ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: kensiko on February 23, 2015, 09:50:13 PM
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2015 was a great "upgrade" bike, but we are still waiting for major improvements (EV part).
I heard that the 2016 specs are already defined and that there's something great coming... It's supposed to be kept secret so I don't want to push my source to get more info, but we can speculate.
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I hope something great is coming. 2016 is my target year for replacing my existing bike. Assuming a Zero re-entry to the UK that is...
Based on previous rumours, I'll lay my bets on
- A Sports Fairing Version, with attention paid to drag reduction.
- A onboard fast charging J1772 based option.
I'm less confident about a big increase in battery capacity, as I'm not aware of any sudden battery chemistry improvements that are close to market, though I'm quite happy to be wrong on this account. ;)
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They could try a touring Zero with 20+ kWh battery? OFC it would be heavy, but it would be for touring.
Price would increase to 25000$++ probably.
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They could try a touring Zero with 20+ kWh battery? OFC it would be heavy, but it would be for touring.
Price would increase to 25000$++ probably.
The question is where they put the weight. Lets say they packed in two of the 4 module units side by side (yes it would be a wide bike) it would likely not be hard to pick up and it would feel a lot lighter than if they packed the weight on high.
I had to lift my bike off the ground this morning and was very surprised how light it felt. It was lighter than my ninja 250 would have been in the same location 0_0
It would be cheaper to just make a really good cowl to get extra distance but it wouldn't look anything like a traditional touring bike if they did. :/
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new technologie batterie, like lithium souffre it will be 3x more capacite for the same Wight
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They could try a touring Zero with 20+ kWh battery? OFC it would be heavy, but it would be for touring.
Price would increase to 25000$++ probably.
The question is where they put the weight. Lets say they packed in two of the 4 module units side by side (yes it would be a wide bike) it would likely not be hard to pick up and it would feel a lot lighter than if they packed the weight on high.
20 kWh might be achieved if they modify their current box shape for the battery, to accommodate leg room and weight distribution. I don't see a wider rectangular box making sense in its current form; that would make drag reduction even more difficult. Simultaneously, once they commit to a fairing, the product design would have to focus on maintaining (or improving) battery and motor ventilation.
A range-boosting fairing and a strong L2/L3 charging solution would top my wish list, anyway, and would be more effective at increasing the bike's usefulness.
Of course, this is all speculation and it sounds like Zero has locked in a design that they're happy with, which is good because that gives them a year to test it and keep costs reasonable. I would definitely bet against a battery chemistry change.
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new technologie batterie, like lithium souffre it will be 3x more capacite for the same Wight
I just searched google for "lithium sulfur commercially available" and I have found no manufactures. There is no way they could find their way into a 2016 less zero makes their own battery which overcomes the current limitations of the compound.
How many years does battery tech have to be commercially available before they are found in EV's? Anyone know of historical cases for this where the EV doesn't cost as much as a house?
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...(yes it would be a wide bike)...
Actually it surprised me when I got my bike just how narrow it is through the "chest" area. Way, way narrower than just about any four-cylinder ICE bike, anyhow. And remember the Benelli Sei and the Honda CBX? I think two "monoliths" would fit side-by-side just fine, and although I'd hate the price tag of a bike like that, I'd certainly love the range! It still wouldn't be a terribly heavy bike, and with the CG very low I think it would handle fine.
I'm kind of glad that bike wasn't available when I bought my SR, though. I'd have been sorely tempted, and the SR destroyed my budget quite enough!
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I would love to see some kind of fairing. Yesterday was very windy and I was on the freeway - the wind wasn't a problem when I was heading West as it was a quartering tailwind but when I turned around later to come home I was getting blasted by up to 40 mile-per-hour gusts (at least that was what was reported at a nearby location, and it sure felt like it). I should have paid more attention to the trees in my backyard which were being whipped all over the place. I finally couldn't take anymore and got off onto surface streets. Anything to help the bike cut through the wind would be welcome.
Edit: Getting off the freeway did have its upside. I stopped at the exit light and a Ferrari pulled up next to me. It wasn't the 458, as it did not have the triple exhaust, it had quad exhausts - two on each side but it wasn't the 430 either - maybe a California? It was a beautiful gray car. In any case he took off kind of hard so I pinned it. I caught and passed him very quickly but let off at about 60 since we were in at 45 mph zone though there was no traffic. I'm not a complete idiot, and I don't want to go to jail. He caught me and went roaring by, probably doubling the speed limit and making a beautiful noise. Damn I'm having fun on this bike!
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A 20 kWh battery pack version would likely convince me to get off my 2014 S and on to that bike. But I am not holding my breath. I don't think there is a large enough market at the price they would have to charge for that model. ???
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Trying to turn an electric motorcycle into a touring bike wouldn't be an improvement to me. The bikes are also heavy and expensive enough. Time to return to emphasize what electric bikes do best...use all that torque effortlessly. Give me a very fast accelerating bike under 400 lbs. I don't care what the range is.
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I know that they keep improving these bikes, but I REALLY want one now and hope that I don't buy one only to wish that I had waited until the 2016 model. I really wish I knew what to expect so I can make a decision to buy now or wait another year. If it is only minor tweaks I could care less, but if it was something really cool I would be disappointed, since they cost an arm & a leg so not like I can just go buy another one. I really wanted the ABS so I think I might just have to take a chance that next years won't be that much better,
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What would be really sweet is if Zero could make some of the new features backwards compatible so current owners can pay a certain price to get their old bikes upgraded.
For example, I would pay the money for the 2014-15 dashboard. But fortunately those arnt backwards compatible.
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What would be really sweet is if Zero could make some of the new features backwards compatible so current owners can pay a certain price to get their old bikes upgraded.
For example, I would pay the money for the 2014-15 dashboard. But fortunately those arnt backwards compatible.
Agreed, that could be a nice option.
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I know that they keep improving these bikes, but I REALLY want one now and hope that I don't buy one only to wish that I had waited until the 2016 model. I really wish I knew what to expect so I can make a decision to buy now or wait another year. If it is only minor tweaks I could care less, but if it was something really cool I would be disappointed, since they cost an arm & a leg so not like I can just go buy another one. I really wanted the ABS so I think I might just have to take a chance that next years won't be that much better,
I just broke down and got a 2015. I think the question to ask yourself is will the current one do what you need it to do? If so, get it and enjoy. If you keep waiting then there will always be a better one next year to keep waiting on...
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One thing I want on a 2015: a Factory Service Manual.
This is the first bike I've had since my '82 CB450SC where I haven't had a service manual, and I at least had a Clymers. I just installed a power tank and it made a bunch of references to the service manual... that I don't have access to.
Very annoying.
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One thing I want on a 2015: a Factory Service Manual.
Couldn't agree more on this!
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My 2013 S 8.5 is almost perfect. 355 lbs, low seat ht. and plenty of range for me. In 2014 and 15, they added more range, but that meant more weight which is my enemy. The 2015 Zero S has a slightly higher seat and weighs 20 lbs. more. Not a deal breaker, but hardly an improvement for me. I see 2013 as the banner year for the S model and improvements since then have been moot.
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My 2013 S 8.5 is almost perfect. 355 lbs, low seat ht. and plenty of range for me. In 2014 and 15, they added more range, but that meant more weight which is my enemy. The 2015 Zero S has a slightly higher seat and weighs 20 lbs.
more. Not a deal breaker, but hardly an improvement for me. I see 2013 as the banner year for the S model and improvements since then have been moot.
What is the seat height on the '13?
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The 2013 S seat ht. is 31.3 in. The 2015 is 31.8 in. Actually the 2013 doesn't seem quite that tall. I'm just under 5'7" and notice seat hts. The bike is narrow and the front forks compress a bit when you sit on it which is probably why. I have not sat on the 2015 to compare the two model years. I can easily flat foot my Zero S.
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Seat height is only part of it. You have to factor in seat width as well in order to know if you can have both feet down if that is what you want. If you have a very narrow seat it can be a few inches taller than a short and wide seat and still be better for having both feet flat on the ground.
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Seat height is only part of it. You have to factor in seat width as well in order to know if you can have both feet down if that is what you want. If you have a very narrow seat it can be a few inches taller than a short and wide seat and still be better for having both feet flat on the ground.
How wide are the Zero S and SR seats?
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My 2014 Zero S seat is about 11" wide where I plant my butt. Slightly narrower closer to the "tank". I have yet to see a 2015 Zero up close in the flesh, so I don't know if the seat design has changed any.
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One other thing the Zero S has going for it for a shorter rider is that the tail is not raised very much, so it is not as difficult to get on and off. Short people have a tendency to scrape their right foot on the top of the pillion area when mounting and dismounting. I haven't had that problem with my 13 Zero S. In a bad case scenario, you could catch your foot on the pillion and fall down. I guess the worse case scenario would look like something from "Final Destination" where you catch your foot on the bike, fall down, the bike falls on top of you and rolls out into the street where a garbage truck then runs over you swerving to avoid the motorcycle.
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One other thing the Zero S has going for it for a shorter rider is that the tail is not raised very much, so it is not as difficult to get on and off. Short people have a tendency to scrape their right foot on the top of the pillion area when mounting and dismounting. I haven't had that problem with my 13 Zero S. In a bad case scenario, you could catch your foot on the pillion and fall down. I guess the worse case scenario would look like something from "Final Destination" where you catch your foot on the bike, fall down, the bike falls on top of you and rolls out into the street where a garbage truck then runs over you swerving to avoid the motorcycle.
Something like that happened to me one time on my 1997 BMW Funduro. While getting off the bike my foot caught the luggage strapped to my passenger seat, I lost my balance and knocked the bike over onto me. It broke the gear change lever (darn transmissions), but I wasn't hurt since I was wearing my riding gear. However, ever since that episode, I always deploy the side stand to support the bike first before getting off, instead of trying to balance it while swinging my foot over the seat. ;)
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Something like that happened to me one time...
I was coming back to work on my SV-650, and I waved to one of my riding buddies.
So I step off and swing my leg. It's got a long spike coming off the side-stand, and this spike buried itself in my shoe under my instep, pinning my foot as I tried to swivel around.
Not only did this trip me, but it retracted the stand and I fell with the bike landing on top of me. Fortunately an SV is not that heavy, but I ended up waving my arms and legs like a flipped turtle, with no leverage. My riding buddy shook his head and came over and lifted the bike off me.
That spike had a chat with Mr. Dremel Tool the moment I got home.
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My 2014 Zero S seat is about 11" wide where I plant my butt. Slightly narrower closer to the "tank". I have yet to see a 2015 Zero up close in the flesh, so I don't know if the seat design has changed any.
The 2015 SR seat is just under 12" at the widest point at the back and the top surface tapers down to 5" at the tank with a run of about 11" from the widest point to the narrowest point. I assume that the S seat is the same.
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For me, a reduction in price would be the best thing they could do. I think Zero need to keep their focus on the commuter market. Often people ride to work because they love biking but also to save money. These are the people who use their bikes enough that they have a chance of making an electric bike economically viable.
As many of you know, I have given electric bikes a lot of thought over a considerable amount of time. My best estimate for the ex-demo Streetbike had on sale was a break even point of four years. With the best will in the world, I think that's too long.
Buying an electric bike is not like buying an ICE bike. The second hand market is extremely small and depreciation is very high. Would you want to buy a five year old bike? I know I would want proof of the bike's current range, so I could get an estimate of battery health at the very least. Even if battery health was good, I'd be worried about cell failure when the internal components have suffered five years of ageing. You can go out and buy a used ICE bike that's ten years old and still have confidence that the components will be good for another ten, depending on mileage of course. My Fazer is twelve and has 50,000 miles on the clock. Even without a full service history and being the type of bike that gets ragged, it runs like new and needs less than half a cup of oil between changes.
I would like to see electric bikes at a price that's the same or very close to the price of a comparable ICE bike. I haven't seen a price for a UK registered 2015 Zero S yet, but I suspect it will be in the region of £14,000. The nearest comparable ICE that I can find odds the Honda NC750 DCT. They cost about £6,500 new, on the road. You don't have to change gear, you can store a full size helmet in the faux tank, it has long service intervals and does 70-80 miles per gallon (UK gallons).
If I could buy a new 2015 S for £8,000 I would consider it. I was very seriously considering the 2014 S at £9,000 even without the benefits of the 2015 model which are absolutely necessary to compete.
Just a few more years and I think we'll see the gap shrink so that ebike buyers can start benefiting from the reduced running costs within a year or two. How many bikers keep their bikes for longer? We like a bit of variety and to try something new. It's not like driving a Volvo.
I wish I could afford to be an early adopter, but I just can't.
By the way, I have half a mind to go the other way and buy a second hand ZZR 1400. A nice upgrade to my Fazer with the fun factor set to 11!
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The main thing I think zero needs to do to really get into markets outside the US is to have the standard on board charger at least be rated to what those countries standard wall sockets are. In Australia it is 2400watts. 240v and 10amps. No need to carry a 1000w power supply here as the bike charges fast enough with 2400watts instead of 1300. Range issues half with this simple cheap fix! The 2015sr is epic. My 2014 issue were fixed in 2015. My last concern is standard onboard charging. Time to fix this!
Oh and 10% more torque and battery capacity next year would have me buying another ;)
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Buying an electric bike is not like buying an ICE bike. The second hand market is extremely small and depreciation is very high. Would you want to buy a five year old bike? I know I would want proof of the bike's current range, so I could get an estimate of battery health at the very least. Even if battery health was good, I'd be worried about cell failure when the internal components have suffered five years of ageing. You can go out and buy a used ICE bike that's ten years old and still have confidence that the components will be good for another ten, depending on mileage of course. My Fazer is twelve and has 50,000 miles on the clock. Even without a full service history and being the type of bike that gets ragged, it runs like new and needs less than half a cup of oil between changes.
I don't know that this is true. First of all, most electrics have pretty robust warranties on their batteries. Second, my understanding is that the motors have much fewer moving parts than ICE engine, and much fewer things that can go wrong, espcially with Zeros considering they don't even have gearboxes. As far as cell failure, we should have pretty good data by now about how batteries age. Last, I think if you're going to be holding on to an electric bike for 5 years or so, it might be a pretty safe assumption that when the time comes to replace batteries, the costs for replacements will have come down some. Not that I don't want the bikes to get cheaper, but it's a bit of a catch 22- bikes won't get cheaper until there's the economies of scale, and economies of scale won't happen till more people buy the bikes.
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I think Zero have got to a point where they're happy to put a 5 year warranty on their batteries, but that is really quite recent. I've heard a number of stories of battery failures on 2012 bikes.
Do you really want to have to replace the most expensive component when you buy a five to ten year old bike? I think the longevity of the batteries is yet to be proved and they currently account for three quarters of the cost of the bike.
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some News?
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Nothing official, Zero, like most manufacturers, keeps their cards tight to their chests about next years models.
I'm hearing rumors that an expansion of dealerships in Europe, to match the expansion in the US might be on the cards later this year, and might include new dealerships in the UK. How true or likely that is I don't know, but I have my fingers crossed.
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I would like more dealers in France because one of the things that scares me is, if i have a problem with the bike, i do not have a dealer in my town. And i do not want to do 3 hours to go to a dealer for every problem (and some of the owners here do have constant problems).
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Something with functional spray protection for the back wheel. Don't like a wet back.
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Does anyone know when the new models tend to hit the dealerships? I am debating on the 2015 SR or the 2016 SR and would love to know how long I have to wait for the 2016's? Since they are very pricey I don't want to get the 2015 then wish I waited for the 2016. If there is not much difference in the bikes than I will just get a slightly better deal on the 2015. So for me either way is a win if I wait just a little while longer.
Plus my dealer says he doesn't find out what the new models have to offer until he sees them on the Zero website. You would think that they would give the dealers a little heads up on what the new models are going to have instead of keeping them a secret.
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Probably won't be out until 2016
I'd get a 15, still get the showa and all the good stuff
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Typically Zero starts producing their new models sometime in December and (depending upon the location of your dealer) the new bikes will arrive on the showroom floor in January or February. Zero has never leaked information about their next year models until the day they decide to make an official announcement, which is usually in September or October.
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It would be great if... or maybe WHEN.. Zero will make their own ZF motor controller!
Personally i think it take alot of development and $$$ so that's why they just did not released any yet.
But for sure it would have a Controller/charger combo witch would reduce price and cost less than a seperate charger and controller.
The high power J1772 charger could use the high power electronic to control the charge current,. It would only need a high voltage 85-264Vac rectifier circuit followed by a DC-Dc with a part of that DC-Dc using the input of the controller. So the controller would work as in regen mode when receiving Ac power.
Bigger battery IS NOT THE SOLUTION i think personally .. the 2015 are just perfect and it allow to commute between alot of charge station.
Having a bigger battery would just add weight that nobody want and let you do few more km between charge station witch does not worth it.
The ebike community already have the Adaptto controller with is a combo that is using one of the 3 output phase to control the cahrge current to teh battery ans it also act as a boost converter to increase the charging voltage so it can charge from any source that is between 12 to 98Vdc. The main idea with a Zero charger controlelr combo would be teh same but instead of being a boost converter to increase the voltage it would be a Buck converter withc decrease the Voltage to reach the 102V of the battery.
Doc
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The Zero could still add another 40 to 60 pounds to get up to the weight of a couple of my bikes. ;) I wouldn't mind having a larger battery pack so that I could ride longer without having to stop to recharge somewhere. When I go for a ride I don't want to stop until I get to my destination. :)
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I wouldn't mind having a larger battery pack so that I could ride longer without having to stop to recharge somewhere.
I agree. I think Zero could add a second "monolith" without making the bike too wide. Obviously such a bike would be more expensive than the current bikes, as well as heavier, but to me it would be worthwhile to have such a bike in the lineup. I don't know that I'd have chosen it, my 11.4 SR serves my needs very well, but I would have had to think pretty hard about it. Double the range would definitely be tempting.
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If I was only riding street and the money wasn't a factor I'd buy the biggest battery bike that Zero makes. But riding dirt - not so much.
Trikester
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I am all for giving customers choices. For guys like me, a larger battery pack and for many others no on-board charger but a fast charger set-up instead. But I assume that Zero doesn't have enough resources to produce too many model options at this stage of their business development, so I guess they will test the market winds and produce whatever they feel will generate the most number of sales.
My belief is that Zero will continue to try to increase battery density when possible, while cutting costs wherever they can to reduce the initial purchase price. Personally, I would like to see a larger chassis (perhaps something with a 60" wheelbase) that would allow more flexibility in packaging (and a better and larger two-passenger seat) that could also be used as the basis for a cruiser platform. The cruiser market is wide open right now, unless Victory jumps in.
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Here's something interesting. The second they came out with the SR, I wondered when we would see the DS version. Looks like the wait is over!
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2015/03/03/motorcycle-category/sportbikes/zero-dsr-zero-fxs-trademarked/ (http://blog.motorcycle.com/2015/03/03/motorcycle-category/sportbikes/zero-dsr-zero-fxs-trademarked/)
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I've sold two Zeros now and I can attest that he secondary market stinks :) I now price at 1/2 new when I update.
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I guess the best we can hope for is to hold onto something like the 2014 SR for long enough for it to be considered to be a piece of history.
Kind of like an Apple I. (Yes, I'm being grossly overly optimistic.)
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Thinking about this subject last night it occurred to me that whatever we say or think will likely have no immediate impact on the next year's design. I recalled speaking with Richard Walker in 2012 and he mentioned that they were already designing the 2015 models. So my guess is that the 2016 bikes have already been designed and Zero is likely currently searching for equipment and parts suppliers and working on running preproduction prototypes. Right now they are probably starting to design the 2018 models.
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I've sold two Zeros now and I can attest that he secondary market stinks :) I now price at 1/2 new when I update.
Yes, I have a very low mileage (under 1K mi) 2012 DS ZF6, with HID headlamp upgrade, for sale @ $6K. So far no takers.
Trikester
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Here's something interesting. The second they came out with the SR, I wondered when we would see the DS version. Looks like the wait is over!
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2015/03/03/motorcycle-category/sportbikes/zero-dsr-zero-fxs-trademarked/ (http://blog.motorcycle.com/2015/03/03/motorcycle-category/sportbikes/zero-dsr-zero-fxs-trademarked/)
That's exactly what I want! I use my bike, with my wife on her 2014 DS, only for play in the redwood forests along the Santa Cruz mountains, and would love more torque for low-speed play! I traded up to the Zero DS, from my XR1200, and it compares favorably for torque play. I spoke with Hollywood Electrics regarding upgrading my 2014 DS with SR powertrain, and advised those I knew at the factory. I would trade-in/sell my 2014 for something this fun!
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Some thoughts on 2016 and later .. namely when does Zero switch to a high voltage system.
Two engineers at Zero recently have given interviews where they've strongly indicated they're not looking at high voltage systems.
The first is an interview with Abe Askenazi (http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/25/on-the-record-abe-askenazi-cto-zero-electric-motorcycles-cycle-world-interview/), Zero's CTO.
Most powersports equipment is based around Field-Effect Transistor (FET) technology, which peaks around 130 volts. When you go to higher voltage, you have to go to Insulated-Gate Bipolar Transistor (IGBT) technology. The car guys are at 300-400 volts, which incidentally the Harley-Davidson Livewire is 300 volts. But at the level of power that a motorcycle makes, the difference is not that impactful. It’s also a safety issue: Our manufacturing is pretty high-end, but we don’t have automotive levels of safety, and we can’t guarantee that every dealership is going to have high-voltage safety systems in place. The standard for powersports and industrial equipment such as forklifts is 102 volts, which if you screw up will shock and hurt you, but isn’t fatal. If you get shocked with a 300-400-volt battery, you’re dead.
The second are interviews Luke Workman has conducted with both Motorcycle.com (http://www.motorcycle.com/features/inside-batteries-mo-interviews-zero-motorcycles-senior-battery-specialist-luke-workman-video.html) and gizmag (http://www.gizmag.com/zero-electric-motorcycles-factory-2015/35865/), during a Zero factory tour. Note the same photos supplied with both articles. Luke is better known in the EV community as liveforphysics.
So why not go up to a higher voltage that would work with the existing charging infrastructure? "If we went to 300 volts, it would hurt you on every front that matters," says Zero's Senior Battery Specialist Luke Workman. "We'd have lower efficiency, lower power, higher cost, higher drive train heat – and in terms of life safety for the guys that are working on these things, you go from a nasty tickle … to dead. The majority of electric vehicles that are using higher voltages are doing so simply because they've been designed using legacy equipment. You'll see a lot more EVs going low voltage in the future."
So why do we want high voltage anyway? Two things: higher power motor controllers and DC quick charging.
1. Higher power motor controllers
The Zero SR and Brammo Empulse use the Sevcon Gen 4 Size 6, one of the largest "low voltage" motor controllers. They're pretty quick! But there's always someone who wants more power .. like Luke. For larger bikes or regearing for higher speeds, both of these applications will need more power, as well as better cooling.
For more power, the answer traditionally has been to go higher voltage. Energica, Mission, Lightning, Brammo's RR bikes all use these ~350V high power motor controllers. Sevcon, Curtis, and Kelly all top out at around 50 kW with their ~100V AC motor controllers. Zero seems to have more clout with suppliers nowadays; can Zero convince Sevcon to build a larger low-voltage Gen 4? Or use two smaller motor controllers? Or maybe someone - Zero in-house? - will build a higher power low voltage controller?
2. DC quick charging
Presently Zero's bikes are ~100V and 110 Ah for the ZF12.5, or 135 Ah for the Power Tank model. In order to get a 30 minute 80% charge on Zero's present bikes, Zero will need about 200A DC. For a larger bike - suppose they built a six or eight brick pack at the same voltage - they would need 300 to 400A DC to get the same 30 minute 80% charge.
CHAdeMO presently supports only up to 125A, though the spec supposedly can be extended (http://insideevs.com/what-are-the-power-limits-of-available-dc-quick-charging-standards/) up to 200A. SAE CCS supports up to 200A already, and may be able to be extended up to 400A. Existing chargers may not support voltages this low or currents this high. And - after the short-lived CHAdeMO adapter for the 2013 bikes - they need to make sure DC charging is bulletproof and works every time, all the time.
In the meanwhile, Zero is taking an active role in trying to push adherence to fast charging standards. "We're on the committee for the IEEE P2030.1 DC fast charging standard," says Zero's Head of Electrical Engineering Kenyon Kluge. "Our goal is simply to push for compliance with the spec that already exists."
This is a long-term play on Zero's part IMO. Any steering pressure Zero can apply as part of the IEEE committee (which I believe has some input into both the SAE and CHAdeMO charging standards groups) will take years to resolve .. and in those years, perhaps the old incompatible chargers will be taken out of service, and the charging networks will grow to a point where DC QC travel is realistic.
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nice post protomech,
for me 50kw is enaught if the bike is light weigt 140 kg will be very nice with 50kw
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Thinking about this subject last night it occurred to me that whatever we say or think will likely have no immediate impact on the next year's design.
I'm sure that's true, I think really we're talking about changes we'd like to see for some future model year, but probably not 2016. OTOH, I'm sure some things like battery configuration, frame size and shape and the like are determined years in advance, while other things don't need to be decided so early. Motor design is probably done even farther in advance. But if we told them we wanted a better horn, that would probably be a pretty quick change since it's just a bolt-on item.
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Better onboard charging as standard, something between 3.3 and 6 kWh, with level 2 charging plugs (J1772 or Mennekes)
Right now this one lacking feature is stopping me using the bike to its full potential, for example 110 mile round trip @ 60-70mph, not happening.
Yes aftermarket & first party offboard chargers are available, but I feel they are a stop gap solution.
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Some news about 2016 model?
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Both the 2014 and 2015 models were released at the end of September/beginning of October so we have to wait a few more months unless there are leaks.
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Both the 2014 and 2015 models were released at the end of September/beginning of October so we have to wait a few more months unless there are leaks.
If there has ever been a leak out of the Zero factory about next year's models, I sure haven't heard about it.
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Both the 2014 and 2015 models were released at the end of September/beginning of October so we have to wait a few more months unless there are leaks.
If there has ever been a leak out of the Zero factory about next year's models, I sure haven't heard about it.
Not necessarily a leak from the factory, but the prototypes raced at REFUEL have often hinted at next year's model. That'll be coming up in a couple of weeks, but no clue if Zero is registered.
At the 2013 eGrandPrix race, Kenyon Kluge was racing a modified Zero S, but it may well have been a prototype for the 2014 SR.
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Pikes peak is at same time as refuel so Hollywood electric is going to pikes
I will be at refuel with a couple bikes
I know a couple zero people will
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Pikes peak is at same time as refuel so Hollywood electric is going to pikes
I will be at refuel with a couple bikes
I know a couple zero people will
Love to see your size 6 FX on the track.. get some video too :)
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Both the 2014 and 2015 models were released at the end of September/beginning of October so we have to wait a few more months unless there are leaks.
If there has ever been a leak out of the Zero factory about next year's models, I sure haven't heard about it.
Leaks can always happen, all it takes is somebody that forgets to cover up a piece of fairing tucked away in a corner during a factory tour or a usb stick with a picture that gets lost.
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I disagree with Protomech on the higher voltage improvement as Abe said in the interview once you get over 100v an accident could kill someone. Knowing that we are all a community of tinkerers it will not be long before a bad accident happens and zero get sued.
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Those legal issues are probably already hammered down, since 50V can also be deadly.
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Amperage kills. Voltage does nothing. I've had over 50,000 V applied to me, pass through me, and exit; at under 1 microamp. Only made my hair stand up.
Secondly, Amperage experiences resistance loss, Voltage does not. High Voltage == more efficient. Even those with the most remedial grasp of electronics knows this.
Ohm's Law explains both, and it's first-year, first-week material. T disagree with this fundamental reality out loud is to remove one's self from the real of being taken seriously.
All the Zero S really needs is a charger that doesn't suck. Why they haven't designed the motor controller to double as such is a bit confusing... It regen brakes, doesn't it? Most of the work is already done. No need for two separate pieces of hardware. DCQC is entirely off board anyway, and they had to ditch it because CHADEMO standards aren't standards...
They should talk to Tesla. See if the Superchargers can be asked pump lower voltage. Or just get with reality and use higher voltage in the Zero. Even in DIY electrics, we know this talk about higher voltage being more heat, more loss, etc, is the opposite of the truth. Even children know this...
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camosoul, you should be careful speaking in absolutes like that. They say that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, and it sounds like you're squarely in that zone.
It's true that current is what's dangerous, but without voltage, you can't generate any current. (Btw, the terms "amperage" and "condensor" were deprecated for "current" and "capacitor" decades ago.) That's like saying it's water flow that puts out a fire, not pressure....it's true as far as it goes, but without pressure, you'll never get the water to flow.
There are also a lot of other variables. A current of 5mA directly through your heart can be enough to stop it, but getting 5mA directly through your heart can be done many different ways. Applying a high voltage from one foot to another (which may happen if you're standing on the ground when a lightning bolt strikes nearby) isn't likely to get much current through your chest area, since it'll follow the shortest path through your legs, whereas applying significantly less voltage from one hand to the other may be much more likely to get a fatal amount of current through your chest. And a tesla coil is extremely unlikely to ever cause any damage in spite of high voltage, both because the current is low and the frequency is very high, which causes the current to flow almost entirely through your skin, never penetrating very deeply into your body (look up "skin effect" in wikipedia).
Okay, you may have stuck your hand in a tesla coil, and yes, it's quite amazing to see the lightning striking you and not causing any effect, not even any discomfort. Van de Graff generators are also very cool, as long as you don't step off the insulated stool. But DO NOT stick your fingers in a 220V socket, you really aren't going to like what happens if you do.
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I really hope they make the SR even faster with a 0 to 60 of under 3 seconds. That would pretty much force me to buy one. I sat on an SR yesterday and while the seat is noticeably taller and the weight more than my 2013 8.5 S, both negatives for me, it's still OK. I really hope Zero doesn't make their SR heavier for 2016. No offense to those who want to take long trips on the Zeros, but first lets get the bike doing what it is capable of doing right now with some changes, namely accelerate very fast.
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I really hope they make the SR even faster with a 0 to 60 of under 3 seconds. That would pretty much force me to buy one. I sat on an SR yesterday and while the seat is noticeably taller and the weight more than my 2013 8.5 S, both negatives for me, it's still OK. I really hope Zero doesn't make their SR heavier for 2016. No offense to those who want to take long trips on the Zeros, but first lets get the bike doing what it is capable of doing right now with some changes, namely accelerate very fast.
Just curious, have you test ridden an SR? It's 0-60 feels much faster than an ICE bike. I think it's because you don't have to abuse it to get that acceleration like you do with an ICE bike. I'm not saying I would complain about being even faster, but that's not my primary concern. I'd like more range and better charging options. I agree with you that I don't want it any heavier. Lots of people are interested in a fairing, but if they put one on, I'll be buying last year's model.
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I really hope they make the SR even faster with a 0 to 60 of under 3 seconds. That would pretty much force me to buy one. I sat on an SR yesterday and while the seat is noticeably taller and the weight more than my 2013 8.5 S, both negatives for me, it's still OK. I really hope Zero doesn't make their SR heavier for 2016. No offense to those who want to take long trips on the Zeros, but first lets get the bike doing what it is capable of doing right now with some changes, namely accelerate very fast.
Just curious, have you test ridden an SR? It's 0-60 feels much faster than an ICE bike. I think it's because you don't have to abuse it to get that acceleration like you do with an ICE bike. I'm not saying I would complain about being even faster, but that's not my primary concern.
From a test ride, I concur that the torque is so hugely accessible that I wonder who really needs to go faster than that and isn't willing to customize the bike via gearing, etc.
I'd like more range and better charging options. I agree with you that I don't want it any heavier. Lots of people are interested in a fairing, but if they put one on, I'll be buying last year's model.
I'd bet that any touring/range allowances will be optional or at most will bifurcate from the standard model line, and they'll continue to push down the price on that line to nail the commuter market. I think it's pretty clear right now that we're only getting a DSR in terms of new models for 2016, so at best the OEM option will be a fairing add-on.
Personally, I'm getting a little itchy to build an electric touring bike by hook or crook. I think this is too esoteric territory to impact Zero's decisions, still. :)
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Some precision on the 2016 model, new battery over 105 volt, new motor?
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It seems funny to me that voltage is what everyone is looking for considering that there is no need to increase voltage. The only reasons I can see to increase voltage is to lower overall current usage and to be able to use thinner gauge wires. Yes there are other benefits to voltage vs current but there is little to nothing preventing just pushing more current at the relatively safe 100v pack voltage. At 100 volts if someone were to managed to get shocked it is not likely to kill or even do real damage under normal conditions (didn't just get done talking a bath in salt water) and that is a good thing. My bike (FX) has a 420 amp controller and if you look at the specs, they do make a 150v model but it has less current rating so it ends up being the same power output and your efficiency gain is negligible. On top of that you would need to redesign the ENTIRE power system from the ground up. On top of that as you add batteries in series you are increasing the voltage "drop" that will be experienced as SOC changes with less cells in parallel and using current for your "power" you will experience better voltage stability.
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It would allow for faster charging but that's about it.
Some precision on the 2016 model, new battery over 105 volt, new motor?
No news on the Western front afaik.
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on the SR we have temperature isue, one off the solution to state at the same power and improve the temperature probleme is to increase the voltage to be able to decrease the amperage.
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While that is true that you could fix temp issues by pushing less current and more voltage, it would be even more easy to just add larger cooling fins to the motor or allow for better airflow over the motor. I just don't see Zero going to any higher voltage any time soon given the general good setup of the cell layout that they have now. I guess adding one more cell wouldn't be an issue but once you go too high with the nominal voltage you have to then start looking at different controllers and programming goes out the window. From what I understand about the SR overheat "issue" is that is is solvable with some air flow to the motor. Remember that any changes Zero makes in 2016 17 etc will have no effect on the bike you have now!
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Part of the temperature problems on the SR are related to the temperature sensor itself being bad. Try turning your SR on first thing in the morning after it has been sitting all night. Go look at the motor temp. Mine is always about 15 degrees warmer than my garage is.
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I cobbled together a simple chart what would happen if Zero made the same improvements from as in the last model year:
(http://i.imgur.com/aY1s4KX.png)
Source bike: S with power tank.
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I will probably stay with my 2014 S zf11.4 untilI can get a reasonablyt priced ZERO that has a range of at least 250 miles. Speaking of changes, I would like to see:
louder pizeo horn
LED bulbs all around
self-cancelling turn signals
travel trunk with a built in quick charger
hybrid frame-mount fairing that has a single "bottom" and two different "top" sections one
for touring and one for cafe racing
hot-swapable battery chargers for 120 - 240 50 / 60 Hz, ChaDeMo, and SAE L2/L3
garage-top solar panel array trickle charger
"black box" to allow me to off-load not only bike diags, but ALL data from a ride
including ride conditions, gps, digi-cam images ( cam mounted in dash )
side panels and fairing covered with electroluminescent panels to enhance
bike visibility to others on the road at night
FLASH-ROM function upgrade-able DASH
side-car w/ provision to hold a reeeeeeally large POWER-TANK
rear-view cam and collision avoidance "radar" system
hot swap-able batteries built to a universal standard compatible with other e-vehicles
( bikes, cars, private aircraft, PWC's, etc . )
24 / 7 / 365 TECH SUPPORT
customer loyalty / trade-in program for people wishing to get a newer ZERO
in exchange for their older ZERO
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I would hope the 2016 has a better seat. My 2009 R1 has a far softer stock seat than my 2015 SR. Yes, a superbike uas a more comfortable seat. WTF?
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There's only a few things that make sense...
Integrated charger/controller with non-suck charging.
Fairing.
Higher voltage/smaller cells in series.
The first one would be enough to make me buy it in 2016. The first two would be enough to make me borrow money to buy it ASAP. All three and I might sell a kidney ... The one that got fried by the Van De Graff Generator.
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You had a kidney damaged by a Van De Graff generator? Wow, I messed around a lot with one of those (home built) when I was a teenager, I'm glad that didn't happen to me.
Trikester
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There's only a few things that make sense...
Integrated charger/controller with non-suck charging.
Does it really make sense? The controller is built by sevcon, so Zero would have to build there own controller/charger and would need to hire ppl to design it. The R&D would be huge.
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Zero and Servcon could do a joint effort on RD,
zero must be one of their biggest customers.
They must realize this is the way of the future, combine tech to do muliple roles. especially on motorbike where space is rare.
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Zero and Servcon could do a joint effort on RD, zero must be one of their biggest customers.
They must realize this is the way of the future, combine tech to do muliple roles. especially on motorbike where space is rare.
Not even close, Sevcon brought in $38 million dollars last year. Zero is only buying a couple of thousand controllers a year which is a splash in the pond for Sevcon.
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Thanks for the info. :)
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Zero and Servcon could do a joint effort on RD, zero must be one of their biggest customers.
They must realize this is the way of the future, combine tech to do muliple roles. especially on motorbike where space is rare.
Zero is limited by size, and I have no idea how big Sevcon is. The idea is excellent, but money I think is the only factor holding back a raft of excellent ideas.
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Zero's upcoming events (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/events.php) page lists the AIMExpo this year in mid-October (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/promotions/event.php?t=1747), so all bets should be in before then. ;)
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Just 40-something days left until we find out, better get the hype train up to steam.
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Was browsing the AIMExpo site a bit and found a floorplan. Zero has a 185m2 stand which is quite large.
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Will any EMF'ers be attending?
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Something simple Zero could do is use some hi quality bearings. I see a number of posts where the bearing are being replaced at around 10,000 - 12,000 miles. My scooter has done 100,000 km (60,000 miles) and all the bearings are fine.
My scooter is an Aprilia scarabeo 500, it had a faulty computer replaced just after I bought it and I have put 3 low beam headlight globes in it, and a new battery (last year). I have had it 8 years. Not too bad I think.
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Something simple Zero could do is use some hi quality bearings. I see a number of posts where the bearing are being replaced at around 10,000 - 12,000 miles. My scooter has done 100,000 km (60,000 miles) and all the bearings are fine.
My scooter is an Aprilia scarabeo 500, it had a faulty computer replaced just after I bought it and I have put 3 low beam headlight globes in it, and a new battery (last year). I have had it 8 years. Not too bad I think.
My daughter's 1981 BMW R65LS still has its original wheel and steering-head bearings. She has over 100,000 miles on that bike and the bearings have never been greased since the bike was built. Even the original factory tools in her tool kit that has been sitting in the tool tray under the seat for all of those years still look like new, without even a hint of rust, although the bike spent years riding around Seattle. So it is possible to have products and equipment that will last a long time - if you are willing to specify quality components and pay for them. ::)
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Hi quality bearing don't cost that much, I would pay a few dollars more for the best bearings.
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Especially with Zero promoting the low/zero maintence of the bikes. Wheel bearings should be high qualify.
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If it makes you feel any better (which it won't) the bearings used in the BMW vertical singles and twins are sourced from the the lowest-low bidder they can find. The steering bearings of my 1997 and my 2009 BMW both failed after around 8K miles and other owners have reported wheel bearings that didn't last much longer, especially if you ride off-road. :( If you want quality chassis parts you have to go with the over-1000cc ($$$) models.
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I'm going to throw out two predictions for later in the year (May-June 2016). These are pure speculation on my part, please take them with a large grain of salt.
1. Zero FX and Zero S/DS ZF9.8 will get the interior permanent magnet motor upgrade.
Currently the FX and smaller S/DS bikes continue to use the older motors. The smaller S saw a $1000 price cut vs 2015, but the FX stayed at its old price.
I don't believe the bikes retained the older motors for cost reasons. Indeed, the FX and FXS are at the same price point despite the FXS IPM motor; I assume that the part cost to Zero is very similar between the two motors. These two bikes - the least likely to benefit from improvements in high-speed/racing heat dissipation - will be used to clear out existing inventory of the PM motors before switching all bikes to IPM. It also gives Zero a small upsell for the four-brick S and DS bikes. The switch to IPM may happen prior to any announcement, ie someone purchasing a bike built slightly before the announcement might happen to get an IPM motor .. just based upon Zero's inventory levels.
Switching all motors to IPM will also reduce the number of parts Zero needs to stock and test. I assume the motors are drop-in replacements, so eventually service replacements will be IPM motors (including for 2013-2015 bikes).
2. All bikes but Zero S/DS ZF9.8 will get a price cut in mid-2016 .. probably $1000.
When Zero launched the 2014 bikes, Zero dropped the price (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/press-releases/nov-5-2013-2014-model-line-intl.php) of the S and DS bikes by $1000.
As a result of the refined model offerings, the price of the Zero S and Zero DS models have actually come down by around $1,000 as compared against the 2013 lineup.
When Zero launched the 2015 bikes, the price increased across the board by $350 ...
By staying focused on carefully selected motorcycle categories, Zero has kept their product line diverse enough to meet the needs of a wide variety of riders and lean enough to offer customers refinements without substantial increases to suggested retail pricing. As a result, the premium upgrades to the 2015 line will only cost riders around $400 more for very significant improvements.
... but on May 20 2015 Zero cut the prices (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/press-releases/may-20-2015-msrp.php) for all bikes by $1350, giving the 2015 bikes an effective $1000 price cut across the board too.
Seeing its battery costs fall and energy density increase faster than anticipated as it develops successive model years of high performance electric motorcycles, Zero Motorcycles has decided to deliver this increased value immediately to consumers in North America.
The mid-season bump had the effect of giving them some good press and likely a decent sales bump later in the year, while the higher prices early in the year allowed them to capture a little more profit from the enthusiast base.
I expect Zero to do something very similar this year. The initial $1000 price cut on the Zero S/DS ZF9.8 gives them a talking point regarding continued price cuts, without cutting into Zero's profits; the FX and the four-brick bikes have always been Zero's bread and butter. The price cut on the three-brick bikes lets them market to a slightly more price-sensitive segment and bring interested riders in the door, and the sales mix will give them some early signs as to reception for a later price drop.
The IPM motor and the number of bricks in the battery is the only real difference between the three and four-brick Zeros, and per the FX/FXS price parity the IPM motor must not be hugely more expensive. Zero doesn't really provide a specific reason (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/motorcycles/zf9.8/) for the price drop of the three-brick Zeros, which is a good indication that it's a somewhat arbitrary price point.
As innovations enable the motorcycles to go farther and faster, investments in technology make them easier than ever to own, a key part of Zero’s strategy to bring more riders on board.
I think this strategy is pretty smart on Zero's part. It allows both Zero and dealers to capture larger early profits from the somewhat less price-sensitive enthusiast base, and then later in the year a price drop can pick up sales from interested newcomers who were perhaps turned off by the price of the higher-range bikes.
TL;DR I expect Zero will bring IPM motors and match the $1000 price cut on the ZF9.8 bikes across the board in mid 2016. Unless they don't. :)