ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: peter on March 16, 2014, 06:18:48 AM
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I've posted a couple of times stating that Zeros can be unreliable. By way of explanation, here's my Zero story. The first three paragraphs of this are excerpted from a post I made previously. Rest is self-explanatory. Our household's experience with an XU.
I've got a 2012 XU that my wife commutes back roads to work on (well, my wife owns & rides it, but I keep the household's motorcycles going, so I'm responsible for the Zero). I'm coming to this from a history of Eurobikes. My current commuter bike is a 1981 Morini 500. Picked up the 2012 XU during the "cash for carbon" deal in late March 2013. We live in the Northeast USA.
Had the bike 4 days and the horn stopped working. I traced the problem to the horn itself, took Zero 2 weeks to send out a new one. Late June the bike stopped dead a couple of miles from home, I managed to get it working long enough to get home. Then it stopped completely. My wife, who'd been riding it when it first stopped, said it sounded like something in the throttle assembly went click - so I emailed the dealer we got it from to send me out another throttle assembly. The dealer, btw, is 120 miles away, and our nearest dealer. (I pointed out that as I'd just fitted a completely new ignition system to the Morini, I was probably up to fitting a new throttle assembly). This coincided with us heading overseas for a while, so the bike sat for a couple of months.
It took me a while to get back to it, and when I did, folks at the dealer said as a warranty job, they'd have to do it and couldn't send me the part. I tried to get the head of their service dept for a chat, we did the phone tag thing a few times, and never caught up. In the end I gave up and - we don't have a truck (carbon accounting?), and hiring a truck wasn't cheaper enough, by the time I included the 240 mile round trip - so the dealer came & picked up the bike. They've got it fixed pretty quickly - just under 2 weeks from it being picked up early November 2013. Transport cost for the warranty work was $450.
We got the XU back late November. The dealer changed over the throttle assembly and “recalibrated the system†to quote their email. They had it working. Between weather, work and kids, I didn't get to ride it in to work until a bit before Christmas. So I get on the bike, turn the key and – nothing. No response. Hmm - thinks I – not so good. I turn the key a few more times, and it turns on. So – maybe a glitchy connection in the key switch.
It seemed silly to ring the dealer without trying to ride the bike, so I rode it to work (15 minutes on backroads, just what an XU is made for). Got off, turned it off, took the key out – and the lights stayed on. Oh dear, thinks I. Re-insert the key, turn it off, and it goes off. Scratch my head - bad key switch? Leave the bike in the car park, wander in to work.
Come out that evening – it's cold, raining and dark. Of course. As I walk towards the bike, I see a light shining on. Again, I say to myself - oh dear (well, not really oh dear this time). So the lights and instruments are lit up, and have been on for about an hour and a half. By magic, with the key in my pocket and me in my office the whole time. So I try turning the bike off with the key. No joy. So I turn the bike “on†with the key, roll the throttle on to see what happens. No forward motion. Seems like there's no power to the motor, or the battery's too flat. I find somewhere to leave the bike under cover, and locked, overnight. Get a lift home.
As it's after 5pm on the east coast, the local dealer's shut, so I ring Zero direct. They tell me it's likely to be a short in the MBB (main bike board) & they'll send one out to me to fit myself. I get the bike home in the back of a friend's Honda Odyssey next day. Board arrived just after New Year, I got around to fitting it Jan 19 or so. Went in just fine.
But – the battery wouldn't charge. It turns out that as MBB fault left the battery completely discharged, and as Zero can't guarantee that a fully discharged battery will operate properly again, it's set up not to charge. So – the bike needs a new battery. But, it's a 2012 XU, and this is January 2014. Zero need to make a new battery for it, they didn't have any in inventory.
I was told I'd have new battery by the first or second week in March. I pinged Zero last Wednesday, got a phone call saying the battery was ready to go. Another phone call Thursday to let me know that someone would need to sign for the battery on arrival, so I'd get a tracking number by email.
I'm waiting on the tracking number.
Peter
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Seems like you got a lemon. That's a sad story, really. In US I think you have something called lemon law? Can you use it ?
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The BBB has a summary of lemon laws in the US. Each state has their own; for example, I thought most lemon laws do not apply to motorcycles. However, at least in Alabama all self-propelled vehicles that can travel on the highway are covered.
http://www.bbb.org/council/programs-services/dispute-handling-and-resolution/bbb-auto-line/learn-more-about-state-lemon-laws/ (http://www.bbb.org/council/programs-services/dispute-handling-and-resolution/bbb-auto-line/learn-more-about-state-lemon-laws/)
Keep us updated on the battery status.
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Thanks folks
Trying to make this bike work, if possible. My understanding is that we could go the lemon law route, but I'd really rather not.
Got the tracking number yesterday evening, should get the battery soon.
Will keep you posted.
Rode the Morini to work today. Glorious.
Peter
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Zero has gone the extra mile to fix issues under warranty with me, though at times they are exceptionally slow. Hopefully they will come through for you as well.
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Thanks protomech. Hopefully this will work out. By way of update - the battery arrived yesterday, I fitted it yesterday afternoon.
With the battery connected, the key in, and the key switch on off (or for that matter, with the key out and in my pocket, it makes no difference) - the lights all stay on - headlight, taillight, instrument panel all on. The blinkers / horn / headlight flasher all work as well. But - there's no power to the motor. The little red warning lights on the instrument panel do not come on. The green light indicating that the headlight is on - it is on. All the indicator lights on the instrument panel - for high beam or for the turn indicators - they work as well.
Switching the key to the "on" position, there's an audible click after ~ 3 seconds, and the red warning lights (little triangle with the ! in it, and the "fuel level" light) come on, then go off. The motor works when I use the throttle.
I'm not convinced that the battery charge level indicator works properly with the switch either on or off.
I chatted with Zero about this yesterday. Next step over the weekend is to disconnect the ignition switch to ensure that it isn't a dud. Given the click when I turn it to "on" I have a feeling that it's not, but it needs checking to be sure. A wiring diagram would be handy at this point...
Needless to say the battery's disconnected now so it won't go flat.
Coming up on a year's ownership, and the bike's gone <400 miles.
ever onward
Peter
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Further update -
So I just disconnected the ignition switch, connected up the battery - and the lights etc still come on. So it's not the nice simple option of the ignition switch.
Out of interest, has anyone else experienced this?
not totally thrilled
Peter
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New update -
Zero sent me a new DC-DC converter yesterday and I fitted it this afternoon. Finally - success. The lights go off when they're meant to, and everything seems to be working okay. Key works and everything.
chirpily
Peter
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Good! Let's hope it will be reliable now.
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Any update peter?
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Yep. Bike's running like a little gem now. My wife's started riding it to work again.
Fingers crossed, it's fine!
Peter
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Hmm - so a few days ago I took the XU for a spin. Turned it on, waited for everything to show up on the dash, rolled the throttle and - nothing. Turned it off, turned it on again and it went fine.
My wife's been riding it to work, and has had no issues so far. I just took it for a spin this evening to see how it's running. At one point, at an intersection, I switched to "sport" mode, went to take off and it kinda sputtered and did nothing. Rather like dropping the clutch and bogging the engine on an ICE bike. Happened twice, then ran fine. I played about with the sport / eco setting while riding and the problem didn't occur again.
Leaves me feeling a little uncomfortable. We'll see what happens over the next couple of weeks.
Peter
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Curious... what kind of range are you getting?
Hmm - so a few days ago I took the XU for a spin. Turned it on, waited for everything to show up on the dash, rolled the throttle and - nothing. Turned it off, turned it on again and it went fine.
My wife's been riding it to work, and has had no issues so far. I just took it for a spin this evening to see how it's running. At one point, at an intersection, I switched to "sport" mode, went to take off and it kinda sputtered and did nothing. Rather like dropping the clutch and bogging the engine on an ICE bike. Happened twice, then ran fine. I played about with the sport / eco setting while riding and the problem didn't occur again.
Leaves me feeling a little uncomfortable. We'll see what happens over the next couple of weeks.
Peter
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Range is ~ 45 minutes of suburban riding. Riding to work is ~8 miles through streets with speed limits of either 40mph or 25mph (so ~15 minutes). Return trip to & from work is no problems at all, probably 4 bars left on the battery indicator. For the rest it's used for running small errands that wouldn't allow my bike (Morini 500) to warm up properly.
hth
Peter
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So - an update.
Yesterday my wife had trouble starting - she thought maybe she hadn't got the sidestand up properly, nudged it, it worked fine. I went ride it this morning - to get this year's inspection sticker. Didn't go on the first turn of the throttle then went.
And then today, the light's started staying on when the key turns off. Again. It's intermittent & currently the Zero's in the garage. Right now, the light goes off with the key, but I've disconnected the drain side of battery anyway. The charging side is still connected, but I don't want to find the bike with the light on tomorrow morning.
So this time, the bike's worked from the end of the first week in April to the last week in May. Not very impressive.
rather irritated
Peter
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So - I'd reconnected the discharge side of the battery on Saturday and the light didn't come on at all, so Sunday I decided to take it for a short ride. Rolled it out of the garage, key in, wait for the self-check, then -nothing. Roll the throttle & the bike does nothing.
The system warning indicator was flashing 2 then 3, rather faint. Manual says that's a "controller area network" failure. On the bright side, the light is staying off when the key's off.
This is just ridiculous - this time the bike worked for 6.5 weeks.
Peter
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I wonder if a connector or board has become corroded. The Zeros are generally reasonably well-protected - I ride mine daily as a commuter, leaving it out in the rain. I've seen one problem (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2096.0) caused by corrosion on a board that was inadequately weather-proofed.
Unfortunately, I think chasing down this problem is going to require some serious diagnostic work and tracing out the cable harness, and I don't know if the dealer will be capable of handling it. You sound like you're technically inclined enough to disassemble the bike down to the cable harness; I'd recommend spot-checking all boards and connectors to see if there is any corrosion or debris that may be causing issues.
Shipping the bike to Zero may also be an option. If the bike is still under a warranty period, they may do this free of charge or at a reduced rate. Give them a call and see what they say. 1-888-RUN-ZERO (unfortunate name, given the amount of time your bike has spent running)
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Thanks protomech
That's an interesting thread that you linked to - appreciate it. And yes I guess I could do the tracing, but I'd rather spend time working on another bike that is likely to function for some reasonably extended period of time and that my wife will enjoy riding. I've got a second Morini 500 that's almost finished being refurbished and a 3 1/2 in bits that would do.
I've been in email contact with folks at Zero about it and will no doubt get some feedback very soon on where to go next. If I ship the bike to Zero it'll be to get rid of it.
on that happy note
Peter
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So - I had a chat with folks at Zero today. Their advice is that the main bike board isn't communicating properly with the battery management system. Suggestion was made to clean the connectors to the MBB, which I did, to no avail. Zero need to check the logs to work out where the problem is.
Peter
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How are they going to get access to the logs?
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They're have to send me out a cable - none available for at least 2 weeks apparently - or the bike would have to go back to the dealers.
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Latest update -
I contacted my dealer yesterday, giving them an update on the bike. I've been emailing their service dept with updates on the bike, but decided to call. The dealer acted quickly and I had a Zero rep on the phone with remarkable speed. Many thanks to the dealer for that. Some things from the conversation with the Zero guy -
1. I'm going to have to get the bike to the dealer for them to try to fix it;
2. The Zero rep also mentioned possible corrosion issues (more below);
3. Zero will pay for the bike's transport to the dealers, getting it back once fixed is my problem. This is probably something for other owners to be aware of.
I'm currently trying to organize the bike's transport as I have neither a truck / trailer nor the time for a 240 mile round trip, twice (assuming the bike can be fixed).
Later yesterday, the guy who owns the dealership rang me to apologize for what's happened with the bike, and to assure me that they'll do what they can to sort this out. Given that the bike's problems are clearly not the dealership's fault, I was impressed.
Back to the corrosion – one thing mentioned was to check the connectors leading from the battery output. So this morning, before heading out on the Morini, I hit them with some contact cleaner. The Zero then ran when I rolled on the throttle (in the garage, so for about a foot). The system warning indicator was still flashing 2 then 3. When I got home this evening, I took the Zero out – and it was dead again, didn't go. System warning still flashing of course.
So – I have no choice other than to get the bike back to the dealers. I'll sort that out and see what happens next.
wearily
Peter
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Short update.
Bike still dead, am having trouble finding someone who can do the transport for something resembling a reasonable cost.
I contacted Aaron from Zero who posts here, giving a potted version this XU's saga, and suggested - as we'd go the bike through the Cash for Carbon scheme and it doesn't owe us very much money - that we'd really like to just get the bike back to Zero and call it quits. Aaron passed my email back to Customer Service (being different from Customer Experience). I emailed them and am now waiting for their response.
Peter
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Update -
So it took ages to find someone to transport the bike. Finally did, got the bike to the dealers early October. Got it back today.
It needed a new BMS board, after which it still had connectivity issues. So the controller got reprogrammed, which cleared that error code. A short test ride led to another error code, determined to be a wiring problem. On fixing that, further test riding suggested no problem so the dealer - Great Bay - delivered the bike back to me today.
For those who came in late, this bike's had replaced:
the BMS;
the main bike board;
the DC-DC converter;
the battery.
My wife's comment - well that's about everything - led to my response - well, except the motor.
Which might seem like a joke, but when I tried the bike, the motor is making a new sound, growling would be the best description I guess. Sounds like you'd imagine a bearing going in the motor would sound. The growling continues for a second or two after I roll off the throttle. I pointed it out to the young bloke who dropped the bike off. Thanks to Great Bay for their attention and help.
I guess we'll see what happens next.
Peter
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Well I rode it to work today, and the growling sound has magically disappeared. It ran just fine.
fingers crossed
Peter
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Could have been the belt, they tend to make a variety of strange noises.
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Hi Peter. Glad to hear it's running well at last. May I ask if the replacements were covered under warranty?
BTW, love Morinis... Had a 500 and a 3 1/2 in my university days...
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Thanks Mike
Yes the replacement work was all covered by warranty. It's still working okay, so fingers crossed.
Yep, Morinis are sweet. Just finishing bringing a second 500 back to life, then I have a 3 1/2 (wire wheeled Strada) to rebuild. Fun little bikes.
And thanks Justin - as the sound sometime happened for a second or so when the bike was still, I doubt it was the belt, but hey, it's gone now.
cheers
Peter
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I have a little over 5k miles on my 2012 XU. Only problems have been fork seals, which took several attempts to correct, and, a flasher when I first picked up the bike, and, a broken rear fender
from no support. Removed it, rather than having it replaced. I think that it looks much sleeker this way. Other than that, the bike has been flawless.
After a firmware update, mine started with a ( possibly similar ) growl. If I give it just a little throttle, not enough to really get it to move, it seems to growl a little, but, once moving, no abnormal sounds.
It has been like this most of it's life. Hopefully, your problems are over. It really is a fun bike.
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Very informative thread, though I hate to hear about all the trouble. Have you had any issues specifically with the throttle intermittently failing on you, either at startup or while cruising? (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3203.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3203.0)) This has been the absolute only problem I've had at all with my 2011 XU.
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Hi ashnazg
Apart from the throttle failing completely once, it's been fine. No issues like you describe with the new throttle...
Peter