ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: ultrarnr on March 14, 2014, 06:16:19 PM
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Does anyone know anything about contactor errors? I had the Power Tank installed in my SR yesterday and went for a ride after I got it home. First thing I noticed was no regen either when braking or when closing the throttle in any of the modes. After about 68 miles and 24% charge left I was riding at 45 MPH and discovered I could not increase speed. It was like the bike was going into "Limp Home" mode. Speed rapidly decreased to 35 MPH. I pulled into a parking lot to assess. Charge level rapidly dropped to 20%. The System Warning Indicator is showing a Contactor Error. I will take it back to the dealer this afternoon but wondering if anyone knows anything about this sort of problem. Thanks.
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I had nothing but troubles with "contactor errors" on my 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S. I and a couple of electrical engineering friends took the entire bike apart looking for the problem and put it back together, without any improvement. The bike would run for a mile of two and then stop due to a "contactor error". After rebooting and let it sit around for exactly 3 minutes, you could ride off again. I think it was caused by a short somewhere, but we could never find it and the old-design Sevcon controller seemed to be programmed for this 3-minute stall.
With that off of my chest, I haven't had any running problems with my S's power tank - once things got sorted out with the "tank"'s BMS and a bent electric connector pin. Assuming that your SR was running fine before the power tank was installed, then the logical conclusion is that the technician made a mistake installing the tank or when shoving the electrical connectors together, thereby bending a pin and causing the BMS to get all nervous about the signals it is receiving.
This is my big gripe about Zero's Power Tank option. In my opinion the power tank should be installed at the factory and not by some random and perhaps not factory trained, IC motorcycle shop technician. I have been told that installing the additional module is relatively easy, but you still need to read all of the instructions and have certain electric assembly skills when performing this work. Not everyone is that well educated and trained anymore. ::)
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Ultranr,
Are we talking about a 2014?
2013 and 2014 models have different contactor issues.
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Ultranr,
Are we talking about a 2014?
2013 and 2014 models have different contactor issues.
If Ultranr's bike is an "SR" and has a "power tank", then it must be a brand-new 2014 Zero.
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This all turned out to be a battery cell imbalance issue with installing the Power Tank. My SR had been fully charged prior to taking it my dealer yesterday morning. When I loaded my SR I noticed the battery charge level was still 100%. Just surprised to see the Power Tank had been fully charged. When I got home I plugged in the internal charger anyway for about an hour before taking off on a ride. Despite being fully charged I guess there were cell imbalance issues that played out when the charge level dropped down to 24%. After I got my bike back home last night I plugged it in still on my trailer and it was fully charged when I took it to my dealer this afternoon. When I got the bike off the trailer at the dealer I turned it on and discovered that it would run just fine. I had emailed the bike logs to my dealer and Zero prior to leaving home. Once at the dealer they connected my SR to their laptop so Zero could connect directly into my SR and they were able to download more detailed logs than what you can email to them. Zero is still going over those logs but they don't expect any more problems.
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I had another Contactor Error yesterday. I took the bike out, after about 39 miles and having a 48% charge level stopped in a grocery store to get a few things and when I went to leave the bike would not run. Getting stranded everytime you go out is no fun. The bike was flawless prior to the installation of the Power Tank.
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After charging overnight the contactor error went away. Same as on Friday morning. With a friend close by on their cell phone I decided to go for another ride today. This time I stopped at the end of my driveway and turned the bike off. When I turned it back on it showed the contactor error.
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Between yours and Richard230's issues with the Power Tank, I think Zero might have been better off installing these at the factory.
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Between yours and Richard230's issues with the Power Tank, I think Zero might have been better off installing these at the factory.
I agree. But I am happy to report that my bike and its "power tank" is now working exactly as Zero claims. I rode it 90 miles today and ran the battery pack down to 25%. My ride was about half 55 mph and the other half at 35 mph. It included a 10-mile 2000 foot climb up a twisty two lane road at about at 35 mph, which used 10% of the available power. Since my power tank got sorted out by the Zero tech, I haven't had a single problem (other than a faint rainbow across the instrument display). So (knock on wood) I am very happy with the power tank option as it has greatly expanded my riding envelop to areas that I could previously only get to on my IC motorcycles.
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Ultranr,
I've got some good news for you.
I've been in contact with Zero about the chirping/squealing sound at strong acceleration and the contactor issue.
The found the cause of the contactor issue on mine and will address it with a firmware update shortly. The issue is a result of an initiation process taking longer than expected and the fix will likely just be to extend a time out. It sounds like you may have the same issue.
The noise during full acceleration at low speed is still not fixed but the dealership had the bike for over 2 weeks and drilled holes in it last time they had it so I prefer to have the noise rather than let them have another go at it.
If you want to hear what it sounds like then roll your bike backwards down a slope and then hit the throttle hard. That's what mine sounds like :(
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GNU,
Is your contactor error problem related to Power Tank installation? Also now with the Power Tank installed my charger is shutting off at 98%.
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Ultranr,
No, I've got no power tank.
It's an intermittent issue that comes and goes for me.
//Arvid
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I got a call from my dealer yesterday and they have determined the Power Tank unit that I had was bad and they are going to replace it. Will take another week to get a new Power Tank in.
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That makes two on this forum so far with bad power tanks
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That makes two on this forum so far with bad power tanks
Since the power tank seems to be the same battery module as used by the FX, I wonder if this problem is going to be an issue for that model? It would appear that Zero may have received a bad set of battery bms circuits from their supplier. ???
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Well it turns out the Power Tank was not the problem of the contactor error. My second Power Tank arrived yesterday and after installation and a test ride the problem remains. This has been going on now for over a month. This sucks.
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I don't have the "limp mode" issue but I do have the contactor error, it appears almost every time after I hit the key ON, except just after being disconnected from wall.
Why do they have such contactor error? Isn't a contactor supposed to simply close once powered? Or they measure the resistance at the contact before applying the full voltage?
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kensiko,
Do you have a Power Tank installed? My SR was problem free until the Power Tank is installed. When my first Power Tank was installed my dealer spent about a week with Zero going over everything trying to figure out what was causing the problem. In the end it was determined the Power Tank was bad. So another Power Tank was shipped out and as of yesterday the problem remains. I guess it is possible that the second Power tank could also be bad but I would really like to think that Zero tested it before it was shipped.
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No it's a 2013
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Isn't a contactor supposed to simply close once powered?
The Sevcon has a lot internal capacitors if the contactor just connect the battery to an "empty" Sevcon it produce an enormous current (it can damage the Sevcon).
The Sevcon has a precharge level setting and will only trigger the line conector when the level is reached. At the 2012 the Sevcon physically drove the Contactor coil. As much as I understand since 2013 every thing is handled through CAN communication. It will make timing much more complicated and the contactor is (maybe) driven from BMS or MBB.
I can see it with my 2013 FX - each battery has its own BMS (contactor) so it is really not easy to connect two powerful packs in parallel. Even when recharging it has to switch both pack on ( sometimes I can hear the relays clicking as they fight out which pack is more dominant :-\
When a 2013+ is connected to the grid the contactor is closed (and the Sevcon is powered on you will see if you move the bike the motor will try to find the encoder position)
This will be the exception in your case
It takes some seconds before the voltage of the Sevcon drops - If you disconnect and start it maybe has still a closed contactor and you have no problem. (actually I always take care to wait till the contactor has opened before I switch on the bike I feared it will not be good if it has an overlapping but I guess your bike prove me wrong )
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Thanks BSD, that explains how this can happen. To prevent the issue, should I turn the key ON with the emergency switch at off, wait then switch to ON?
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There is some kind of resister that was installed to reduce the amount of electrical noise in the system. Dealer is test riding the bike right now to see if it fixes the problem.
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To prevent the issue, should I turn the key ON with the emergency switch at off, wait then switch to ON?
I don't know for sure but I think the emergency switch will have no effect for the contactor. If your bike is on and you switch off the emergency switch - do you hear the contactor clicking?
For 2012 I know for sure the emergency switch, kickstand switch... are all read by the MBB and use one line to the Sevcon (Forward signal) to prevent the motor to move.
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The mystery of the Contactor Error continues. Just got a call from my dealer and the resistor did not solve the problem. So right now we are back to having no idea what is causing it. Think it is time for either Zero to send a team out here to work on the bike or maybe it is time to ship the bike back to Zero. Trying to remotely determine the cause of this problem isn't working.
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That sucks, sorry to hear it's still giving you trouble! I guess that's the price we pay as early adopters...
Hopefully they're able to get it sorted out soon!
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I'm sure zero won't let ultranr down.
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I have a new 2014 FX, came delivered with one bad battery (contactor error), after a fiasco I finally got a replacement battery. Then while waiting for rain to subside and my work schedule to return to normal, I get the 6000rpm recall. I performed the test on a stand and sent in my bike logs. My bike was gtg.. I still had 2 weeks of 6 day 12hr shifts to work. So get this, I get the bike out to ride and boom, my other, original battery fails with contactor error. So just sitting in the garage plugged in a battery goes belly up. Wtf!!??
I have only ridden my new 2014FX with both batteries and full power once since I owned it. My 2011DS never fails. But this new one has been messed up. I hope they discover the issues quickly, I really only ride in the dirt.
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Spires,
On my SR it doesn't seem to be the battery that is causing the contactor error. Without the Power Tank the bike was flawless. While it seemed obvious when the Power Tank was installed that it was the problem Zero shipped out another Power tank and the problem didn't go away. Right now Zero is sending a technician to my dealer to install a new controller and a few other bits. I should know either late today or tomorrow if this solves the problem. While obviously the SR and the FX use different controllers there may be similar components inside causing the problem.
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Knock on wood.....but my Zero S, with its power tank (which was replaced with a new one by the factory - no contactor error, just no power from that module), is still running perfectly and it also passed the magnet-hurling exam.
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FYI, I didn't have a contactor error after the firmware update, but had 1 "Key ON but no green light and no error code" event and 1 "Key ON and Temperature led ON".
The issue switched to another one. I will wait for future events. I don't mind if I can correct it by turning the key off and on. I hope Zero will be able to correct all those small issues. I bet there are only a few things that could cause this.
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ultrarnr, I hope it doesn't come down to returning to a dealer.. Its a 200mile round trip with a ferry ride back and forth.. Ugh.. And I have no truck at the moment haha.. Guess if the either of the new ones fail, I will have no choice but to borrow a truck and drive to a dealer. Wish they would just ship out some instructions and a new board to swap out, that would be soooo much easier. They are so easy to work on..
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Spires,
There is no single cause and single fix for the contactor error problem. The Zero rep had told my dealer that the resistor which was installed a week ago did fix a few bikes with this problem but not all of them. Others required the controller to be replaced which is what they did to mine today. Today they discoved an issue with the seat which was increasing electronic noise in the system so a shield of some sorts is being shipped out and should arrive tomorrow morning. This problem has been going on since the Power Tank was installed on 13 March. Sure glad all of this is covered under warrenty.
The challenges in identifying the problem makes it very unlikely you will be able to do it without taking it to the dealer.
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I'll bet Zero dealer technicians are getting a real education in Zero problem diagnosis and repairs. Whether or not they appreciate this education is probably debatable. ::)
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Richard230,
Yes they are. Mine basically gave up and told Zero they needed to send someone out to work on it and they did. There is a really big difference between working on a Suzuki or Yamaha and a Zero. There is only so much you can do on the phone. It is really interesting how Zero can dial into your bike when it is connected to the dealers lap top computer and try to sort out a problem. I don't doubt that this is effective in many cases but it wasn't enough in trying to sort out what was causing the contactor error problem.
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Really interesting, I'll be sure to share.
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I picked up my Zero SR today from the dealer and took it for a test ride. So far the contactor error problem seems to be fixed. Guess replacing the controller and all of the other work performed last week did the trick.
A few other notes from the test ride:
Averaging 55 MPH range with the Power Tank is about 96 miles.
No "limp home" mode kicking in at 7% charge, was able to do 55 MPH until about 3 miles from home when the speed limit drops to 35 MPH. About a mile or so from home the charge level dropped to 0%. When I plugged the bike in at home the Smart phone App showed 5% charge while the bike showed 0%. Charge time was 10 hrs, 38 minutes.
It has taken over six weeks to get this problem fixed. Too long. To Zero: You have no idea how close you came to losing a dealership over this problem. Waiting six weeks to send a technician to fix a problem is far too long.
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Zero says 106 miles @ 55 mph .. so that sounds fairly close.
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protomech,
I didn't think I would get that kind of range with the Power Tank. I live about an hour south of Raleigh, NC and terrain here is what I would call easy rolling hills. My guess is the Zero range numbers are for flat terrain. Like I am sure most people with EVs have done once or twice on the way home I was wishing I had turned around a few miles sooner than I did. I was definitely surprised to see no power cut once the charge level got down to 6%. I never had a problem doing the speed limit. Someone had mentioned in another thread about a firmware upgrade and maybe they did that to my SR. The "Limp Home" mode was definitely no fun and glad that feature went away. There were also some fields in the Smart Phone App that show charging data that were never available before and now are.
I had tested range before without the Power Tank and 70 miles was really max. I wasn't on the exact same route but close enough for planning purposes.
Also had the opportunity to pass a SUV and a bus that were doing 40-45 MPH in a 55 zone. The roll on speed of the SR is definitely impressive. Of course I am used to a V-Strom!
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Any temperature differences between the time you ran the route before the power tank and this most recent time?
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Good to know that everything seems fine now.
It was possibly me who told you about the firmware update.
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protomech,
I am sure it was a few degrees warmer yesterday compared to when I tested range before. That could easily explain some of it. Wish I had written down the Wh/mile rate from before to.
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Man, glad to hear it seems to be working properly now, but the whole thing really sucks. My SR should be here soon, and I'm really hoping to not have to go through stuff like this. I guess that's part of being an early adopter, but still no fun!