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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Doctorbass on June 17, 2014, 10:14:54 AM

Title: 2012.5 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: Doctorbass on June 17, 2014, 10:14:54 AM
Actual project: 2012 SR conversion  8)

Goal : get more power and acceleration ;).. not top speed!

limitation: low 66V Battery voltage = limiting battery max power

You probably saw my post with teh desire to add a size 6 or a 75-7 motor to my Zero... believe it or not! i'll do both !!

It is really complicated to replace all the MBB, BMS and DC-DC to reconfigure the battery voltage to 28s ( 102V nom) so i'll keep it to 66V!!

NOw with that fact, i need to dig somewhere else to get more power on my 2012 S !!

Solution? better motor and higher current !!

Here is my idea:

Right now  with teh Stock size 4 during i'm accelerating,  at about 75mph i see 30.2kW max on my cycle Analyst before it drop  while continuing to 86mph. I see about 452A max on calibrated cycle analyst display during the peak of power.   The controller is exploited to 105% for the current and only 64% for the voltage. BUt as you know i dont want to raise voltage for the reasons above.  So for a 420A controller getting 452A would probably mean getting 690A max on the size 6 and probably 45kW.

The ZF9 battery can take that easy from what i saw. The contactor and high current wiring should be ok with gauge 1/0.  Apparently the stock 425A fuse is ok with a Size 6...

Maybe one day i will just rebuild the battery to 28s and add my own BMS and will get rid of the MBB.. but from now i wanna ride my bike this summer not in 2 years of battery work lol !!! 8)

The S is 40kW wich mean would mean 400A  and pretty close to the max 420A power the stock size 4 can do.  so the 2013-14 S is exploiting the Size 4 to about 100%.
Liquid cooling the 75-7 might be a great project for race application!

On my side the size 6 with 660A and 66V  would give me 44kW, so it would be a little above  the 2013-14 S power of 40kW!!!. Now  if raising max current to 660A that could  give an appreciable boost of power on the 2012 and givbe 44kW wich is a little more than the 2013-14 S of 40kW ;D

I can confirme that the 75-7 motor DOES FIT in the 2012 S frame. I made a foam dummy 75-7 based on the measurement i did on a 2013 S. I'll just have to add holes to fit it to the frame or add an adaptor bracket to match the different shape.

I ordered from Harlan the 25T, the 28T and the 30T so i'll be able to play with various config for finetuning the powerband.

WIth these calculations i can say that my 2012 SR should be  between the 2013S and 2014SR in term of power with the controller set to 660A.

I also remember that many people that converted their 2012 to size 6 said that the size 6 heatsink is not required...

My actual ZF9 battery internal resistance is about 8 miliohm. This mean that at 660A it should dissipate 3.4kW. let say that accelrration last for max 10 sec this is equivalent to 34kJ of energy wich is i guess probably ok if dissipated during 95% of the discharge time.. let say 1h  ride from 100 to 0$ soc.... so 170W continuously average.

Fo rthe motor, the 75-7 motor should be able to manage the heat pretty well for 44kW.. otherwise i'll add forced airflow on the case fins

I expect to be able to buy the Size 6 from Harlan with in about 3-4 weeks.

That will be awsome!
 
Title: Re: 2012 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: Justin Andrews on June 17, 2014, 03:05:24 PM
Blimmin heck... We should rename you to Doctor Frakenstien!!!

Seriously though, this sounds like a fantastic project.
You must shoot some vids when this is running, I for one am really looking forwards to seeing what you accomplish!

Best of luck.
Title: Re: 2012 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: BSDThw on June 17, 2014, 05:58:17 PM
Hi Doc

Some ideas:

Quote
I calculated that the actual SR is only using 500A out of 660A availlable  and...
If you have a look to the DCF settings ([4641sub2] [4641sub7] you will see that:
                Maximum Stator Current   Rated Stator Current
2012 S/DS         420A                            160A
2013 S/DS         420A                            420A
2013 FX           420A                            250A
2014 SR           660A                            420A

Therefore the current will always become lower. The next thing the Sevcon will go back to 550A/350A (size 6/4) in 2 minutes the 660A are only the Boost Time (~30sec) ! see attached photo.
But who accelerate more than 30sec ;)

Quote
I can confirme that the 75-7 motor DOES FIT in the 2012 S frame. I made a foam dummy 75-7 based on the measurement i did on a 2013 S. I'll just have to add holes to fit it to the frame or add an adaptor bracket to match the different shape.
This is awesome hope to see photos soon. 8)
 
Quote
I also remember that many people that converted their 2012 to size 6 said that the size 6 heatsink is not required... this might be because the controller is set to 500A...
Like mentioned before the current will never be so long over 550A but the main fact is what is set to the "Rated Stator Current" in a Size 6 upgrade? I don't believe 420A or 660A. This will toast your 2012 motor. The good thing is your 75-7 is built for 420A ;D

Quote
For the motor, the 75-7 motor should be able to manage the heat pretty well for 44kW.. otherwise i'll add forced airflow on the case fins
The problem is the internal heat conduction. You have to lead the heat from the copper to the heat sink - there are some good ideas out in the field ;)
Title: Re: 2012 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: Doctorbass on June 27, 2014, 10:32:20 AM
Got it to work !!!

Hey guys.. THAT IS JUST AWSOME !!!

It's feeling  like twice the acceleration of the strock 2012 S!!! 

I had to do several mod to achetve that but the motor is installed now and i had to get the rear wheel to be machined today and have the rear wheel rim threaded holes seat for the sproket  to be lowered by 0.100"  to get the belt aligned properly with the motor sporket. The motor 28T sproket was at the max allowable spacing so i had no choices. This make the rear sproket to be 0.100" closer to the rim.

But guess what!.. fun didn't last lomg time!!!! :( ::) I just snaped the belt !!!! Yes guys the belt just broke under acceleration!!  and.... i was ... just... 8km from home !!... :-[ >:( ??? ::)

I had to walk 8km with the zero on my side... lol.. not a great experience!!!

I was a bit disapointed since i planned to make some great ride this weekend.. and knew that the 220 tooth belt are very rare in spare parts at our multiple zero dealers...

BUT FORTUNATLY MY LOCAL DEALER HAD ONE STOCK !!!!! ;D ;D 8)


Believe me i dont want that to walk another 8km again!!!

Things learned today:

- When testing new exciting project, ALWAYS TEST GENTLY BEFORE !!!
- ALWAYS test and retest all thightened screw and belt tension
- ALSO TEST BELT ALIGNMENT during driving and see if it remain aligned under torque
- Always bring your cellphone when going for a ride for testing!
- NEVER go too far from home or garage !!!
- Have great AVAILLABLE friend that can help  just in case!

Doc








Title: Re: 2012 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: kensiko on June 27, 2014, 05:20:48 PM
Wow that was fast! I thought you would take a few more months to do it! Congratulations for your new Zero SR! How much did it cost? Did you ever think to start your Zero dealership hehe
Title: Re: 2012 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: Doctorbass on June 27, 2014, 07:55:23 PM
Quote from: kensiko on June 27, 2014, 05:20:48 PM
Wow that was fast! I thought you would take a few more months to do it! Congratulations for your new Zero SR! How much did it cost? Did you ever think to start your Zero dealership hehe

Thnaks Kensiko. in fact it is not a SR yet, it just have the torque the normal 2013 S does.. it will become a SR once I will have a size 6   =)

I would actually better call it a Zero 2012.5 S  ;)

We already have a Zero dealership in Quebec, I am helping them for the technical  updates and the debug on their zero for their client. I do it free because I believe in the Zero products but I would love that zero could better support the dealership than actually...

This is really sad that Ken Aubichon is no more working for Zero, he was doing an amazing job for Zero in Canada!! and also did a really well job for the multiple motorcycle show with the Zero....

Anyway.. I hope this will get better!



 
Title: Re: 2012 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: aelwero on June 27, 2014, 07:57:11 PM
everything about this makes me think of guys in the 40's/50's chopping their fenders off, putting in cutouts, dropping a merc engine in their ford buckets...

we're totally starting a whole new history :) 
Title: Re: 2012 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: WindRider on June 28, 2014, 08:25:18 AM
Awesome Doc.    Nice work. 
Title: Re: 2012 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: Doctorbass on June 28, 2014, 11:07:44 AM
OK now the best is repaired! and aligned with my custom laser alignment tool =)

I tested it during 100km with torture on the throttle!! full acceleration and deceleration

and the belt is perfect, no sign of wear!

here is a video i made to show the acceleration 8)

btw previous acceleration was 8 sec woth the stock 2012 motor and not it is at 6.4sec and can be improoved by just toping off the torque curve in the controller. it is actually set to 66Nm at 0kmh and 115Nm at about 100kmh and it could start directly at 115Nm !

http://youtu.be/JD-W3kok4h4 (http://youtu.be/JD-W3kok4h4)

Doc
Title: Re: 2012.5 SR vs 2013 S
Post by: kensiko on June 28, 2014, 06:00:16 PM
Imagine 3.3 seconds now :)