ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: gadget123 on February 12, 2012, 11:27:59 AM
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do you think the zero x or mx is worth buying this model year (2012) even though they have brushed motors? i just ordered the zero x and now i am wondering if i should just just change my order to the ds since i want off-road capabilities and i want something on which i can commute about 25 miles roundtrip. but mostly i want the newest technology. if they are most likely replacing the brushed motors with the new brushless then i would rather wait.
anyhow, does anyone have an opinion on the 2012 zero x or mx...especially regarding the motor?
thanks
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If you plan on using it to commute, I would recommend the DS, not only for the brushless motor but for the extra range.
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IMHO the off road capabilities of the DS are limited, the two machines are very different, the X is confidence inspiring, light and very quick to change direction and the road bikes are cumbersome by comparison. I would strongly urge you to try both before you commit money to them, even if you have to travel. You will see that the X is a 7/8th size bike and the DS is a full size bike. A test ride is worth a thousand words...
It is interesting to note that Zero have not updated these models with the brushless motors and you are right to question as to why this is? Maybe they have unintentionally made the X and MX slightly obsolecent by not including them in the upgrades. maybe also ask what spec Brammo are running with if and when they produce their bikes. If you can wait till 2013 then check out the BRD offering which will be at the 2012 Powersports Dealer Expo in Indianapolis, February 17-19, as it definately has a brushless motor and looks to have a spec that will trump both Zero and Brammo.
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I agree with what zap mc says in that they are very different machines. If you plan on using this as only an off road bike, the Zero MX would be the best choice. The Zero X is geared a little higher for better top speed but is less torquey off the line and has the light kit installed for street use. The Zero DS is a bit heavier, 100lbs heavier for the ZF6 and 140lbs for the ZF9. The ZF6 would be sufficient for you purposes and it does pretty well off road although if you don't plan on using it as a commuter, the former would be the better choice.
If you do choose to go with the DS, the chain conversion offers more options to regear and give you more punch off the line and will make it a more competent off road bike. There is also a Fox shock available for better off road performance depending on your needs.
The brushed motor works great off road. Problems with the brushes arise after sustained high speed riding which is almost never an issue with off road use but can be a problem for highway use.
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Either go for the DS or wait for a brushless X/MX
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thanks for the opinions!
i wonder if anyone knows if the 2012 x and mx have new motors this year vs the 2011's? and does anyone have any idea how much the battery weighs? i want to get an extra one and was wondering if i could carry it on the bike sometimes on long rides.
i went into the dealer today to look at the ds. after talking to one of the sales guys i am now leaning towards just going with the x. i really want to ride trails and eventually hit small jumps. plus, that youtube video of the zero x going through water really impressed me. i just hope that i don't have to do any maintenance on it for a couple of years...i hope that is reasonable to expect. i plan to ride this bike over a hundred miles a week nearly every week on just commutes to work (on streets only...and through la jolla so i don't expect to ever really have to go faster than about 40).
i guess the reason they didn't put the brushless motor on the mx/x is because of the air scoop/cooling fan (or...whatever that large contraption is on the bottom of the bike) would make it impossible to ride on a track (though they do have it on the xu). i am pretty sure that they're gonna swap the motor next year for the mx/x...maybe if they stick with the same frame again next year then they'll have an upgrade kit.
zap mc -- i like the look of the BRD bike. but i am nervous about the company. they seem kind of small. at least zero has more cash so i feel better knowing they'll be more likely to be around for at least 2 years to honor the warranty. also, the BRD bike is full-sized. i like that.
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The 2012 X and MX use the same axial flux motor, possibly the same as the 2011 MX. The 2011 X uses a lower power radial flux motor.
I can't find an official weight claim, but the 2012 ZF3 battery pack should weigh around 45-50 lbs.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-x/features.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-x/features.php)
Fueled by a Z-Force™ lithium ion power pack and now featuring the same performance motor as the Zero MX, the Zero X delivers incredible torque from zero RPM. This is made possible by the powertrain’s ability to efficiently dump an incredibly high amount of power as soon as you twist the throttle.
33% more overall power with a top speed of 56mph
Increased torque and broader power band for much stronger acceleration
Sustains higher power output for longer durations
New motor integrated Z-Force Air Induction System:
Allows for increased motor performance during aggressive riding
Enables more energy output for longer durations
Powerful, low weight and compact motor
Performance settings for more and less aggressive riding (Level I and II)
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for radial flux and axial flux could we take that to mean Mars motor and Perm/Agni motors?
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I believe that's correct. From a preview of the 2011 Zero lineup (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2011-zero-electric-motorcycles-launch-90578.html):
[The MX] shares the battery with the X/XU, but instead of the X’s Mars motor, it gets the Agni motor from the heavier, more powerful S/DS bikes.
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do you think that the employees of zero don't answer questions on this forum because they feel that they would be inundated with questions once they answered one? or do you think that it's their company policy not to answer because you never really know what an employee is going to say?
just wondering...cuz i see only a handful of posts on this forum every day (since i first knew about this forum...5 days ago).
is the electric motorbike market kinda small?
either way...thanks for all the info! i hope i made a good decision buying this bike.
and regarding the weight of the battery: wow...45-50 lbs!!??? that seems so heavy for such a small battery. i don't think i can lug that around with me. maybe if i had a long road commute then i could strap it on the bike but i really doubt i'll do that. i wonder if i'll need two batteries when i do trail riding or will one be enough?
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I don't know about other companies, but BMW seems to have a strict policy that no employee of the company, the distributor, or a dealer post anything on an internet forum. I find it interesting that I usually find out about new BMW motorcycles and their price and specifications before my dealer does.
As far as electric motorcycle owners being few and far between, I wouldn't be at all surprised. But I sure would like to know how many Brammos, Zeros and EMS/Native GPR-S have been sold over the past 4 years - and how many are still running. ::)
Anyone have any idea? I sure don't.
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well, anyhow, i think i went off-topic. i apologize.
opinions wanted on whether i should just stick with the 2012 zero x as a daily commuter/weekend trail bike. or should i wait until brammo or another manufacturer (like BRD) comes out with their brushless motor bikes? i really do like the look and specs of the BRD but as i wrote earlier: i am nervous about the company not honoring the warranty because they are no longer in business. and i don't think i want to worry about an untested "gearbox" like the brammo is using on their dirtbike.
the x cost me $12,800 after tax and dealer fees. my dealer can't even tell me if i qualify for the tax credits (they also can't really tell me much of anything about the bike...which is way disappointing...). i kinda don't think the zero x has the "mileage" to qualify for a rebate from california or the federal gov't. does anyone know about this? if so then i gotta buy another battery to qualify. this will put me at over $15k. that's the same price as the BRD bike which has better specs.
i guess, basically, i don't want to buy something now and realize that if i had just waited a few months i could have gotten something much better.
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My understanding is that only the Zero S and DS qualify for the California rebate. I think the rebate is geared toward rewarding street riding/driving and not off-road "recreation" riding.
As to your other questions, I don't think there is enough information out there regarding the future Brammo products. When they come out, my guess is that they will be superior in performance to the current Zero models, but Brammo has not announced the final specifications for the models, nor when they will be available for purchase.
In my case, I figured that a bird in the hand was worth two in the bush and bought the Zero. I just didn't want to wait.
I think if you can wait for a new EV of any type, you will always get a better product, due to the rapidly advancing technology. But if you keep waiting for the next greatest thing to come along, you might never end up buying anything. Eventually, you have pull the trigger and only you can make that decision.
One other comment that might interest you: I just mailed in my CA rebate application and noticed in the application that you are signing a contract verifying that you agree not to sell your EV for a period of 3 years. If you do, you may have to return the rebate. The rebaters will be watching your DMV vehicle ownership records each year to make sure that you still own the bike/car. Something more to think about.
As I was typing this, the news on my radio was reporting that gas prices could reach $5 a gallon this summer in the SF Bay Area.
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how will you feel if you buy a zero x brushed model and they release a brushless model next year? Which i think is highly likely, why would they not? it will give them something to fight back against Brammo with.
I find $12 800 an eye watering amount to pay for a zero X! they used to be about $9500, and second hand demo models can be bought for about $5 500 and you would still have a year on it but the obligation would be on you to get the bike or faulty parts to them if anything went wrong.
you really MUST get the dealer to loan you a bike to try it out, if they cant then there is something wrong.
"zap mc -- i like the look of the BRD bike. but i am nervous about the company. they seem kind of small. at least zero has more cash so i feel better knowing they'll be more likely to be around for at least 2 years to honor the warranty. also, the BRD bike is full-sized. i like that."
likewise the BRD will be about $15 000 i think but you will get a bespoke built bike for that but it will be a first generation machine so expect some teething issues. The company looks more user friendly and Zero has now become more corporate and has to answer to investors so lack flexibility on a small level. The BRD looks like it has been in gestation for a while now and they have managed to survive with no sales whatsoever. I find the zero x now crude and slightly dated in comparison as its a 2007 design mostly and after a while the suspension really limits the bike as you get more adventurous, and you end up wishing it was slimmer, it will never hang with a full size bike whereas the BRD looks like it might which will take the scene to a whole new level.
Did you look at the KTM? That will be well engineered and the suspension will be good.
I would not bank on Zero being here in 2 years time, even though they have taken $23M in funding this was years ago now, and their weekly wage bill is massive ( 80+ people?) plus the R&D bill and the inventory carried to make the bikes, and sales volumes have not come anywhere near making the company even remotely profitable. 200 bikes sold at $10000 is still only $2M. I personally think they are releasing bikes now so they have some money in the bank to continue and enable them to leapfrog Brammo to the pent up demand, Good strategy.
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If they change the motor, you will pay for it. Prices do not seem to be going down on new models. LOL
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The last time I heard, Tesla still hasn't made a profit and they have been working on their vehicles for years. Trying to establish an entirely new technology in the automotive field takes a lot of cash and a lot of time. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. Just ask Tucker. :o
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Gadget123, I have a street legal 2011 Zero MX with 28 miles on it. Practically brand new. I'd be willing to part with it for much less than what you're paying for that 2012. If you're interested you can email me at harlan at hollywoodelectrics.com
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Stick with Zero I know they stand behind the product.
They supported my bike 100% to keep me up and running. I had a 2009 Zero X for about a year before I sold it and went back to gas. I enjoyed the experience and rode the bike in every offroad
environment to find it's limits. Your expectations can't be the same as for a gas motorcycle of course or you will be disappointed. I would suggest taking a serious test ride to answer some of your questions on which model to purchase.
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thanks for the input!
harlan --> thanks for the offer on the 2011 but i think i'll stick with the 2012. i really want as much range as possible. my entire day is 25 miles so i will need the 2012.
zapmc --> i like your thoughts on BRD. i really do like the look of their bike. and you make a good point about zero not being around in 2 years as well...the ktm bike: i don't know..i don't love buying a bike from a company that is not 100% electric right now. unless i hear that the bike is by far the best then i think i would prefer to spend my money on a US-based start-up. i just appreciate that a few people took a chance on my company a while ago so if it ever works out i always try to return the favor for another start-up. i didn't realize that zero had 80 employees...seems like a lot but they probably know what they're doing. they seem to be the only company i ever heard of in the electric vehicle space that actually hits their launch dates. as for the test ride on the zero -- i kind of don't have my motorcycle license yet. i haven't ridden in 20 years. i basically am getting this bike because one of my resolutions for 2012 was to try moto cross. i was actually looking at buying an electric scooter for my commute to work. i saw zero on a financial news piece and looked them up. i saw the zero x and thought that it might suit both of my needs. then i found this forum...which has been pretty helpful for me. i wish my dealer was more informed. like i wrote before, my dealer told me i get a rebate of $2500 from california and the federal gov't. i think it turns out that i get nothing at all for the x. no one there knew very much about the bikes even though they have been selling them for over a year. the reason i paid $12,800 is because the bike was about $10k and the dealer fees and tax made it $12,800. they told me i'd get $2500 back so i thought it was not too bad. i wish i had another option for a local dealer but there is only one in san diego. the zero line is definitely an afterthought for them. i am certain they don't know even know about this forum. lol...they told me to direct any questions i had about zero to their facebook page, instead of trying to get the answers for me.
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Gadget123, if you don't like the idea of buying a KTM because they also build gas bikes, why would you buy an electric bike from a gas dealer who doesn't even have enough interest in the product to get his facts straight? And $12800? You've got to be kidding me! What kind of extra fees is he adding? Even with tax, shipping, setup fees, and registration, our price is more than $1000 less than that.
If you want a better deal, we're in Los Angeles, barely a couple hours from San Diego. We also are currently offering a promotional financing rate of 0% with zero down payment for 12 months or 4.99% with zero down payment for 48 months.
Come up this weekend and we'll even let you test ride one.
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would love to buy at these rates and then the tax incentive ....
25miles. My 2011 S does this happly day in and out (rountrip).
just like any high tech item - get on with it and don't look for the new latest for a while --- they all will be better -- but rather the benefits now than in 50 years or so.
;)
T
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A 2011 demo might be the best deal...perhaps $3,000 or so off list price.
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manlytom --> i agree. i am just gonna buy the 2012 zero x.
Harlan --> if my dealer somehow drops the ball then i will come to your shop and get it. i am supposed to pick it up saturday but i haven't heard from the dealer so i kinda doubt it'll be in then. as for why it cost me $12,800....i don't know. i know it makes me sound stupid but i don't have a detailed invoice..just a receipt for $500 for the deposit and $12,317 for the remainder. do you know if the x is taking more time to deliver? the dealer has the ds and s in stock but not the x or mx. regarding your ktm question: i feel like i am buying from zero more so than my local dealer. also, do you know if the 2012 zero x qualifies for any rebates? and if so, how much?