ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: GNU on January 22, 2014, 01:22:33 PM
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I received my Zero SR today!
It got delivered to the dealership this morning and after some begging the dealership agreed that I'd be allowed to pick it up later the same day. Initially they wanted to keep it for 5 days.
Due to miscommunication between the dealership and Zero the bike will have to come back to have the heated seat and the 12V outlet installed.
But back to the bike. In anticipation I already installed the Zero app on my iPhone. Pairing it with the bike was a bit tricky since the instructions in the app referred to how to get it set up on the 2013 model. (Getting Bluetooth activated using the mode switch is no longer an option). After realizing that you have to time turning the bike on and searching for new BT devices it was pretty straight forward.
The phone insisted a couple of times that I should download the app even though it was already installed and active. Once I told it to get stuffed a couple of times it seem to stabilize itself somewhat. I've got a lot more to say about the app but will save that for a later time.
The bike was almost fully charged when I got on it and I followed the recommendation to start out in Eco mode. Especially since the tires are brand new and may be extra slippery.
I stayed in Eco mode for almost 1 mile. During that time I enjoyed how smooth the power output was and how easy the bike was to maneuver in tight spaces.
I've ridden the 2012 S, the 2013 DS and the 2013 FX so the electric torque experience wasn't completely new to me. That said I still smiled every time I accelerated.
After feeling comfortable with the way the bike handled I switched it over to "Sport" mode... OMFGBBQ***!!!!!!!! This was what everything I had hoped it would be!!! The bike instantly turned super responsive to my throttle input and the acceleration was breathtaking!
My last bike was a 2007 Yamaha R1 with 189bhp. The best way I can compare the feeling of how they accelerate is to say that the R1 has lots of power at a very limited RPM. Meaning you have to slip the clutch just right for the maximum acceleration when you take of from a red light. With the Zero SR you just lean forward, open the throttle and let the adrenaline flow through your body as you are thrusted forward like a rocket! It's an amazing feeling!
The torque is not as raw as I'm used to from ICEs (Internal Combustion Engines) but even and well controlled. The result is that you can open the throttle wide open at a stand still and not get into too much trouble (assuming you're leaning forward and have good, dry pavement under your tires). This gives the bike a very mature feeling and the only downside is that it won't wheelie easily. In fact it won't really push you back on the seat until you reach 30-40mph.
I did some very unscientific tests of acceleration at different speeds and found that in sport mode (what's the name of those other modes again??) this bike accelerates just as hard from 30 to 40mph as it does from 60 to 95 (I didn't get a chance to try the top speed yet ::))
The build quality of the 2014 Zero SR is good. In fact it's a lot better than some other bikes I've ridden.
My fear was that it would feel like a limited production run of a refined prototype. Sure, there are seams that don't 100% line up and the boxy hollow plastic "tank" rattles in the same hollow way that it did on the 2012 S model whenever you run over a speed bump or a pot hole.
That said, the impression I walk away after my first 40miles of highway, surface street and city riding on my 2014 Zero SR is that it feels like a professionally and solidly built factory assembled product of a 3rd generation of electric vehicles.
Would I recommend this bike to friends? Heck yeah! If you have the money and you enjoy technologically advanced things. This is THE bike for you. If you're looking for a good economic investment and/or enjoy loud exhausts then I think you're in wrong forum :)
Speaking of noise level. The sound that this thing makes at WOT (wide open throttle) is AWESOME!!!! It wines like a futuristic turbine supercharger thingy. It makes people on sidewalks jump to the side and turn around whenever you accelerate hard after a red light :D
I'll post a videos shortly. Now I have to get some sleep so I can get up and ride this awesome machine again early tomorrow morning! 8)
//Arvid
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Great review. I'm not usually a jealous person but I will make an exception and say I hate you right now ;)
So...does it wheelie?
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You have the ZF11.4 model, correct? Does the 3.3 second 0-60 time seem accurate? Does it feel faster than the 2013 FX?
Zero claims only a small increase in sustained top speed, from 80 mph with the S to 85 mph with the SR. How easy is it to get the motor to overheat?
Hypothetical street race. Your 189 bhp R1 vs your 67 hp SR. Who wins from 0 mph? Who wins from a 30 mph roll?
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Thanks for the report GNU. I'll be looking forward to your future impressions of your new bike. I'll be getting mine one of these days, but I won't be reporting on top speed or acceleration, just comfort, handling, range and carrying capacity, mostly. ;)
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Great review!
this bike accelerates just as hard from 30 to 40mph as it does from 60 to 95
Yes that is what I discovered last fall, for the 2013 S of course. You don't get the most torque from start like ICE bikes, which reduces a little bit the fun factor, but the freedom of not having the clutch is such that it compensates.
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great review. Lucky guy!! Maybe time to organize a drag race... 8)
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Thanks for sharing! I'm absolutely jealous and am trying to convince myself that the torque from the S is enough for me. I'm quite curious as to what the SR sounds like, and hope to see videos soon!
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Brief video clip of the acceleration on a wet onramp:
http://youtu.be/uoelnFrf4gA (http://youtu.be/uoelnFrf4gA)
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If Zero has not limited it too much, your top speed should be over 100mph, also, if you swap the rear sprocket to the smaller one, you should have a top speed over 120mph. I use a smaller sprocket on both the front and rear to get a good acceleration yet higher top speed, along with custom programming to get over 130mph already.
Hoping to get over 150 mph with some help from Hollywood Electrics later this year. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch, heat will be the biggest issue.
-Brandon
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Thanks for the review!
Also, I think "OMFGBBQ" is my new favorite thing to type. Thanks for bringing it into my life.
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Electric Cowboy, Thanks for the suggestion. I use it in Seattle and often start from a stand still up a very steep hill, with a passenger so I need all the low end torque I can get.
BenSwing, OMFGBBQ could very well have been the internal code name for the SR during development :)
Protomech, It's hard to compare since it was a while since I tested the FX but I think the FX feels stronger from a stand still but the SR has a lot more power once the bike has past 30-40mph.
Hypothetical street race. Your 189 bhp R1 vs your 67 hp SR. Who wins from 0 mph? Who wins from a 30 mph roll?
Really hard to say. I think the R1 is slightly faster in both cases. But not by a lot and it takes some good clutch work on the R1. One big factor is that wouldn't be any shifting involved on the R1 since the first gear on the R1 gets you to 100mph+
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Had to Google OMFGBBQ ;-)
My brother-in-law lives in Redmond. I warned him to look out for a silent Red Rocket on the freeway.
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I've added another clip (soon have enough to make a video)
This time I wanted to cover the look and feel of the new dashboard.
The battery information is on the left side and the torque and power output and input on the right.
The lower part of the center of the console have two fields where the user can select what values to display. Such as Wh/mile and range.
Zero has selected to make motor temperature available but not ambient temperature. From a user perspective I think this is strange since there's already a warning system in place for motor temperature and the ambient temperature is more useful information in places where it gets cold or hot.
The speed and distance can be switched between miles and kilometers separate from switching motor temperature between Celsius and Fahrenheit.
http://youtu.be/TkcUQcGluyw (http://youtu.be/TkcUQcGluyw)
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Is there a new app for the smartphone on the 2014 model ?
Like the live view of the curves at the right site of the speedo :)
Is it possible to see the "power tank" room or the tank area ?
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Nop, the same app as for the 2013 models.
I'll take a picture of it today. There's some good and bad news related to it. The good is that it has a separate sturdy lock that uses the same key as the ignition. The bad news is that the stuff bay bag is attached to the sturdy lock with a shoe string.
I'm thinking about making a more secure bag for it. Something that would mate the sturdy lock to a metal or plastic part.
Anyone on this forum with 3D printing skillz that feel like contributing to a community made accessory?
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I've had my Zero SR for a few days now. I had a 13 S 11.4 that I sold the same day I got my new SR.
My impressions:
First off... wow.. the power and torque are fantastic! Everything I hoped it would be. Acceleration is great off the line and insane once moving.
Suspension is MUCH improved over the 13 S. Its still a bit stiff but much more compliant over bumps. Whatever they did to the damping settings made a huge difference. Still haven't played with the adjustments but I don't feel the immediate need to like I did with the '13. My Zero is used as a commuter so in order to get an acceptably comfortable ride on the '13, I had to soften the suspension more than I normally would. On the 14, the baseline settings seem pretty well adjusted for the bike and aggressive riding.
Brakes. The front brakes feel as good as the 13. Which is good since the 13's front brake had great feel and good stopping power. The rear brake, although a non known brand, is much better than the '13. At first, it was almost as wooden feeling as my 13's rear brake but it is breaking in nicely. I would still prefer a bit more bite out of the rear brake but it is better that the 13's.
Weight. The bike IS noticeably heavier than the 13. I can't imagine how it will feel with the heavy power tank that sits high up... will find out though... I'm waiting for the powertank to become available. Its not a bad thing though. I like the feel of the bike now. Makes it seem more like a real bike and not a toy. I don't really now how to describe it. But with the added weight and the better suspension, I am more at home on this bike than I was on the 13.
Dashboard. The new dash is fantastic! I absolutely love the customizable display. Right now, I have the "A" field showing me distance to empty and the "B" field is the odometer. It is changeable but since the labels of the different modes are so small, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it while moving. The mode switch for selecting ECO, SPORT and CUSTOM is a bit far from the thumb and I have to stretch to reach it. The guts for the throttle potentiometer is in the way but it is much better than having to remove my hand from the left grip to flick the switch on the '13. Wish list would be that all three modes (Sport, ECO and Custom) were adjustable and that regen had more range. Still wishing for a lever (where the clutch lever would normally be) that would be a variable regen.
Cornering. The suspension make cornering more confidence inspiring. But the bike now feels a bit slower to turn in. I would assume that the larger rear tire is the culprit. I might try a 130 rear tire and see if the quick steering comes back. I don't hate it. Its not bad or good, just different than the 13. I haven't really ridden the bike in the twisties yet, just commuting so I cannot say whether it is better or worse in the corners.
I am not sure if its me or if it has actually changed but it seems that my legs sit higher than they did on my 13. Are the pegs higher? It seems that the riding position has changed a bit and my legs notice.
I'm not getting as good battery life on this bike as I did on my 13. Gee I wonder why? Maybe I need to restrain my right wrist a bit more! The power delivery is so damn fun, I swear this bike is gonna be a ticket machine for me!
I have to say this. After getting my '13, I got interviewed by someone from Zero (I think it was Aaron). I spent about an hour explaining the things I loved and the things I thought could use improvement. The 14 addressed almost all of my concerns on my gripe list. Zero listens.
Overall, I am much happier with this bike. It feels more solid and upgrading to the better suspension and more power was way worth it for me.
Jose Soriano
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I want a DS-R for 2015 !!! It seems to me that the new generation of Lithium-something batteries is not yet ready for mass production, isn't it ? So maybe everyone will get more power in 2015 as a new year model will come, hahaha !!!
Laurent
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The Zeros from 2013 and forward is running great, so I hope 2015 will bring a new battery technology to the market.
200 km. or 124 miles or more would be the optimum for a "real World" range.
Today the real World range is about 86 miles (140 km.) with the power tank on a Zero S model 2014 ( calculated )
4-5 hours charging time and 124 miles on a charge - not impossible in the near future.
The problem with the batterys today is the weight VS capacity, hope they make a battery with 50% less weight and double capacity, could be really nice :D
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Jose,
Thanks for the comparison.
I'm going to try to soften the compression setting on my suspension. We got a lot of bad pavement up here and the stiff suspension is making my wrist tired.
Do you have a squealing metallic sound when you accelerate hard in sport mode?
I have that on my SR and I'm beginning to wonder if it's a motor bearing that can't take the maximum torque stress.
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I have a squealing metallic sound riding slow speed right now. Not sure exactly what it is but I suspect the brake pads when they slightly rub. Not horribly concerned yet. I'll see what happens after a few more miles of rear brake break in. After riding the 13 I personally think the 14 feels pretty good suspension wise but yeah, I can see you wanting to soften things up a bit.
Jose
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Thanks Jose!
So what does yours sound like when you open it up? The same as when accelerating slowly?
My rear break also squeaks a bit. But it's a higher frequency and not as loud as the acceleration squeal/screech sound.
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No discernible squealing when I hit the throttle.... hmmm.. but I ride with noise cancelling earbuds most of the time. The few times I rode it without the buds in, I didn't notice any untoward sounds during hard accelleration.
Jose Soriano
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Somebody got their review of their 2014 SR published on the Motorbiker.org blog and is now a star: ;D
http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/mini-review-2014-zero-sr---electric-powerhouse.htm (http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/mini-review-2014-zero-sr---electric-powerhouse.htm)
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Great job GNU! Good plug for the forum too.
How do you find the 0-40mph performance? The speed limit here is 40 so it's what I'm most concerned with. Could you afford to fit the high torque gearing option or would it become unmanageable?
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I got the SR too, and I do get the sound GNU is talking about. It seems to be changing with amperage being delivered to the motor, and yes, it only happens at a high acceleration throttle setting. I get it on ECO only if I start off with WOT. On Sport, I get it maybe with throttle open half way or more. The sound is like listening to an injured wookie crying.
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My 2012 makes the crying wookie noise. It's worse in the rain and if the belt is loose so check your tension.
I have ridden 3 different '12 bikes now and none of them sound the same. I expect the 14 bikes to be the same. Just keep an eye on it, warranty lasts 2 years so you have time to worm out any issues.
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Yep, both my 2012 S and the 2013 DS I borrowed for a month both made that weird noise under hard acceleration. I've always assumed it was *just* something that all Zero's did...
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My 2012 S is completely quiet - at least up to the point that wind noise overwhelms my hearing anything else. However, I do notice that ever since I tightened up my belt when I changed my rear tire, I do get a chassis rumbling between 5 and 20 mph that I didn't have before. So I do believe that belt drive tension can have an effect on noise and vibration.
However, my guess is that the motor noise is amplified by the cooling fins on the 2013+ motors and the noise likely is nothing to be concerned about. Since my 2012 bike doesn't have any fins and is air cooled by a fan, there is much less opportunity for it to resonate and generate sound.
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Thanks guys!
"crying wookie noise" is a perfect description of it :)
I think you're right. I'll just keep an eye (ear?) on it and see if it changes.
Feel much better about it now, knowing it's a normal sound and not something to worry about.
If it would have been an ICE there's no way I would have heard it at all :)
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Ha!... The description makes all the difference! Yes, I hear the crying wookie sound... To me it sounds like normal full throttle sound . . My 13 did it but not to the level the 14. More of a growl than a cry. So yes, I believe it is normal.
Jose
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OK. I had to wait until more Zero SR's were shipped, but I have to admit that I loved this motorcycle so much I bought one as well.
Since I have had a similar experience to the rest of you, I wanted to make sure everyone knows that especially on the very powerful Zero SR, the drive belt goes through an initial stretch within the first few hundred miles. A loose belt will produce the “honking†noise described in these postings. Adjusting the belt back to its specification should address this noise. After its initial stretch, the belt should be pretty stable for the remainder of its life, although it should still be checked occasionally, per the Owner Manual’s recommendations.
The team here at Zero really appreciates reading your posts. Keep them coming.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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I listened again today :(
It's a noise on top of the crying wookie noise. It's metallic and doesn't sound good at all. I'll talk to Zero about it tomorrow.
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Aaron,
You are getting quite the Zero Collection going! You are going to either have to get a bigger garage or sell that Yamaha VStar to make room......
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Aaron,
Thanks for your reply!
That explains the Wokie noise but not the screeching one. Unless that too is due to a loose belt.
I've attached a video recording that I did this afternoon. You can just barely hear it on the recording but in real life it's clearly audible when accelerating from low speeds.
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That is an interesting noise, but it doesn't sound like a loose bolt to me. I think I would place the bike on a shop stand and run the motor to try to get an idea of where the sound is coming from. A cheap mechanic's stethoscope would help to determine if the sound was coming from the motor or elsewhere. Maybe a brake pad is dragging, some chassis part or cable is vibrating, or the belt is vibrating due to it being too tight or having a misaligned sprocket.
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I've run your sound file through some audio processing tools I have to hand.
Looking at the raw data from your recording, there are four strong harmonic pitches when you hear the odd whine. (there are a number of other lesser harmonics that appear, I suspect these are related to the motor sound itself)
A lower rising pitch, two which are relatively stable, and an odd fuzzy mid range pitch sound.
The one thats the odd sound is a single very fuzzy mid range pitch sound, it does not appear anywhere else in the sonogram even at a reduced volume, so I'm not convinced that its something dragging as a result, otherwise I'd expect to see a trace of it in the background.
However fault finding from examing the spectral plot of some audio is imprecise at best.
* Interestingly the weird sound is actually dropping in frequency as the motor rises in frequency (rpm increases), so it could be some form of resonance in the motor however (resonances change or dissapear as RPM frequency changes). Interesting to note that it drops in frequency at the same rate as the motor appears to rise in frequency, not sure if that relevant though.
Given how quickly (and I mean immediatly) the odd sound disspears in the trace after the acceleration is removed from the motor, I'd start by investigating around the motor itself.
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Wow!
Thanks Justin. That's very useful observations.
I've emailed the same file to the awesome support folks at Zero.
//Arvid
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@GNU do you get a revving sound just as the throttle engages? It seems like the motor is just starting to engage and revving up but the bike doesn't move? I hope that is normal.
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You will probably find that noise is the controller. Sounds normal to me, my 2012 does it and I seem to recall the 2013 demo bike sounding similar.
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You will probably find that noise is the controller. Sounds normal to me, my 2012 does it and I seem to recall the 2013 demo bike sounding similar.
Thanks NoiseBoy I wanted to make sure that was normal. Although I wonder how the controller makes that noise, it doesn't have any moving parts in it. Does that noise go away after a while?
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@GNU do you get a revving sound just as the throttle engages? It seems like the motor is just starting to engage and revving up but the bike doesn't move? I hope that is normal.
Is it the same noise as the bike makes when you're pushing it without using the throttle? If so, it's the motor controller sending minuscule amounts of power to the motor to help reduce the coging friction in the motor when pushing the bike. It's makes a growling sound and you can feel the vibrations when you're sitting on the bike.
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No, it's a metal on metal kind of sound.
It's heard over the regular Wookie cry sounds :)
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This is what your warranty is for GNU. Go to your dealer if you are worried.
Nobody has told me if the SR will wheelie yet!
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Noiseboy,
It's covered under warranty but I want to use my bike. Not watch it sit in the shop for more than a month (like a fellow Zero owner is currently doing at the same dealership).
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@GNU do you get a revving sound just as the throttle engages? It seems like the motor is just starting to engage and revving up but the bike doesn't move? I hope that is normal.
Is it the same noise as the bike makes when you're pushing it without using the throttle? If so, it's the motor controller sending minuscule amounts of power to the motor to help reduce the coging friction in the motor when pushing the bike. It's makes a growling sound and you can feel the vibrations when you're sitting on the bike.
That sounds like exactly what it is. It makes that noise when I'm on the bike and pushing it with my legs and when I just roll the throttle and only sometimes when I push the bike backwards. I can't remember if it does that only initially or all the time just have to pay attention next time. I just wanted to make sure it was normal.
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Nobody has told me if the SR will wheelie yet!
I'm pretty sure that if it doesn't, it's only because the controller programming prevents it. That bike is extremely torquey.
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I don't believe the controller is preventing.
The point it the "weight" center off gravity is in the front of the bike.
With a "normal" street bike you will apply the clutch open the throttle and release the clutch - using the rotational speed (mass) to lift your front wheel.
http://www.gaskrank.tv/tv/supermoto/wheelie-3664.htm (http://www.gaskrank.tv/tv/supermoto/wheelie-3664.htm)
If I compare to my FX the point of gravity is more in the back and this little beast wheels like hell when opening the throttle and sitting at the end of the seat.
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It won't wheelie easily. The controller restricts torque output at lower speeds.
If you're comfortable standing on the passenger pegs and giving it WOT at 30mph I'm sure you can pull it off.
I won't even try.
Not having all the torque available at low speed is a bit of a bummer but it reduces stress on the drive train a lot so I get why they did it.
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How do you know you torque is limited at low speed?
Maybe it makes you feel wrong [ Power ~ Torque * RPMs ]. So you Horsepower are raise from 0 to MAX in a straight line till the motor reach the system voltage then it starts field weakening. It will always start with low power this is not limited it is the nature of a PMAC.
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How do you know you torque is limited at low speed?
Maybe it makes you feel wrong [ Power ~ Torque * RPMs ]. So you Horsepower are raise from 0 to MAX in a straight line till the motor reach the system voltage then it starts field weakening. It will always start with low power this is not limited it is the nature of a PMAC.
I believe the motor is a BLDC (BrushLess D C ) motor, which does in fact have maximum torque at zero RPM. I'm not an expert on Zero Motorcycles, but I've dealt with the BLDC controller on my CNC mill.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Brushless_DC_Electric_Motor_Torque-Speed_Characteristics.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brushless_DC_Electric_Motor_Torque-Speed_Characteristics.png&h=332&w=554&tbnid=Qopds_Y5pzVPNM:&zoom=1&docid=3aZ0_0Wv2ZY0YM&hl=en&ei=ZgxQU9r2M4SzyATp_4GIBA&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CD0QMygFMAU (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Brushless_DC_Electric_Motor_Torque-Speed_Characteristics.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brushless_DC_Electric_Motor_Torque-Speed_Characteristics.png&h=332&w=554&tbnid=Qopds_Y5pzVPNM:&zoom=1&docid=3aZ0_0Wv2ZY0YM&hl=en&ei=ZgxQU9r2M4SzyATp_4GIBA&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CD0QMygFMAU)
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The torque is limited by the controller, not by the motor design.
Yes it doesn't have brushes, but it's an AC motor.