ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Bdavis on August 21, 2012, 12:29:08 AM
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Zero and Carter power sports in Las Vegas win worst customer service award from me...
Less than 700 miles and my Zero S started to "glitch". The throttle stops responding without warning and needs to be turned off and on to work again. Less than 10 miles round trip to work and it happened 4 times. I emailed Zero who told me to contact Carter powersports to bring it in. In the email he said they could log in, fix it if it was software, and I would be out in less than an hour. I called carter, explained the problem and what the guy at zero said, and made the appointment. Today was my appointment. I made the mistake of trying to ride the bike in. After 3 "glitches", one in a busy intersection, I made it. After a 10 minute wait I was told Carter powersports does not have the terminal needed for zero to log into my bike. This is after I was told by both Zero and Carter to bring the bike in. No one bothered to check if they could do it. Let's say Carter is mostly to blame for this part. Now for Zero... I called Zero to Make sure what I was being told was true. After telling me the same thing I was then told carter will get the log in terminal friday. This is 10am Monday morning. My next question was why so long to ship from southern Californina to Las Vegas. I ship same day Las Vegas to Anaheim weekly, mail and freight. The customer service award response..."We are doing inventory." So I have to wait a week, maybe longer if the problem is hardware, without a bike I just bought because you are doing inventory. Thank you to both companies.
I typed this on my phone. Sorry for grammar and spelling errors.
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Sounds like you've got the same glitch many of us have, though you're seeing it much earlier than we have.
I really wish Zero had built a standard serial port or USB logging device to interface to the bikes. I think that is hurting them now - there's little way for customers to self-service the bikes (or in this case, even identify the specific fault), and they're still in the process of rolling out their dealer and service network.
Zero has a couple of customer bikes (including mine) at their HQ now, hopefully we should see a final resolution to the glitch soon.
It may be little comfort, but with shipping my bike all the way across the US, it'll probably be out for at least two weeks.
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No worries on the grammar but I definitely got your message! That's just plain bullshit! VERY expensive bikes from a new company and you were back burner'd... I'd be pissed.. I like the idea of an electric bike but I'm not liking this "glitch" thing and not a fan of being forced to dealers who have just jumped on the electric bandwagon and have no clue how to deal with servicing these bikes.
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I've just decided no bike for me until I see this "glitch" go away permanently.. I'm not wasting 50$ in ferry money to drag it 2hrs away to a dealer for service each time there is an issue..
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A 2011 demo might be a good buy. 3700 miles without a problem, and I run it WOT..70mph indicated...almost every day for a couple of interstate exits. The only time mine hesitates is when I forget to put the kickstand up and try to take off. LOL.
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I did not mind the glitch so much. Part of being an early adaptor of new tech. When it happened and I spoke to Zero the first time it sounded like the we're one the ball and ready to handle issues like this. My problem is when the time came that was not the case. I spoke to A manager at Carter power sports a few minutes ago. He is offering ways to make it up to me. But right now it comes down to a customer having to wait for zero to "finish inventory"
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I have an '11 DS all gutted out and slimmed down for the dirt.. Its great but only a solid 30miles range.. I wanted the ZF6 to mod the same way but have 50% more range. Or even a 2013 if it had more improvements.
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Thing is, they can't really do little improvements cause the range, acceleration, and top speed are still unacceptable, so they switched from a DC to AC motor, new controller, new batteries, etc. with 2012, but they still aren't there. It's not like a Ninja 250 that the S is often compared to. That bike is very dependable because they make little changes. This year they are going to FI but that isn't even new cause it's been in Asian markets for years now and they know it works well. They tweak the motor, but it's the same in-line 2 it's been for years. So they move the plastic around a little and call it re-designed and everybody wants one. I would not hesitate to buy a 2013 Ninja 250r. The Zero on the other hand is a different model from last year's even though it's still called the S or DS, and it was not tried and true. Just wait for the Empulse. It will have lots of glitches, I predict.
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I have heard about much worse customer service from BMW motorcycle dealers, the North American distributor and the BMW corporation. (A friend of mine who used to be uptight with BMW said that they feel that the customer knows nothing and should stop complaining all the time about their bike's faults. They really don't want to hear any complaints.) Most long-time BMW customers know never to purchase the first-year production of a new model. :(
I think Zero is doing their best, but they are a small company working with a new and relatively untested (in the field) technology. I think they will figure out the problem, but it is likely going to take time and if it is caused by a bad part, it will take more time to get a new part designed, manufactured, tested and distributed to their dealers and installed in customer's bikes. My guess is that once they have a verifiable solution to the "glitch" they will issue a formal NHTSA safety recall, as they did with the BMS waterproofing and the brake light switch.
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I have heard about much worse customer service from BMW motorcycle dealers, the North American distributor and the BMW corporation. (A friend of mine who used to be uptight with BMW said that they feel that the customer knows nothing and should stop complaining all the time about their bike's faults. They really don't want to hear any complaints.) Most long-time BMW customers know never to purchase the first-year production of a new model. :(
I think Zero is doing their best, but they are a small company working with a new and relatively untested (in the field) technology. I think they will figure out the problem, but it is likely going to take time and if it is caused by a bad part, it will take more time to get a new part designed, manufactured, tested and distributed to their dealers and installed in customer's bikes. My guess is that once they have a verifiable solution to the "glitch" they will issue a formal NHTSA safety recall, as they did with the BMS waterproofing and the brake light switch.
While I'm a big fan of Zero, I have to say I'm disappointed but not surprised with the way the company is managing this bug.
The Zero S "glitch" reminds me of a company that I used to run US sales for. The technology was bleeding edge and horrifically unreliable at first. I was at times astounded at the lengths customers went to to work around bugs that ruined dozens of hours of work, often right before an important delivery deadline. The reason customers put up with crashes and corrupted data while our engineering team chased down one bug after another and shipped out patches is that even with these inconveniences the product was still waaaaaay better than the alternative old technology. It had a high return on investment of time even with the bugs.
That is not the case with a Zero. A motorcycle is not a commercial product. It's for pleasure, not making money. The Zero has advantages over an ICE bike but these all fade to nothing if the Zero is less reliable than an ICE bike.
Worse, the "glitch" is dangerous. It can potentially leave you without power in a life-threatening situation that you need to accelerate out of.
The reason I'm not surprised that Zero and its dealers don't have their sh*t together on a procedure to address the "glitch" problem is that Zero is still working out a process to diagnose and fix problems and communicate this to customers. In my opinion, that's why they hired a new CEO from a big company, to work that stuff out.
Zero still has the best product out there. The company is small and delivers relatively tiny cash flow to dealers for now. How to get them to focus on Zero for sales and maintenance?
Zero should select a small cadre of premium dealers and promise to build Zero's business around their business. Forget the big dealers that are making their bones off BMW and other high end, high margin brands. Go for the small, intelligent dealers who need Zero for differentiation.
That's how to build Zero and fix problems like the "glitch".
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I did not mind the glitch so much. Part of being an early adaptor of new tech. When it happened and I spoke to Zero the first time it sounded like the we're one the ball and ready to handle issues like this. My problem is when the time came that was not the case. I spoke to A manager at Carter power sports a few minutes ago. He is offering ways to make it up to me. But right now it comes down to a customer having to wait for zero to "finish inventory"
Bdavis: My bike was at the dealer for nearly a month for the glitch. The dealer scratched up the panels (they did offer to get me new panels). I got only one call from them in that entire time; the rest of the calls were me trying to find out what the heck was going on. Now that I have the bike back, the 'gas gauge' is not working properly (At least I can still ride it!). They said they are "looking into it". That's been a week ago Wednesday.
I agree with Richard230 - I think Zero is doing their best; but there are several factors:
(1) Zero sold alot of 2012's. There was a post of a press release showing incredible growth over last year.
(2) The 2012 bikes aren't as reliable as they hoped. (2 recalls, looks like a third on the way)
(3) The dealer network was supposed to take over a majority of service headaches - but they aren't ready/capable yet.
(4) The most recent problem, 'the glitch', is still being investigated, so not much can be done yet anyway.
Hopefully, Zero will weather through this without too much brand damage. The the 2012S/DS is really a fantastic bike, even if I knew about all this in advance, I think I would have bought one anyway.
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I haven't ridden my DS for a couple of weeks now due to a job change that put work out of the bike's range. I'm waiting for an official solution to the glitch in hopes I can get all existing and latent problems with the bike fixed in one trip to the dealer.
I still like Zero, still think they have the best product out there in this niche, and realize I'm an early adopter. I still wish them the best. But to delay a repair a week because they're "doing inventory"? That's pretty lame, and something that a customer shouldn't hear.
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I decided to give Zero 24 hours before I made any decisions on what to do about this. This way I had time to sit back and thing, but also to give both companies a chance to redeam themselves. So far, Carter Power sports has made an offer of some free services, but not a word from Zero. I hated doing this, but I filed with the Better Business Bureau of Nevada, and about to with the BBB of Southern California. It was surprising, and a bit scary, how fast the local Fox news channel contacted me about doing a negitive report on a "green" company.
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"We report, you decide" has a mountain of wriggle room in it for presenting bias.
I hope some extra squeak gets Zero moving on your behalf. They're busy, but that's no excuse for ignoring customers.
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I decided to give Zero 24 hours before I made any decisions on what to do about this. This way I had time to sit back and thing, but also to give both companies a chance to redeam themselves. So far, Carter Power sports has made an offer of some free services, but not a word from Zero. I hated doing this, but I filed with the Better Business Bureau of Nevada, and about to with the BBB of Southern California. It was surprising, and a bit scary, how fast the local Fox news channel contacted me about doing a negitive report on a "green" company.
No such thing as bad publicity. Go for it.
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FOX news! I wouldnt talkto them. They are srewing reality living in the stoneage supporting oil companies. So make up ur mind here.
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I decided to give Zero 24 hours before I made any decisions on what to do about this. This way I had time to sit back and thing, but also to give both companies a chance to redeam themselves. So far, Carter Power sports has made an offer of some free services, but not a word from Zero. I hated doing this, but I filed with the Better Business Bureau of Nevada, and about to with the BBB of Southern California. It was surprising, and a bit scary, how fast the local Fox news channel contacted me about doing a negitive report on a "green" company.
No such thing as bad publicity. Go for it.
I think there are some politicians that might disagree with that statement. :o
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Stay away from fox news. They are part of the corporate machine and they will kill anything Green!
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It's a Democrat/Republican thing. I will go out on a limb here and suggest that most people with electric motorcycles are liberals, independents, and libertarians. Most of the people in big trucks that try to run you off the road would be Republican. Amazing how the service thread turned into politics at the mention of Faux News huh? It's downright electrifying and politically charged.
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It's a Democrat/Republican thing. I will go out on a limb here and suggest that most people with electric motorcycles are liberals, independents, and libertarians.
Perhaps, but a few of us are just motorcycle-enthusiast techies who believe, from an engineering basis, that electric is the drivetrain of the future. Even if they're more conservative/libertarian than liberal :)
Most of the people in big trucks that try to run you off the road would be Republican. Amazing how the service thread turned into politics at the mention of Faux News huh? It's downright electrifying and politically charged.
Threads have a way of doing that. I have the aforementioned big truck, too, but usually I'm merely holding my ground against soccer moms on cell phones in just-as-big SUVs.
As for Fox News, they're no worse than the other outlets. One must get reporting from several sources these days and try to extract the truth from it. At least Fox provides some contrast :)
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I would call or write Richard Kenton (Zero service manager directly) richard@zeromotorcycles.com. I have dealt with him several times on my Zero S and he tends to make things happen. You may have already dealt with him and had a different experience. There is not a dealer in my market area and I am basically on my own for repairs, recalls, etc. I have had my bike for over a year and now have almost 6K miles on it. I have had a few service issues including a motor replacement that kept me off the road for three weeks. However, I see some of this as the cost for being on the leading edge (and sometimes bleeding edge) of new technology. I would encourage you to hang in there as when they are running well, there is nothing better than a Zero for my needs.
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Dang. Motor replacements? That's a couple now I've heard of. That's a big deal. I mean if you have to replace a motor outside of warranty, that is going to be about $2,000 with labor. I would expect the motor at least to be bulletproof. I remember an old fan motor that my parents had in their store. It was used all summer long. I remember asking about it once and my dad said all he ever did was oil the thing and it was over 30 years old. Different application, but really a motor should not be going bad.
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Are these motors completely sealed off from outside rain, sand, dirt, or whatever?
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Not on my 2011. It is not only readily visible, but has holes in it, presumably to allow cooling, but perhaps to allow water to drain and natural drying. I'm sure everything inside is insulated, but no it is not sealed from the elements. The 2012 has a different motor though. Generally, it is almost impossible to keep moisture outside of motors so it is best to allow them to drain and try to protect against corrosion. At least that is the case with e-bike motors. Best to never get them wet I think, but that can be a little difficult and they can still get condensation even if you never ride in the rain or wash your bike. It is a problem.
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Here is a photo of the motor powering my 2012 Zero S. As you can see, water can flow in and water can flow out - along with air and anything else attached to it. I assume it needs all of those holes to keep the motor cooled. I understand that there is a fan inside the motor that provides forced cooling.
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The 2011 motors were Agnis, right? Enclosing them may have been necessary to protect the brushes from the elements. The 2012 are permanent magnet AC motors and therefore have no brushes. That and the increased power (and concomitant need for more cooling) may have influenced the decision to make them open and ventilated.
That said, the glitch-related motor issues are with the position encoder, not the power parts of the motor itself. My motor shaft is rusting, but the bike still runs fine.
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The 2011 agni motor isn't enclosed. It is almost entirely exposed with holes all around the housing. Here's a photo of the motor with the holes. http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=60 (http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=60)
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Update....
No one has contacted at all from zero or cater powersports, so i called both today. Zero finally sent out the computer to the dealership so they can log in and test it. Of course the computer doesn't work, and now NOTHING is being done. I am not sure what is worse, lame excuses after lame excuse, or being ignored.
Will I recommend either company to a friend? No.
Will I talk a friend out of giving either company business? Yes.
As I said before, this is not about the glitch. This is about how I am being treated as a customer. I enjoy riding the zero a lot, but excuses and ignoring are not proper customer service techniques. I am starting to hope the glitch continues so I can return under the lemon law.
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I would call or write Richard Kenton (Zero service manager directly) richard@zeromotorcycles.com. I have dealt with him several times on my Zero S and he tends to make things happen.
Have you contacted Richard Kenton?
If the computer they sent doesn't work they'll have to send a new computer out.. but they should be keeping you clued in with what's going on so you don't feel like you've been dropped.
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Well, I just returned from getting a $600 $oaking from my BMW dealer for the 24K mile service on my F650GS. They had the bike in the service department for just under 3 hours and charged me $400 in labor and $200 in parts. :o
The service manager mentioned that the shop had tried out two Brammo Enertias (I assume) before they went on sale at Best Buy and both bikes refused to run while they were there and the Brammo rep couldn't get them to run either. Apparently, that gave the shop a bad impression about electric motorcycles and they decided not to sell them. This subject came up because when I arrived there was a Vectrix scooter in front of the service department plugged into their exterior wall outlet. Guerrilla charging I guess. ;)
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$200 labor per hour? Did they hire four burly men to hold up the bike while a skilled technician worked on it?
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Bdavis -- you might check out your state's lemon law and see if it applies to motorcycles. In some states, if your new vehicle is out of commission for thirty days during the warranty period, they have to refund your purchase price or give you a new vehicle.
Good luck with getting the problem resolved!
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$200 labor per hour? Did they hire four burly men to hold up the bike while a skilled technician worked on it?
That is the result of the "flat rate" service billing system around here. They charge a flat rate for each type of service performed, even if it only takes half the time to actually do the work. Great for the shop and the technician's income, not so great for the customer. As near as I can tell, all of the retail dealers play the same game.
I used to know a BMW motorcycle technician, who has since moved out of the state to another shop. During the mid-2000 heydays of big M/C sales, he told me that with the flat-rate system and working 6 days a week, he was making over $100K a year. That was at a labor rate of $100, which was split between him and the shop. I think the split was something like 60% for the shop and 40% for the technician. Published labor rates are $100 an hour for the Japanese brand shops and more than that for BMW shops in the Bay Area, but with the flat-rate system, actual hourly labor rates are hard to figure out.
I just read in City Bike that my Zero dealer is now the only Japanese motorcycle dealer in the San Francisco area, since the San Francisco Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki dealer closed. They just took on the Suzuki brand and now have all of the major Japanese brands, including Zero. The article said that their business has increased 50% since the SF dealer closed. Their service department must really be busy, especially as the working area is not much larger than my garage. I have a feeling that it is going to take quite a while to get an appointment to have the "glitch" recall performed when that finally occurs. In the meantime, I am happy that electric motorcycles don't need $600 servicing - which was sort of the point of my post. ;D
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Yep, lemon law here is 30 days out or needing them same repair 3 times within the first year. I have owned the bike 2 months. A week of it in the shop with no contact.
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I would call or write Richard Kenton (Zero service manager directly) richard@zeromotorcycles.com.
Thank you for the tip. I did contact Richard and he seems to not only be on top of this, but keeping me the loop on what is going on. It sounds like after all of the excuses they finally started to work on it. First they said it was the bms that needed to be sealed. Water getting to it could cause the cut out. I never road in the rain. Condensation is a possibility, but living in the las Vegas desert, I wouldn't count on that. After I pointed that out Richard said they are going to keep it longer to,run more tests and maybe have to replace the motor.
Richard did tell me that to make sure it doesn't happen to anyone else they are contacting all of their dealers and sending out the equipment they need if they do not have it already.
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Glad to hear you're at least getting updates now.
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I got the call yesterday from the dealership that they were finished with the repair and I could pick it up. According to the paper work the only thing they did was the facotry recall repair. The only reason it was not done before was because the dealership was waiting on the parts.
I was able to ride it about 3 miles from the dealership to my work with no problems. After work I made it home with out a glitch. Hopefully that was all they needed to do.