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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: ZeroSinMA on August 12, 2012, 11:33:22 AM

Title: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: ZeroSinMA on August 12, 2012, 11:33:22 AM: No one reports good product reliability. We all expect products to work perfectly. Here on these forums we hear mainly from owners who have experienced problems and glitches so we have no idea if these folks are the exception or the rule.

This poll is to help us establish how many of us have experienced reliability problems.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: BSDThw on August 12, 2012, 01:23:51 PM: Good Idea,

but without the mileage it will not work well.

I would answer now "Great" but
mileage are only at 2100km(1300miles) so maybe the Glitch will show up in some weeks :'(
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: Richard230 on August 12, 2012, 07:56:15 PM: My 2012 Zero S has been running perfectly. It only stalled twice at a stoplight early on, that was fixed by Zero with a new throttle assembly and I have had no issues with my bike since then, other than with a failed turn signal flasher unit. I have 2K miles on my bike.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: ColoPaul on August 12, 2012, 08:20:33 PM: I went with "Decent", based on the fact that the Zero's are a "bleeding edge, low-production-almost-still-a-prototype" unit.
if 3-5 years from now, when Zero has 4x the volume, and they are still have multiple recalls and glitch problems, I would put "Terrible/Unacceptable".

At this moment in time, my main complaint is not that my bike failed after 1800miles/10weeks, but that it's been in the shop for almost a MONTH and no one (at Zero or at the Dealership) seems particularly concerned about it. >:(

This is made worse by the fact that this board is full of anecdotal posts of "legendary" Zero service - flying an engineer out to look at your bike - showing up at your house with a loaner bike while they take yours in for repair - overnighting parts to get you back on the road - etc. I know I can't expect this level of service - but what I've experienced isn't even 'average'. Just crappy.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: kcoplan on August 12, 2012, 09:44:20 PM: Hey, ColoPaul -- you might check if your state has a Lemon Law that applies to new motorcycles. In NY, if your new vehicle is unusable for more than 30 days (cumulative) during the mfr warranty period, they have to give you a new one or buy it back at full price (unless you have over 12k miles, then price is pro-rated).

Not saying you want to play hardball, but if they are not being responsive you might let them know what your rights are . . .
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: ZeroSinMA on August 12, 2012, 10:20:30 PM: I'm on my second Zero S. I put 3000 miles on the first and so far 2000 on the second. So far I have not experienced a single problem of any kind with either bike. That's one reason I started this poll. Is my experience exceptional or typical and there are a few lemons that get a lot of play here?

That said, the 2012S has two holes in the lower front wheel well right behind the front tire, one for visual access to the charging status lights on one side and to the power plug on the other. In heavy rain water pours off the tire into the holes and onto the power controller. Duh.

I tape them up before I ride in the rain. I suppose this is why I've never had any rain related problems.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: Richard230 on August 13, 2012, 12:49:34 AM: I do the same thing. If I have to ride on wet streets, I place some clear package sealing tape over the inspections openings.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: ZeroSinMA on August 13, 2012, 01:01:12 AM: Quote from: Richard230 on August 13, 2012, 12:49:34 AM
I do the same thing. If I have to ride on wet streets, I place some clear package sealing tape over the inspections openings.

(http://i50.tinypic.com/fc2eu.gif)
$14,000 bike needs two $0.01 pieces of tape over inspection openings or motor cuts out in the rain.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: ColoPaul on August 13, 2012, 04:46:38 AM: Quote from: kcoplan on August 12, 2012, 09:44:20 PM
Hey, ColoPaul -- you might check if your state has a Lemon Law that applies to new motorcycles. In NY, if your new vehicle is unusable for more than 30 days (cumulative) during the mfr warranty period, they have to give you a new one or buy it back at full price (unless you have over 12k miles, then price is pro-rated).
That's funny. 4 weeks will be this coming Thursday; and 30 days would be Saturday. The guy I talked to at the dealership yesterday thought they would get the issue resolved this week sometime. I wonder if there's a correlation? :D (Probably not, just funny).
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: JohnSki on August 13, 2012, 05:03:20 AM: I can not say that I read anything about someone with a Zero XU, X or MX having any problems. Is it possible that these bikes are totally reliable? I know there are some Zero XU owners here but I donâ€™t know about the Zero X and MX owners. Maybe they donâ€™t have the inspection holes in the same place.

My feeling about the waterproofing of a controller board is that it should NEVER get water on it to begin with. Water on a circuit board with electricity will quickly cause the corrosion effects mentioned. This is serious because it is actually eating the metal etch and bridging (depositing) new conductive paths through this water. The power that the board draws should easily stop any condensation problems.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: ZeroSinMA on August 13, 2012, 05:57:52 AM: Quote from: JohnSki on August 13, 2012, 05:03:20 AM
I can not say that I read anything about someone with a Zero XU, X or MX having any problems. Is it possible that these bikes are totally reliable? I know there are some Zero XU owners here but I don’t know about the Zero X and MX owners. Maybe they don’t have the inspection holes in the same place.

My feeling about the waterproofing of a controller board is that it should NEVER get water on it to begin with. Water on a circuit board with electricity will quickly cause the corrosion effects mentioned. This is serious because it is actually eating the metal etch and bridging (depositing) new conductive paths through this water. The power that the board draws should easily stop any condensation problems.

Add road salt for winter riders here in New England and you have a forumla for disaster.

Zero should take a cue from the auto industry. All electronics belong in a water tight container and the circuit boards inside the sealed container need to be conformal coated, just in case.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: kcoplan on August 13, 2012, 05:36:08 PM: Quote from: ColoPaul on August 13, 2012, 04:46:38 AM
Quote from: kcoplan on August 12, 2012, 09:44:20 PM
Hey, ColoPaul -- you might check if your state has a Lemon Law that applies to new motorcycles. In NY, if your new vehicle is unusable for more than 30 days (cumulative) during the mfr warranty period, they have to give you a new one or buy it back at full price (unless you have over 12k miles, then price is pro-rated).
That's funny. 4 weeks will be this coming Thursday; and 30 days would be Saturday. The guy I talked to at the dealership yesterday thought they would get the issue resolved this week sometime. I wonder if there's a correlation? :D (Probably not, just funny).

Not every state lemon law covers motorcycles, though, so it could just be a coincidence. NY added motorcycles to its lemon law in 2004.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: protomech on August 13, 2012, 08:19:34 PM: I think the two major problems we've seen (BMS faulting, motor glitch) need a lot of miles and riding in inclement weather to discover. I imagine that some ZF9 and ZF6 bikes are putting on significantly more miles than the ZF3 bikes (X, XU, MX). Whether the lack of ZF3 problems is due to low mileage or a more reliable design, only time will tell.

Both the motor controller (under the tail) and the onboard charger are rated IP67 (ingress protection against dust and water), which SHOULD make them proof against splashes and heavy rain. The actual charger socket is not protected, but splashing water in there when you ride only becomes an issue when you want to charge afterwards.

I just keep a towel nearby and wipe out the socket, but certainly some type of plug to cover the holes would be handy.

Also, IME Zero's service is quite good, but their communication ranges from okay to subpar. The reliability of the 2012 bikes has so far been pretty bad, viewed in any context but the electric motorcycle bubble - but hopefully Zero is learning from the design flaws and early service issues and improving bikes to come. I believe once the early problems have been ironed out that the bikes will be pretty reliable -- the BMS fault is more a design oversight than a major component failure, and I suspect the motor glitch will turn out to be a bad $0.01 component somewhere in the system.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: ZeroSinMA on August 13, 2012, 11:35:19 PM: Quote from: protomech on August 13, 2012, 08:19:34 PM
The reliability of the 2012 bikes has so far been pretty bad, viewed in any context...

It's too early to conclude this. The poll so far suggests decent to good reliability not pretty bad. Keep in mind that the poll includes all Zero's since day one, including early model years when Zero's bikes were basically prototypes. But with only 7 votes at this time I don't think we have statistically meaningful data yet. Also we can run the poll again in a year on the 2012's only and see if reliability is worse over time as more miles are put on the 2012's.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: protomech on August 14, 2012, 01:20:31 AM: A significant number of users (>> 1%) reporting problems with frequent intermittent losses of power is BAD. Of the primary bike controls (acceleration, braking, turning) I'd rather lose acceleration first.. but any of those 3 basic controls are critical for safe riding.

offthegrid and I both have bikes with high mileage, we're seeing the same sort of problems. (mine cropping up in earnest around 4k miles, offthegrid around 6k miles)

As far as I know we have some of the higher mileage 2012s, we're both in southeast US, we both ride in the rain and heat.

Oobflyer may have more miles than me, he had some early issues but they may have been all resolved at this point.

Zero probably has long term test bikes with many more miles. Different climate, perhaps different usage patterns.

It's possible that a lot of 2012 owners have as many or more miles, and happy with their perfectly operational bikes and aren't being driven to bitch online : )

Maybe we should distinguish between reliability and design issues. Lack of environmental protection for BMS sensor inputs is a design flaw leading to a fault. Motors that suddenly burn up, forks that fail, battery cells that poof or vent are not necessarily design flaws but more reliability issues with select components. Aside from some leaking fork seals, I think the components in the S have been pretty solid.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: ZeroSinMA on September 04, 2012, 12:11:13 AM: This poll is closed. Will open a new one to get an update on status that includes suggestions made in this one.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: Electric Cowboy on September 04, 2012, 02:08:43 PM: so far my new 2012 S ZF6 bike is completely reliable 2000+ miles in 3 weeks, lots of canyon riding, and general HARD riding, but with controller modifications to the size 4 for better harder performance.
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: manlytom on September 04, 2012, 02:28:04 PM: better performance, does that cut range ?
Title: Re: Glitch or No Glitch?
Post by: Electric Cowboy on September 05, 2012, 07:44:29 AM: Not that I have noticed during normal riding. Probably on the highway. Just means I need better throttl control.