doesn't run. The "charging" indicator on the dash won't turn off, which leads me to believe that the failure is related to the charger, which was replaced just a few weeks ago (bike wouldn't charge). Of course, if the bike thinks it's charging, it won't give you any power.
So what caused the failure? Can't be sure, but I'd washed the bike earlier, first time since the new charger was installed. It ran fine from the car wash home, but then wouldn't "start" later when I wanted to run to the local minimart. But I pushed and tweaked a few buttons and it did start, and got me there just fine...and then adamantly refused to take me home.
So I've owned the bike for 13 months and almost 12,000 miles now. First shop time that happened was when Zero took it back under recall and replaced the motor, which cost me nothing, unless you count the week's worth of driving the car instead of riding the bike...which is, in fact, a real expense. I figure I save about $20 per day riding the bike over driving the car, so a week out of action for the bike costs me around $100 in real costs.
Then the rear tire had to be replaced; of course that's normal maintenance.
But then the rear shock failed, which was a warranty repair, again costing me "nothing", by which I mean only the cost of driving the car to work for three days instead of saving money riding the bike.
Then the front tire and brake pads had to be replaced, of course normal maintenance again. If you don't expect normal expenses, you're an idiot.
But then one day, I went out to ride to work and the gauge still said 34%, which is what it had said the night before. Obviously it hadn't charged overnight. A warranty repair gave me a new, "free" charger, notwithstanding the $80 cost of towing the bike to the shop, and another week of driving my car to work. That's a $180 "free" warranty repair, by my accounting.
This evening, it failed again, for the first time actually leaving me stranded away from home. I suspect the new charger failed, though I don't have any proof (though I'm an EE and pretty good at this sort of diagnosis).
I really, really don't want to start hating this bike. I want to ride it, and continue loving it, and continue to have reason to love it. It's still a wicked hot rod, and actually still saves me a ton of money. But the inconvenience factor is mounting, and the expenses of having it not operate really reliably are starting to add up. I've always felt pretty smug about my purchase over my brother's Yamaha cruiser (Harley wannabe), which of course has much higher fuel and maintenance costs than my ride. Or does it? You can't pay for many tows with a couple of oil changes. You can replace a LOT of spark plugs for the cost of a week's downtime.
I know it still qualifies as an early model. I know I'm still an early adopter. But I also know that the primary arguments against the bike are range, recharging time and initial cost. I refute the first argument (range) by explaining that the bike meets my commuting needs and a fair amount beyond, so it meets 95% of my needs in spite of limited range. Recharging time isn't an issue for me; recharging overnight works just great, again for 95% of my needs. But the only argument against initial cost is saved costs over the life of the vehicle, and I'm beginning to lose that argument. If my bike breaks down a lot, and requires a lot of "free" $180 repairs, it's really not cashing in the lower running cost argument. So far...well, it seems to be breaking down a lot. Nobody would be impressed with my bike's reliability record.
I worry that it's only going get worse. A failed shock absorber is one thing, but it's a cheap Chinese unit, and it failed at 9000 miles. What are the odds that the new one is going to last significantly longer? If the charger's failed twice now, just a few weeks apart, can I trust it longterm? The signs aren't good. AND, of course, those $180 "free" warranty repairs aren't going to go on forever. When the bike is out of warranty, the full cost of any and all repairs will fall directly on you-know-who's shoulders.
I'm probably just disillusioned by a bad day. It's never good when your ride arrives home on a flatbed, and it doesn't make for warm fuzzy feelings. But so far, the Zero has spent far more time on a flatbed than any other vehicle I've ever owned, and it has a ways to go to make up any ground. I love my bike very, very much, but it's disappointing me too. I worry that the (REAL) costs per mile are still too high to defeat the initial cost argument, and that pretty much loses the whole argument.
The fact is, my brother's ICE bike requires some regular maintenance, but given those, it's astoundingly reliable. Any of us would be appalled by an ICE vehicle that required towing more than once in 10,000 miles -- or even once. In reality, if an ICE motorcycle required towing even once before 50,000 miles, I'd be very disappointed in it. It's a very high bar they've set, with the hundred years of development they've had, and so far, my Zero just isn't clearing it.
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Having a repair / service Manual to help fault find and to be able to do post warranty repairs would give some assurance and confidence in Zero long term ownership.
please add your views to the topic.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4457.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4457.0)
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Just trying to be helpful and reduce those towing charges.
You might see about the 'AAA Plus RV' plan, which offers motorcycle towing.
Check it out on the website:
http://www.aaawa.com/membership/membership_types.asp?zip=98021&stateprov=wa&city=bothell&devicecd=PC (http://www.aaawa.com/membership/membership_types.asp?zip=98021&stateprov=wa&city=bothell&devicecd=PC)
Towing is covered for up to 100 miles, I didn't see a limitation on the number of tows/year, the RV extends the benefits of AAA Plus membership to cover licensed motorhomes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers and motorcycles. Includes boat trailers, animal trailers, etc. All of this for around $150 I think.
It adds piece-of-mind knowing that if something breaks down when you're away (even up to 100 miles away), the towing back to your place or to the shop is covered. Also, check your insurance plan, I know that Safeco has a towing provision in their motorcycle policy.
Bummer about the feeling of loving your bike, but also not trusting it at the same time.
I've had that same feeling with an ICE moto of Italian heritage.
I kept it well maintained like you do yours, yet it has left me stranded more than a few times.
It'll be interesting to hear if the new charger failed again; two failures of new equipment certainly leaves doubts.
.
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I don't think you can justify purchasing a Zero in terms of cost. If it was your only mode of transportation...maybe, but there are much cheaper, very capable bikes like the Ninja 300 for example and you would never make up the savings in fuel with the Zero ($5600 vs. $16,000). The break even point (for fuel) would be over 250,000 miles and neither bike will still be going at that point.
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I don't think you can justify purchasing a Zero in terms of cost. If it was your only mode of transportation...maybe, but there are much cheaper, very capable bikes like the Ninja 300 for example and you would never make up the savings in fuel with the Zero ($5600 vs. $16,000). The break even point (for fuel) would be over 250,000 miles and neither bike will still be going at that point.
DKW12002,
Could you provide the formula you used to come up with those numbers? (EDIT) I just realized you said "fuel" break even point.
When I ran the numbers up against a 1500$ bike the maintenance cost was the biggest savings. That and time spent maintenancing the bikes . . . I would suggest looking at your maintenance schedule and the time it takes, or cost if you don't do your own work to have someone do it for you, on any ICE bike vs the electric and you will find if you ride 13k miles a year the electric will pay for itself in about 5 years.
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Just trying to be helpful and reduce those towing charges.
You might see about the 'AAA Plus RV' plan, which offers motorcycle towing.
Check it out on the website:
http://www.aaawa.com/membership/membership_types.asp?zip=98021&stateprov=wa&city=bothell&devicecd=PC (http://www.aaawa.com/membership/membership_types.asp?zip=98021&stateprov=wa&city=bothell&devicecd=PC)
Towing is covered for up to 100 miles, I didn't see a limitation on the number of tows/year, the RV extends the benefits of AAA Plus membership to cover licensed motorhomes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers and motorcycles. Includes boat trailers, animal trailers, etc. All of this for around $150 I think.
It adds piece-of-mind knowing that if something breaks down when you're away (even up to 100 miles away), the towing back to your place or to the shop is covered. Also, check your insurance plan, I know that Safeco has a towing provision in their motorcycle policy.
Bummer about the feeling of loving your bike, but also not trusting it at the same time.
I've had that same feeling with an ICE moto of Italian heritage.
I kept it well maintained like you do yours, yet it has left me stranded more than a few times.
It'll be interesting to hear if the new charger failed again; two failures of new equipment certainly leaves doubts.
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Seconded on AAA RV Plus, great investment, especially with an electric bike. I've gotta assume you're dealing with some of the teething issues that come from having a first year model (I know that SR is based on the S, but I'm guessing there's enough unique components to count as a separate model). As far as costs, I'm not sure comparing it to a Ninja 300 is fair, as it blows away the Ninja in performance. A more equivalent bike would be maybe a Triumph Street Triple or Honda CB1000R. Suddenly, the difference is not so huge. Btw, when the warranty work was done on the shock, was there an option of installing the up-spec 2015 shock, or not really?
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Btw, when the warranty work was done on the shock, was there an option of installing the up-spec 2015 shock, or not really?
Nope. I asked the dealer if the 2015 would fit, he relayed my question to corporate, and the answer came back that it won't. No thoughts on a higher quality replacement part, either.
Regarding operating costs, I'm not trying to construct a purely cost-based reason for buying the bike, I'm simply trying to refute the contention that electric bikes are strictly rich peoples' playthings at this point. I want to make the case that electrics may not QUITE be the vehicles of today, but they're the vehicles of the very near future, as opposed to decades from now. And I'm with Burton that maintenance is the ugly stepchild of the ICE vehicle that nobody wants to talk about, but which has a very real impact if properly taken into account.
But I'm beginning to wonder how much of an advantage we really do enjoy in terms of operating costs.
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Roma the SR just has a higher temperature motor (aka better glue) and a size six controller. Rest of the bike is the same.
I would add to there are SR's which predate the 2014 official releases ... I own one of these 2013 race proven beasts ;)
You also have people who have a FXR already as well as DSR's
If you start comparing small ninja bikes to the zeros you will find after you have to replace the motor on the ninja the zero is still running and has paid for itself based off the calculations I have run. I you compare it to a larger bike as Roma suggested then the savings comes much faster.
Maintenance is the most costly thing to a motorcycle rider who takes car of their rides. If a dealer does it you are looking at 90/hr on average. If you do it yourself you are spending your free time, which isn't free, doing the work. I have 46k miles on my ninja 250 and I did all the maintenance on the bike as required myself and know first hand how long things can take to maintain.
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Roma the SR just has a higher temperature motor (aka better glue) and a size six controller. Rest of the bike is the same.
I would add to there are SR's which predate the 2014 official releases ... I own one of these 2013 race proven beasts ;)
You also have people who have a FXS already as well as DSR's
If you start comparing small ninja bikes to the zeros you will find after you have to replace the motor on the ninja the zero is still running and has paid for itself based off the calculations I have run. I you compare it to a larger bike as Roma suggested then the savings comes much faster.
Maintenance is the most costly thing to a motorcycle rider who takes car of their rides. If a dealer does it you are looking at 90/hr on average. If you do it yourself you are spending your free time, which isn't free, doing the work. I have 46k miles on my ninja 250 and I did all the maintenance on the bike as required myself and know first hand how long things can take to maintain.
Edited for you
The FXR doesn't exist, well kinda....FXS is the mortard coming soon; we dubbed mine a "r" "cuz if your not first your last" ;D
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Another option for towing is the AMA "MoTow" service that you get as a member. They towed my dead SR from home to the dealer for free. One tow of 35 miles or less per seven days.
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/membership/amaroadsideassistance (http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/membership/amaroadsideassistance)
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Another option for towing is the AMA "MoTow" service that you get as a member. They towed my dead SR from home to the dealer for free. One tow of 35 miles or less per seven days.
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/membership/amaroadsideassistance (http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/membership/amaroadsideassistance)
That is what I have. But fortunately have not needed to use the towing service for any of my electric motorcycles. (All either being pretty reliable - or at least having the decency to expire in my garage.) The only time I needed it was when my Aprilia RS50 blew up. :o
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Edited for you
The FXR doesn't exist, well kinda....FXS is the mortard coming soon; we dubbed mine a "r" "cuz if your not first your last" ;D
I thought any Zero bike hot-rodded to have the size 6 controller got the "R" on it ;)
Maybe we should use an "x" instead since were the experimental bikes. So I could say I have a 2013 Sx and you could say you have an FXx ... idk, I just know we came first and there are a couple of bikes like mine which are still racing.
With the advent of a "real" SR model though I suspect many of the electric racers will adopt the newer models ... for those racing stock bikes.
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Also there is the longevity of little engines, my experience of sub 250cc engines is usually around 50k+ miles they tend to start drastically falling apart, and require either a major overhaul, or scrapping and replacing.
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I'm hoping that the majority of bikes, of all ages, are still working fine. One of the positive points of Electric Bikes over ICE bikes is the simplicity of the set up and thus good reliability. But we have all taken a leap of faith in purchasing these bikes, at some expense. I hope zero don't let us down, by not looking at such issue's and the affect it has on the brand name. Once one of the big Japanese manufacturers joins the game, which I'm sure they will at some point, then Zero will be lost, if they haven't already cornered the market with proven ultra reliable bikes.
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Edited for you
The FXR doesn't exist, well kinda....FXS is the mortard coming soon; we dubbed mine a "r" "cuz if your not first your last" ;D
I thought any Zero bike hot-rodded to have the size 6 controller got the "R" on it ;)
Maybe we should use an "x" instead since were the experimental bikes. So I could say I have a 2013 Sx and you could say you have an FXx ... idk, I just know we came first and there are a couple of bikes like mine which are still racing.
With the advent of a "real" SR model though I suspect many of the electric racers will adopt the newer models ... for those racing stock bikes.
You were the prototype/s
I'm just a garage experiment; you don't have to worry about hurting batteries hence why the sr is now here to stay rather than just a s race bike Mine mod will never be produced until batteries are monsters, they are close but not strong enough. 14 bricks will be better because of the contractor vs the fet board so they will last much longer than the average fet on my batteries
Or we could use the FX m for modified. And my last name is Magranet so I could be satisfied 8)
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So, one question to the group. I did remove the rubber cover on the front of the battery box, and was expecting to see two buttons, both of which should be depressed to reset the BMS. But my bike (a 2014 SR) has only one button and a connector (I'm assuming to connect to the BMS). I did a search and I see that where someone had said there were two buttons, they were referring to the 2015 SR. Of course the owner's manual doesn't say anything about it. And, of course, the button is recessed and it would be virtually impossible to get two human-sized hands in there to depress two buttons anyhow.
Does anybody know how this function works on the 2014? Does the single button have to be held down for some length of time? Or is there some other way of resetting the BMS?
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Other than a free oil change and recalls, and a tire change (about $150 for tire plus service charge) on my 2013 Zero S, I haven't taken any motorcycles in for service in a long time. I did buy a maintenance contract on my 2011 Gixxer 1000 that cost $1500. I put 11,000 miles on the bike in about 11 months and the maintenance service transferred for an additional 2 years so that was built into the trade-in when I sold the bike, so I'm not sure what I really paid for that. I did it to have the valve adjustment, but never got to that mileage so all I really got for my $1500 was 4 oil and filter changes 3 out of 4 new spark plugs (the 4th one was going to wait for the valve check) and an air filter, chain adjustments and other minor adjustments. I know how to all routine maintenance including valve checks which is all my bikes have needed. Plus I like to work on them. I have just under 10,000 miles on my Zero and haven't had any issues other than an occasional rogue warning light coming on, but that was before the firmware recall 5,000 miles ago or so. I did own a 2011 Zero S and the brushes went out on that bike under warranty, but that bike was very light and I pushed and coasted home and since my dealer is only 4 miles from my home, he picked up the broken bike from my home. Rather than deal with putting another brushed motor in the bike, I traded it in, after a year or so.
It's probably hard to figure maintenance costs on a Zero, but I suspect the maintenance costs after 2 years will be higher than most ICE bikes, but that's just a guess. If you have to replace chargers, motors, battery cells, it's going to be many hundreds of dollars and significant down time unless you can diagnose and work on the bike yourself. Feast or famine, I suppose. There is one other issue to consider. That Ninja 300 I mentioned has a very good resale value. I don't think the resale value on Zeros is very good, so that's perhaps a negative. Like you say, when they work they are fantastic, but when they don't it's a downer. I will probably just ride mine until it breaks or until I want to trade in for another Zero or some other motorcycle. Personally, I doubt I would put $1000 into fixing my broken Zero once it's out of warranty in a couple months. I'd just trade it for whatever I could get, be done with it and hop on another bike. I have always thought of Zeros as expensive toys that will cost lots of money to run.
OOps. Just remembered I did have one minor issue on my Zero. A solenoid went out so some of the lights didn't work. The dealer fixed that promptly by picking up the bike and returning it to me, which was very easy for me and why I forget I even had the problem.
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Maybe this is naive, but have you tried contacting Zero directly? There's a contact form on their site, with a phone number.
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Maybe this is naive, but have you tried contacting Zero directly? There's a contact form on their site, with a phone number.
I was going to do that, but when I got home from work this evening, the bike is fine. We had a nice hot day today, and I'm guessing whatever it was got dried out thoroughly.
No more water baths for the bike! Waterless car washes only from now on. Still not an encouraging sign that the bike isn't water resistant enough to wash it with a hose.
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I have never used a hose on my bikes. Only water in a bucket or from a spray bottle set to mist. Same for my zero.
For extreme grime (with ICE typically)
I start with WD40 and a tooth brush
Then hit it with a oil based degreaser
Then hit it with a water based degreaser
Then hit it with soapy water
Then hit it with water.
For the zero I simply get a brush / sponge and some soapy water and a squirt bottle. Not taking any chances lol
That said I have had this bike in some serious down pours at 75mph and haven't had an issue.
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I talked about some rogue warning lights. Those occurred after I got caught in a driving rain. The bike never stopped, but it was flashing red and green lights for over a day even with a 24 hour fan blowing on the bike, until I took it on the highway and got some good air flow up under the seat. I don't use a car wash or even a garden hose other than on the wheels and up under the fenders. Several people have reported issues from moisture.
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The Red and Green flashing lights are a frame and/or BMS isolation error.
The BMS isolation error can also be checked in the BMS lights as well, which will flash its own error code (check your manual for the code and if you bike reports this error)
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The Red and Green flashing lights are a frame and/or BMS isolation error.
The BMS isolation error can also be checked in the BMS lights as well, which will flash its own error code (check your manual for the code and if you bike reports this error)
I have found water collecting on top of the 35 pin connector on the controller causes this problem as well.
Been meaning to isolate this part of the bike to prevent this behavior.
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Maybe this is naive, but have you tried contacting Zero directly? There's a contact form on their site, with a phone number.
I was going to do that, but when I got home from work this evening, the bike is fine. We had a nice hot day today, and I'm guessing whatever it was got dried out thoroughly.
No more water baths for the bike! Waterless car washes only from now on. Still not an encouraging sign that the bike isn't water resistant enough to wash it with a hose.
Well I always felt insecure using pressured water on mine. I drove it a few times in heavy rain and didn't have any issue. I assume the rain is not getting in the sensitive parts of the bike, but the pressured water does.
I bought a local product here called Sanszo (http://sanszo.com/en/home (http://sanszo.com/en/home)) and it does a great job, you probably have something similar in US. It does take more time than just using a hose, but this product wax at the same time so it last longer.
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The Red and Green flashing lights are a frame and/or BMS isolation error.
The BMS isolation error can also be checked in the BMS lights as well, which will flash its own error code (check your manual for the code and if you bike reports this error)
I have found water collecting on top of the 35 pin connector on the controller causes this problem as well.
Been meaning to isolate this part of the bike to prevent this behavior.
Yeah, I don't like the look of those "filler" pins on the harness side of the connector myself. I'm fairly certain (looking at your wiring diagram) that the pre-charge current goes in through this connecter as well, so all sort of non-starting badness can happen if this connector gets a bit too damp.
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lol I missed the part about you using a hose on it. You're kidding right? ;D
I clean my electric bike with this, courtesy of my Amsoil sponsor. Works the balls.
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/other-products/cleaners-and-protectants/miracle-wash-waterless-wash-and-wax-spray/ (http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/other-products/cleaners-and-protectants/miracle-wash-waterless-wash-and-wax-spray/)
Call me crazy, but intentionally dousing a hundred volts or so with water doesn't make much sense to me... nor does consternation when it starts acting wonky. If it were my bike I'd have every connector and boot apart at this point, cleaned, dried and silicon waterproofed. As any bike gets older, the boots and insulation degrades and gets dirty, which compromises both their waterproof-ness and their insulation ability.
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lol I missed the part about you using a hose on it. You're kidding right? ;D
No I'm not kidding. How many people wash their vehicles that way every day? It's true most vehicles don't have 100V electrical systems, but they sure do have electrical systems, and they survive quite well. And come on, if the bike can't stand up to gentle hose washing, how's it supposed to survive being ridden in the rain?
Ironically, because CA has been having such water problems, a while back I got some of the waterless car wash stuff and have been using it for most of the life of the bike. It's more expensive, but I love it and intend to continue using it. It's only because I ran out recently and haven't received my new bottle yet that I hose-washed it last Sunday.
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I washed my 2014 Zero this weekend using a light spray from my garden hose, along with some auto wash soap solution. I tried to be careful with the spray, but I apparently managed to get it somewhere into the works that didn't appreciate it. When I started up my bike to ride it around to help dry it off (after first drying with an electric air-blower), I noticed that my "custom" programming had reverted to the original factory custom programming. When I arrived back home, I got my "smart" phone and used the Zero app to reprogram it back to what I wanted. Then I parked the bike, turned it off and plugged it in. Immediately all of the LCD symbols on the screen started flashing. So I turned it back on and they still kept flashing. So I turned the ignition off and it kept on flashing - before finally stopping and reverting to the normal charging routine. Then I recalled that is what the bike does when you reprogram it and shut off the ignition too soon. Anyway everything is back to normal. But I do think I will stick to waterless car wash spray (which I have lots of) from now on.
It is a good thing that it never rains in California. Riding in the rain would likely be a real shock to my Zero. ::)
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... How many people wash their vehicles that way every day?
Well, I sure can't argue with that logic. ::)
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Rain and getting wet is one thing, but intentionally spraying water under pressure in areas that might have O-rings or dielectric grease seals that you could wash away under pressure just sounds like it's asking for trouble. But I don't know, there's always something better to do in my day it seems than to wash my bike. In almost 3 years of owning my Zero I've never washed it once. But because it doesn't have oil flying around, it doesn't really ever get dirty enough that I want to waste water/time washing it. I'd rather spend that time riding it somewhere ;)
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Terry come to VA during Jan / Feb and you will wash your bike ;)
We use some nasty stuff in our road salt. It took me an hour to get 90% of it off the bike since I know how corrosive it is.
You clean it off, or off come your fasteners ;)
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In almost 3 years of owning my Zero I've never washed it once.
I have to wash my bike weekly, there is simply way too much salt on the roads during the winter to not to. Even ACF-50 struggles to keep the salt at bay.
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If you must wash your bike use only a garden hose. NO Pressure washer.
Totally avoid the electrical connector areas. Wipe these down by hand with no direct water pressure aimed at them.
Do not spray water up under the (faux) fuel tank area.
Do not spray water near the battery interface connectors.
Do not spray water under the seat where the Controller resides.
While these are, for the most part, water resistant forced water can get into even the dielectric grease sealed connectors.
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In almost 3 years of owning my Zero I've never washed it once.
I have to wash my bike weekly, there is simply way too much salt on the roads during the winter to not to. Even ACF-50 struggles to keep the salt at bay.
Doesn't sound fun at all. The high price to pay I guess to live somewhere that gets cold in winter and has seasons. ;)
But I agree with moto ryder, just a garden hose and I wouldn't even use a spray nozzle. then wipe it off. Even on gas bikes you aren't supposed to use pressurized water. It removes grease from the chain and other seals.
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But I agree with moto ryder, just a garden hose and I wouldn't even use a spray nozzle. then wipe it off.
I hate to disappoint your guys, but that's all I did last Sunday, and it wound up making the bike fail. I do use an attachment on the end of the hose so I can shut it off, but I have it set to "shower" and with the pressure I have at my place, it pretty much dribbles out when it's on. Honestly, if my bike can't survive what I did to it last Sunday, it's never going to survive a good rainstorm. That's unacceptable on any vehicle whether it's battery, gasoline, hydrogen or fusion powered.
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This may not apply to the Zero bikes because their flasher units may be better protected but it was a problem on my Zero powered e-trike. Every so often my turn signal flasher unit would die and I would have to replace it. Each time I opened the cover to examine, and it would be fried near an IC. Finally it dawned on me that the trike had been wet, every time, just before I lost the flasher. The last time, before replacing it, I carefully sealed the unit with silicone sealant. I haven't had a problem since.
This has not happened on my FX but the flasher unit Zero uses may already be sealed or just in a better protected location. On my e-trike it was out in the open.
Something to be aware of,
Trikester
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I hate to disappoint your guys, but that's all I did last Sunday, and it wound up making the bike fail. I do use an attachment on the end of the hose so I can shut it off, but I have it set to "shower" and with the pressure I have at my place, it pretty much dribbles out when it's on. Honestly, if my bike can't survive what I did to it last Sunday, it's never going to survive a good rainstorm. That's unacceptable on any vehicle whether it's battery, gasoline, hydrogen or fusion powered.
Then I'd say it again. If it were my bike, whatever the circumstances, I'd undo every connector, every boot, clean it, dry it and seal it.
There's no doubt in my mind you have a leak, hole, unseated rubber cover, dirt, or moisture trapped inside of something that moisture is supposed to be on the outside of.
This isn't particularly unusual. I've seen time and time again on bikes of every description - connectors that are just a bit unseated or cracked, or dirt is interfering with the seal. I've seen boots that were never fit properly to the mating surfaces at the factory. I've seen wires where moisture has migrated 6" down the inside of the insulation, corroding everything as it went. It's not cause for an existential crisis, just some careful detail work, and as the bike gets older it's going to see more and more of it. And yes, a 100V (or whatever it is) system with a BMS is going to be a hell of a lot more picky than anything on a gas bike.
Typically after I've gotten done doing this, I've done a better job fixing and sealing than the mfr. did, and it's not a problem again. In some cases, like the front fender wash onto my coil in a downpour, on my SRX, it's a 50/50 shot as to whether the Gods of Motorcycles are smiling down on me that day. 8)
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I do want to add - I know everybody is all "electric bikes need no maintenance" and all, but I go through all my connections, especially the HV ones, about once a year. I clean them, check them, seal them and make sure they're nice and tight and secure. As you know, being an EE and all, as soon as a connection starts degrading it goes downhill fast, especially if there's arcing involved.
If memory serves, when Terry first visited the Zero Homeworld they put his bike up on a thermal camera, found a bunch of HV connectors that were making heat, and cleaned them up. He said it made him go faster, but he says that about everything. ;D
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The first thing I did when I started to "work" on my bike after getting it shipped here from CA is unplug everything and apply a ton of dielectric grease :)
Now I am looking to make a mostly sealed sheet metal container for all my wires (which sit on top of my battery) and a cover for my controller to keep rain and snow out when I am riding.
I also tend to check electrical connections years like teddillard since I ride year round in all weather conditions on all my bikes. And, any time I take a connector off for any reason I put more dielectric on it before putting it back on ;)
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I do want to add - I know everybody is all "electric bikes need no maintenance" and all, but I go through all my connections, especially the HV ones, about once a year. I clean them, check them, seal them and make sure they're nice and tight and secure. As you know, being an EE and all, as soon as a connection starts degrading it goes downhill fast, especially if there's arcing involved.
If memory serves, when Terry first visited the Zero Homeworld they put his bike up on a thermal camera, found a bunch of HV connectors that were making heat, and cleaned them up. He said it made him go faster, but he says that about everything. ;D
If you were to formalize this advice, what would you recommend? Could you put together a howto video? I have past electronics and power distribution experience as a naval technician, but my experience is really stale by now.
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My Suzuki bandits (all three of the ones I owned) were also a sod for dying in the rain, usually ending up with me crawling home on 2-3 cylinders, or on the back of a flatbed.
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When I was cleaning my '13 S last winter, I used a sponge and wiped the whole bike down.
It wasn't thorough enough, apparently, because my fasteners still got salt rash.
That's a real problem for northeast users.
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Just a random thought.
If we cannot get a service manual for X reasons, why don't we, as a collaborate group, create our own manual?
Pipe dream I know, but when we do work on our bikes photo it, and put it up here in a thread (maybe in a new sub-forum called "Zero Maintenance" ) it would be useful as well as other forum members might then know a better way of doing something and as such we would be able to share knowledge much more easily.
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Until zero releases one we have to do the best we can. Users here love there zero when there working as advertised, and like wise hate them when they see their investment sitting idle for months due to lack of parts or dealer training.
I think Tesla has chosen the correct model , sale and support direct to customer, No dealers. but they have the scale and will to make it work.
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I have been a member of the Chain Gang forum (that caters to BMW F650 single owners) for the past 16 years. BMW never really wants people to work on their bikes, just bring it in to the dealer and hand over your credit card. So service and repair information was hard to come by during the early days of those models. As it turned out, Funduro (like me) and F650GS owners were all a bunch of cheapskates and were not about to pay to have our bikes serviced and repaired. So several members pulled their bikes apart and put them back together again. Then they documented their work and submitted it to the forum as a maintenance FAQ. It has accumulated a huge amount of information over the years and everyone seems to be happy with the information. I have never heard a single complaint that the information provided was incorrect. So such a system can work, at least for IC motorcycles that most people are familiar working on and that do not require specialized training, skills or equipment to service.
But I would have to agree with Ted that if you don't know what you are doing when it comes to the electrical power systems in electric vehicles, you could do a lot of damage to expensive parts if you misunderstood even the best of instructions. But in the end, more information is better than less information and it is up to the user of this information to take responsibility for the results of their actions. ;)
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but also, consider what mis-information is going to do for Zero. You start a "service manual" on a forum of users and backyard mechanics, it fairly demands that Zero is going to have to weigh in and deal with erroneous information. If they want to start a support forum themselves, that's one thing, but I wouldn't, as them, welcome an unauthorized effort.
Well that has a very simple solution: release a damn manual.
It's not like we have much of an option.
Other than telling prospective owners "hey, this is great but when it breaks, you really can't get it fixed. so hold off on buying one"
Edit: and I've had 3 or 4 interested people in the "bike group" here at Oracle decide to hold off to see how mine gets fixed.
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BMW never really wants people to work on their bikes, just bring it in to the dealer and hand over your credit card. So service and repair information was hard to come by during the early days of those models.
That's fine, and it doesn't surprise me that BMW would prefer that; service is very a lucrative business for a vehicle manufacturer. But Zero has, at best, a spotty record in terms of dealer-supplied service as well. There are many owners who live entirely too far from their dealers, and there are far too few dealers overall. In addition, Zero probably isn't making any money from service, since their dealers are all freelancers. So it does seem reasonable to me that Zero should do everything possible to assist in people helping themselves whenever they can.
But I would have to agree with Ted that if you don't know what you are doing when it comes to the electrical power systems in electric vehicles, you could do a lot of damage to expensive parts if you misunderstood even the best of instructions.
That's true for just about anything, especially vehicles of all types. Gasoline is toxic, highly flammable, and the fumes can make you pass out. We're just much more used to working with it than high-voltage batteries.
But in the end, more information is better than less information and it is up to the user of this information to take responsibility for the results of their actions. ;)
Bingo. If not for all the ****ing lawyers in this country, manufacturers wouldn't have to be so paranoid about passing on information of value to their customers.
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If I hosed down my ICE car and it stopped working I would have the manufacturer repair it under warranty. If the Zero can't survive a light hosing without needing to be stripped down every few months I will find another mode of transport.
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If memory serves, the Zero is running a 100VDC powertrain delivering about 600A.
Anybody who thinks that's just about the same as working on a gas bike is a making the best possible case for not releasing a shop manual I could imagine. Lawyers and the people who use them notwithstanding.
And to be perfectly clear, in my earlier posts I said very specifically "If it were my bike...". Probably a bad choice of words, but the purpose was to illustrate the troubleshooting that I'd use to attack the problem. I've built 4 electric bikes, and have over 45 years experience working on gas bikes.
If you do not understand how to work on high-voltage systems safely, please leave it to people who do.
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Then I'd say it again. If it were my bike, whatever the circumstances, I'd undo every connector, every boot, clean it, dry it and seal it...This isn't particularly unusual. I've seen time and time again on bikes of every description - connectors that are just a bit unseated or cracked, or dirt is interfering with the seal.
Sure, we've all seen such things. But on successful, mainstream vehicles, only as the rare exception. Are you REALLY saying I should have to personally strip down my newly-purchased vehicle and seal every connector before I can confidently wash it with a hose? I can't believe you're really suggesting that. Would you recommend doing that to the owner of a new Ford F150? Assuming your answer is no, why not?
If you'd answer yes, you have an extremely low bar for vehicle reliability. I think the huge majority of vehicle owners in this country would very, very strongly disagree with you.
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I'd agree with Ted. I personally poured water out of many a connector to restore a bike's electrical system to working order. Not in the last 5 years, thankfully.
I had a high-tech but improperly assembled connector on my SV-650 cause my speedometer & dash to fail in the first heavy rain.
Edit: to clarify, you shouldn't have to strip apart every connector, but if you start getting electrical faults, that's the place to start. And no, you shouldn't have this problem on a brand new vehicle, but feces occurs.
Pet peeve: And that's the good thing about a service manual. They tell you where all the connectors are, even the REALLY hidden ones.
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Rights to Repair.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act
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newly-purchased vehicle and seal every connector before I can confidently wash it with a hose?
Depends, Duccati or Suzuki, it would'nt be a bad idea...
Every single damn Suzuki I've owned (x5) failed due to a problem with a connector, hell I remember once riding a YZF-750 down the road wondering why the dash had gone partly dead, and "what was that new light that had come on under the fairing all about?" turned out the "light" was arching inside a connector.
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Sure, we've all seen such things. But on successful, mainstream vehicles, only as the rare exception. Are you REALLY saying I should have to personally strip down my newly-purchased vehicle and seal every connector before I can confidently wash it with a hose? I can't believe you're really suggesting that. Would you recommend doing that to the owner of a new Ford F150? Assuming your answer is no, why not?
If you'd answer yes, you have an extremely low bar for vehicle reliability. I think the huge majority of vehicle owners in this country would very, very strongly disagree with you.
I'm not here to spar with you. In fact, I'm having trouble figuring why I'm here at all.
You don't own a mainstream vehicle. You don't own a F150. You don't own a "newly purchased vehicle", even. It's not a "rare exception". Even if your bike was made by Yamaha, it's electric, not gas. I'm not "suggesting" anything. I think I was quite clear stating my experience. We're not talking about "vehicle owners", we're talking about electric motorcycle owners, a subset of a subset. I'm not even saying you should wash it with a hose.
If you want to wallow in the fact that your year-old "maintenance free" $17k bike needs some attention, be my guest. If you want to fix it and go riding, I've given you my advice.
If you want an appliance, get a Toyota.
Done.
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I have no problem working on my bike. I don't expect any physical piece of equipment to be truly zero maintenance.
My personal problem with my Zero is that I have no information on it. Not only do I not know where most of the connectors are, but they're all these 00-size high-amp conductors running around, and I really want some advice from a service manual on how to treat them. But... I can't get a service manual.
I do know in other high power applications, the order in which you unplug things can become important to not letting all the magic smoke out, like in mainframe printers with kilowatt size power supplies.
I want to know "Do this. Don't do that. Unplug A *before* you unplug B. Don't let X touch Y. Remove fuse F before working on system Z. Use current shunt tool Y before doing A, B, or C."
For example, when installing my power tank, it mentioned I should use what looked like a current shunt (a connector with a 100W lightbulb attached) "to drain stranded currents as described in the service manual"
Since I didn't have a manual, it was "whelp, guess that's not happening, eh..."
To misquote Samuel L. Jackson: "A manual, motherfucker! Do you have it?"
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Before messing around with ANY high voltage lines on your Zero be sure power (and charging) are removed.
You can verify there is no High Voltage present (outside the battery housing) by measuring across the large lugs on the auxiliary charge port.
Look for 116VDC (max). If it's not there it's OK to work the high voltage areas of the bike. (EXCEPT inside the battery itself)
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I think that because high voltage electric EV's are quite different from normal vehicles the manufactures assume that if they do not provide a repair or maintenance manual then obviously you won't try to work on it yourself. Now obviously that is not correct but I could see a manufacture thinking that way. If this was Yamaha and it was there Ebike they would have a service manual without a doubt. But because all of Zero has been dedicated to Ebikes they don't have the culture or experience to know that users demand manuals. Now that is my two cents but I think it is true.
I don't think that Zero thinks of it's self as a bike company; I think it feels it is a tech company. When I called to ask questions about the bikes the tech I talked to at Zero knew a lot about motors and batteries and not so much on the actual motorcycle. I go the distinct feeling that this guy was a computer guy not a bike guy. Where I am going with this is that I think between the lack of manuals and the distinct hydrophobia the bikes are more tech and less motorcycle right now. You would hose down your F150 but most people are not going to open the hood and spray down the engine bay.
I think over the next few years as Zero grows we will see a transition from tech to motorcycle; in fact, it has already begun. Tech support will follow sales. Things are slow now because Zero needs dealers. Dealers sell and fix motorcycles with engines. Zero motorcycles have electric motors and big bad batteries and these dealer mechanics know how to tune carbs and adjust valves but that does not translate into using a multimeter to check for stray currents on a 100VDC line with 00 gauge wire!
Sorry this is more of a rant than anything else!
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Sorry this is more of a rant than anything else!
Seems like this thread has invoked a fair amount of ranting. Probably my fault since I was pretty disappointed when I started it, and strong emotions obviously came out in my original post.
Bottom line: I'm an EE, and I have no problem working on my own machinery, but that doesn't invalidate my original point, which anybody is free to agree or disagree with: In my opinion, Zero has a ways to go before meeting the reliability standard met by most motorcycles, and vehicles in general. Nobody would hesitate to hose-wash any other vehicle (car or motorcycle) with a hose, in fact that's the normal way to keep a vehicle clean. The fact that that seems to have knocked my bike out of commission (if only for a day until it dried out) doesn't speak well of the ability of the bike to resist getting wet.
And that's all I'm saying. Again, I realize Zero is still a small manufacturer with little experience, and I'm still an early adopter. Doesn't mean I shouldn't expect to be able to safely wash my bike.
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I do agree with you. A vehicle with hydrophobia is not going to get along very well in this world. Me however, I think when I get my bike I will water proof everything myself IMMEDIATELY. I don't want to not know what is and isn't spray-able (triple negative! :)). I hope that the FX is more water friendly than the sports bikes but I am not going to risk anything.
Me being an EE myself I know that water can do to electronics and how un-repairable waterlogged PCB's can be so I am going to avoid that whole issue altogether and do it myself. I don't assume anything when it comes to water no matter who makes it be it Ford, Zero, or Yamaha.
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...I know that water can do to electronics and how un-repairable waterlogged PCB's can be so I am going to avoid that whole issue altogether and do it myself. I don't assume anything when it comes to water no matter who makes it be it Ford, Zero, or Yamaha.
wuuut? Good common sense? ...from an engineer? PrePOSTerous. :D (I keeed, I keeed)
As far as "all you're saying", you're simply committing a common logical fallacy, Doug S. Here, this might help: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/)
...specifically, what we who've studied logic (and not "EE") like to call composition/division: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division)
I've had Hondas, Yamahas, Fords, Chevys, BSAs, Triumphs, Ducatis, and who knows what else that have been wonky after a hosing. Everything (well, except the Triumphs and BSAs, and a 1964 Checker Marathon I had for a winter) I consider well protected against moisture, but they all had a couple of untidy connectors, which, once fixed, weren't problems anymore.
You've had a couple of problems with one instance of one product after a year of use, (something, as I've said before, wouldn't surprise me with any vehicle of any type) and you're claiming the product/company "has a ways to go"?
I don't think that's fair (and the only reason I continue to post on this kind-of-inane thread).
Zero and Brammo, for that matter, both make a remarkable product.
All I need to point to is Terry's last few days of his last XC (eastbound) trip, where he weathered some of the worst rain I've ever seen anybody ride in, without a failure. That was truly impressive. Yet see his comment above, again, for some good common sense: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4469.msg29102#msg29102 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4469.msg29102#msg29102)
Unfortunately, not a lot of people get on forums and post "I just WASHED MY BIKE WITH A HOSE and NOTHING HAPPENED!!!" ::)
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I'm sorry if I appear harsh or dismissive, but this thread and the OP baffles me.
First you talk about how some guy on the street doesn't appear to think your bike is worth what you paid for it, you seem to be in some sort of competition with your brother and a completely different type of machine, you've talked yourself into believing this was somehow a financially prudent decision, you claim you're an EE but seem to expect electronics are going to work perfectly for years, you seem to deny the possibility that your particular bike has some random fault, you're ignoring advice to make the problem go away or that it's a problem that doesn't really apply to every Zero ever made, and it appears for all get-out that you want to conclude that Zero (as a company) isn't everything you expected.
I have a friend who's an old chain-smoking machinist bastard who rides a Harley and is an ex-Navy fighter pilot. I ordered my first car - a Mustang 5.0, brandy new. I was bitching and whining about the delivery being delayed a week and how much I paid and how everybody should be treating me like I was god's gift to Ford Motor Company, etc etc. He blew smoke in my face and gave me some advice I remember to this day.
"Just stop it."
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I'm going to stop posting the same point just because one person can't seem to wrap his mind around it....but for that one person, just let me add that I can only post MY experiences here; I can't speak to everybody's experiences, or the total statistical norm for this bike or any other, because those are outside my experience. That's what forums are for, my friend, for people to post their experiences and their opinions on a subject. Believe me, I understand the difference between anecdote and statistical truth, and I understand logical fallacies pretty well, also. But several anecdotes add up to statistical truth; I posted my experience with water infiltration being a problem because it seems clear I'm not the only person who's had that problem. I don't think that's acceptable from a vehicle manufacturer that aspires to become larger and more mainstream, you think it's my fault because I didn't strip my bike down to the frame and redo everything the manufacturer should have done for me. What's "not to understand" about that?
As far as personal styles...well, no comment.
And that's all I have to say on either subject.
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You didn't start with anything suggesting "it seems clear I'm not the only person who's had that problem". As far as "your fault", and "stripping it down to the frame", I didn't say that either. I just told you (very clearly, I might add) how to fix it, and what in my opinion are reasonable expectations based on my considerable experience.
Your idea that a bunch of anecdotal bad experiences on a forum amounts to statistical truth is simply ridiculous.
Thanks for clearing up what forums are for. I've been scratching my head about that all morning. (...guess I was operating under the delusion that people come here to get and give some help. :o)
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I come here to be entertained. ;) And to learn something that I didn't know before about electric motorcycles in general and my Zero in particular. :)
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I know exactly what my maintenance costs will be on the Gixxer 600 I just bought over and above what maintaining a Zero would be...$1500 for 3 years with the Maintenance Contract I bought which includes all the labor and parts specified at specific intervals in the owner's manual. The last two years I've owned my Zero S, I have had no maintenance costs. Fuel costs for the Gixxer are another thing. It gets about 40 mpg on premium gas, so the Zero has a huge advantage there...about 1/10 the cost to run. Of course they are different machines and riding experiences, but I think the advantage in maintenance goes to the Zero. What probably doesn't make up for any of this is the lower resale value of the Zero and initial cost. Oh, the 2-year warranty has probably been a huge factor in savings for Zero owners. Many bikes come with a 1 year warranty. That's advantage for the Zero, but then you have extended warranties on other motorcycles that aren't really very expensive. I think most of us would snatch up a reasonably priced additional 2-year warranty on Zero. I think a few Zero riders had some significant warranty work done during that second year. Lot's to think about when you try to compare different bikes.
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Oh, the 2-year warranty has probably been a huge factor in savings for Zero owners....I think a few Zero riders had some significant warranty work done during that second year.
I've had my 2014 SR since end of January 2014, and other than the recall and expected maintenance items (tires, brake pads) I've had two failures, both of which were taken care of under warranty -- my rear shock failed and the charger failed. But now that you mention it, the charger failed after January of this year, so that was in the second year. But in reality, although it was my gripe that started this thread, I can't complain too much about reliability. Two failed items in 16,000 miles isn't that bad for a relatively new make, especially when they were both covered by the warranty....though I still really think they need to find a way to make their bikes much more resistant to water incursion problems!
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Doug S -
I'm curious... How has your experience been since your posting on this?
I have a 2013 DS 11KW, and it has failed many times (3 or 4 BMS's, a welded contactor, failed current sensor, failed capacitor, intermittent startup failures, spurious shutdowns while at speed). According to my dealer (Harlan), this bike has been a very abnormal case. I also had to invest in AAA Plus RV, and have used it 3 or 4 times. It has been in the shop for almost the last 5 months now... In October 2015 it started failing while at highway speeds (which is a HUGE safety issue) and I almost got hit by an 18 wheeler. So, I pretty much gave up riding it.
To Zero's credit, they ARE trying to resolve it... Albeit, 5+ months is probably unreasonable even for a boutique motorcycle.
In general, I'm just asking for a status update I suppose. Did they take care of you, and has your bike let you down since?
Thanks.
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The only other failure I've had is that the rear shock wore out prematurely again, replaced just before the end of the two-year warranty. It's clearly under-engineered for me; I'm a big guy, though I'm clearly within the weight capacity of the bike. I've begun searching for aftermarket solutions that may be more robust, but there pretty clearly aren't any. I've contacted Zero about the problem, and they've acknowledged that it is a problem, but they haven't proposed a solution to it yet. I'm at 23,000 miles now, and it seems to last just about 10,000 before losing all damping, so I've got time. It may very well just be a matter of rebuilding with higher-quality seals; since they were replaced under warranty both times I didn't even have a chance to investigate a simple rebuild.
They've also clearly upgraded the entire suspension with the Showa components, but they're not compatible -- much different shock mounts. Whether mine could be machined out to accommodate the Showa unit might be something I have to investigate.
Just to re-iterate, I don't feel like I've got any right to complain about reliability. The shock failures haven't stranded me anywhere; the only failure that did immobilize me was the charger failure. In 23,000 miles, I've paid more for new tires than for repairs or for fuel, so I think my bike's been living up to its promise very well. Considering how new and small of a manufacturer Zero is, I'm pretty impressed with the reliability I've experienced.
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The only other failure I've had is that the rear shock wore out prematurely again, replaced just before the end of the two-year warranty. It's clearly under-engineered for me; I'm a big guy, though I'm clearly within the weight capacity of the bike. I've begun searching for aftermarket solutions that may be more robust, but there pretty clearly aren't any. I've contacted Zero about the problem, and they've acknowledged that it is a problem, but they haven't proposed a solution to it yet. I'm at 23,000 miles now, and it seems to last just about 10,000 before losing all damping, so I've got time. It may very well just be a matter of rebuilding with higher-quality seals; since they were replaced under warranty both times I didn't even have a chance to investigate a simple rebuild.
They've also clearly upgraded the entire suspension with the Showa components, but they're not compatible -- much different shock mounts. Whether mine could be machined out to accommodate the Showa unit might be something I have to investigate.
Just to re-iterate, I don't feel like I've got any right to complain about reliability. The shock failures haven't stranded me anywhere; the only failure that did immobilize me was the charger failure. In 23,000 miles, I've paid more for new tires than for repairs or for fuel, so I think my bike's been living up to its promise very well. Considering how new and small of a manufacturer Zero is, I'm pretty impressed with the reliability I've experienced.
To get a showa in the rear of your bike you need the 15/16 swingarm which has lightly wider holes (from the looms of my ds) the 14 police bikes gave the 15/16 swingarm
So then you would have to sit and file the frame to accept the bigger top of the shock or make a tiny adapter bracket that would hold the top bolt, both arnt too bad
Except for all that filing as its quite a few mm off
As far as the guys 13 failing so much; pretty rare! Especially for 13 and ups
Might be a bad harness wrecking your componentry
Least you have a very comprable dealer with harlen!