ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: walla2 on June 10, 2014, 12:40:27 PM
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I bought a new 2013 Zero FX 5.7 in December. Rode on the street three times and once off road in January in 56 degree weather. Then I left it plugged in in my garage.
In March, I found the bike unchargeable. The display was dead. The bike would only make a clicking noise, and the battery indicators are not visible.
I worked with 1800 service until mid April and it was then determined it had to go to a dealer.
Almost two months have passed and the bike still is dead. Lots of work. No solution. What recourse or suggestions do any of you have. Lemon laws don't protect small bikes in my state. Two months or more seems unreasonable for a new bike to be in service with no end in sight.
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Zero needs to help your dealer
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This is really a case where Zero needs to send someone to your dealer to work on it. I had the contactor error problem that was really tough to sort out and fix. My dealer reached a point where they were no longer willing to work on it and told Zero to send someone out to fix it. Zero did. While it is very frustrating to have a problem like this with your bike it is also very frustrating for the dealer. And Zero almost lost a dealer over my contactor error problem. Zero needs to take a long hard look at how long a problem can go on with someone's bike before they send a rep to the dealer to fix it. I realize this is not cheap for Zero to do this but if you don't take care of your dealers you will never be able to reach customers.
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What work has been done on the bike already?
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It's been very slow. Not alot of work done but lots of diagnostics. Fuses. Nope. Then wait for parts. New motherboard. Nope. Wait. New BMS chips. Wait. Nope. Plugin a new battery. Yep. The bike works. But that wasn't a new battery from zero. It was one the dealer got from another bike in for non-dead service. I do sense some dealer frustration. I'm going to call today for an update from both.
I'm thinking the three months of troubleshooting have damaged my batteries. That's three months without being charged. I have 3 electric vehicles so they can't say I didn't plug it in. I know that keeping a battery at zero isn't good for any of them.
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Try contacting Zero directly: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/contact.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/contact.php)
I'd give them 24 hours to get back to you and then begin a social media campaign, like tweeting @zeromc - but make sure you put a . before their name so that the tweet is seen by all your followers, not just zero. They also have facebook pages I'd suggest posting to.
Note: this is the exact same method I'd suggest if it were a Brammo bike or a Honda or United Airlines (which I used when United stranded me and my family in Houston). It usually doesn't have to go too far before you get the service you should be entitled to.
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I had a couple of problems with my 2014 Zero that were solved by a Zero tech. The easy one was a battery with a bad BMS, the hard issue that took the tech a couple of hours to diagnose (which he only discovered by accident) was an electrical connector that was damaged during assembly at the factory. I can see how a damaged pin on a connector might cause all sorts of odd issues, including failure to charge properly. You might ask your dealer to pull all of the electrical connectors apart and look for bent or missing pins.
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It would be great if all Zero dealers were as knowledgeable as Harlan, at Hollywood Electrics. But unfortunately that is not the real world we live in. Zero definitely needs to help out these other dealers who are stumped at finding and fixing a problem.
The suggestion to check all connectors is a good one. I have a 2001 Royal Enfield that suddenly went dead after many years. I almost went nuts trying to find the problem. Eventually I found a connector behind the headlight that was not completely engaged and had moved enough to break contact. It was obvious that it had never been plugged in, at the factory, far enough for the plastic retainer to lock it in place. Over time it moved out until it disengaged some or all of the pins. Checking connectors - a good thing! 8)
Trikester
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I would probably try to trade the bike in for a new one a year newer for a few bucks.
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A fairly new, small company that hasn't sold that many vehicles to the public and already has owners investigating their lemon law options has a problem.
dkw12002, this owner (walla2) shouldn't be expected to pay yet more money for a Zero, given their experience. Assuming they even want another Zero.
Peter
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Slow is the word. Keep in contact with whichever support tech is working with the dealer and advocate for the dealer whenever things go slowly. During my long repair I found Zero playing some brinkmanship games with the dealers - not shipping parts ahead (or offering multiple diagnostic steps in a row) - and waiting for the requests from the dealer. Find out what hoops are being deployed and help the dealer work through them. Shipping one part, trying it, shipping another part, trying it is just trying.
Lemon? It just appears to be an elusive problem rather than a slew of problems more indicative of a lemon.
Unfortunately dealer burnout could be a big problem, the dealers have other repairs in the queue for "standard" manufacturers and tying up a mechanic for hours on the phone is not good business sense. My selling dealer declined warranty work because of past Zero practices and I had to forge ahead with a different dealer.
What you do not ask for you will never get - ask for 2 months added to warranty for the delay, I asked for 12volt socket (i did not get).
Make phone calls - do not wait for phone calls. Emails seemed always to slide. Push for "past facts" - get tracking numbers on shipments rather than call back a few days later to learn "shipping" meant "shipping next week" .
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Those suggestions might work and be good steps to take but he really should not have to spend a bunch of time to do that. I don't have that much time to constantly poke and follow every move in such a situation. If it comes down to that, then that is super awful service. He bought a product, and it should do what the manufacturer said it would do. It's not like it is some 30 year old not made anymore product where they could have more problems to support. Next thing the dealer will try is some terrible fix to make it look like it works and sent you away and hope you don't ride it. Or try to blame you with some illogical reasoning. I hope the dealer doesn't pull any of those stunts. I think I am hearing too many stories of trouble with Zero, most unfortunate. They have a good start, but at some point they are going to have to move beyond just that.
I certainly did not expect so many problems with e-bikes. At first they were advertised as lower cost for maintenance, and more reliable. Maybe that is why other manufacturers have not been able to deliver anything, they are having trouble too. Anyway, I have been in his spot and no manufacturer should do that to customers.
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I agree we should not have to be so pro-active for our support - and I'd don't mind the "bleeding edge" struggles with ramping up in any new technology, but this lethargic repair process has no place at this price-point.
It seems the QA process is left to the first owner. I suspect the fault with my bike would have been evident in the first logs off the production line. That is fine if repairs can be timely.
I will say (and I presume others will too) that once repaired my bike is a delight to ride and to own.
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So as an update. My BMS boards actually never got sent by Zero. That was THREE weeks ago when I was told they were sent one day air by John at Zero service.
I am not happy. I've been very patient. I will not be any longer. I will try again to reach Zero service. I am going to request the bike repaired in a week (7 days) or a new nonrefurbished replacement be provided. Corporate Zero may say no to both, but I really feel like they have not made my bike repair a priority and warranty laws do offer some protection for this type of neglegence.
I would not buy this bike again had I known Zero service would be provided.
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Good luck walla2 - please keep us updated.
I realize this is just one anecdote, but when Zero forgot to send out one of the parts that they should have, and I rang and nagged about it, they shipped the parts straight to me overnight. I get the impression that the service guys at Zero are totally swamped (maybe Zero needs to employ a couple more of them?).
You're not alone having buyer's remorse with your Zero.
Peter
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Walla2,
Our Customer Service department has read your posts and wants to help you through this situation. We are unsure which dealer you are working with and we can't match your forum profile to anything in our customer database. Would you please send an email to service@zeromotorcycles.com and include the last 7 digits of your VIN and the dealer? We are looking for this so we can get this resolved.
Sorry that you are having issues.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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Funny. Customer service calls just go to voicemail now. My last email got "lost in a filter" and took 5 business days to reply to.
I left a voicemail again today on my third call in. I'll email again and see what happens. I'm glad someone at Zero is, interested, but I just want a working bike back. The dealer isn't doing anything because only 1 part has shipped in 2 months. 1 freaking part. Lousy.
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What i found, when Customer service was lacking.
Press 9 to dial by name (instead of 2 for "customer service")
Voicemail dials by firstname - "Aaron"
Will reach the guy who wants to talk to you.
Even hitting directly to technical support - I dial by name to avoid the general mailbox.
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Your experience echoes my frustrations, there is something seriously wrong at Zero when they allow a customer to experience this level of poor service. They seem blind to that fact that a dissatisfied customer will typically tell 10 other people about their bad experience.
I put it down to the fact that they are not a proper company in a trading sense in that they don't operate at a profit and are financed by investment from the State and their financial backers Invus so there is no reason for them to worry about the company going bust because of low sales, unreliable products or bad service as they are just continually bankrolled regardless of how they perform. The products have become overly complicated to the
point where a simple diagnosis or rectification is hardly ever possible without a high level of technical knowledge which they do not willingly distribute.
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Zero may be having a problem with dealing with distance to their customers. I have had very good service from Zero. But then I live only about 70 miles away from the factory. Twice in 2012 they sent a truck to my home, picked up by bike, took it to the factory and replaced a throttle assembly and later reprogrammed the computer to fix the "glitch". Earlier this year they sent a technician to my dealer's service department and he spent two hours getting my power tank to work properly (when the dealer's technician couldn't) while I waited. I suspect that they are much more focused on selling new bikes, rather than repairing sold ones. If that is the case, I would agree that they are being "penny wise and pound foolish" - unless the plan is to sell the company relatively soon to some big outfit that wants to buy into the technology without needing to perform the R&D themselves. ???
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zap, in this instance 10 may be an underestimate.
My experience (and okay, this is anecdote): There's lots of interest in the Zero (when it's on the road) but once people hear about how long it works vs how long it's been off the road, there's this - oh - response. And folks who've seen it over the year we've had it and are interested in motorcycles are now at the - well it seemed like a good idea, didn't it - stage.
Not great advertising.
Back on topic - walla2, any news?
Peter
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The bike is still dead. Over 3 months now and over 2 months in service.
Zero called Monday and blamed the dealer for not ordering parts but the dealer says they have been waiting for parts. Knowing that a month ago Zero said they were overnighting the BMS chips and had talked to my dealer doesn't give me a lot of confidence in what I've been told from corporate service at least in my case. Corporate did apologize for all that is worth. I told Zero to fix it by Friday or keep it. Today is Friday and all I know is that my BMS chips finally arrived on Tuesday.
Dead and unchargeable batteries for 3 months will likely hurt their range and longevity. I am very concerned about this given that most of the cost of the bike is the battery. I doubt that will be addressed at all by Zero or the dealer even though not charging voids the battery warranty . . .
Everyone that knows I have the bike has asked where it is. Saying the new bike has been in service for 3 months = zero more sales in my area.
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BMS chips didn't fix it according to my conversation with the dealer. Now supposedly new batteries and more boards are on the way but shipping Lithium is an issue that will slow things down. Another week lost but maybe my damaged batteries will be replaced after all.
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I wanted to let Zero know that I was very tempted to buy the 2014 FX and was very close to heading over to the local cherry hill nj zero dealership. I was excited about the low maintenance promise of the bike as advertised and I planned to keep it inside my loft condo at night plugging it in and riding it during the day to work in Philadelphia. However after reading through this forum and this topic specifically I feel reliability and excellent customer support are lacking. I hope you take the issue of word of mouth seriously and improve your product and service.
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Hard to say. I have 7300 miles on my 2013 S and after a year have only had one issue...a turn signal solenoid that needed replacement. That was a 2-day repair since they had to get the part from Zero. They did have the recall for new firmware and the dealer/owner picked up the bike in the morning from my house, did the recall work that day and returned it to my house that evening. So my bike has been dependable and dealer service has been excellent.
Don't give up on Zero. You might consider a demo if you have/or can find a good dealer. At least then you know the bike works and you might get it for a better price too. That's what I bought. Mine had 255 miles on it...(a few of those miles were mine from test-riding it). What I like about the bike is no warming it up, it is light and FAST, has a little storage, and doesn't overheat in bumper to bumper traffic in hot Texas summer. I'm too short for an FX, or I might have got that model.
No reason you couldn't take the bike inside to charge it if there are no stairs and you can get it through the doors of your condo without too much trouble. Nothing could leak except brake fluid and there's no gas smell for sure.
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This is an interesting thread about the level of service and communication from dealer to Zero and vice versa.
My own experience as a three-year Zero owner has been very good. I have had problems with the motorcycle including some downtime but Zero has been fantastic in resolving issues and being very supportive with parts even after my warranty expired. The caveat for me has been that I did all the repair work myself as I am not near a dealer. I don't have any advanced electronics knowledge, actually no electronics knowledge at all, but the repairs have all been easy to do. All correspondence with Zero was through email and a few phone calls. I have to say 9.5/10 on the support directly from Zero. I have 16,000 miles on my 2010 DS.
My experience with the nearest dealer has been negative, even to the point that the salespeople were derogatory about electric motorcycles when I called to ask about the new models. I get the impression that this "idiocy" is pretty common with dealerships judging by what I see on the forums (other than a few like Hollywood electrics and Mission in SF) and I feel that dealer service departments lack the commitment to actually learn enough about the motorcycles to be able to repair them. That is just my opinion, however. I had a single experience with "my" dealer trying to work with Zero and it went nowhere, that seems to be a common problem.
When it comes time to buy another electric I will likely choose Zero (they need standard level 2 charging before that happens) but I really do not want to through a dealer to get it unless I have to. If Tesla can sell direct why couldn't Zero do it too? I think the dealer system is archaic and it can hurt sales and maybe even service as much as it helps.
I think most Zero owners are extremely happy with their motorcycles and they accept that there could be a few bumps along the way.
Oregonrider89
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I'd love to love my Zero, but its been broken longer than functional. I really hope I can get a working bike and enjoy it again. The idea of having every component replaced sounds like I bought a refurbished bike and not a new one though and the time in service is or at least can be ridiculously slow. If it starts working, I'll accept the refurbished bike back but with less than 100 miles on it again this seems a bit much to have had done and the lack of urgency in tracking this repair is something that needs to change.
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They should also extend your warranty for the time itvtaken to fix it.
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69 days in service today and 90 days since the bike died and it remains in service. My dealer is still waiting on parts.
No other contact or update from Zero. Zilch. Over two weeks since I complained heavily to Zero and still no progress on the repair.
I really don't see what else I can do except wait further or seek counsel.
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Sorry to hear that you are still down walla2.
This seems really odd to me that it could possibly take that long to troubleshoot and solve a battery problem on an FX5.7. The battery modules with embedded BMS can be removed from the bike in seconds. There are 2 of them so it should be really easy to tell if the problem is from the battery module or the bike.
If the problem is in the battery module Zero should have swapped out the whole module by now and just fixed it for the customer.
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Sorry to hear that you are still down walla2.
This seems really odd to me that it could possibly take that long to troubleshoot and solve a battery problem on an FX5.7. The battery modules with embedded BMS can be removed from the bike in seconds. There are 2 of them so it should be really easy to tell if the problem is from the battery module or the bike.
If the problem is in the battery module Zero should have swapped out the whole module by now and just fixed it for the customer.
That is what Zero did for my 2014 S. The "power tank" is an FX module and it had a bad bms. They replaced it and fixed a bent pin in a connector, getting my bike working perfectly again. It took less than a week to set up the service appointment and just two hours for the Zero technician to perform the work. I saw him walk past me while I was waiting, carrying the bad module on his shoulder to be put into his car for the ride back to the factory. I just don't understand why it is taking Zero so long to solve your problem. They really need to step up their after-sales customer service before word of these sorts of problems start cutting into their sales and customers start drifting over to Brammo, who apparently has excellent after-sales service, according to owner reports.
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It seems to be hit or miss, with maybe some correlation to where one lives (California owners seem to get pretty good service).
I had the Glitch 2.0 recall done at my local dealer (finally), after about 3 months of waiting. The dealer said at first they were waiting on the laptop and cable from Zero. Then several weeks later they said Zero was going to charge them $1200 for that equipment. They weren't big on continuing to be a Zero dealer anyway, having sold 1 bike and given away 1 in a promotion in over a year. But that still sounded odd to me, so I called Zero. They did some checking, told me the $1200 wasn't true, and said they had things resolved. A couple weeks later my bike was flashed (I never had the glitch though). The shop manager told me when I picked it up that they were shipping the remaining inventory back to Zero and exiting the electric bike business (too bad, thought I might get a 2013 cheap ;)).
In the end I don't know whose fault it was, and while the dealer was good at fixing my bike's fork woes, they weren't comfortable with the electrics/electronics, and didn't seem to have much positive to say about Zero. (Some of their other comments about people in the area "wanting power" led me to believe they hadn't ridden an SR, but I digress.)
Bottom line, the country's 4th-largest city is without a Zero dealer. Even if this stuff is not Zero's fault, it will become their problem if they don't figure out where the communication gaps are.
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Just to provide a random comment: A Zero marketing guy told me that they had 60 dealers world wide. This compares relatively favorably with the 160 motorcycle dealers that well-established BMW has in the U.S. So Zero has signed up a pretty decent number of dealers during their short corporate life. But can they properly manage and support that many dealers and at those distances from their HQ in Scotts Valley, CA?
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Good news. The dealer is telling me the bike is now fixed as of 7/3 pm. 96 days later. Thanks for your suggestions to get things moving. They really did help. I will post a last update assuming the bike does really work and a list of what was done when I can travel 4 hours to my dealer and then 4 hours back.
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Good news!
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Hollywood Electrics needs to expand to more locations so everyone can have a great experience like those of us who got ours there. Although I was in Orlando FL, I had my Zero shipped 2600 miles from them vs drive 60 miles to the closest dealer in Florida at the time. Glad I did. Everyone out there who is still waiting to get one, remember that.
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I've been meaning to join this forum for some time now, finally managed it today. What a breath of fresh air this place is after the endless "electric sucks!" noise at most of the ICE sites.
I got a 2014 FX in February from Eckenhoff in Cherry Hill NJ (runs great!) and another used one from them last week (220 mi., low on power, error codes, motor noise, etc.). I'm just starting out on the repair journey, and would greatly appreciate any advice, suggestions, etc. The Brooklyn, NY dealer (Carbon Negative) advised me to try using the Zero iPhone app to initiate the first stage of diagnostics with Zero in CA, it sounds like a good place to start.
Ray Ivers
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Good news, Walla2!
I agree with some of the other comments regarding propagation challenges for complex new technology. I'm sure Zero is exploring solutions, from call centers and subcontract tech/support centers, and will address the issues presented here much better with time. I've been in the technology start-up field for many years and understand that plateaus are often reached in technology adoption.
I'm not an apologist for Zero technical support challenges, just stating I, personally, understand and am impressed enough with the state of their product development that we just purchased another 2014 DS. My first DS had no problems beyond initial display glitch, and the second DS is being repaired at the factory, assisting the local dealer, and will be delivered to my home on Monday. Frustration, yes, and understanding it's a leading edge product with normal growth challenges that will translate to a maturing company growth stage tempers it a bit.
I, personally, feel ok with assisting and supporting a Federally supported California high-tech company start-up that is ushering more people, including me, into an alternative energies future.
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My Zero FX is dead again. Same exact problem. Charging fine and riding fine. Toast this morning. No green light. No screen. Dead.
Zero service is closed. Left a message. Will call again Monday morning.
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So as an update, my batteries again show no signs of life. The reset button doesn't work and my BMS chips don't light up. The bike screen won't turn on. The charging light won't turn on. It took new batteries to fix the bike last time and these are behaving the same leading me to believe something charge related is damaging the batteries or not charging them.
Service has recommended I take it to a dealer on my tI me and at my expense. Last time they offered to make this up to me but I told them I just wanted a working bike, and I did not accept anything. Looks like another several weeks to months without a working bike plus now I have to transport the dead bike 265 miles for drop off and later 265 miles for pickup.
MF jones!
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The root issue is that Zero does not want to keep throwing parts and money at an incompetent dealership. This is exactly why Tesla does their work direct; the old garde refuse to learnin new tricks, and simply turn derogatory when expected to think.
Don't get down on Zero over your dealership. Electrics are much simpler than ICEs, they're just different, and the people doing the work are memorizers, not understanders. They won't learn how. It's not inability. If you can rebuild an ICE, you're far more than capable of solving anything on an electric. It's just a matter of willingness to learn new things; which they are unwilling.
Zero's fault in this is not screening dealerships for competence.
Personally, I would never have taken it to a dealership for service. I learned that lesson a long time ago... They just plain can't be trusted. I'd keep the bike and deal direct with Zero, and do the repair work myself. If you're willing to learn the new tricks that your dealership is not, you'll find electrics are really not that hard.
I'm keeping my eyes open for any comparable electric bikes announced for 2015 who might sell direct. It's just stupid to deal with dealerships because they want to keep the old ways alive... You may as well be counting in the KKK to teach diversity tolerance by having conventional motorsports knuckle-draggers sell and work on an electric. They'll destroy your business and never take responsibility.
I don't blame Zero for not sending more parts and more parts and more parts... As with everything, I'd advise stepping up and being your own service department, no one will ever do a better job than you. I bet you get results fast once you cut the dealership out of it. Mark my words.
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Sorry camosoul but as someone with similar issues with a Zero (2012 XU) what you're saying is incorrect. Zero used to work with owners to fix their bikes while under warranty. I've been advised by Zero that I have to get my non-working bike to the dealer (120 miles away) for it to be fixed there.
My wife and I are finally at the point (work, kids, life etc) where one of us should be able to drop the bike off some time soonish, and hopefully after that it might get fixed.
Personally, I think you're being a little unfair on dealerships. What's in selling Zeros for a normal motorcycle dealership? Presumably not much money on the sale, and it's not like they have years of checking desmo valve clearances (or insert service cost of your choice here) to make money off with Zeros is there? And then they can be stuck dealing with what appears to be a pretty bad run of unreliability issues under warranty. I've been much more impressed with the attitude shown by my dealer than Zero.
The root issue is, which I blame Zero for (to run with your expressions) is that they have produced a motorcycle with very serious build quality problems. And apparently changing their process for dealing with warranty issues after selling the bikes doesn't help.
And by the way, I do the servicing on my ICE bikes.
Peter
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I agree, that QC at Zero needs more attention.
Trikester
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A service manual and a service process is lacking.
I've worked with Zero and I've guided a dealer in working with Zero.
I never got a genuine troubleshooting process... I got "try this" and report what happens. This "guess and go" process delayed resolution, frustrated user, distracted support and easily would lead to errant part shipping (once they ever shipped).
A mere bad thermistor - I provided the resistance and received the manufacturer technical sheet on the thermistor. I'd expected Zero provide what their QA range should be.
The dealer reported the same - no service guide, not getting what the readings should be, and the tolerances added time and frustration to troubleshooting efforts.
If they are going to leave us to "hunt and peck" I proposed a "bike in a box" with every readily shippable reasonably possible part (not frame, tires, seat, mirrors...) allowing the timely part swap and "see if that works" without the anguish of awaiting the next shipment or instruction.
Build quality? Check the welds, you know they build with quality... (but also with crappy plastics) and we all know we are the shakedown process - I get that - but getting us back on the road quickly (even if not scaleably cost effective) will get feedback to manufacturing faster to improve the process so larger production volume does not overrun support.
Dealer competence was never a concern... Dealer persistence and Dealer willingness to jump through hoops was always a concern.
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What worries me is that many established IC dealers that are selling Zeros because they wanted to get on the "ground floor" with the technology might now be giving the whole idea of selling electric motorcycles second thoughts. If EVs get a bad reputation in the retail industry because they are not thought to be reliable and nothing but trouble for the dealer and their service and parts departments, then dealers will drop the product, stranding their customers, and new EV retail outlets will be hard to find - stalling out any chance to establish electric motorcycles as a viable alternative to IC bikes. :(
Zero really needs to get QC under control and be willing to fix after sales problems, even if it does cost money to do so and slows development of next year's models. This goose might one day lay a golden egg, but not if you starve it first. ::)
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Personally, I think you're being a little unfair on dealerships. What's in selling Zeros for a normal motorcycle dealership? Presumably not much money on the sale, and it's not like they have years of checking desmo valve clearances (or insert service cost of your choice here) to make money off with Zeros is there? And then they can be stuck dealing with what appears to be a pretty bad run of unreliability issues under warranty. I've been much more impressed with the attitude shown by my dealer than Zero.
It's a bummer that Zero won't work directly with the owner. Bad move for them.
Unfair? $30 to mount and balance a tire?
Dealerships' bread and butter is overcharging for bad ideas that constantly fall apart. Their entire existence is predicated upon selling a product that doesn't work and charging exorbitant amounts of money to fix it. Unfair is me being their personal welfare check.
My position is certainly slanted by the fact that I've never received anything but scowls and huge bills for nothing from dealerships. I can afford it, but why get screwed if you don't have to?
The bottom line. The threat of a reliable bike that needs no maintenance. All they would get is the sale, no constant bilking post-sale. Dealerships want electric to fail. Zero is playing into their hands by failing to back it up themselves. This is why Tesla doesn't play that game.
Zero needs to dump dealerships and go direct, or they're not going to make it. Seems like they're making a combination of the worst decisions they possibly can...
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I think just the opposite about dealerships. An electric motorcycle is not a do-it-yourself project for most people, who would need a dealer. I think for a motorcycle company to do well they have to have dealers. Kudos to those who can fix things and want to fix things themselves, but I think Zero would like to increase sales as their #1 goal and I don't see that happening without dealers. I think dealers do very well with profit margins on Zero bikes. The problem is they don't sell many bikes. Well, Hollywood Electric probably sells a lot of bikes, but not too many other dealerships do.
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In the first years Zero did sell direct to customers and did not have dealers. If it got them the results they wanted they would not have started a dealer network. Mission seems to be selling direct to customers without dealers as they advertise they deliver each bike personally to the customer. Of course time will tell if any Mission motorcycles ever get dellivered. I have emailed Lightening twice about how they plan to deliver and have not gotten a response.
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So the bike arrived in Seattle on Saturday and service called me today. The pulled logs show no functoning components whatsoever. They were sent off to Zero for interpretation.
Don't really like the sound of zero functioning systems. More updates to follow.
As for the dealer model discussion, I don't mind dealers but a small company with a need to impress to succeed model needs to in my opinion go out of their way to follow these problem bikes helping both the owners and the dealers.
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I had the same issue with my 2014 Zero FX 5.7. At around 800 miles it stopped charging, and just clicked repeatedly when you plugged it in, like a faulty relay. The bms board had been throwing errors, and was replaced, but didn't help the charging issue. After a few months in the shop..zero sent a new 'ccu' board (charging controller unit) and it has worked fine for the last 200 miles.
Good luck, although at this point I'd request a new bike from Zero, or through the lemon law if they refuse. Lemons happen, and it should be sent back to zero to be diagnosed and studied.
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How did it go for you Walla2? Did the bike get fixed?
I've been in a process with Zero for A YEAR AND A HALF NOW(!!), and my 2012 Zero S still hasn't been fixed!
I started with the order of the 2010 S back in december 2009, and got this in august 2010..
On this the motor broke 3 times, each time after running for about 500km..
I sent the bike back to the Netherlands, and received an offer to buy up for the 2012 in November 2011.
Received this in March 2012 and the first problem started after a week..
I believed the problem was water-intrution somewhere, but Zero ment it was the kickstand, and sent a new switch..
In April 2012 the bike started up by itself(!) without the key in it, and while I was on vacation.
The bike was even possible to ride!
Zero sent a mechanic from The Netherlands to get it fixed in the end of May, and he found moisture in some contacts below the seat..
Shortly after the 12V-310 BMS weatherproofing recall came..
After this the bike was working great for many months, because of a dry summer, automn and winter here in Norway.
In the end of November 2013 problems started again. This time the bike usually started in the morning so I could get to work, but if there was some water on the road, I usually couldn't get home from work..
This was emailed to Zero, and they ment that the problem was caused by the throttle assy..
Received the parts in the end of December, but this didn't help..
In March Zero ment that this could be related to recall SV-ZMC-R-059 (The Glitch), and offered three ways to fix this:
- Drive the bike to the nearest dealer (2000km)
- Send a field mechanic
- Send the bike back to The Netherlands
I left it to Zero to come up with the best solution, since driving 2000km to the nearest dealer was out of the question..
After this I didn't hear anything from Zero again..
In June (a year ago!), I startet testing by my own what actually caused the problem.
After washing the bike with a sponge and a bucket of water and the bike didn't start afterwards..
I had allways ment that the problem was water-intrution, and I started applying water with a syringe around the bike, and tried to start the bike in between..
If it didn't start I had to wait till it got dried out, and then check further on the bike..
My conclusion after more than 50 hours was that applying water to any of the orange cables made the bike didn't start after a while..
In august 2014 I got an email that they got a dealer in Norway that could handle the case for me.
The only problem was that they didn't have the proper training to do anything with the bike, and it was just in the middle of January that I could deliver the bike there to get it fixed..
In mid April they still hadn't done anything with the bike, except to wash it.. They had to get a new computer to get the logg from the bike..
In May I got a mesage from the dealer that they had pulled the logg (without any errors), upgraded the firmware and that the bike was ready to get picked up..
I said that that didn't help much, because the problem was water-intrution, and again instructed them to do the same as I did over a year ago, and apply water to it and check if it started.. In the end of May I got a message that after a day of testing, they got it to not start (it looks like the cables are brittle and that it takes some time before the water gets trough..)..
3 weeks ago I got an "offer" that Zero could replace the motor "as a one-time-offer of goodwill", since they ment that the bike was out of warranty (bullshit!),
but if anything happened with the bike after this I was on my own,
or I could buy up to a new 2014 SR for 5000€. This was after some weeks reduced to 2000€, but after all the work I've done, and time I spent trying to get a solution, and the time I've been without the bike, I'm not interested in paying more money for a bike that I've allready have paid more for than the new 2015 SR costs.
I've now given them till Tuesday 2015-06-30 12:00 CET to pay me back all the money I've paid for the 2010 and up to 2012.
I don't expect them to do so, but after this I can start the next process with the European Consumer Network and lawyers..
Meanwhile I'm gathering as much information I can about others having the same problems with not reaching trough with their clames to Zero, and about the problems with water-intrution like I had. I see in other posts on this forum that others have had the same problems as me, so Zero has been aware of this problem before I told them about it, regarding that they have said that they didn't hear about this before.. :-p
I'm also preparing to go the media/Socialmedia, but that would ruin the market for Zero here in Norway, so I'm not interested in doing this at this point..
I used to LOVE riding the Zero S, but the last year has been a pain in the ass..
If you have had this kind of problems, please send me an PM!
Toghether we have to believe we are stronger!!
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Sorry but you are crazy for not taking a 16000 bike for 2000..... Talk about holding onto something so long you get the short end of the stick....
You have a old did bike and they're willing to make it right and you will not let Them
Every model year 12 zero owner would be over joyed to trade their bike in for a 14; I'm stunned you think that getting your money back is a better option that everyone you and including zero knows isn't going to happen ur money is long gone....
If you really wanted your money back take the fucking bike and sell it.....duh. The sr used is worth almost 2x what you paid for you 2010...
Edit: for brammofan because he thinks I'm offensive because I called you dumb for not taking the deal sorry.... >:(
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Cortez - your reply is offensive an uncalled-for. Let's try to keep this forum a welcoming community, not a place for personal attacks.
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Sorry you feel that way but there are plenty of people who have spend 2x 3x as much as he as on a zero and have less to show for it than him, zero is willing to give him a new bike for 2000. What more do you expect from a company? I don't know any other motorcycle company that would replace a 4 year old bike with a 2 year old bike and when that one unfortunately has the same proplem offer to give him another new bike.... I wish I would ride my bikes into huge storms and every time it stops working is get a new bike for a small fee.
This was not personal attach, I'm calling it now I see it. I personally own more died 2012 zeros than everyone who posted in this thread..... I think that makes my opinion here valid; sorry if you think it's harsh.....
1 they are not going to give money from 2009 back.... No company would, that's like asking for interest too
2. They offered service as best they could at the time having no dealer in your area(no one besides the factory ie a handful of people know to work on the 2012 s bikes, dealers don't know how to work on them, and they aren't going to get trained on how to)
3. They offered you a new bike... Sure sounds like they did the right thing to.... Twice.....
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Knowing that electric motorcycles can be a little upset at times while riding in the rain or while being washed, I tend to keep my bike as dry as possible. There are lots of "waterless" car wash products on the market and I use them to clean my Zero (especially with our drought in CA). So far my 2014 Zero has been running perfectly. However, I will admit to not riding in the rain or on wet streets if I can avoid it - which is easy to do as I am retired and can plan my trips for pleasant weather.
My daughter never washes the 2012 Zero that I gave her and it is still running fine - other than an occasional "glitch" once or twice a year. ???
I think Zero really needs to better address waterproofing on their motorcycle electrical connections. But I imagine this is really difficult on a motorcycle. While riding in the rain, water gets everywhere - especially where the sun don't shine. ;)
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Also who have you been talking to at zero who did you tell you want your money back? Your dealer isn't going to portray the message like your paragraph does. If you are only talking to customer service that may be the other issue, they have clout but let's face it Arron is given a budget to cover service on the newer bikes first then the older bikes. They are clearly trying to get you into a more stable and reliable bike.
I don't think Arron has the power to even issue you a refund, customer service can't even proscess and credit card.... There is no way Arron has a company checkbook he can just write you a refund check, no that comes from the finance department and honestly I have never heard of them giving a refund, so I don't think it has ever happened.
If you want out pay the 2000 take the sr and sell it to the dealer
Right now you stated you lost more than a 2015sr costs so you have paid for your 2009 bike basically 2 times. Roughly 18000 to make it a easy number.... So if you got lucky and they refunded you you would get maybe 8000 back.... Still 10k in The hole.
If you pay the 2000 you would have spend 20000 and sell your bike back to the dealer for 15000 you only loose 5k not 10k.... Your choice
You still lost a whole lot less money than you would have and you got to ride a new sr, which if you do ride it you won't get ride of it.....
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Let me transfer this to buying a TV:
I buy a new plasma TV for $1000 in 2010.
This breaks down 3 times and you trade in the 2010 for the 2012 LCD for $300 (original price $1300).
After one week you can't use the remote control and have to stand up and press on the TV to change channel.. The seller tries to fix it..
After another year you can't use the remote again, and the maker of the TV says that they don't think they will be able to fix it,
and gives you the option to buy the latest LCD (original price $1200) for another $300..
Would you do that?
I'm aware that the consumer laws are different around the world, but here in Europe they are quite strong and uniform.
If a seller (Zero directly), can't deliver the expected quality of a product they can get the chance to fix it, replace it with a similar product, or get you the money back.
I've been clear with Zero from the first emails to the US, that I intended to use the bike in the winter, and they ment it would be a good thing, the bike would get get properly tested under extreme conditions.
With the 2010 model I didn't have any problems with water-intrusion (the problem here was the brushes wich got burned out).
If I only could drive the bike when its dry, I think I could have used the bike 4 days last summer.. :P
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Would you do that?
If I liked the TV? Hell yes, in a heartbeat. It would be an very good deal.
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..And for how long would you continue to do that?
It's not a leasing-deal I bought..
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Its a fair bit cheaper than taking the hit on the depreciation, so I'd happily do it indefinitely. ;)
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Like I said
Everyone in here would take the new bike in a heartbeat I don't think you could find someone on this forum who wouldn't
Should we message flexydude? He is a perfect example, has had WAY more issues that you jogjengaar, I'm sure he would say yes in his sleep to a new bike for 2000
Vanessa who's having motor issues and no warren tee help, she would take the bike in a heartbeat too
But you just lost all credibility with me
"If I only could drive the bike when it's dry, I think I could have used the bike 4 days last summer"
Ya because there are only 4 sunny days in a year....come on man you don't live in hell where the sun shines 4 days out of each season or 4 months.
I really hope your next post on this forum is taking the bike.....
The U.S. Laws are just as good as far as lemon laws so we would all have the same option to "get your money back" notice not one has and typically zero has made it right even if it takes a while
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The fact that you would pay, only shows that you lack the integrity and perseverance to do the right thing..
If the bike is under warranty and Zero can't fix the problem, they either give you a model that works or they give you your money back.
It's as simple as that.
I'm prepared to go all the way! :-)
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only shows that you lack the integrity and perseverance to do the right thing
Err, yeah... sure, whatever...
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Vanessa who's having motor issues and no warren tee help, she would take the bike in a heartbeat too
So would I if my warranty was out..
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4658.msg32077#msg32077 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4658.msg32077#msg32077)
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But have you even asked for help?
Have you called zero directly? Have you talked to Arron directly? Let me guess no....
And it sure seems like your bike is out of warrantee considering you originally bought a bike in 09 buddy.... Even if the 12 was still under warrantee doesn't seem like you went about contacting them the right way, or it sure seems.
You at you have had issues for years but someone like Vanessa has gotten her issues solved in a matter of a few weeks. So clearly someone who is so preservant would be able to contact the factory.....
I told you to take the bike because that is the only way your going to get anything out of zero
Considering you say "the glitch" started years ago..... The mbb will tell them everything they need to know and exactly when it started having issues to find everything you said to be true or not... And considering they already offered you a new bike and you refused. You have littl recourse now besides taking the bike, or "forcing them to fix your bike"
If you go buy a brand new bmw, Porsche (even better example because I've seen it happen)
You get a brand new car you paid retail for..... Motor has the a European head and a American head, throws check engine lights immediately after driving for a few miles. They offer to REPLACE the car with a 2 year newer car..... Owner refused because he wanted that car (which had a color then discontinued). At that point the main service for the dealership finished the car and quit because of the corporate issues associated with the car. But the point I was getting at is....
Legally because they offered you a new vehicle in replacement and then your not so smart ass refused; they don't have to do anything they dont want to now. Consider that bike as good as the check..... You refused it..... They dont have to do anything for you now.... Sad but true..... The bike was the check.... You ripped it in half and threw it at them.... You can take the bike or yell them to fix the 12.... they are going to say that bike is not road worthy and their best solution was to give you a new bike with YOU REFUSED.... So you let yourself loose all that money
They aren't going to fix that 2012; tried to make it right and you won't let them.
Next time make your own thread if you want to have a zero complain off instead of sidetracking someone else's thread.
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To top it all off where do you live again?
Shipping to that location is probably half of the 2000$ anyway so look at t like you are paying for shipping 1 time there and back......
If they had offered to fix the bike they could tell you to get the bike to them..... Meaning crate and ship your 2012 and then pay to get t shipped back....
Instead they are leaving you with a bike that works.... And giving you another..... For 2000$
And since you brought up the numbers
Please list
How much you paid for the first bike?
How much for taxes+ import fees?
How much time it has been non commission?
How many trips to the dealer?
How many dollars spent total?
Hoany dollars taking it to the dealer?
You say you have spend more than a new sr costs.... Let's see the numbers..... You can prove my model wrong if you can show that 2000$ far exceedes what you have put into the bikes plus the upgrade plus travel plus whatever else you can tack on....
I find it hard to believe that you can't look at the fact they are trying to make it right and you still refuse, yes 2000$ might be a lot but if you let it sit; to replace the "glitch" is 1600 as quoted to Vanessa to fix.... The. You might be able to sell your bike for 4000$ so a massive loss. For 400$ more you could get something that is still under warentee, and is easily 100% better than the 2012s....
I've had a lot of issues with my 12s, none with any models prior to that and very very few with the bikes after that.....
The 2012s are like fords found on road died; fucked over rebuild dodge
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If someone had given me $3.5M I would be looking to ensure the reputation of my company was beyond reproach and I would just sort out all the "warranty" issues without argument. Many proper modern day companies employ people to monitor message boards like this to ensure the reputation of the company is not damaged. Imagine the amazing reputation Zero would have if they fixed the bikes without quibble and/or gave new ones. They would change from being a troublesome brand to one that looks after their customers no matter what, which in turn would attract more customers through the front door. Not dealing with customers problems is a profound mistake and a missed opportunity to invest in the future of the brand.
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If someone had given me $3.5M I would be looking to ensure the reputation of my company was beyond reproach and I would just sort out all the "warranty" issues without argument. Many proper modern day companies employ people to monitor message boards like this to ensure the reputation of the company is not damaged. Imagine the amazing reputation Zero would have if they fixed the bikes without quibble and/or gave new ones. They would change from being a troublesome brand to one that looks after their customers no matter what, which in turn would attract more customers through the front door. Not dealing with customers problems is a profound mistake and a missed opportunity to invest in the future of the brand.
I agree; and I've been watching; seems like more and more issues are getting solved than unsolved, specially as of late.
But if you do the math on how much it cost to replace each problem bike out there with a new 14 and up that is a big number.... Companies need to consume that loss over time not replace all the 12s at once, that how you go upside down real quick. If you do it as they have issues, seems like they are doing the right thing....
Zap, you should have some good advise for jogjangaar, what would you do? Take the bike or persue your full refund from 4 years ago (plus the 2000, 2 years ago for the new 2012 bike)?
I think you have MORE say than many on here, there are not to many people who have fleets of motorcycles....
I'd like to see what you would do if you were in his position.....
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So I haven’t been following this thread, and just saw this bit form a few days ago -
Cortezdtv
« on: June 26, 2015, 06:17:58 PM »
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Like I said
Everyone in here would take the new bike in a heartbeat I don't think you could find someone on this forum who wouldn't
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You've found me. There's no way of earth I'd ever consider a Zero again. XU has worked since late last year, but I don't trust it and I don't trust Zero.
jogjengaar, lykke til
mvh
Peter
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Takk, Peter. ;)
Will post later to keep people updated! :)
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So, I posted elsewhere that my 2013 got replaced with a new 2015. That was above and beyond what I expected Zero to do.
Sadly, my 2015 died as well so back to service for 2 dead batteries. They were replaced. I hope this is the last problem with this zero maintenance bike!
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So, I posted elsewhere that my 2013 got replaced with a new 2015.
Without any more payment in between?
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I took and would recommend taking a replacemental without payment. Cars and bikes depreciate rapidly. The second you buy it it's worth 25 percent less. 10000 mIles and its 40% off. They payment they are making is a newer bike with more features and less depreciation. Ideally they would do something more but the reality is we want them around for a long time and they won't make it if they spend all their money on more.